Talk:Digital hardcore

Notability issues

I've removed the notability tag, and provided a reference to an interview in which Alec Empire talks about the genre as being a distinct entity from the record company. Also, this article has been through AfD for notability, with the result being keep (see above). Just googling around for this indicates that it is in popular usage, only that it's too underground to easily find encyclopaedia-grade references for. -Kieran 20:33, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

One more thing: There are over 100 articles that link to this page [1], as well as versions in the German, French and Polish Wikipedias. It's pretty hard to argue that this isn't notable. -Kieran 20:42, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

One reference to a non-independent source doesn't look sufficient to establish notability to me: it's on digitalhardcore.com, after all. It's not a matter of whether or not "digital hardcore" is notable, but whether a reader can verify that it is notable via the independent (of the subject) references given in the article. This article still fails that requirement, I think, badly. I think from the WP point of view, "too underground" means "not notable". On the other hand, "digital hardcore" gets 230,000 google hits: isn't there one independent reference on the genre? Here's an article from The Village Voice: Michel, Sia, Only Death is Quiet, New York: Nov 25, 1997. Vol. 42, Iss. 47; pg. 73, 1 pgs. It doesn't say much, but it is independent, and it uses the phrase "digital hardcore" without caps twice. I guess that's something. Doctormatt 21:59, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Merge

Could this be merged with Industrial hardcore? Are the two genres the same or similar enough to justify a merge, or should they be kept separate? Mostlyharmless (talk) 05:30, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

They should be kept separate. Digital hardcore fuses electronic music (industrial, techno, drum and bass etc) with hardcore punk. Industrial hardcore takes no influence from punk whatsoever. ...Superfopp (talk) 13:40, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Don't merge, these are totally different genres. Digital hardcore often sounds more like punk / gabba hybrid, often not having any influence from industrial whatsoever.michaelb ^{Talk to this user}

Breakcore

If this article should be merged with anything, it's breakcore, which immediately evolved out of digital hardcore ... and still exists, unlike digital hardcore, which is basically a mid- to late-'90 phenomenon. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.191.153.112 (talk) 14:49, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Again, kept separate. First off, digital hardcore still definitely exists (see discography of Rabbit Junk, see DTrash Records, etc). Secondly, although I'd say breakcore is more related to digital hardcore than Industrial hardcore is, it's still a totally distinct genre, sharing more similarities with IDM, and, most importantly, none with punk. Digital hardcore rarely deviates from a riot-driving 4/4 beat, while programming breakcore is usually a more-syncopated-than-thou-art competition. I dunno, the two genres seem totally different to me. michaelb ^{Talk to this user} 20:33, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

No! There was a discussion about 'IDM' on the breakcore page, albeit a short one... I mean what is 'IDM'? Is it Boards of Canada's trip-hop/downtempo? Aphex Twin's glitched out jungle or ambient techno? Is it Squarepusher's jazzy jungle or Kettel's acid techno? It's a void term. Furthermore, breakcore isn't about the crazed out beats, it's about the breaks and the kicks. It can go from reall simple looped breaks with some distortion and hardcore kicks drums to crazed out drumbeats with snare rushes and God knows what else. Hell, Praxis and Bloody Fist are mentioned on this page, which are primary labels in breakcore. People seem to have forgotten that breakcore is/was largely shitnoise (I mean that affectionately, of course) ever since the series of Venetian Snares releases back in 2001. I'd suggest a merger with breakcore, with Digital Hardcore as a breakcore subgenre (along with Raggacore). Yeah, perhaps 'Digital Hardcore' was established as a 'genre' before, but it's now more of a biiiig bleep on the breakcore radar more than anything and the breakcore scene doesn't really consider it a separate entity either. PS. Breakcore can easily have distorted guitars and all that stuff. Drumcorps.. Sangre, Hecate, Bong-Ra to name the big names.... It's not something that characterizes breakcore, meanwhile, the distorted guitars could characterize the subgenre, much like how ragga vocals and rhythms define the raggacore subgenre, but not breakcore as a whole. Subgenres are a box within a box and all.--Seeofseaof (talk) 03:14, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

Origins of digital hardcore, and source challenge

Superfopp has made some alterations to the infobox "stylistic origins", removing riot grrl and thrash metal, and removing all the citations (which are to an interview published in 1995 in a Japanese magazine). He claims that "the source does not say this". I don't know if he owns the Harder Than the Rest compilation, in which the interview is reprinted, but it does, in fact, say (immediately after the shout-outs to Praxis, Cross Fade, Drop Bass, Bloody Fist, etc.) "They're (sic) some good records from british guitarbands (sic) like Huggy Bear, Bikini Kill or Pussycat Trash. Skaterpunk, Death/Speedmetal and japanese mangas are also a big influence for us." Also, in case it comes up, my source for industrial rock is in the same interview: "I remember that we were listening as teens to industrial punk in the 80ies cause we hated the disco stuff".

The riot grrl appreciation is clearly audible in the music, as Hanin Elias's shouting style and lyrical approach is indebted to the movement; Kathleen Hannah also collaborated with ATR on 60 Second Wipeout. Alec Empire also said "I was totally into the riot grrrl music, I see it as a very important form of expression. I learned a lot from that, way more maybe than from 'male' punk rock." This is quoted on the riot grrl page; the source is [2]. Other digi-core groups also have clear riot grrl influences, especially EC8OR.

The thrash metal influence, as well as being directly stated in the aforementioned interview, is clearly audible in the Slayer-sampling "Into the Death". ATR, of course, also collaborated with Slayer on "No Remorse" (on the Spawn soundtrack). I really don't see this as a nod in the direction of a minor, leftfield inspiration -- the DHR groups really did see Slayer and others of their ilk as inspirational, on the same level as Bikini Kill and Bloody Fist Records.

Later, 79.211.127.178 added Breakcore, Electro punk, and Synthpunk to the origins. Breakcore makes no sense at all, as if anything it's a derivative of digital hardcore (ATR starts up in '92, breakcore doesn't exist until at least '95). Electropunk and synthpunk are the same thing, and while I do think they have some distant influence on the DHR sound (especially the Neue Deutsche Welle groups), there's no source for that, and I think the influence is stronger from what J. Amaretto calls "industrial punk" (which I take to be industrial rock). Aryder779 (talk) 14:28, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Although I don't own Harder Than The Rest, I was able to find a copy of the interview here. The person being interviewed is J. Amaretto, who helped found Digital Hardcore Recordings.

After being asked "are there any other acts, producers or labels you like?" he mentions three hardcore punk bands that were part of the riotgrrrl movement – Huggy Bear, Bikini Kill and Pussycat Trash. He then mentions four genres – speed metal, death metal, skaterpunk and industrial punk.

Now, does this mean we should regard all these genres as prime influences on digital hardcore? My answer is no. First, Amaretto was not a member of any digital hardcore band and couldn't speak on behalf of those bands. Second, he is being asked about his personal taste in music, not what influenced the genre as a whole.

Regarding riot grrrl – I don't feel it necessary to include that as a stylistic origin. Riotgrrrl is a movement rather than a well-defined genre. Riotgrrrl differs from punk/hardcore punk in terms of lyrics only. However, I won't object to listing it under "other topics/see also".

Regarding thrash metal – ATR were indeed fans of Slayer, and they sampled a Slayer riff in one of their songs. However, they also sampled James Brown and Nirvana. Should we thus include funk and grunge as influences on the entire genre? Of course not.

Regarding breakcore – I won't object to listing it under "other topics/see also", but listing it as a derivative really requires sources.

~Asarlaí 23:26, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Hi,

I see your point about Amaretto not being a member of any digital hardcore band, but I don't think that he was being queried as to his personal tastes. I think the idea was to convey the kind of music that was inspirational to digital hardcore musicians, and Amaretto was an insider informant on that. I think he can be seen as a spokesperson, an "embedded journalist" of sorts, and his statements of taste generally indicate the feelings around DHR. Amaretto's comments throughout the interview -- which are heavily polemical -- bear this out, and the fact that the interview was chosen to be packaged with a representative label compilation indicates that at least Empire and probably other DHR musicians endorsed the viewpoints Amaretto was articulating.

Now, I'm conceding that I've had to interpret what Amaretto appears to mean, by reading "Death/speed metal" as "Thrash metal", "industrial punk" as industrial rock, and "Huggy Bear, Bikini Kill and Pussycat Trash" as riot grrl. This is interpretation, not original research, and I think that we can agree in good faith that this is supported by the source.

As to riot grrl: Even if I agree that riot grrrl is a "movement rather than a well-defined genre" -- which is by no means an uncontroversial statement-- I don't see why that would bar it from being described as a stylistic origin. Isn't punk rock a "movement rather than a well-defined genre"? For that matter, isn't digital hardcore a "movement rather than a well-defined genre"? Riot grrrl is a style of music; some of its innovations are conceptual or lyrical and others are musical. It had a very strong influence on digital hardcore -- as is implied by Amaretto, and directly stated, in no uncertain terms, by Alec Empire (I'll repeat: "I was totally into the riot grrrl music, I see it as a very important form of expression. I learned a lot from that, way more maybe than from 'male' punk rock." [3]). I think that this is strong evidence that it almost makes more sense to list riot grrl as an influence than hardcore punk. Do we have any evidence at all, other than the name "digital hardcore", to indicate that DHR took any influence from hardcore punk, as such? I don't hear any influence from Misfits, Bad Brains, Minor Threat, or Black Flag in ATR or any other DHR band or producer. I do, however, hear a lot of riot grrrl influences. Riot grrrl is not just hardcore with feminist lyrics. There's also a distinct vocal style (which is audible in Hanin Elias' work) and subtle influences from thrash (short song duration) and from post-hardcore, post-punk, and garage rock. These musical influences are very different from other styles of hardcore -- you can immediately tell the difference between riot grrl and youth crew or crust punk or thrashcore or metalcore, and not just because it has female vocals. Fugazi's song "Suggestion" has a feminist message, but it's clearly not a riot grrl song. Walls of Jericho and No Doubt are punk bands with female singers, but that doesn't make them riot grrl.

BTW -- I put a notice on Talk:Riot Grrrl to see if anybody over there could help us shed any light on that concern. Aryder779 (talk) 00:57, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Thrash metal: I see your point. If you really feel that the thrash metal influence is non-notable, I guess it can be removed, though I do think there's evidence that thrash metal was a prime inspiration over at DHR. I'll remove it from the box.

Breakcore: I don't have a source that straightforwardly says "breakcore is a derivative of digital hardcore". However, is it really controversial that Alec Empire's Destroyer album, and Christoph de Babalon's If You're Into It I'm Out of It, were foundational for breakcore (if not the first examples of the style)? I have sources indicating that Alec Empire is a godfather of breakcore of sorts (and I'll supply them if you want), and the labels indicated by Amaretto as in league with DHR (Bloody Fist, Cross Fade, Drop Bass, etc.) are all widely recognized as early breakcore labels. It seems straightforward to me -- can you indicate why you're inclined to be skeptical?

Thanks for your well-reasoned argument and your interest in these issues. Aryder779 (talk) 00:16, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Well it now seems we're in agreement on most of these issues. You've made some very good arguments regarding riot grrrl and you've also added another source to support it. Thus, I withdraw my objection to including it.

Thanks. Aryder779 (talk) 02:22, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

However, im not convinced that breakcore is a derivative. Although some sources consider Alec Empire a pioneer of breakcore, his music was always experimental. He may have been the leader of a digital hardcore band, but as a solo artist he switched between styles. As for DHR being "in league with" breakcore labels, I see that as irrelevant, because:

-DHR and the other labels signed artists belonging to other genres too.

-Independent record labels tend to do that anyway, especially if their artists have a similar sound.

Well, what do you mean by "similar sound"? What I think is at issue is this: What is digital hardcore? By which I mean, does digital hardcore only describe bands that sound like ATR and EC8OR? (e.g. shouted, declamatory punk vocals, guitar riffs, distorted breakbeats) Or does digital hardcore include albums like Alec Empire's The Destroyer, Nic Endo's Cold Metal Perfection, Christoph de Babalon's If You're Into It, I'm Out of It, and Shizuo's Shizuo vs. Shizor? I tend to believe the latter, if for no other reason than that I've never heard any source directly pigeonhole the nature of digital hardcore in the former, more restrictive definition. After all, ATR's first track from '92, ""Hetzjagd Auf Nazis!", doesn't sound like the punkier, rockier style they pursued later. It sounds like a noisy hardcore techno track. ATR themselves played shows of straight-up noise music. When they did that, I don't think they broke from digital hardcore as a genre, just because they weren't doing the punk rock/d'n'b hybrid they're most famous for. What I'm saying is that digital hardcore can mean "shouted punky vocals with distorted breaks", but it can also describe a wide variety of styles of noisy, breakbeat-inflected electronic music -- and that's what clearly evolved into breakcore. Aryder779 (talk) 02:22, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Now, on to the "other topics/see also" section. I don't understand why industrial metal, industrial hip-hop and power noise are listed. In my opinion only breakcore and synthpunk should be there, due to the connection discussed previously. What's your view on this?

~Asarlaí 01:38, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Power noise was listed for the simple reason that it's another form of extreme dance music that evolved in Germany in the same time period (and later there was some convergence, in the breakcore era). I'll go delete it now, because I'll agree that it's not terrifically relevant. Industrial hip-hop I think has a pretty good reason for being there, because Alec Empire recorded material in that vein (Low on Ice, for example), and collaborated with Techno Animal. So they seem to me to be related genres. Industrial metal is included because there's some crossover (as detailed at Industrial metal#Crossover with other genres) -- Trent Reznor used to talk up ATR all the time, Empire remixed Rammstein, Hanin Elias went on to work with Pigface, ATR collaborated with Dino Cazares from Fear Factory, etc. Aryder779 (talk) 02:24, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

You seem to have more knowledge of these related genres, so I'll take your word for it. I think it's safe to say we've reached a consensus on what genres should/should not be listed. However I will move those related genres into the "see also" section, as the infobox is a bit big. Thanks for taking the time to discuss this.

~Asarlaí 02:43, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Deal. Pleasure discussing this with you. Aryder779 (talk) 02:58, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Metal??

Heavy metal (and specifically thrash) is a huge part of digital hardcore and Atari Teenage Riot is it not??? Not the biggest part certainly. More punk and techno influences, but metal still plays a part in this genre I believe. 165.196.83.23 (talk) 18:42, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

I agree, which was why thrash metal was initially included in the "origins" box. Please see the above discussion for a dissenting view. If you agree with me and the sources I've provided, perhaps thrash metal should be reinserted. Aryder779 (talk) 18:00, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

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Rabbit Junk can't be considered as Digital Hardcore

Rabbbit Junk is sonically in the same genre as Fear Factory rather than with EC8OR, ATR or Machinegirl, That's why I deleted those references to Rabbit Junk. Most of the Digital Hardcore "bands" has, at least, Gabber or Breakcore sounds in most, if not all, their songs. Rabbit Junk isn't doing that (and it's great, but not DH) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.40.230.116 (talk) 13:47, 12 February 2021 (UTC)

Major cleanup

Hello fellow editors! I've done some major cleanup to justify the removal of the "citations needed" box. Please do not make uncited edits/additions/removals. Feel free to discuss here. Thanks! --Chrisbkoolio (talk)

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