Talk:DeMolay International

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Adding to Secret Societies[edit]

DeMolay IS a secret Society! From the article "Secret Society":

Alan Axelrod, author of the International Encyclopedia of Secret Societies and Fraternal Orders, defines a secret society where: 

   * The organization is exclusive
   * It claims to own special secrets
   * It shows a strong inclination to favor its own

Yes, demolay is exclusive Yes, we have secrets Yes, Comradeship is the strongest cardinal Virtue!

the DeMolay article SHOULD be merged into Category:Secret Societies

201.92.47.14 (talk) 01:59, 17 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

DeMolay itself is NOT a secret society. DeMolay, along with every other Masonic body, is a public service organization that has a few secrets to distinguish members. DeMolay, for example, has only 2 secrets. Any adult is privy to this information if they would like. The only group that these 2 secrets are held from are potential members (young men between the ages of 12-21). I would hope that a fellow brother would be able to tell the difference. 72.81.98.135 (talk) 02:02, 30 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I myself am a sitting Senior Counsilor and can tell you that we are an orginiztion WITH secrets, but we are not a "secret orginization". You can find out how any and all members are, where we meet, and when we meet. As for the "two secrets", there are more, but this is just to see who a member is, and who isn't. "The orginization is esclusive"... This is not TOTALLY true. In my time we have NEVER turned away prosect. If you are 12-21, believe in asupreme being, and yourinvestigation is clean, you are IN. "...strong inclinaion to favor its own." I would like for you to be specific in that. Are you saying we favor our members? OR our orginization, because I asure you, every thing we do is forthe good of the Order. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.187.168.26 (talk) 00:58, 23 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Recent Edits[edit]

The information retracted from the article is available from almost any source, including, but not limited to, installation programs. Seeing as how installations are public ceremonies, the officers of a chapter would not be protected information. To quote the editor, "...grew it would."

Thank you to whoever fixed this article!

Name[edit]

Additions wanted[edit]

I would like to see the sponsoring body's functions, the advisory board's functions, the Dad Advisor's functions, what it takes to found a chapter and maintain one, a list of offices and how the officers are chosen and their duties, a likely program, and a description of the principal ancillary organizations: DeMolay Clubs and priories of the DeMolay Order of Knighthood. What does anyone else think? I know how most of this was thirty or forty years ago, but don't know how it is now. If we get this, the article will have what the organization's website didn't have, last time I looked. J S Ayer 18:26, 9 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Not to pick, but W should be accurate in its terminology. All advisors carry the title "Dad." The Chapter Advisor is the chapter's liaison with the Advisory Council. The chairman of the Advisory Council is the Advisory Council's liaison with the sponsoring body. It is both vague and redundant to refer to one advisor or another as the Dad Advisor. kcylsnavS{screechharrass} 02:28, 31 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Clinton[edit]

I can't find any references of Bill Clinton being named an honorary IMC. He is in the hall of fame, but I think that's it. Generally Honorary IMCs are given out to people who worked hard for DeMolay.

Clinton apparently says in his book that he was a Chapter MC, but the IMC web references seem to come from here and get populated to other sites. This is easy to solve, though, as one can simply email DeMolay Intl. and ask them if Clinton is an IMC or not. MSJapan 16:43, 17 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, he's a chapter MC, he was NEVER an IMC.

A serving "International Congress Secretary" or "International Master Councilor" at the end of their terms presents "honorary" status to those who supported them during their terms. It is entirely plausible that a sitting IMC declared Bill Clinton to be an honorary IMC. These honorary offices are simply a recognition of assistance and, by no means, carry any official authority. It is not uncommon for one officer to appoint up to six honoraries. —Preceding Lavoie76 (talk) 02:49, 19 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Treasurer appointed?[edit]

Aren't there four elected officers: the 3 councilors and the treasurer, b/c he handles the chapter's money? Or was it just in my chapter that the treasurer was elected? 12.201.118.36 07:01, 3 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The Treasurer is not elected. It must have been just your chapter. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.81.98.135 (talk) 01:57, 30 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Our treasurer is a Dad... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.187.168.26 (talk) 01:00, 23 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Can the Scribe be elected? I have heard talk the Chapters can do this and that you can do it on the State level72.187.168.26 (talk) 03:16, 8 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The Treasurer is elected but is only elected for a year. The Scribe is chosen from the Advisory Council and also serves for a year. Though many chapters may not follow exactly, those are the official by-laws set out by the Supreme Council — Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.15.159.238 (talk) 04:30, 27 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

After 9/11 the way the Federal Goverment monitored groups and their bank account made it difficult for those under 18 to serve as a true Treasurer, most DeMolay chapters in response use only advisors now, but the Treasurer is still an office even if he is not balancing the checkbook and keeping an account of the finances directly. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.122.98.254 (talk) 20:16, 19 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Cleanup Suggested[edit]

This article could use a little revision. Any suggestions? As soon as a consensus is taken on how the article should look, the cleanup tag should be removed.

We need to add some more history of the organization, change some diction, add some links to state websites etc.
Yes, yes, and no. This article is not supposed to be a list of stuff, and the state sites should be accessible via the main DeMolay site. This is an encyclopedia article, not a web portal. But that gives me an idea, which I will consider further after I fix this article. MSJapan 17:57, 31 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
This article is definitely needing it. Also, check out the discussion about creating a new article only for the order of DeMolay. So this article would stand for the organization DeMolay International that rules the order around the world. On this way, it would be easier to add more information Arthurhosang (talk) 22:21, 20 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@MSJapan:, I started the cleanup, but it was rolled back because of errors (grammatical I guess). How can we start those revisions? I would be glad to proceed with it. Also I'm organising this article on my sandbox. Arthurhosang (talk) 08:51, 24 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Appendant Body?[edit]

It was my understanding that DeMolay is a Masonic Sponsored organization, that it doesn't have the same status that the York Rite or the Shrine does?

Done MDEdmonds 05:28, 22 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
No - all York Rite and Shriners are Masons, but DeMolays aren't. Bill Clinton is a DeMolay who never joined the Masons, for example.--SarekOfVulcan 22:11, 22 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

If Florida, the Blue Lodge passed a bi-law that you have to be 18 to join. SO...now we have DeMolays and Masons a the same time... so you cannot say ALL...

Alice Cooper[edit]

AFAIK Alice was never a Senior DeMolay, this is a popular legend that is often talked about in Chapters, but according to most Officials, and from personal research I have done (I am a DeMolay, living in Arizona after all), this is false. Avador


Cooper was not a DeMolay. My brother confirmed this at an autograph signing. He asked Cooper directly, Cooper had not heard of the organization, asked a few questions about it, and said it sounded like a good thing. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.31.34.40 (talk) 02:31, 19 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I was trying to find a suitable place to insert this comment. This seemed the most relevant. In his youth, the occultist and chiropractor Israel Regardie was a member of DeMolay, an organisation that he mentions in one of his books, "Ceremonial Magic: A Guide to the Mechanisms of Ritual (1980), where he mentions an early introduction to ritual. He felt that, though superbly coached and rehearsed (and "in effect, run by Masons"), what the rituals lacked was what he calls "Masonic mystery".
Nuttyskin (talk) 05:22, 29 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Racist history[edit]

As a Demolay member growing up in the 70s I recall reading an encyclopedia entry (World Book, circa 1954) about the Order stating that membership was "open to white Christian boys". We had black members at the time, so this requirement was obsolete, but it would be interesting to see an "unauthorized" history of DeMolay featuring this and other information.67.160.170.214 14:34, 25 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Not here you won't. Hearsay and personal recollection don't work in an encyclopedia. MSJapan 17:35, 25 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Of course not.. and presumably, they didn't work in a early-50's World Book either. I'm not suggesting that personal recollections be included, only that there might be room for an objective history of the organization's eligibility standards.67.160.170.214 19:44, 26 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

As far as I am aware, there have never been any membershgip requirements with regards to race or religious belief (with the exception of atheists). Though I would not be at all surprized if any such requirements were adopted in the southern states & jurisdictions during the years of segragation, nonetheless nothing like this has ever been recorded. Avador 19:49, 27 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Um, I was a member in the 1980s. On paper, there was never any mention of any racial restrictions, and the organization claimed to be open. But I think many of the individual chapters had a lot of resistance to the idea of African-American members. I also believe there were parallel organizations (Knights of Pythagoris?) that reinforced this. In any case, if more information about this is found, it should clearly be added to the article - provided it's verifiable info and presented in a neutral way. NickBurns 18:54, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

This is an unstated issue in the south. Other states have their lodges, assemblies, and chapters meet together. The South is still seperated. However, in DeMolay things are different. Louisiana has all races within their DeMolay organization.(Jessie53 (talk) 02:20, 13 November 2008 (UTC))[reply]

I have sat in DeMolay meetings with DeMolays who were black. The reaction was . . . well there was no reaction. It wasn't important to anyone. kcylsnavS{screechharrass} 02:32, 31 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Any racist views DeMolay chapters displayed in the 1950's where an unfortunate reflection of attitudes of the times in society as a whole. Similiarly as recently as the 1990s, while they were certainly there, gay members where not out and open about it, as society had not yet become tolerant of homosexuality. Today DeMolay leaders are out and open without anyone caring. DeMolay actually teaches tolerance, so it is sad that they have reflected society as a whole at time. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.122.98.254 (talk) 20:23, 19 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

As a member in the early 80s, I knew our chapter was racist (I was told not to propose any members of color) but thought I could change them. But when a quarterly or monthly national newsletter came with an article about a national basketball tournament and no persons of color were in it - well I never went to another meeting. --------------------------

External links[edit]

In order to prevent this article from becoming a list of links, I propose we do not add any external links to any DeMolay organizations aside from the main site. On another note, it should also prevent the edit warring going on with the Brazil link. MSJapan 12:55, 11 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Conspiracy theories[edit]

Amazing that there are no conspiracy theories mentioned here. :) metaspheres 09:49, 21 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

That is because, unlike Masonry, DeMolay has never been accused or attacked by any conspiracy theories whatsoever. Avador 03:42, 25 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I have a difficult time accepting that, considering that there are conspiracy theories about virtually every single human (and some non-human!) organization on the planet. Even the Boy Scouts have been attacked as being part of a vast right-wing conspiracy. DeMolay is also obviously connected to Masonry, making it an easy target. Considering to what ridiculous lengths writers like David Icke will go to in order to show patterns and connections, if what you claim is true, then it is definitely one for the books. Hell, this should warrant an entry in the Guinness World Book of Records. metaspheres 20:50, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
Even so, that is only pure, unsourced speculation, and is considered original research. Avador 05:17, 8 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Isn't DeMolay an anti Catholic society? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.190.114.174 (talk) 02:14, 18 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
No, DeMolay is not anti-Catholic! Nor is it "anti-" anything else. It is for teaching good citizenship and responsible adulthood to young men.
kcylsnavS{screechharrass} 22:37, 18 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Fair use rationale for Image:Demolay logo.gif[edit]

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Trademark serial nos. 76387183, 76387184, and 76387185 are registered trademarks showing as active on TEAS. kcylsnavS{screechharrass} 02:39, 31 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"every" chapter sponsered by a masonic body[edit]

I have herd that Virginia Masonry does not recodnize DeMolay as a masonic body and will not sponcer any DeMolay chapters. I could be wrong however, I am in Washington state, still it's what i've herd.

Nope, I'm involved with Virginia DeMolay and Virginia Masonry and can assure you that this is most definitely not true. Darwin16 14:06, 11 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

You're thinking of West Virginia. kcylsnavS{screechharrass} 02:40, 31 May 2010 (UTC) DeMolay in West Virginia is sponsored by masonic bodies other than lodges.[reply]
kcylsnavS{screechharrass} 22:40, 18 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The only rules are that there must be 3 Master Masons on every Advisory Council. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.15.159.238 (talk) 04:35, 27 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

When I was active, I heard it was Wyoming. However, the by-laws of DI require that each Chapter be sponsored by a Masonic body of some sort. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 156.77.111.18 (talk) 21:34, 2 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

suggested merger[edit]

Do we really need seperate articles on Rainbow, DeMolay, Job's Daughters, and Triangle? Why not merge them into one article on "Masonic Youth Organizations"? Blueboar 19:24, 13 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Never mind... after discussing at other articles I can see it will not work. Blueboar 23:01, 13 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Moving this article beyond start class[edit]

The big thing I notice is that the article is woefully short on references and citations. I think this is a must do first step to move this remotely towards GA status. Blueboar 23:00, 13 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Congrats[edit]

I first started work on the youth Masonic groups 4 years ago making humble inroads to getting this started. It's really great to see people pick up the ball and make this an outstanding article. Get some sourcing in and this is first rate.

Thanks again! --Wgfinley (talk) 02:35, 9 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Honors and Awards[edit]

Being a Senior DeMolay myself, I know that there are more honors and awards than that of Legion of Honor and Chevalier. If there's going to be a sub-section entitled Honors and Awards, I believe that there should be listed more than just 2 awards. And you can take out the Sweetheart paragraph and make it its own section. The Sweetheart is elected by each chapter, and is not necessarily something that every chapter wants to have. I propose that the Honors and Awards section be updated and revamped with the information from the Honors and Awards section of the Official DeMolay Website. 72.81.98.135 (talk) 02:06, 30 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Jurisdictions[edit]

I think it would be profitable to show the organization of jurisdictions as well as the International Supreme Council. What does everyone think? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Koopakillers (talk • contribs) 22:26, 9 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I think it would be a good idea but remember WP:NOR.
kcylsnavS{screechharrass} 22:43, 18 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Considering that not all Jurisdictions are under the Supreme Council, this can be difficult. Brazil, for example, has its own Supreme Council, and may not have separate Jurisdictions. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 156.77.111.18 (talk) 21:36, 2 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Use of "Dad"[edit]

I think it's fine to explain the use of the honorific "Dad" within the organization, but it doesn't seem proper to use it in other parts of the article when referring to people, such as Frank Land. Presumably no one outside the organization would refer to him that way, so the wikipedia article should not either. He should be referred to as anyone else is an encyclopedia article, as "Frank Land", "Mr. Land", etc. Mnudelman (talk) 20:56, 10 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Absolutely correct. I'll attend to it unless someone else is bold first. RiverStyx23{submarinetarget} 00:38, 14 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
 Done RiverStyx23{submarinetarget} 00:45, 14 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

HLOH[edit]

Under the Loh subject it talks about the HLOH but does not say what it is. The medal With coords is different. We should put in the HLOH with a photo of it. Regalia consists of a gold and blue enameled cross medallion with nine stars suspended from a red cordon for an Active Legionnaire and a white cordon for an Honorary Legionnaire. The cross is mounted on an encircling wreath with crossed swords and surrounded by a coronet above which is a red enameled Teutonic Cross. Initially the insignia of HLOH was an LOH cross suspended by a heavy white ribbon from a gold bar containing nine raised stars. A gold ring with a red Maltese cross for an Active Legionnaire and white Maltese cross for an Honorary Legionnaire is worn on the little finger of the right hand.

Sources: Whittier DeMolay in Southern California jurisdiction where i am chapter Mc

Degree of Ebon[edit]

An IP editor keeps adding the "Decree of Ebon". It is unclear what importance that degree possesses, as the IP editor has consistently failed to provide a citation to an independent reliable source. While I may believe that there is a Demolay degree of Ebon; I do not believe that it is notable, and I await reliable, independent sources for it before it is restored to the article. --Bejnar (talk) 06:31, 10 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

There is a Degree called Ebon on the Knighthood. I would say that to add information about thise degree here, we need to have at least a Knighthood section on this article ~~ Arthurhosang (talk) 22:32, 20 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Needs sources[edit]

This article needs citations to Reliable Sources, not just references to the organization's website. There have been many studies of Freemasonry and fraternal organizations. Don't any cover this one? If RS cannot be found, it would appear the organization is not notable and does not deserve an article. As it stands, it is virtually without any sources and could be deleted.Parkwells (talk) 13:45, 12 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

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DeMolay International has recently updated their website. All of those links have been moved. You won't find membership stats available as they are now considered proprietary information. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 156.77.111.18 (talk) 21:39, 2 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

DeMolay in Mexico[edit]

In 1972/73 there was a DeMolay chapter in Mexico city....they were even represented at the 1972 convention in St. Louis. Please remove all references to Mexico from this article. Any organization in Mexico that uses DeMolay has never been authorized to exist from the International Supreme Council, and as such are clandestine. This was communicated to all advisors in 2015 from the sitting Grand Master at the time, Stephen Crane. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 156.77.111.18 (talk) 21:42, 2 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Under International - Find a Jurisdiction you can see the jurisdiction “Baja California” wich is in Mexico. I don’t know when it was added to DeMolay International’s website, but it seems that now Mexico has a DeMolay Jurisdiction (even though it’s only in one State) supported by DeMolay International. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Arthurhosang (talk • contribs) 06:35, 2 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Scribe[edit]

According to the by-laws of DeMolay International, the Scribe is only selected by the Advisory Council. He is not an elected officer. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 156.77.111.18 (talk) 21:48, 2 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Copyright problem removed[edit]

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Thanks, Diannaa. Seeing you at the article, I was wondering why this article is on my watchlist. I looked in the edit history and saw: "07:02, 17 April 2015‎ Flyer22 Reborn (talk | contribs)‎ . . (29,523 bytes) (-826)‎ . . (Reverting User:PaulBustion88; WP:Sockpuppet of User:RJR3333.)." Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 20:43, 7 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

"Young Masons"[edit]

DeMolay is not, nor has ever been designed to be 'Young Masons'. While influenced by and created by a Mason, Frank Land did not intend for the organization to be used to train young men into becoming Masons. While I know several DeMolay who have gone on to become Masons, many don't. It's like saying that the Order of the Rainbow is the 'Young Order of the Eastern Star'.

68.132.13.242 (talk) 18:40, 18 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Hmm. When I was a member, it was frequently described in just that way. I understand what you're saying - perhaps it wasn't Land's intent or ever expressed in an official organizational way - but clearly Masons have a source of connection and/or - I would use these words lightly and carefully - ownership/responsibility to DeMolay chapters (at least the lodges with those relationships, anyway). 2603:8001:2A00:7428:718D:7F55:F5CD:E272 (talk) 14:18, 11 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion[edit]

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Duchess[edit]

was middleton my grandmaother MAyers79 (talk) 01:53, 16 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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