Talk:City status in the United Kingdom

British overseas territories and crown dependencies

Would there be any information on how city status is managed in these territories? The List of cities in Malaysia, for instance, mentioned that George Town, Penang had its city status granted by QEII's royal charter in 1957, whereas the Singapore Municipal Board received its city status in 1951 (with no details on whether that was granted by way of city charter, letters patent or legislation). 1.64.48.231 (talk) 15:28, 19 October 2021 (UTC)

There is no one article and relatively few individual articles, along with some lists with prose - start an article if you dare!

There is only one formal city (not capital city) in the remaining offshore regions, Jamestown in St Helena.

Historically, there is some more info for Singapore at City of Singapore (historical entity)

There is Category:City status with links to a handful of articles

City status also links a few more articles.

--The Equalizer (talk) 11:57, 20 October 2021 (UTC)

What about, say, Hamilton, in 1897? And among former crown colonies, say, New Westminster in 1860, York in 1834 (as Toronto), or Kingston in 1803? 1.64.48.231 (talk) 16:48, 20 October 2021 (UTC)

A couple of those like Jamaica are in my links above. But alas not all in one place. You might find details of the honours process on a county/city page, but it is pretty standard in most places as in it can only be granted by a decree from a head of state or government and only the year differs. Looks like you have some stats already, a British Empire cities list article would be a decent start if you felt there was a demand and notable (someone asked further up the page previously too). The Equalizer (talk) 18:58, 20 October 2021 (UTC)

Should it begin as a section of this article? In addition to Hamilton which attained the status of a city in 1897 and Jamestown in 1859, Gibraltar was granted the status in 1921. Back in 2006 the Connétable of Saint Helier sought the status too. 1.64.48.231 (talk) 16:13, 21 October 2021 (UTC)

It could be, British Overseas Territories and Crown Dependencies aren't actually part of the United Kingdom now, which this specific article is about, but the cities of the British Empire could make up a section on its historical development, akin to the Ireland section, then breakout to the list/sub-article. Size up how many cities there are first and what was actually granted during the period of the Empire. Could get tricky if rights were granted pre-British Empire though. --The Equalizer (talk) 17:48, 21 October 2021 (UTC)

Right. They aren't and have never been part of the UK. Just that some of them had their city statuses granted in the name of the monarch of the UK (or England) by way of letters patent or some other instruments and that is the reason why their inclusion under this article may be warranted. But that'd best discussed in a separate article (to be linked form this article with a section or a paragraph). As for the "tricky" part you mentioned, the only cases I have so far come across are Beverwyck (Albany), Communipaw (Jersey City), Nieuw Amsterdam (New York), and Nieuw Haarlem (Harlem). 1.64.48.231 (talk) 11:44, 23 October 2021 (UTC)

Revisiting this topic, as I see more content being added to the city articles re: overseas locations, and looping in @Smurrayinchester to highlight some of the detail above. It's an interesting challenge because there is no single place or book with that detail in! This map https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:The_British_Empire.png is quite useful as it condenses all the details of Crown_colony#List, English_overseas_possessions#Timeline and Historical_development_of_Church_of_England_dioceses#Colonial_dioceses, which between those will narrow down locations which conceivably may have been granted cities. Beckett also calls out some countries that raised local legislation for the status while under British rule so those could be less clear.

Regards, The Equalizer (talk) 02:22, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

City status: Granted to town, borough or both?

When City status is granted, the Letters Patent may word that the 'town' or 'borough' becomes the city. Is there a legality of what area becomes the city, or can the term be used to describe the urban area and its surrounding district? Some Wikipedia articlrs will include: X is a city within the City of X district... so how does it work? Just want some thoughts and discussion. Goom80 (talk) 02:51, 1 June 2023 (UTC)

Did you see the City councils article section. Regards, The Equalizer (talk) 15:16, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

I did, thanks. The main reason I asked is because there seems to be debate amongst pages. I understand that if a reliable source states a 'town' is a city, even though the district has the status, then Wikipedia can use the term. For example, Preston is a city within the larger City of Preston, alludes to two cities, when only the district is a city. Colchester article states that Colchester is the main settlement within the City of Colchester. Therr are reliable sources referring to the town of Colchester being made a city, but any attempt to change tbe article even with cititation is reversed. Goom80 (talk) 02:56, 14 July 2023 (UTC)

At its most basic, Letters Patent are only awarded to a corporate body, the local authority. A Letter Patent cannot be awarded to a settlement in the abstract. Conversely, (per common usage and simply common sense), a city is a built-up area not a tract of countryside. So although formal "city status in the UK" is legally awarded to the LA, it is as plain as a pikestaff that the term "city" is being assigned to the core settlement. That the extent of a LA's remit covers a significant rural area with a number of minor towns and villages does not change that. The edit war going on at the Colchester article just looks like pedantry to me. Pre-award sources that say "town" are simply outdated: WP:AGEMATTERS. Colchester was declared to be a city, the bureaucratic mechanisms are incidental.

Full disclosure: all of the above applies equally to Milton Keynes and City of Milton Keynes, where I live. So I am not a neutral bystander. --𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 09:26, 14 July 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for this. I happen to agree with this view, but its definitely editors on that page being pedantic. I had tried to bargain, but it seems to go nowhere. As i say, there are several reliable sources referring to the former town being a city, but even when including those, any edit is reversed soon after. I can only assume that someone is just not willing to accept Colchester is now a city. Goom80 (talk) 14:38, 14 July 2023 (UTC)

This actually spells out the entity that has the status, use it as a reference.

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/notice/4171582 The Equalizer (talk) 22:26, 14 July 2023 (UTC)

This is from the application rules for the Platinum Jubilee honours:

Applications may only be made by an elected local authority for its entire area or a distinct area within its boundary. The Equalizer (talk) 18:35, 14 July 2023 (UTC)

WP: Wikipedia is not a court of law. These reliable sources give the de facto status:

• "Platinum Jubilee Civic Honours". National Association of Civic Officers. 9 June 2022. Our congratulations to the eight towns elevated to city status, by Her Majesty, as part of the Platinum Jubilee celebrations.
• "What makes a city?". House of Commons Library. 14 November 2022. In May 2022, eight places were awarded city status. These were Bangor (Northern Ireland), Colchester, Doncaster, Dunfermline, Milton Keynes, and Wrexham: and also Douglas (Isle of Man) and Stanley (in the Falkland Islands). Southampton was awarded a lord mayoralty.

"It is what it is". 𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 21:36, 14 July 2023 (UTC)

This is really helpful. I will have to start a new discussion over on Colchester maun page, would be helpful to have some comments agree. Goom80 (talk) 23:25, 14 July 2023 (UTC)

Thank you, that that may help my cause. If any of you wish to add this to the Colchester debate talk page, it would helpful. Goom80 (talk) 23:21, 14 July 2023 (UTC)

Well, I've sèen a new discussion started over at the Colchester page. This should be helpful in reaching a conclusion. Goom80 (talk) 23:32, 14 July 2023 (UTC)

Arundel

Why is this not a cathedral town? Turkeyphan^t 16:14, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

Because Arundel Cathedral is Roman Catholic affiliated, not Church of England. The Equalizer (talk) 15:20, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

Notification of discussion: how and when to record award of city status

A discussion has begun on developing a writing guideline for how and when to record award of city status. You may wish to contribute at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject UK geography/How to write about settlements#What makes a city?. Contributions welcome. --08:01, 19 July 2023 (UTC) 𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 08:01, 19 July 2023 (UTC)