Talk:Chris Young (pitcher)/Archive 1

GA on hold

I have reviewed this article according to GA criteria. There are a few things that should be fixed before I pass the article.

1. Add a hyphen to "right handed" in the intro. There should probably be another one in "two sport". Done17:10, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
2. Is there any early life history that could be added to the article? Example: where he was born, who his parents were, high school he went to, siblings, etc.

   I have included where he was born, his wife and am not yet able to determine if the "Highland High School" in Dallas that he attended was Lake Highlands High School. TonyTheTiger (talk/cont/bio) 19:55, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

3. Write out 3 years in the affiliations section. Done17:10, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
4. "Then just prior to the 2004 season the Expos traded him to the Texas Rangers where he debuted late in 2004" Remove "then just". Done17:10, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
5. The Collegiate Career section needs to be moved in front of the affiliations section to be in chronological order. Done17:10, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
6. "5 2/3 IP, 4 H, 4 SO, 3 BB, 3 ER performance" Add wikilinks for the various initials here for people who may not know what they stand for. Done17:10, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
7. "In November 2006, he traveled to Japan to take part in the Major League Baseball Japan All-Star Series." Elaborate on this sentence or incorporate it into another sentence. Individual sentences shouldn't stand alone. Done 21:07, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
8. In the 2007 Season section, combine some of the sentences in the first paragraph, they sound choppy when reading them. Done TonyTheTiger (talk/cont/bio) 21:27, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
9. I don't think "inked" should be used. Signed should be fine. Done17:10, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
10. Rename the trivia section, to something else such as "Height". Done17:10, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
11. If you can, add a table about his current career stats. You can see an example at Ty Cobb#Regular season stats. Done TonyTheTiger (talk/cont/bio) 21:59, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Altogether, these shouldn't take too long to fix at all. I am going to leave the article on hold for seven days and will fail it if the above issues aren't addressed. When you are done or if you have any questions, let me know on my talk page and I'll get back to you as soon as I can. --Nehrams2020 03:55, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

I disagree

1.) Well written? No, poor read, broken up paragraphs that uses alot of baseball terminology, lack depth of information apart from baseball facts included. Over use of links Home run is link at least 3 times .Difficult to follow players progress

2.) factually accurate? The references look good with most statements having a citation.

3.) broad in its coverage? No, contains general baseball details not enough personal information

4.) neutral point of view? Yes

5.) stable? Yes

6.) contains images? Yes.

This for me is a fail (Gnevin 09:01, 2 May 2007 (UTC))

A few more things

There are just a few more things that need to be fixed before I pass it. The first sentence in the 2007 season section sounds redundant with "surrendered a home run" used twice, please reword the sentence. Also, some of the headings need to be lower-cased according to the WP:Manual of Style. The last thing that should be taken care of is the table. It's good that you added it but it would look better if it was properly formatted. In response to the above fail review, I think you have fixed most of the issues by expanding the article by allowing it to become more broad and providing wikilinks for the baseball terminology. Again, let me know when these are done and I'll get back to you faster than this time. --Nehrams2020 22:11, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

"The first sentence in the 2007 season section sounds redundant with "surrendered a home run" used twice, please reword the sentence."  Done 14:42, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

"Also, some of the headings need to be lower-cased according to the WP:Manual of Style."  Done 14:42, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

"It's good that you added it but it would look better if it was properly formatted."  Done 18:32, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

GA passed

Good job on addressing the above issues so quickly. I have passed this article according to the GA criteria. Continue to expand the article with sourced information, making sure to keep the stable. If you get the chance, consider reviewing an article or two at GAC to help with the backlog. There are a lot of articles to choose from. --Nehrams2020 19:39, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Last Princeton hit/home run

Since Bob Tufts failed to get a hit in his only at bat it is unclear who was the last Princeton player to record a hit prior to Young in a major league game. Also, since Young has neither homered nor stolen a base, it is of interest and import to determin who is the last Princeton player to do either. Neither Tufts nor Dave Sisler accomplished either feat. TonyTheTiger (talk/cont/bio) 06:17, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Well, from Baseball-Reference, it looks like Dave Sisler was the last Princeton alum to get a hit in a MLB game before Chris Young. The last player from Princeton to steal a base and hit a home run is Moe Berg (whose article is written quite nicely, might I add). Nishkid64 (talk) 18:53, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Pic needed

I got as many pics as I could of Young during his visit here to Chicago, but since he was ejected in the top of the 4th my selection is limited. We could use better pics of him batting and in the on deck circle. Also, since we are on a stolen base watch we should get a picture of him leading off of first or running between first and second. TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/tcfkaWCDbwincowtchatlotpsoplrttaDCLaM) 15:05, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Possible reversion war discussion

I am fearful of my first WP:3R case. Please see user page discussions especially at User_talk:Ksy92003#Chris_Young before blocking any user.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/tcfkaWCDbwincowtchatlotpsoplrttaDCLaM) 20:24, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Holy guacamole

I'm tempted to de-list the GA status on the article because it seems like every other word is linked. I'm not going to de-list it (however if there is extensive debate over editing, the article should not be GA) but if someone is going to copy-edit this, can they please; A: remove links on stand-alone years B: only link something once C:only link to what pertains to the article, to what helps the reader. I cannot do this, but if someone is copy-editing this, please look into that.++aviper2k7++ 21:13, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

And we don't need seven paragraphs to describe his 2007 season (which is midway through). If an account of every single game is added, this article would be like a telephone book.++aviper2k7++ 21:17, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Recent major changes to Chris Young

I've noticed there are huge reverts going back and forth on this article.

A couple of notes:

1. In the current state (the state with 115+ references) , there is WAY too much minutia about the individual seasons. Especially in the 2007 season, where we DON'T need an entry and link to a boxscore each time Young pitches. If someone wants to see how he did in each and every start, they are welcome to visit his gamelogs on ESPN.com or MLB.com. If the article continues in it's current state, it is going to become huge & unweildy, bogged down by individual game recaps.

2. Again, in the current state, there's no reason for all of those pictures, especially since a lot of them are very similar. If they were different, or each added something to the article, it would be another story.

Just my thoughts from the outside. Bjewiki 21:33, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

A good idea would be to upload the images (if not already) to Wikipedia Commons and link to the Commons page. Gallery's aren't meant for Wikipedia.++aviper2k7++ 21:40, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Little details

When reading this article, do I have to read every single little detail about every little game? I'm going to work on shortening that, hopefully soon. Hornberry 03:53, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Most likely, you won't be able to; TonyTheTiger will probably revert you. Trust me. 4.232.174.77 06:05, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

I (Palmdoc) deleted the recent incident with Derek Lee in Chicago as it is not really an important historical point in baseball. CY is serving the suspension - the inclusion of this incident in Wikipedia is minutia.

Actually, I think that the incident is important. This brawl gained national attention and was instigated by Chris Young. I agree with TTT that the main reason why people would even come here is because they heard that he was involved in that huge brawl. That's the event that brought me over to this page in the first place. It's the most notable event that happened in his Pro-Baseball career and he has received much attention because of this brawl. I think the article would be incomplete if this isn't mentioned. ––Ksy92003(talk) 16:05, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Do we REALLY need the day by day ERA thing? Hornberry 01:04, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

I think you are missing the point. It is interesting that he was the ERA leader for a single day at first. Then it is important to note that he gained the ERA lead that he held at the All-Star break.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/tcfkaWCDbwincowtchatlotpsoplrttaDCLaM) 01:25, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Using that same reasoning, if a pitcher pitched one shutout inning on opening day, then he would be the league leader. Using this example, let's use Kevin Gregg, for example. If Gregg closed out the game on opening day and didn't allow a run but pitched an inning, would you say "On April 2, Kevin Gregg pitched a shutout 9th inning, giving him the league lead in ERA?" It doesn't matter if he led it at first; people aren't going to care about that. People aren't gonna care that he led the league in ERA at the All-Star break, only if at the end of the season. Detail is good; too much detail isn't. ––Ksy92003(talk) 01:30, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

I agree, and apparently so does everyone else (except TTT). These minute details about every start, and every month of every season contain way too much detail for an encyclopedia article. If someone is looking for that much in depth information about him, i suggest they try ChrisYoung.com or something like that. Bjewiki 01:40, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Do you guys really not understand the difference between being the ERA leader on opening day and on June 24th?--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/tcfkaWCDbwincowtchatlotpsoplrttaDCLaM) 01:49, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

I understand that there is a difference between April 1 and June 24. But that's not the point. But June 24 isn't the end of the season. The ERA at the end of the season is the true important statistic, not right now. It's not important to say what his ERA is on any one day because that date's stat isn't gonna be relevant at all once the season ends.

As far as your comment, "Do you guys really not understand the difference between being the ERA leader on opening day and on June 24th," do you understand my point? Whether it's midseason or opening week, there isn't any difference between somebody leading the league in ERA after the first game and somebody leading the league in ERA at the All-Star break. The latter doesn't have any more significance than the former. The mere statistics aren't an important issue now. But it goes into far too much detail by saying that his ERA was XXX and he was in 2nd place one day, but the leading pitcher increased his ERA too much and he took over in 1st place. Can't you agree that that's too much information, especially since who knows, he might not lead in ERA at the end of the season?

Here’s a real-life example from last season; Cincinnati Reds pitcher Bronson Arroyo hit 2 home runs in his first two starts of the 2006 season. After the first home run, he was tied for the league lead. He had 2 at the end of the first week of the season, which was close to the league lead. But would you say “Bronson Arroyo hit a home run in his first start, giving him the league lead. However, on April 6, Albert Pujols hit his 2nd home run of the season to take the league lead away from Arroyo. Arroyo hit another home run in his next start to tie Pujols, once again. But Pujols later hit another home run to give himself 3 on the season and take the lead back.” To give a day-by-day update on Young’s placement in the NL ranks goes into far too much detail than is encyclopedic.

Additionally, and Bjewiki pointed this out earlier, at the end of the season, is every single detail gonna be important? In 2009, is anybody gonna want to know when exactly Young led the league in ERA or how he did on any particular start? The only information that should be included in a player’s article for a particular season should be his overall record and stats, his ranking in the important stats if he’s within the top-5 or whatever, and important events that gave him national attention in the baseball world, such as the brawl with Derrek Lee in June. It’s hardly relevant to note when he took over the ERA lead if he doesn’t lead it at the end, or even worse, if he does win it. After the season, is anybody gonna come to the article and ask “I know Chris Young lead the NL in ERA for the 2007 season, but when did he first take the lead?” It’s also a statistic that’s near impossible to track the way that you are in this sense. It’s nearly impossible to track Peavy’s, Penny’s, and Young’s ERA all at once on any given day; additionally, too much detail on unimportant events, like saying what his ERA was on any given day, is far too much and could be incredibly confusing for any reader who just wants to know the basics of his season.

Others have expressed this concern before; 100+ references for a player who has played no more than 4 seasons? Dominik Hašek is a hockey player who has played since the early-90’s, and his article is also a Featured Article. He’s a 42-yr old hockey player who is entering his 17th season. He has won a Stanley Cup, has played in 2 other Stanley Cup Finals, won the League MVP twice, the Vezina Trophy 6 times in a span of 8 seasons, and a Lester B. Pearson Award twice, 5-time All-Star, and… well, basically, he has a lot of notability. The reason I’m mentioning this? His article only has 59 references. It’s also a 60K article, by the way, but it breaks up Hasek’s 7 years in Buffalo into three sections; three for ’96-’98, one for the ’99 finals, and three for ’99-’01, then groups his four seasons in Ottawa and three in Detroit all into one section. It doesn’t describe every single season in a bunch of detail, only gives the main details. It has a much better format than Young’s article. And again, all those awards, 17 seasons, and 59 references compared to 0 awards, 3 seasons, and 100+ references? Dominik Hašek is a really impressive Featured Article, and I think that Chris Young’s article should be modeled off of this one. I think you are trying too hard to give a year-by-year summary, TTT, and are giving far too much detail on every single appearance he makes, no matter how insignificant the game. I really think that you (I say you because you honestly appear to be assuming ownership of this article) should think about using Dominik Hašek's article as a prime example of how a Featured Article on a professional sports athlete should look. ––Ksy92003(talk) 04:13, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

I agree in general terms. I think, as encyclopedia authors, we have to try to put ourselves in the mind set of someone a decade from now and think, what details matter now? Assuming Chris Young has a long and distinguished career, it would be hard to think that each year would be worthy of more than one paragraph. I think that replacing year to year details with prose about his pitching style, personal life, and other intangibles would be positive. I believe this is the first baseball player article that is headed toward being a featured article. It would be nice if we could hash out some style guidelines for implementation on the baseball project page. Basar 01:57, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Go straight to http://www.ivyleaguesports.com/ and see that Young's Ivy league fans care about his Ivy league trivia as I have pointed out in earlier debate. It is something his fans will care about for the rest of his career. --TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/tcfkaWCDbwincowtchatlotpsoplrttaDCLaM) 18:00, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

P.S. look at the Main page.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/tcfkaWCDbwincowtchatlotpsoplrttaDCLaM) 18:00, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

I know about the DYK. The way that it was recently worded is better. But I didn't come here to discuss that. You failed to answer any of my claims in my previous comment... not one.

And as far as the Ivy League part goes, it doesn't matter if his "Ivy League" fans care about him a lot or not at all. We removed it on the basis that he wasn't the first to do something. Somebody being the 6th person to do something doesn't make it that important. ––Ksy92003(talk) 18:14, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Should Sammy Sosa's 600th Home Run be removed from his bio as insignificant by this standard?--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/tcfkaWCDbwincowtchatlotpsoplrttaDCLaM) 18:17, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

P.S. in response to above, I stated at the baseball talk page that I feel internet era athletes should have one box score or game recap citation per mportant game. That boosts my edit count. Have you taken the time to correct the numbers that you fiddled with?--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/tcfkaWCDbwincowtchatlotpsoplrttaDCLaM) 18:27, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

But you think every game is important. If a pitcher even led the league with a 1.32 ERA, and in his next start it increased to 1.55, is that an important game because his ERA changed? You seem to think that every single game has the same importance. News flash: IT DOESN'T. ––Ksy92003(talk) 18:31, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

No, because when Sosa hit his 600th home run, there were celebrations and ceremonies to honor him. Additionally, a player hitting his 600th home run is something that can only be achieved based on his accomplishments while playing the game of baseball. Chris Young went to an Ivy League school, which isn't something many people can do. Him becoming the 6th Ivy League player to be an MLB All-Star isn't something that has been talked about around the MLB. It's not something that has been notably mentioned anywhere, and is unrelated to his baseball play. If he went to UCLA or Princeton, he would still be an All-Star. That on-field accomplishment is unrelated to the school he attended for college.

One more note: 600th home run is a personal milestone. It's something that people have paid attention to for the past several years, when he was approaching it. Many people go to games just to see if this guy will hit his 600th home run. For Barry Bonds, people go to games to see if he will hit a home run and pass Ruth (before he did pass him). Those accomplishments are on-field accomplishments and are directly linked to the game of baseball. A player attending any particular school isn't related to how he plays the game of baseball and has no factor in whether or not he is named an All-Star. For example, Bobby Grich became the first MLB player to be named an All-Star and attend Woodrow Wilson Classical High School in Long Beach, California, but that wouldn't be mentioned in his article in that sense because it's not important. Him graduating from any particular high school doesn't have any effect on his on-field game play. The same thing with Jeff Weaver, who (correct me if I'm wrong) became the first player out of Cal-State Long Beach to win Game 7 of a World Series. But in his article, you're not going to say "Jeff Weaver became the first alumn of California State Univeristy, Long Beach, to win game 7 of the World Series, would you? No, because him graduating from CSULB has no effect on his on-field accomplishments.

And please, please respond to the comment I left last night, regarding Dominik Hasek. ––Ksy92003(talk) 18:28, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Images

As requested on the project page, I think some of the images need to be restored. It does seem that there were perhaps too many originally though. I particularly like the pictures showing his deliver that are without the netting. Since they are freely licensed, I think they should all be uploaded to the commons and a link added in the see also or external links section. Is there a particular reason they were not uploaded there in the first place? Basar 16:25, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

I agree about the commons. I suggest just keeping one image as the infobox pic, and then providing a link to the additional pics at the bottom of the page. Bjewiki 16:37, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Some of the pictures that show Young's pitching motion and his stance on the mound are relevant to the page. I think, not including the infobox image, two images should be kept. Nishkid64 (talk) 01:07, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

I personally like his long toss pic and the action shot of him delivering from the mound the most.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/tcfkaWCDbwincowtchatlotpsoplrttaDCLaM) 01:29, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

FA

Do you think it will pass the comprehensive qualification without having more personal and playing style information? Basar 17:29, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

A lot of time personal information is really a function of a player being scandal-ridden with messy divorces, controversial interactions with coaches and managers, criminally suspicious clouds, etc. In this case we have a clean cut guy who had one beanball incident. His story is pretty much inside the lines. It is a good thing in this case that not much outside the lines stuff is relevant. By the way, I had included the fact that his wife is a law student and someone removed that. I would like to add that back.

What we have is the pitcher's analogue to a young Wade Boggs who immediately made it clear he was a perennial batting average and on base percentage contender after a notable series of minor league accomplishments. He has a lot of things to say between the lines.

Also, we have a different type of breadth in this article because of the detailed high school, collegiate and minor league career. This offsets the breadth of outside the lines activity. --TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/tcfkaWCDbwincowtchatlotpsoplrttaDCLaM) 16:40, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

Dead external links found

Five (5) links were detect as requiring assistance, Padres place Chris Young on DL; call up Tim Stauffer to make Sunday start, San Diego 6, Pittsburgh 2 (box score), Lee, Young ejected after Padres, Cubs fight, Benches clear in fourth inning between Padres-Cubs, and Lee, Young suspended 5 games each; Smith gets 3 games; Ruiz 1 returned a HTTP 404 status message. —Dispenser 04:28, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

All but the box score seem to be fine. I will check it.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/tcfkaWCDbwincowtchatlotpsoplrttaDCLaM) 00:18, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Title defenses

I am jumping the gun a bit because if Peavy pitches 12 nohit innings today he could take one title from Young and 16 nohit innings could take both. I will assume he is not going to do either since no one has in about 50 years.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/tcfkaWCDbwincowtchatlotpsoplrttaDCLaM) 18:38, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

GA problems

This article currently doesn't pass the Good article criteria. There are some instances where the Wikipedia:NPOV#Let_the_facts_speak_for_themselves and Wikipedia:Words to avoid are present.User:calbear22 (talk) 02:04, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

updated. I did a little work and rethought some of what I wrote.User:calbear22 (talk) 09:10, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

GA Reassessment

This article has been reviewed as part of Wikipedia:WikiProject Good articles/Project quality task force. I believe the article currently meets the criteria and should remain listed as a Good article. Please make sure that the article is constantly updated to ensure it remains up to date with his career. A number of non-essential suggestions are given below as pointer to improve the article. The article history has been updated to reflect this review. Regards, --Jackyd101 (talk) 17:54, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

• It is reasonably well written.

  a (prose): b (MoS):

Prose is OK, probably a 6/10. It is let down by the heavy use of jargon and statistics which makes it hard for someone who knows little about baseball (like me) to understand. Its not an essential problem at GA, but I recommend simplying the text where possible.

• It is factually accurate and verifiable.

  a (references): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR):

• It is broad in its coverage.

  a (major aspects): b (focused):

I'd like to see more about his parentage and young childhood: where was he born etc. Some information about his early years appears in the lead but is not expanded on below, consider expanding this in the appropriate sections. More on his personal life to expand that section would also be useful.--Jackyd101 (talk) 17:54, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

• It follows the neutral point of view policy.

  a (fair representation): b (all significant views):

• It is stable.

  

• It contains images, where possible, to illustrate the topic.

  a (tagged and captioned): b (lack of images does not in itself exclude GA): c (non-free images have fair use rationales):

Images are fine, but consider thinning out the gallery of images at the end, or maybe even removing it entirely.--Jackyd101 (talk) 17:54, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

• Overall:

  a Pass/Fail: