Talk:Cecil Frances Alexander

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Birth date[edit]

Several public domain sources (check on books.google.com) say she was born in 1823 (died in 1895). The Cyberhymnal and at least one modern hymnal I've seen (as well as this Wikipedia article) say she was born in 1818. Can anyone explain this? Where did this April date come from? I would trust the older sources, myself, without some great evidence (this is why I put that a source is needed for the birth date). —Shoreu 05:41, 19 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Birth place[edit]

Some sources say she was born in Dublin, others say Wicklow 82.4.38.108 (talk) 22:29, 25 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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Irish vs. British nationality[edit]

Through this edit her nationality was changed from Irish to British with the edit comment She was Anglo. I think that more care should be taken per WP:UKNATIONALS. Allow me to summarize some points which support to characterize her nationality as Irish:

  • Her mother Elizabeth Frances (née Reed) was Irish, see Gillespie, Sarah (19 June 2018). "All Things Bright and Beautiful – An Irishwoman's Diary on Cecil Frances Alexander". Irish Times.
  • Her father, Major John Humphreys, owned land at Ballykeane in County Wicklow which “placed him solidly among the gentry who [..] were the Anglo-Irish ruling class”. Quote from p. 87, note 7 of Brown, Katharine L. (1999). "The Social and Political Thought of Cecil Frances Alexander, Hymnwriter and Poet". Anglican and Episcopal History. 68 (1): 85–118. JSTOR 42612002.
  • She was born in Dublin and spent most of her life in County Londonderry where she died, see Mills, Ian (2013). "Alexander, Cecil Frances". The Encyclopaedia of Music in Ireland. Dublin: University College Dublin Press. pp. 11–12. ISBN 978-1-906359-78-2.
  • She is described as Irish children's hymn writer and poet by "Alexander, Cecil Frances (1818–1895)". Women in World History: A Biographical Encylopedia. Gale Research Inc. 2002.
  • The German National Library describes her as Irische Dichterin und Komponistin von Kirchenliedern
  • Katherine L. Brown comments on her Irishness: “What of Fanny's Irishness? Was her personal and familial identity so wrapped in its Britishness that she rejected her Irish heritage? Not at all. Her work is laced with Irish references and subjects that indicate a keen observation of landscape, folk custom, dialect and daily life, aspects of Ireland for which she had an appreciation. Absent, however, are themes of Irish history or Celtic mythology so dear to nationalist writers and the ‘native Irish.’”. Quote taken from p. 99–100 out of: Brown, Katharine L. (1999). "The Social and Political Thought of Cecil Frances Alexander, Hymnwriter and Poet". Anglican and Episcopal History. 68 (1): 85–118. JSTOR 42612002.

--AFBorchert (talk) 22:43, 20 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Looking at the article and its history, the problem is older, going back to these edits in 2016. They were against the Irish manual of style, which says that if somebody was born in pre-partition Ireland, their birthplace is Ireland. As for "she was Anglo", that is undoubtedly true, but the Anglo-Irish were Irish, and proudly so. Since she seems never to have lived outside Ireland, there is no reason not to call her Irish. I am editing the article accordingly. I am also moving the Orlando ref down from the infobox to the article body, where it belongs. Scolaire (talk) 15:48, 22 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Her nationality was British and that is acknowledged in the Katherine L. Brown article. She spent alot of her life as a protestant in Londonderry which is in modern day Northern Ireland, so it's hardly correct to describe her as Irish. Her father was English from Norfolk and her mother was Anglo-Irish. The most accurate thing to do would be to describe her as Anglo-Irish in the text and as British in the information box. She was British in law. Centuryofconfusion (talk) 05:28, 23 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
She was not British in law, because there was no such law. People from Ireland were called Irish in the 19th century. Not only was it not against the law but it would have been unthinkable to call them anything else. Many, many people in Northern Ireland today – unionist as well as nationalist – still consider themselves Irish (and it's still not illegal), so the fact that she spent much of her life in that part of the country does not change anything. The Katherine L. Brown article doesn't say anywhere that her nationality was British. AFBorchert quoted the sentence, "What of Fanny's Irishness?" It is not possible to discuss the "Irishness" of someone who was not Irish. The article in general makes it clear that CFA was Irish, albeit with pro-British views; see in particular p. 107. This article, by the same author, explicitly calls her an "Irish hymn writer"; this book does too. On Wikipedia we follow the sources, not what one editor thinks would be "accurate". Scolaire (talk) 11:26, 23 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
You must be aware that there has been centuries of conflict in Ireland and that Cecil Frances Alexander was on the side that identified as British or Anglo-Irish. You are wrong to say that there was no British nationality law in the nineteenth century. There was. There were British nationality acts at least as far back as the eighteenth century and I am specifically aware of one dated 1870. You can see it listed in the schedule on the last page of this site http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1914/17/pdfs/ukpga_19140017_en.pdf . CFA falls perfectly into the category known as Anglo-Irish. In fact she falls into it to the letter and so to identify her as Irish seems to me like one side in the conflict is appropriating credit for the achievements of somebody from the other side. Would you call an Englishman living in India in the nineteenth century "an Indian"? No. He'd be called an Anglo-Indian. If you don't want to refer to CFA as British then as a compromise I'm going to change it to Anglo-Irish as this best describes the situation to a reader who is unfamiliar with these matters. Centuryofconfusion (talk) 18:54, 23 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I am well aware that there has been centuries of conflict in Ireland and that Cecil Frances Alexander was one of the Irish people that identified with the British Empire. The rest of your arguments are just baffling so I'm not going to bother with them. I don't have a problem with calling her Anglo-Irish in the lead, but "Anglo-Irish" is not a nationality. Better to just delete the field. Other writers don't have it in their infoboxes. Scolaire (talk) 21:58, 23 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I think that's fair enough. I checked some encyclopaedias in the library and they don't state a nationality either. Centuryofconfusion (talk) 11:52, 24 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Between 1801 and 1922, Ireland was part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, therefore, Irish people were actually classed as British subjects. Irish nationality was not actually created until 1935. Between 1922 and 1935, Irish people were still classed as British subjects. Have a read at Irish nationality law. - (101.98.104.241 (talk) 00:02, 9 August 2018 (UTC))[reply]

Move from Cecil Frances Alexander to Cecil Alexander (hymnist)[edit]

DBD changed the article title from Cecil Frances Alexander to Cecil Alexander (hymnist) without prior discussion with the rationale common name, apparently in reference to WP:COMMONNAME. I disagree with this move as Cecil Frances Alexander used her full name herself in her publications (sometimes in the abbreviated form C. F. Alexander) and is commonly refered to using her full name. Some samples:

I suggest to move this article back to its original title, Cecil Frances Alexander, as this comes closest to WP:COMMONNAME. In addition, it is usually best to follow WP:PRECISE as well, in particular if this allows to avoid the qualifier per WP:QUALIFIER, point 1. This is then even to be prefered in cases where the title wouldn't be the most commonly used. --AFBorchert (talk) 17:30, 21 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I happily consent to reverting the move — you clearly know better on this and I bow to your better judgment. (In your last para, though, I object that using an un-common name is ever preferable to a qualifier; for instance, imagining Michael Jackson weren't by far and away the primary topic, he would certainly be Michael Jackson (singer) before Michael Joseph Jackson.) DBD 09:01, 24 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you, DBD, I've moved the article back to its original title. --AFBorchert (talk) 16:09, 24 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
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