Talk:Carmina Burana/Archive 1

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Archive 1

Copyright

What is the Copyright like on the Carmina as it is offered at the end of this page. Orff only died in the 80's bringing my doubt Lochok 05:31, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

Nothing Orff could have done could alter the public domain status of the medieval poems. Smerdis of Tlön 14:25, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
I guess it's not about the poems, but about the musical setting. If Lochok refers to "The complete Carl Orff setting of Carmina Burana in MIDI format" (in MIDI there are no poems, anyway), there might indeed be a problem - not so much for wikipedia, though, but for the owner of http://www.anthea2.freeuk.com/carminaburana/. --FordPrefect42 15:25, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
Yeah - that's what I was referring to - sorry if I was unclear. It will probably be fine anyway... (that said, it is the music industryLochok 11:09, 12 November 2005 (UTC)


Hecubam reginam?

Why does the ending of verse 2 refer to queen Hecuba?

I mean the part of the text that reads:

...
Fortune rota volvitur:
descendo minoratus;
alter in altum tollitur;
nimis exaltatus
rex sedet in vertice
caveat ruinam!
nam sub axe legimus
 Hecubam reginam.
 ...
I copy pasted the text from http://www.classical.net/~music/comp.lst/works/orff-cb/carmlyr.html

"Because under the axle, we see queen Hecuba." Hecuba was Priam's wife, and the queen of Troy when that city famously fell. As such, she was a symbol of falling from a high position into misery. A medieval tradition portrayed her as being driven mad by witnessing the deaths of her children. The symbol of the Wheel of Fortune, in medieval iconography, portrayed four figures; one ascending the wheel, marked "I will rule"; one atop the wheel, "I rule", another falling, "I used to rule," and one at the bottom, "I have no realm." Hecuba is here placed at the low point of the wheel. Smerdis of Tlön 07:02, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

Entartete Musik?

What's the source for the tale that Orff's setting was initially condemned as "entartete Musik" by critics? Everything I've read on the subject suggests that on the contrary his musical style was just what Dr Goebbels ordered. Wilus 11:52, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

Removed line

I have removed the following line:

"In many modern CDs mention is made of the paradox of having the innocent voices of boys singing some of the more lascivious pieces."

Firstly, regardless of psychological or moral views, this cannot qualify as a "self-contradictory statement or proposition, or a strongly counter-intuitive one" (OED). Perhaps the most conservative moralist may see something counter-natural in the combination of youth and lasciviousness - but this is certainly not an NPOV view. Secondly, it is simply untrue. Boys sing only 11 lines in the entire work (two groups of six, the latter of which are repeated several times). Here is text from the libretto supplied with a Berlin Philharmonic DVD version: 

15. (Boys)
Amor volat undique, 			Cupid flies everywhere
captus est libidine.			seized by desire.
Iuvenes, iuvencule			Young men and women
coniunguntur merito.			are rightly coupled.

(Soprano)
Siqua sine socio, 			The girl without a lover
caret omni gaudio;			misses out on all pleasures,
tenet noctis infima 			she keeps the dark night
sub intimo				hidden
cordis in custodia: 			in the depth of her heart;

(Boys)
fit res amarissima.			it is a most bitter fate.

And a little later in the same act: 

Oh, oh, oh, 				Oh! Oh! Oh!
totus floreo,				I am bursting out all over!
iam amore virginali 			With first love
totus ardeo,				I am burning all over!
novus, novus amor			New, new love 
est, quo pereo.			is what I am dying of!

I *think* the boys are simply a representation of cupid (typically represented as a boy). Tell me if I am wrong about all this. --Oldak Quill 11:42, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

There is a much older and darker tradition which this may be designed to invoke, not least in the choice of the Court in the Feast of Fools, a psychology which is most clearly portrayed in The Turn of the Screw. That was not simply a Henry James invention - he had the tale through Mary Sedgwick Benson from Charlotte Bronte, whose activities in Brussels in 1843-4 were on the edge of these circles. Certainly, Boniface of Lausanne's condemnation of the Rhineland German clerics, encouraged by the functionally Muslim Holy Roman Emperor Frederic II "Stupor Mundi" to decline into all forms of depravity, provides evidence for all forms of licentiousness, which may not have been just the Rhineland.
Cupid as an image really only dates from the Renaissance, although there is the Ovid argument.

The manuscript

From a former version:

The manuscript is now in the care of the Bibliotheca Augustana at the University of Augsburg, Germany.

Unfortunately, the Bibliotheca Augustana is a purely virtual library, existing only on this website: http://www.fh-augsburg.de/~harsch/augustana.html

As the Augustana ifself tells, the original manuscript is hold by the Bavarian State Library, Munich; its famous signature is clm 4660/4660a. - 80.184.146.105 22:56, 14 Sep 2004 (UTC)

The article had both

mostly in Latin, and some in Middle High German

and

Most are in Latin; a few are in a dialect of High German, and some mix the two languages

At the risk of discarding the more detailed version, i assumed "Middle" might be accurate or not, but High German would err only by imprecision. IMO anything more specific deserves documentation, in light of the previous inconsistency.
--Jerzy(t) 02:07, 2004 Nov 16 (UTC)

Er, if we accept that it's in High German and was written in the 14th century, then we don't have to look hard for evidence it's Middle High German: it is, because that's a catch-all characterisation of all High German dialects extant at that time. --Saforrest 06:26, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
If the Carmina were indeed written in the 14th century, the language would rather be Early New High German. But the poems are from the early 13th century latest, so they are clearly Middle High German. --FordPrefect42 15:54, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

Seperate Orff cantata from the Latin poems

The Orff cantata and the Latin poems are different things with the same title, and should each have their own page. -- Dmillman 18:26, 27 Aug 2005 (UTC)

Orff's Carmina Burana represent only a tiny part of the Carmina Burana based at Augsburg University. See website http://www.fh-augsburg.de

I was considering moving the Latin poems to the front of the article, or perhaps merging the two sections. No doubt most people looking for Carmina Burana are looking for the Orff cantata rather than the Latin poems. There are several recordings out there of attempts at reconstructing music from the neums present in some of the Latin manuscripts, though; I have one from Réné Clemencic; there's a better one out on Naxos from Ensemble Unicorn, and I've also heard one by Thomas Binkley that was quite good. -- IHCOYC 20:46, 14 Aug 2003 (UTC)
I support the separation of these pages. While obviously related, they are completely different entitiesMarkBuckles 11:18, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Pronunciation

I'm not sure if FordPrefect agrees with me, but I think it should be reverted back to his version. Using IPA notation, without additional explanation, seems to be the standard on wikipedia. If people don't understand it, they'll find out how to use it. That's what I've had to do. I think it's important to encourage people to learn new things, rather than allowing them to continue in their ignorance (i.e. of IPA). Carl.bunderson 16:22, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

Whether or not FordPrefect agrees with you, there is the question of whether others agree with you. I introduced pronunciation to the article in the first place just because the word carmina is usually pronounced incorrectly. It is not always desirable to give full pronunciation information: sometimes, as here, just the stress needs to be drawn attention to. Sometimes, also, the IPA version is hard to follow even for those who are pretty adept at it. Consider this, which someone put for acciaccatura: "(pronounced approximately [əˌtʃækə̆ˈtuˑɾə])", after I had given a rougher but understandable approximation for this woefully mistreated term. I don't think the (highly disputable) IPA rendering could help help many people at all! Nevertheless, I'll make no further objection here, if the consensus is that we are NOT to explain what calls for explanation, in a way that those needing the explanation can readily grasp. Noetica 00:24, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
Noetica, may I remind you, that it was you who started to insert full pronunciation information into the article instead of just explaining the stress? Or what else is your (also highly disputable) rendering pronounced roughly "CAR-mina Boo-RAH-na", with the stresses so placed; but full pronunciation? - All I am saying is, that if we have a standard in wikipedia, we should use it. And the stress is clearly indicated in IPA by the quote; every additional explanation is redundant. --FordPrefect42 00:47, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
Yeah, IPA is sort of a pain in the ass (admittedly) but it is the standard for Wikipedia. Carl.bunderson 02:18, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
FordPrefect, there is no need to remind me of anything. I gave what was clearly and explicitly rough guidance, as a vehicle for explaining the stress. The important message concerned the stress, I had thought. So now, what have we got? Some IPA (fine, and I now accept and understand the role of IPA in Wikipedia); and NO non-technical guidance concerning the stress, for those users who will need such information most. If you and Carl.bunderson think the IPA should be there, why did neither of you put it before? If you think it worthwhile to point out the stress in a comprehensible way, why is that now the very feature that is to be excised?
Carl.bunderson, you say I think it's important to encourage people to learn new things, rather than allowing them to continue in their ignorance (i.e. of IPA). Should we therefore have only untransliterated Greek, whenever Greek is to be dealt with? How about Arabic? Sanskrit? An encyclopaedia is not just a repository of learning; nor should it be a formidable and forbidding resource that only initiates can benefit from. Noetica 06:37, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
Noetica, I really appreciate your concerns about the proper pronunciation. The only thing I did after your first attempt, was changing it to the standard way Wikipedia offers, i.e. using IPA and putting it in the right place. Being not a native speaker of English, I was not aware there is a confusion about the pronunciation among English-speaking people. If you think additional information about the stress is helpful, I have no problems with that; it was not me who reverted your change. It is redundant, but it may indeed be helpful to some readers. I was just picking on you contradicting yourself regarding the need for "full pronunciation", no offense meant! Peace? ;-) --FordPrefect42 10:31, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
I'm all in favour of peace, FordPrefect. But now: what's the best compromise? I thought I had proposed one when I accepted the IPA, but added the explanation about the stress (redundancy being a feature of practically all effective human communication). I feel that, having identified the problem among English speakers, I have done and said all I reasonably can on this matter. I now leave it to others. If this means there is no guidance for the majority of users, so be it. Noetica 10:45, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
...But I must now add that changing the IPA pronunciation (which happened as I was writing the above) from [ˈkɑrmɪnɑ buˈrɑːnɑ] to ['karmina bu'raːna] seems to me to be simply wrong, at least with respect to [i] instead of [ɪ] (see here). It illustrates how hard these things are, and perhaps reinforces my point that, by themselves, such pronunciations can be of little use to most users, and even trip experts up sometimes. Noetica 11:53, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
I'm sorry if my comments caused any ill-will, Noetica. And I agree with your last comment...I'm rather unsatisfied with the current revision. I think the best (compromise) version we've come up with is your revision of 04.45 18 May. What do the two of you think about this? Carl.bunderson 17:27, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
Okay, okay, shame on me - but I never claimed IPA is that easy, at least not to actively transcribe in IPA. My own knowledge is a bit rusty in that respect, I am hoping for some peer review. Meanwhile I change it back to the alleged version myself, just revising the obvious errors from my first approach. I am not sure about [i] vs. [ɪ] myself right now, but I'll try to figure it out. --FordPrefect42 18:00, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Oh man, guys I apologize for changing the lead before I read all this - I was just revamping the whole article. I also felt there was no need to mention the accent again if its already in the IPA. Plus it breaks up the flow of the sentence. BUT, I don't mean to just go change things after all this discussion. I will say, that the book I have open right now Choral Masterworks by Michael Steinberg, says the accent is actually on the last syllable of Carmina. So. . . for whatever that's worth. Also, my understanding of Latin based on experience as a choral conductor, is that there is never [I] vowels, always pure [i] vowels. I'm not going to change anything further though for now. Best wishes. -MarkBuckles 03:05, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

Music based on Carmina Burana the poem and Carmina Burana the Orff

Some effort should be made to separate derivative works from choral productions of Orff's work (ie. electronic remixes like Apotheosis) and works derived directly from the poetry. This would most likely be distinguished if they were set to different music. As many of these titles and bands are obscure, this isn't as obvious as it seems. When I have more time I will attempt to contact the individual contributors of each bullet point in their talk page. --Vees 21:35, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Sarah Brightman

The Sarah Brightman reference doesn't belong here. What Sarah sings on "Timeless" (1997) is "In Trutina" from Carl Orff's version (http://www.xs4all.nl/~josvg/cits/sb/sb411.html) with the London Symphony Orchestra (not "The London Orchestra") Ogg 19:37, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Deleted. MarkBuckles (talk) 06:28, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

The Title

"Johann Andreas Schmeller assigned it that title (meaning "Songs of Beuren") in 1847 when he compiled it at the Benedictine abbey of Benediktbeuern in Bavaria."

So shouldn't it be "Songs of Beuern"?

--217.237.151.171 16:48, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC)

It is said by the commentarist of RNE-1 Fernando Argenta that the correct pronunciation of Carmina is Car'mina, not 'Carmina. "Carmina" is a latin word: carmĕn-ĭnis. Coronellian 11:37, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Rectify: 'Carmina is correct.Coronellian 13:17, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

English translations "distorted"?

The "External links" section is headed by this rather dubious statement: Translations in English are somehow distorted. Try to find a Spanish translation, if you know this language. Where in the world did this come from, and what is it doing in the article? --Tkynerd 15:29, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Anonymous contribution by User:67.123.110.70, cf. [1]. I would call the statement at least POV. --FordPrefect42 17:03, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
Thanks, and I see you also removed the statement. --Tkynerd 04:19, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Contradiction

Carmina Burana:

Many of the religious songs and several of the love songs and drinking songs are accompanied by neumes that suggest melodies.

Carmina Burana (Orff):

It is a common misconception that Orff based the melodies of Carmina Burana on neumeatic melodies; no such assigned melodies can be found in the Burana Codex.

(emphasis added)

--91.148.159.4 20:12, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

ACK, the Codex Buranus does certainly contain neumeatic melodies (see: Image:CarminaBurana wheel.jpg). I have changed that in the article about Orff's CB. --FordPrefect42 23:38, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Translation

Shouldn't "And her hosts give the girl/ The greatest songs of the gods" be instead "And throngs of virgins give songs to the greatest of gods"? Rwflammang 17:18, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Shouldn't dulcis modify Juliana and not tempore florenti? Rwflammang 17:30, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Suggestion

Wouldn't a table be more elegant in the section Musical Settings than a mish-mash of bullet points? RedRabbit (talk) 05:41, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Sounds like we have a volunteer. Carl.bunderson (talk) 06:31, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Suggestion for ballet productions to be included

Can someone with expertize research the ballets? It seems there are many different choreographies. Here are a few choreogaphies--Jurijus Smori­ginas,Royston Maldoom ,Xing Peng Wang http://www.criticaldance.com/reviews/2003/lithuaniancarmina_200302.html. John Butler http://www.criticaldance.com/reviews/2001/richmondballet-010220.html. Matthew Neenan, http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rls=com.microsoft%3Aen-us%3AIE-SearchBox&rlz=1I7RNWE&q=carmina+burana+choreography+ballet&btnG=Search; http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rls=com.microsoft%3Aen-us%3AIE-SearchBox&rlz=1I7RNWE&q=carmina+burana+choreography+ballet&btnG=Search Crystalhaidl70.208.76.71 (talk) 02:06, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Carl Orff has left the building

Per some of the discussion here, I have written a whole new article for Orff's Composition, Carmina Burana (Orff) and have hence moved all the links and info pertaining to that to the new page. I also added some info on Beuern, and beefed up the lead a bit, since there's no need to mention O Fortuna anymore, unless you guys disagree (open to suggestions of course). -MarkBuckles 02:59, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

...and yet a link lingers. Hmm. I don't feel comfortable moving it, so unless someone else can justify it... (It's the one from the teach-yourself-latin site, which only has the text used in Orff's piece.)Mogwit 03:17, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Well, currently we have no other site with a translation at all, so maybe it's better than nothing? Thoughts? MarkBuckles (talk) 06:24, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Under Musical settings of these texts, "Ray Manzarek (of The Doors) recorded an edited version of this piece with Philip Glass. This was released in 1983." should also be moved to the Orff page, yes? As this piece is a reference to Orff's piece and not to the texts. 129.241.206.31 (talk) 13:13, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Super Smash Brothers Brawl

I'm learning Carmina Burana with my my music class. My teacher played a movement from a later part of this, it turned outto bethetheme for SSBB. Is it possible to put a reference in? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.238.249.16 (talk) 09:08, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

translation project

I'm adding a boat load of new information translated from wikipedia in Germany over the next, uhm, week, maybe? It's actually a very time consuming project that I'm doing in my free time after work, so please bear with me. I'm aware that I have left the page slightly redundant and with footnotes still in German. I will get to that after I tackle what I consider the big project - adding a sizable portion of the really interesting content from the German page. I already have a rough translation done, so it shouldn't take forever. Wallers (talk) 04:03, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

There is disagreement between the English version and German version of Carmina Burana.

Currently the English version says the Carmina Burana consists of 6 sections -- Carmina ecclesiastica (songs on religious themes, Carmina moralia et satirica (moral/satirical songs), Carmina amatoria (love songs), Carmina potoria (drinking songs - also includes gambling songs and parodies), Ludi, Supplementum (versions of some of the earlier songs with textual variations.

The German version, however, says there are 4 sections -- 55 songs of morals and mockery (CB 1–55), 131 love songs (CB 56–186), 40 drinking and gaming songs (CB 187–226), and two longer spiritual theater pieces (CB 227 und 228).

I think we should prefer the German version over the English version both for practical reasons - the German version is far more detailed, including references, citations, and detailed discussion of the text (so a translation of that would make for a far better article than what we've got now) - and because the text is housed in Munich, so presumably most research and discussion of the text is written in German (so their version would cite research with more authority than what is available in English). Wallers (talk) 14:03, 13 April 2009 (UTC)


Tangled up in Blue

Is there a possibility that the manuscript is the subject of the verse in Bob Dylan's Tangled up in Blue?:

...
Then she opened up a book of poems
And handed it to me
Written by an Italian poet
From the thirteenth century.
And every one of them words rang true
And glowed like burnin' coal
...

I realise ... by an Italian poet... is not necessarily accurate, but it could be a poetic license simplification. 61.88.61.66 04:34, 11 October 2005 (UTC)


My guess is it could be the Decameron of Giovanni Boccaccio (1313-1375), though obviously the century would be wrong. Wikid 12:55, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

Well, The Decameron is not really a book of poems, but of novellas ... I rather would have guessed the poems of Francesco Petrarca, but the century is wrong as well (unless thirteenth century were a mistranslation of the Italian trecento). Dante Alighieri's Divine Comedy would be a candidate, too ... --FordPrefect42 13:15, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

There's really not enough information to identify it--all we have is a century and a nationality, and the fact that Bob Dylan likes the poems. Dante seems like a likely candidate, but we hardly have sufficient reason here to ignore either of the two bits of information Dylan has given us. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.71.239.204 (talk) 06:28, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

Peter Abelard

I have reinserted the following addition, please do not delete again, a long overdue attribution to Peter Abelard as the original author and Archpoet as will be clear to anyone familiar with the letters between Heloise and Abelard and from the insert:

A famous poet and composer of songs, active in the early Middle Ages, was the philosopher Peter Abelard (1079 - 1142). Abelard' son Astrolabe had a prebend in the monastery of Benediktbeuren, so it is very likely that the Carmina Burana began as a collection of his father's works. His relationship with the Goliards is well-known, the name probably going back to his debate with Saint Bernard of Clairvaux. Recently, Abelard's music has been performed again, by Schola Gregoriana, Cambridge, Mary Berry (conductor). hgwb (talk) 15:52, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

Please refrain from personal attacks in your edit summaries. Your first insertion of this material was removed because it was completely unsourced, and the edit summary said so (please read them before complaining about absent reasons).
I've corrected the spelling of your second attempt and added some tags, requiring sources, and removed the last, unrelated, sentence. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 05:49, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

"Most Popular"

"Carmina Burana remains one of the most popular pieces of music ever written." Is this sentence necessary? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Vincent860524 (talk • contribs) 07:00, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

/* History */ References for a statement ...

Many of the hymns were dedicated to Saint Catherine of Alexandria
(in German: Katharina von Alexandrien), who was venerated in Seckau,
for example CB 12* and 19* – 22*.[7]

My question is about the part "... who was venerated in Seckau ..."
I can't find this information neither in en:Catherine of Alexandria nor in de:Katharina von Alexandrien ?!
I'm asking, because having no access to this book of reference:
"Walter Bischoff (ed.), Carmina Burana I/3, Heidelberg 1970, p. XII; Walther Lipphardt, Zur Herkunft der Carmina Burana, in: Egon Kühebacher (ed.), Literatur und Bildende Kunst im Tiroler Mittelalter, Innsbruck 1982, 209–223."
Jaybear (talk) 17:53, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

Question about the lead/lede

In the second paragraph of the lead/lede, we read the following sentence:

"Most of the poems and songs appear to be the work of Goliards, clergy (mostly students) who set up and satirized the Catholic Church."

I have a question: What is "set up"? What does "set up" mean? It's not clear. It could mean, "set up" shop, so to speak, as performers, or "set up" [the Catholic church] as the butt of their jokes, or satire. I think this needs to be clarified or deleted. – CorinneSD (talk) 23:04, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

It looks like a typo for "sent up", though this is not particularly encyclopedic language. It also sounds a little redundant, though I suppose a send-up is not necessarily the same thing as satire. Some work on this is certainly in order. On the other hand, the conception of just what a Goliard is could use some clarification. The phrase "clergy (mostly students)" seems at least potentially self-contradictory: presumably students are preparing for something like the clergy. I have only just skimmed it, so perhaps I am not giving it a fair chance, but the article Goliard seems helpful only to a limited degree. There is a strong sense that the term mainly refers to whoever it was who wrote the poems in the Carmina Burana—therefore a circular definition, so far as this article is concerned.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 03:43, 3 January 2014 (UTC)
"set up" in this context triggers two associations with me: to trap or ensnare (see Wikt:set up); or a clumsy way of referring to "set to music". Still, it's probably best to remove it. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 07:29, 3 January 2014 (UTC)
I had also wondered about the vague definition of "Goliard". I also wondered about the various spelling of "Goliard" in the article on Goliard – sometimes capitalized, sometimes not – you might want to read the exchange regarding this at User talk:Rothorpe.
I notice that "Goliard" is capitalized in the middle of the section "Authors" in the article Carmina Burana. Following it is a bit of a definition for "Goliards and vagrants" (which seems more of a definition of Goliards than vagrants), which is actually a better definition than what is found in the article on Goliards).CorinneSD (talk) 17:38, 3 January 2014 (UTC)
Michael, your first association is the same as my second one, above. With your second association ("set to music"), that makes three possible meanings.CorinneSD (talk) 16:32, 3 January 2014 (UTC)
Now I remember the other question I had about the lead/lede. It is about this phrase:
"poems and dramatic texts mostly from the 11th or 12th century...."
The "or" in "the 11th or 12th century" makes it seem as if it is not known whether the texts were written in the 11th or in the 12th century, but later in the article it says that some pieces were written in the 12th century. That implies that other texts were possibly written in the 11th century. Shouldn't this be written, "poems and dramatic texts mostly from the 11th and 12th centuries"? Or, if most of them were definitely written in the 12th century, then "11th century" could be added to the phrase that follows, "although some are from the 11th and 13th centuries".CorinneSD (talk) 17:47, 3 January 2014 (UTC)
The question of dates should be referred to a reliable source. My guess is that the dating of the texts is uncertain. Perhaps these dates can be narrowed only to within the period between November 1098 and June 1102 ;-) There seems to be a generous selection of sources listed here. Surely one or another of them would provide the answer?—Jerome Kohl (talk) 18:29, 3 January 2014 (UTC)
  • Two years later, I come to this page to ask about "set up"! Removing it now. —Tamfang (talk) 08:50, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

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