Talk:Cara Cunningham/Archive 7

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References

Resolved

 – YouTube refs are used according to policy, any further specific claims can be cited with the "fact" tag if needed. Banjeboi 23:29, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

Numerous unreferenced claims are made in this article. The references needed tag should remain. 90 references or not. Clearly 90 references do NOT cover all the claims made in this entry. Any long article can have even hundreds of references i.e. Hillary Clinton but unreferenced claims must still be supported.Myheartinchile (talk) 07:17, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

I would rather you state what needs sourcing and or use the {{fact}} to what need sourcing. No use tagging an article without knowing what needs to be sourced. Bidgee (talk) 07:33, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. I had vetted everything up until a few months ago so would be happy to confirm or, if needed, remove anything that isn't true. Banjeboi 01:33, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Brittany Spears comments

Resolved

 – Spear's comments via anonymous third person not considered WP:RS in this instance. Banjeboi 23:30, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

Are very notable and important since this dudes claim to fame is defending her. The justification that she was "crazy" when she said that is silly and OR. There is no unbias way of keeping it out. US Magazine is a legitimate third party source.Myheartinchile (talk) 07:17, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

It's trivial. Read the story. "a Spears pal tells Us." which means the source isn't reliable as this is the only site which has this and it doesn't state who said it so it's just a he said she said situation. Bidgee (talk) 07:30, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

well it can say, according to US Magazine, sources close to BS have stated that according to BS she thinks x of Chris Crocker. I think we need more opinions on this subject. Furthermore how do you know thats the only place its been stated, how bout we both try and look into that and regroup here a latter time?Myheartinchile (talk) 20:25, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm open to reliable sources if there are any - frankly they both are accomplished at getting media attention and I'm pretty sure that Spears isn't interested in giving Crocker any more attention by discussing him. If there are reliable sources then please post it here so we can sort out how to deal with it. Banjeboi 01:36, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

US Magazine isn't a reliable source?Myheartinchile (talk) 22:16, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

US Magazine can be a reliable source but as pointed out above "It's trivial. Read the story. "a Spears pal tells Us." which means the source isn't reliable as this is the only site which has this and it doesn't state who said it so it's just a he said she said situation." Gossipy items are almost never considered reliable or appropriate for encyclopedic use. Banjeboi 23:51, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

This sentence needs some serious work.

Almost all of Crocker's work has been attributed to his being an openly gay and effeminate Southern adolescent in a "small-minded town" in the Bible Belt where his sexual orientation and outspokenness are a "subtext... rarely addressed directly and never completely accepted.

The citations do not assert "work" what works? What does his video have to do with him being gay? They are about him being hysterical about that psycho Brittany's embarrassing behavior and the criticism and mocking she received due to it. What does the video have to do with him being effeminate? or Southern? "Small minded town" is very libelous and is conjecture and opinion and should not link to intolerance, this is not cited. Where is it reliably sourced that the Bible Belt and his small town have rarely address and don't accept his outspokenness. What outspokenness? He speaks out around town about Brittany Spears?Myheartinchile (talk) 00:36, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Crocker had, of that writing produced at least 60-70 vlogs, his "work", and the sentence is accurate and supported by the many interviews with him. In context of all his work the Britney videos were a small portion but the main one got picked up internationally as was his "breakout" vlog. I think the article pretty clearly explains that. Banjeboi 01:40, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Those 60-70 vlogs are not notable and were not reffered to in the citations given. "many" interviews? Which ones are those? His pastime of producing videos is irrelevant filler, only the Brittney video has any notability, the rest are patent nonsense and not mentioned in any other source by name, only in passing in the likes of "oh yeah he made some other videos too". The article does no such thing. Also you have very serious POV issues since you are Chris Crocker.Myheartinchile (talk) 03:38, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Actually several of those vlogs were specifically discussed and those references are in the article itself. There was some discussion when the most notable video came out that the article should be about that video only but consensus was that Crocker himself had become notable and the article would stay focussed on him and a second article only about that video wasn't needed. The article is about the person and, in context to their notability, discusses the video. I'm not sure I would support two separate articles but that's certainly worth considering. Labeling his work as "irrelevant filler", etc falls under I don't like it - note that Wikipedia isn't censored so it may be more to your benefit to find articles about subjects you do like and contribute to those. Banjeboi 04:02, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

real name and birthplace

Resolved

 – Multiple RS needed for this information. When we have them we can add it. Banjeboi 23:32, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

why are these missing? —Preceding unsigned comment added by WillyJulia (talk • contribs) 15:02, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

Yo may want to read this (Do No Harm and reasons to leave out Crocker's private info (for now at least)) which is in the talk page archive. Bidgee (talk) 15:06, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

ya but all celebrities get death threats and stalkers, what makes this guy different? —Preceding unsigned comment added by WillyJulia (talk • contribs) 15:14, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

Disagree that "all celebrities get death threats and stalkers" although many do. The subject of the article has made obvious attempts to keep their identity private and we need to abide by that until multiple reliable sources confirm his identity. He gets near-daily death threats and our job is not to discern which are real or otherwise We take WP:BLPs and death threats seriously. Banjeboi 21:06, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

if they made many attempts to keep their identity private then why do they still upload videos of themselves and do interviews?--WillyJulia (talk) 15:39, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

Please stop trying to see if you're right on who he is and where his from! It's not helping to improve the article and it's also ready been stated why. Bidgee (talk) 21:25, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

WillyJulia you're headed for a block if you persist in disruptive editing and challenging policies on biographies of living people. Banjeboi 00:44, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

A warning for a block is completely unwarranted all this user is doing is discussing their concerns, you should back off and be more polite. As for the real name it should be included, all celebrities do get threatened all the time, but if there are no RS we can't put in his real name and location even if there are no threats.Myheartinchile (talk) 01:17, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Actually they have posted other items that I was referring to and this was more of a word of advice rather than a warning on their talk page. I believe an admin has stepped in to give a less involved take on the situation directly to them. And no, not all celebrities get death threats and yes, we really do need reliable sourcing to add the information on this bio since we know death threats are involved. Banjeboi 09:42, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

why you use him as a source so much THIS IS NOT A GOOD ARTICLE

why you use him as a source? he loves attention to create a stir so makes up rubbish like kissing his boyfriend is one example. so why use him as a source so much in the article?--WillyJulia (talk) 10:20, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

• why does it say he has the 18th most viewed channel? everyone knows views can be easily faked and bought.
• a blog says hes from tennesse why don't you add it?
• "According to his MySpace profile, Crocker lives in Los Angeles as of January 2008." you using his myspace profile as a source in the opening paragraph?..
• no real name or birth place

there is so much trivial fan cruft crap in this article, it must have been written mostly be his followers.--WillyJulia (talk) 10:52, 12 June 2008 (

To answer your questions:

1. His own work is used as a reference not for critical commentary per policies.
2. If you have a reliable source that says YouTube views can be faked then please post it here so others can also see if the content has merit.
3. Blogs are generally not reliable sources and certainly not for this information.
4. We are citing the MySpace profile in the same sentence to qualify it, he published that info correct or not, we are simply stating the fact that his website says so.
5. Just for you I'll state that I am arguably the main author of most of the article and no, I'm not a fan or follower. Banjeboi 11:40, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

There's no reason to remove an external link from a talk page, unless it contains problematic content; i.e. a source about a living person could be unreliable and still not be problematic. El_C 11:59, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

The link was being used to establish that someone was Crocker, whether or not it was Crocker we should err on the cautious side when identifying anyone as Crocker as he gets death threats daily. The link was either identifying the correct person as Crocker or someone else as him, either way it's not helpful as a reliable source for identifying someone here. The news portion of the article linked doesn't offer anything that isn't in the article already so the rest is blog chats which are not considered reliable sources. Banjeboi 12:39, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

And to clarify, I do think the blog chats were problematic. Banjeboi 12:44, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

He is from East Tennessee

A few comments here. First, WillyJulia, saying that Benjiboi has a "big crush" on Crocker is an ad hominem attack and could fall under Wikipedia's No Personal Attacks policy. You are walking on thin ice here.

Secondly, please be aware of Wikipedia's policies regarding Biographies of Living Persons, and why we are very careful to use this information. Please do not include this information in any more edit summaries, and be careful of what you say even in the Talk page. We do not want to be responsible for death threats against a real person!!

Lastly, I'd like to offer my opinion: Crocker's state of origin does indeed appear to be very public knowledge, and I do not see a problem including it in the article. Crocker's real name does not appear to be as commonly known, and since he has made clear his desire to keep it secret, I am opposed to including that in the article.

And I would reiterate, Please do not repeat his real name or his state of origin on the Talk page until consensus is reached. Thank you. --Jaysweet (talk) 15:36, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Just search google his name with Tennessee and there is many reliable sources! i wont provide link to search as you guys just keep removing it. you can also click the link at top of page in the This page has been mentioned by a media organization. The mention is in: BOX its the bottom one, but i cant put it here because you remove that too.--WillyJulia (talk) 23:39, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

As you may guess a Google search itself is also not a reliable source, the link to the article you mention says "reportedly lives with his grandmother in a small town in Tennessee" which isn't helpful. i did, however find another article which states Tennessee so I'll add that in. Banjeboi 00:24, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

Correction. The article already has that he is Tennessee-based so it seems like that's covered. Banjeboi 00:25, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

Weezer's Pork and Beans

Resolved

 – content added w/refs. Banjeboi 18:33, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

Crocker is amongst the viral video star's in Weezer's "Pork and Beans" video. Not critical to add but it likely should be included at some point. Banjeboi 00:44, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

its already there--WillyJulia (talk) 10:17, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

I've added refs to it. Banjeboi 18:33, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

Gay/Lesbian Template?

Resolved. LGBT template removed as it's for the articles mentioned in template not all LGBT-related articles. Banjeboi 22:28, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

What in the hell is that Gay/Lesbian table thing being on the bottom on the page? Sure, he's gay, but has nothing to do with those gay and lesbian things. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wikistonecolddragon (talk • contribs) 17:29, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. Removed. Banjeboi 22:28, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Danity Kane "Damaged"

Resolved. Video added with refs. Banjeboi 18:51, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

This is Chris' latest video. It's been up for less than a week and is going to break a 1,000,000. It needs to be added on the article. It's also notable since he shows his pubic region and he's purposely dancing suggestively to incite reaction. Also, this video has already got more views than the actual single itself. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.227.85.117 (talk) 01:44, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Lol. He's special, I'll give him that. We might consider bundling this in some way with the "Watch it" video which sounds about the same theme. Several videos have topped over the two million mark so we certainly could look to adding a few. Benjiboi 02:43, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

comedian?

how is he a comedian? his youtube channel is director--WillyJulia (talk) 05:24, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

His YouTube channel classification may be currently director but those classifications change and may have more to do with someone's positioning their channel within YouTube - being the top director, for instance, verses being a much lower ranked comedian as there is more competition for that category. Numerous cited sources refer to his comic talents and satiric style. Although you or I may not find it funny, as humor can certainly be subjective, he is still considered a comedian or comic actor. Banjeboi 05:37, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

so he is both a comedian and an actor? i thought he was just being his dramatic self most of the time--WillyJulia (talk) 05:51, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

What you or I see or think we see in his work is one thing, what we need to do in the articles is supply what reliable sources report. If we have, for example, a source that says he was being "his dramatic self" then we need to compare that with other reliable sources to see what they state and report the same. You may see that we indeed have been pretty critical of him as the sources have been but we also balance it out, I think, with other statements to explain where the subject's POV is and possible motivations. When in doubt we try to present all sides in due porportion and let the reader decide what to think. Was he acting or was this one video his emotional "dramatic self". Banjeboi 06:10, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

tv offer?

did he get two tv offers or get one and turn it down?--WillyJulia (talk) 05:25, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

I think there has been quite a few although there was a reality show series to be based in Tennessee that he turned down or postponed it also may be the same one that he apparently turned down do to censorship concerns. Banjeboi 05:40, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

grandparents

his grandparents cant go to church anymore[1] shouldn't this be in the article somewhere?--WillyJulia (talk) 05:37, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Possibly, although the focus needs to remain on him. This could show the strong negatively impacting reactions he has has gotten in the past. Banjeboi 05:42, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Selected Works or Videos

Chris Crocker has another username on YouTube in which he posts videos that are no mentioned. These videos mentioned are under his "itsmechriscrocker" name. He nows posts videos under his "chriscrockerresponds" username. You could also make note of them. Mr. C.C. (talk) 18:15, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Could you post a link here to the YouTube channel you think is his? Banjeboi 20:00, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

I sincerely hope you're kidding.

Before you even think this is "gaybashing," I wish to note that I identify as bisexual and am presently in a committed same-sex relationship.

This article should not be here. Admittedly, this is in part due to my personal feelings on the subject, however. This is just ridiculous. Crocker got fifteen minutes of fame from making a complete ass of himself on the most public form of communication. Do we really want to reward that? Hell, he got a TELEVISION OFFER for his ludicrous behavior. What does this say about American culture? What does this say about what the American society has become? That we REWARD those who go out of their ways to humiliate themselves in such a public manner? This is precisely the kind of thing that makes the rest of the world feel we've lost our moral compass.

And quite frankly, we have.

I would not take as much offense to this article if it were more like its ED counterpart, but the fact of the matter remains. Crocker is not a part of any sort of solution for the GBLT community. He takes advantage of inquisitive human nature to garner page views, which he then slaps some math onto, claims internet popularity, and does not provide content that stimulates any real lasting thought for change for the way the community is viewed. "Best video EVER!" was nothing but ego stroking. "Eat my cornhole" was puerile. And while you may claim other videos make up for this, quite frankly, a low that low cannot be made up for when you're trying to affect a change in a way of thinking. It's like claiming while Stalin was killing millions of his detractors, he was doing wonders for national security.

Do you REALLY want to immortalize someone who's only real claim to fame is crying over the internet, more likely than not half-fabricating claims that a celebrity was being exploited and run into the ground by a record company?

Things like this only further ruin the shattered credibility this website maintains. Nearly all of the college professors I've spoken with strongly urge against even touching this website when it comes to research. Ostensibly due to the ability everyone has to freely edit it, but I'm sure that articles like this further ruin their faith.

Oh yes, yes, the internet is serious business. And mayhaps I'm taking this too seriously. However this is but one of many examples of what is wrong with this generation. My generation. And I tire of sitting back and watching.

But then, should this article be changed or removed, Offspring's Americana wouldn't be as true-to-home.

"Where culture's defined by the world's least refined and you'll get left behind if you don't fit in." FaustianReprieve (talk) 10:12, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for sharing but please refrain from such posts per WP:Talk. If you want to help improve the article please do so, if you think it should be deleted you can try but I doubt it will happen. Banjeboi 00:03, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

How about a compromise. Cut the thing down to a 2 sentence article. Devoting 100+ footnoted multi-section page is more like boosterism of a very non-notable person.TCO (talk) 16:29, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Interesting proposal but that hardly seems like any compromise at all. I would have to say opposed on that basis. We have extensive articles on subjects I don't care for and very short ones on subjects I do like. This doesn't mean they have to change or are more or less important - it's simply a reflection of where they are at now. Articles are always being expanded and improved. Even the ones at WP:Featured article. Banjeboi 22:31, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Tila Tequila/See Also

Why is she listed under the "See Also" section? They are two very different people.(and for that matter became famous in different ways, one being YouTube and the other being Playboy and Strip Clubs) Besides that, Chris Crocker and JStar are similar in a couple of ways, and have had a relationship. I believe that merits Jeffree Star a place in that section. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.99.229.121 (talk) 04:16, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

The See also section is for related articles that when appropriate should be added into the regular text. Tila Tequila is another LGBT Internet celebrity, Jeffree Star is already in the article. Banjeboi 07:11, 26 August 2008 (UTC)