Talk:Bona Malwal

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Bona Malwal/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Czarking0 (talk · contribs) 04:43, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for your time. I am not sure how familiar are you with GA review but for quick fail there are specific categories which I do not think your comment indicates which one you upheld. Once an article jumps the hoop of “quick fail”, then you need to provide detailed assessment and give me chance to response or fix the article.

The whole process aims to improve articles that are close to GA through collaboration between the nominator and the reviewer. By failing the article without this process, you might have robbed both of us from learning from each other.

I have read your comments and below is why I contest some of them

• “no detail about the goals, difficulties, or successes of his endeavors.” This not for me to do. I cannot make a statement like that if not included in the sources. Check WP:OR. also consider the availability of sources when recommending such a substantial improvement
• “Malwal and Abel Alier continued to broadcast the news from Juba instead from Omdurman" this is not grammatically correct”, how? What is the grammatical problem here? Please explain. I might not be a native speaker but I think I know my way around forming a coherent sentence.you should also suggest solutions not only problems, see Wikipedia:Reviewing good articles#Mistakes to avoid in reviews
• "Malwal authored many books including "Sudan and South Sudan: From One to Two" in 2015, which considered as his political memoir" This is not grammatically correct. I assume it should be "is considered" but that raises the question by whom? See MOS:ALLEGED” .. again what is the grammatical problem?

And the policy you cited does not fit here, there are no allegations here. You may be refereing to WP:WEASEL which might apply if the topic is contentious

• It failed being stable because “This is biography of the living person but he is very old. I expect he will die soon and then this will need to be updated.” that does not follow any policy! Actually it is against policy. It is called crystal balling
• fails image because “No images. I expect it may be difficult to find appropriate ones but I'd like the editors to indicate that they tried”. That is not a reason to fail. Please cite policies especially if you are going to fail something/
• "Also if you say that a person became something during a period of years it implies there is uncertainty about when they took on the role." no it does not. Saying that some worked between x and y is saying just that. That is a difference in style and is not a cause to fail articles. see Wikipedia:Good article nominations/Instructions
• ""he resigned in protest against the shift to Sharia law" This sentence is uncited." actually is cited!

FuzzyMagma (talk) 07:58, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

@Czarking0 you need to engage with these comments even if you do not agree with them. It is part of the process FuzzyMagma (talk) 11:31, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

@FuzzyMagma Hi, I think this is an important and under appreciated topic that deserves more attention. Thank you for your authorship and your attention to my GA review. Given your response I think it would be best if other editors assume my responsibility in this review. You seem to have a good understanding of the GA process. I still believe you should follow my suggestions, but in any case you may open a new GA review and I will refrain from reviewing this article further including failing it. Czarking0 (talk) 21:21, 6 March 2024 (UTC)

@Czarking0 Thanks and actually we don not need another reviewer unless we reached a point when we are citing conflicting policies. Then you can request a third opinion using the GA tool or go to WP:3O (as I just did).

Look, I requested the review and thank you for doing it. Take a look to Wikipedia:Reviewing good articles#Mistakes to avoid in reviews and if you still think that this article need extensive work, then let's call it a day and I will try to fix the article and re-nominate it.

I fixed most of what I understood, however, as it stands, I really do not get what do I need to fix as some of your suggestions contradict policies, provide problems with no solutions, and sometimes very vague (all listed above).

I hope you can help me. FuzzyMagma (talk) 11:43, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

Regarding the third opinion request, I think the proper forum is the GA talk page, but if they tell you a 3O is appropriate, I am happy to provide one. voorts (talk/contributions) 16:10, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

I came to look at this from the link at WT:GAN, and I have not thoroughly reviewed the article but I do have a couple of comments:

• Czarking0 is correct about the two grammatical errors they pointed out that you questioned; they are fairly minor issues but they are clearly there. I see various other issues in the article of a similar kind (e.g. He again became member the national assembly between 1974 and 1978 should read ... became a member of the national assembly ...).
• I also agree with Czarking0 about the strange use of the word "became" in this article. "became a member of the national assembly between 1974 and 1978" means that he started being a member at some point between those dates; I'm pretty sure the article intends to say that he "was a member of the national assembly from 1974 to 1978".
• I do not think that Czarking0 is applying the stability criterion correctly; this is about edit warring, not about whether the article will need to be updated in the future.
• About images: I do not think we can or should penalise an article for not including images unless the reviewer can point to existing images which are PD or freely-licensed and would improve the article.

I would not have immediately failed the article and I do not agree with Czarking0's comments on images or article stability, but their other criticisms do seem to be valid. For a full review there is technically no requirement to give the nominator the opportunity to fix issues, but unless it's quick fail-able the reviewer should assess all of the criteria in the review – including sourcing and neutrality, which they have not yet done. Caeciliusinhorto (talk) 15:11, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

@Caeciliusinhorto thank you for the third opinion. You are the third reviewer to claim stability is only about edit wars. I acknowledge that I was applying that criteria too broadly. I think you also make a fair point about the images. If I had not quick failed this I would have spent more time on that. @FuzzyMagma I looked through a bunch of your GA articles and you are clearly a serious editor. I hope you feel like I am doing my best. I still think this deserves quick fail (or at least did at the time I made that decision) for the writing and coverage issues I pointed out. If you wish to take those on, then I would hope you open a new GA review and if you wish I will review and potentially pass it at the time. At the very least, I will not quick fail it without your agreement. If on the other hand, you feel like this article is best served by the attention of editors other than myself, I will not be offended. Czarking0 (talk) 01:07, 10 March 2024 (UTC)

@Czarking0 no worries, hope the discussion was useful for you, as it was for me. I will re-nominate the article then. TC FuzzyMagma (talk) 09:50, 10 March 2024 (UTC)

Rate	Attribute	Review Comment
1. Well-written:
	1a. the prose is clear, concise, and understandable to an appropriately broad audience; spelling and grammar are correct.	Journalistic career section is almost a restatement of the summary. It reads as a timeline with no detail about the goals, difficulties, or successes of his endeavors. It is not clear what an information officer is "He hails from the Dinka ethnic group " people do not hail from ethnic groups "Malwal and Abel Alier continued to broadcast the news from Juba instead from Omdurman" this is not grammatically correct
	1b. it complies with the Manual of Style guidelines for lead sections, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list incorporation.	"Malwal authored many books including "Sudan and South Sudan: From One to Two" in 2015, which considered as his political memoir" This is not grammatically correct. I assume it should be "is considered" but that raises the question by whom? See MOS:ALLEGED "In his early years, He became an information officer in Wau between 1951 and 1961" You already gave the years you don't need to say that it was the early years. Also if you say that a person became something during a period of years it implies there is uncertainty about when they took on the role. I assume you are trying to instead say that he served in that role for the duration of the aforementioned period. The Political Career section is odd to have the single sentence before the Nimeiri Era. Especially since he later re-enters the national assembly which is not obvious if the Nimeiri section is overlooked
2. Verifiable with no original research:
	2a. it contains a list of all references (sources of information), presented in accordance with the layout style guideline.	"he resigned in protest against the shift to Sharia law" This sentence is uncited.
	2b. reliable sources are cited inline. All content that could reasonably be challenged, except for plot summaries and that which summarizes cited content elsewhere in the article, must be cited no later than the end of the paragraph (or line if the content is not in prose).	there are sufficiently many problems with the writing that Czarking0 (talk) 04:43, 21 February 2024 (UTC) did not do a review of the sources
	2c. it contains no original research.
	2d. it contains no copyright violations or plagiarism.
3. Broad in its coverage:
	3a. it addresses the main aspects of the topic.	"Malwal completed a diploma in journalism from Indiana University in 1963, followed by a bachelor degree in economics and a Master of Arts in journalism and communications both from Columbia University in 1969" Does he have any writing on the impact of his education on his career or outlook? This is very little info for a significant period of his life "The Vigilant was closed down in May 1969 following Jaafar Nimeiry's 1969 Sudanese coup d'état.[14] In March 1974" There is a five year gap here 1969-1972 there is a three year gap
	3b. it stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style).
	4. Neutral: it represents viewpoints fairly and without editorial bias, giving due weight to each.	Czarking0 (talk) 04:43, 21 February 2024 (UTC) Did not review for neutrality due to sufficiently many other issues
	5. Stable: it does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute.	This is biography of the living person but he is very old. I expect he will die soon and then this will need to be updated.
6. Illustrated, if possible, by media such as images, video, or audio:
	6a. media are tagged with their copyright statuses, and valid non-free use rationales are provided for non-free content.	No images. I expect it may be difficult to find appropriate ones but I'd like the editors to indicate that they tried
	6b. media are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions.
	7. Overall assessment.

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Bona Malwal/GA2. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Czarking0 (talk · contribs) 05:53, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

thanks for re-reviewing the article, I will try to amend for your comment as you post them. FuzzyMagma (talk) 19:32, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

one thing to bare in mind, Sudan is not the US when it comes to coverage. Even now, it is really hard to get any information, if does not relate to war or massacre. The sources listed in the article, is almost any and every article that mentioned Malwal, ever. I have even read Malwal autobiography but there he still focused on his opinion of the events, and not what was going on the ground.

There is also some trivia that I excluded, like the time Malawal saved Ibrahim El-Salahi from execution after the 1975 Sudanese coup attempt, which I could not include to keep the article focus FuzzyMagma (talk) 20:22, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for calling that out I will certainly keep that in mind. I think if this captures all the available material it can certainly be considered good Czarking0 (talk) 01:44, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for your understanding. Please see my reply below in green and I took the liberty to delete what I though I have solved (feel free to double check)

I think I have covered most of your comments and waiting for you to conduct further reviews and indicate where your concerns was resolved and where you think I need to do better. Thanks to your comment the article size has increased by 20%

again, thanks for taking the time to re-do this FuzzyMagma (talk) 09:37, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

I moved the review forward a bit. I wonder if there are more sources on his government duties in arabic texts or another language but I do not speak any that will be of use here. Czarking0 (talk) 21:15, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

I added more details from Arabic sources, although one of them mentioned a different year of birth!. I also included a section about Jieng Council of Elders FuzzyMagma (talk) 21:22, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

Made a comment on one of the sources not being reliable. I am slowly getting through all the new changes Czarking0 (talk) 03:20, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

responded and take your time, generally there is no deadline on Wikipedia .. FuzzyMagma (talk) 09:49, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

I responded to that. I also wanted to point you toward this source which is in polish so it probably is not too helpful for us but it does cite some English sources. Part of the value of this review I think is some source material discovery. I think the Sudan project could benefit from some tips on sourcing.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/335728266_Jieng_Council_of_Elders_a_parallel_government_in_South_Sudan Czarking0 (talk) 01:54, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

have a look when you have tie and thanks for these insights. FuzzyMagma (talk) 19:31, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

Rate	Attribute	Review Comment
1. Well-written:
	1a. the prose is clear, concise, and understandable to an appropriately broad audience; spelling and grammar are correct.	"As a journalist, Malwal's began as an Information Officer in Wau from 1951 to 1961." Starting a sentence with two prepositional phrases sounds bad. Doubly so if the preposition is the same in the two phrases. 'As' in this case. "Apart from his political engagements, Malwal worked as a senior research fellow at the Columbia University,[18] and senior research fellow (1978-1979)[2] and visiting academic at St. Antony's College, University of Oxford as part of the Sudanese Programme.[19] " This sentence doesn't make sense. My guess is that it should only say senior research fellow once? "Additionally, among many books, Malwal authored" pick one adverb or preposition to start the sentence. I think starting with the adverb and burying the preposition sounds best. " became a minister between May 1973 to 1978" another case of incorrect use of "became" " Nimeiry was able to rally the nation via Radio Juba and his government was narrowly saved after a column of army tanks entered the city." Not clear whose side the tanks are on here. "Malwal did not join the Sudan People's Liberation Movement (SPLM) since its founding in 1983." 'Since' does not make sense here "But he recon" don't start sentences with conjunctions
	1b. it complies with the Manual of Style guidelines for lead sections, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list incorporation.	The Political Career section is odd to have the single sentence before the Nimeiri Era. There is certainly more of note to say. How was he elected? Who ran against him? How much did he win by? What did he run on? Who supported him? When we was dismissed was that normal? Who else was dismissed alongside him? What did he do during office? Did he give any notable speeches or sponsor bills? again, this is Sudan, it is tough to find information online about revolutions let alone a member of the parliament, but I tried to find more but could not find more details "After he was released, he fled to the UK and the US, where he opposed Sadiq al Mahdi's government and testified in front the US Congress about Slavery in Sudan in 1987.[31]" This sentence covers two events which are three years apart and it should be split into two. "He also stood for election for" not clear whom 'He' refers to here. I think Jieng Council of Elders should have its own page and here we can just say that Bona Malwal is a member of the council. Unless there are notable things that he did on the council that should be specifically called out. done
2. Verifiable with no original research:
	2a. it contains a list of all references (sources of information), presented in accordance with the layout style guideline.	Team, Editorial (1 July 2015). "Jieng Council of Elders leading figure wanted by Juba Court for failing to pay Hotel bills". Nyamilepedia. Archived from the original on 8 May 2021. Retrieved 18 March 2024. Is not a reputable source how did you come to this conclusion? could not find any thing that support this assertion. Radio Tamazuj, Radio Dabanga, Sudan Tribune, Sudans Post, Nyamilepedia and Paanluel Wel Media are the main active news outlet in South Sudan, see VOA and Human Rights Watch. I understand that you might not like how they write but I never used Nyamilepedia in isolation but rather when they converge our supplement. These are news outlet constantly harassed by the government so I am not sure why are you dismissing them. I tried to see what Ground News says about Nyamilepedia but unsurprisingly there is nothing, yet. I cited the UNMISS press release. Follow the link for my reasoning. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Czarking0 (talk • contribs) 01:51, 21 March 2024 (UTC)  Done .. sorry missed the source. Removed any text that is sources to Nyamilepedia. Well spot! "he resigned in protest against the shift to Sharia law" Book citations should have page numbers. What is verifiable here that he resigned or that it was in protest? both "In March 2009, al-Bashir became the first sitting head of state to be indicted by the ICC, for allegedly directing a campaign of mass killing, rape, and pillage against civilians in Darfur." This failed verification. Also is it really still "allegedly" when the charges were introduced 15 years ago? I would think this is resolved. ICC charges are very notable and the resolution should be mentioned. Malwal's opposition to the charges was mentioned. What about his reaction to the outcome? removed allegedly, and mentioned the indictment. However, no source for Malwal -additional- reaction following that What is up with there being multiple birth dates? He does not know when he was born? not for me to comment that why I shared the information with the sources with the reader. all of these came from good sources but I put the one that is cited frequently. There is also a dispute about where he studied "He is from the Dinka ethnic group and is the son of a Gogrial Dinka chief." Is marked with the source: Deng, Francis Mading (2022). A Personal Perspective on the Ngok-Twic Conflict in Abyei (Report). Sudd Institute. Searching this doc I see no mention of Bona Malwal or Gogrial. What is up with that? that is actually not true, The Guardian article verify this information. The source you mentioned, include a mention about Malawal where it states "... Madut Ring, the father of Bona Malwal and then Chief of Kuac (Twic), ...". Gogrial contains Twic
	2b. reliable sources are cited inline. All content that could reasonably be challenged, except for plot summaries and that which summarizes cited content elsewhere in the article, must be cited no later than the end of the paragraph (or line if the content is not in prose).	Books should have page citations  Done This source needs page citations: Galander, Mahmoud M. (2001). Mass Media in Sudan: Towards History of Media-politics Interplay. IIUM Press. ISBN 978-983-9727-22-7. this is an article from the International Islamic University Malaysia Communication in the Muslim World Occassional paper series but I removed the source as I lifted this sentence from The Vigilant article. This source needs page citations: Johnson, Douglas Hamilton (2003). The Root Causes of Sudan's Civil Wars. International African Institute. ISBN 978-0-85255-392-3.  Done it is included. as this book is used twice, I added the page number using template after the citation, for example in the paragraph at start of the "Political career" section "The JCE is often accused of being behind hardline SPLM policies". I took this quote from your second source to mean JCE is anti-SPLM? "According to the official, those who ousted Machar were “self-interest” groups who intend to destroy the SPLM/A-IO leadership." I don't think its fair to say they are often accused when neither of these sources say that, there are only two of them, and they are both talking about the same incidence. I think a better summary would be "the JCE was behind the ousting of former government officials connected to former Vice President Machar (bluetext). They claim to advance these policies in the name of peace and the prosperity of the Dinka people in South Sudan". JCE is pro SPLM and anti SPLM-IO. There are three sources including openDemocracy but let me think of a better summary sorry I am not too familar with Sudanese politics so I did not understand the distinction. I think it’s irrelevant now since I moved the JCE to a separate page as you requested This source is an opinion piece which is not disclosed in the article text: Ettore, Alma Ettore (26 February 2021). "Opinion | JCE: The axis of evil governing the country by proxy". Sudans Post . I think this is too far into the opinion category for it to be considered a good source. It reads like something my Aunt would post on facebook about Trump. lol I hope your aunt is not into South Sudan politics. Anyway, removed ref and related text. The source is still linked. If you search "axis of evil" you will see where.  Done This is press release not original reporting from the Sudan Tribune. "Following Garang death in 2005, it was reported by Sudan Tribune that Malwal attended Garang's funeral 'to laugh at his dead body'". I think the attribution should be changed from Sudan Tribune to "an official press release from the Chairman of Dinka Caucus of Mainstream Democratic Forum in U.S.A.".  Done
	2c. it contains no original research.
	2d. it contains no copyright violations or plagiarism.	Looks good: https://copyvios.toolforge.org/?lang=en&project=wikipedia&title=Bona+Malwal&oldid=&action=search&use_engine=1&use_links=1&turnitin=0
3. Broad in its coverage:
	3a. it addresses the main aspects of the topic.	"Malwal completed a diploma in journalism from Indiana University in 1963, followed by a bachelor degree in economics and a Master of Arts in journalism and communications both from Columbia University in 1969" Does he have any writing on the impact of his education on his career or outlook? This is very little info for a significant period of his life if I may say, finding these details about a (South) Sudanese early life is really difficult. I scanned Malwal memoir and couple of sources about his early life, and they give far less information 1969-1972 there is a three year gap agree, found/added some trivia but no detailed coverage about this Not a single detail of what he did as minister of culture I cannot even find a document about the government cabinet during that time. Even now, it is difficult to pin point who is the minister, forget what they did No details on what he did in the national assembly from 1974-1976 same but added information for the period between 1974 to 1976 No mention of what he is doing in the 90's expect that he worked at Sudan Democratic Gazette. Are there articles of note in this time period? found/added more information about 1990s, especially interviews No mention of what he did in 2003 and 2004 found/added some trivia about 2003 and 2004
	3b. it stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style).
	4. Neutral: it represents viewpoints fairly and without editorial bias, giving due weight to each.	Is it accurate to say his opposition to authoritarian regimes? It sounds like he was an al-Bashir supporter and al-Bashir was authoritarian?  Donetrue. I amended the sentence to read "Malwal co-founded the Southern Front, served in the national assembly, and held ministerial positions, advocating for cultural, informational policies, and economic development before and during Gaafar Nimeiry's era. However, he also notably resigned in protest against the imposition of Sharia law and Arabic as Sudan's official language after the 1977 National Reconciliation, before later joining the Southern Sudan Autonomous Region's government. In the 1990s, he advocated against human right abuses in Sudan while in self-exile."
	5. Stable: it does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute.
6. Illustrated, if possible, by media such as images, video, or audio:
	6a. media are tagged with their copyright statuses, and valid non-free use rationales are provided for non-free content.	No images. I expect it may be difficult to find appropriate ones but I'd like the editors to indicate that they tried I did look, this is only picture that would have been free under Sundanese law if it were taken in Sudan, but it is not. also this screenshot] from the US seminar which licensed. I did not include other images in the article, as it will be indexed by google as being his image, so unless it is necessary, I comment it out until a proper main image is found (or he dies and then I can use a non-free image)
	6b. media are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions.
	7. Overall assessment.	Nice work from @FuzzyMagma the article has come a long way. I hope this adds to the standard of what makes a GA in the Sudan project

ICC case

@FuzzyMagma here is an update on the ICC case:

https://www.icc-cpi.int/darfur/albashir Czarking0 (talk) 01:48, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

thanks, I will include it and the article initially mentions the first indictment FuzzyMagma (talk) 09:38, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

More Sources

Rice

"Another major development scheme affected by the war is the World Bank-funded rice project in the Malwal Dinka area of Aweil. Located in the transitional grazing areas, the project was initially opposed by the Dinka and only after much demonstration of its utility was it accepted. Rice was used to prepare traditional foods and brew local beer, usually produced from sorgham. Covering an area of one million acres, the project was intended to make the Sudan self-sufficient in rice.45 Although the project is still productive, its capacity has been considerably reduced by the effects of the war. With the frequent interruption of railroad transportation to the North, marketing has also been adversely affected. Nevertheless, the project demonstrated that the Dinka are receptive to development."

I found this and I was wondering if you think it is worth adding anything. Bona Malwal gave this information to reporter Czarking0 (talk) 02:00, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

Thanks. I have Included it this information. I also added more context to why Malwal was moved to this ministry after a dispute with the national government. FuzzyMagma (talk) 10:12, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

I will add the other information and dig deep to include more details. Thanks for the sources and kinda gave me an idea about what level of details you are looking for FuzzyMagma (talk) 10:14, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

Famine

"The southern famine migrants did not become a political scandal in the way that the 1984 drought migrants had been, to the extent that when a train full of starving famine migrants arrived at Khartoum railways station in April 1988, and six children died at the station itself, the only paper to report on the incident was the Sudan Times, edited by the veteran southern politician Bona Malwal."

Song Translation

"But notable in this volume are the original poems and songs, poems by Eva Gillies and Ruth Padel, dedicated to Godfrey, and three Dinka songs translated by Bona Malwal, in his memory. In these songs Godfrey appears as Thienydeng, his Dinka ox-name, meaning shaft of lightning, that is, rain, or the black bull with a white stripe, the symbol of a senior elder. One song praises Thienydeng for having presented Dinka ways of life and beliefs so well to the world."