Talk:Blaže Koneski

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Trivia unclear[edit]

The trivia section gives the name of Blaze Koneski as a publishing house. There is great lack of detail in this entry and this generates confusion as to who is responsible for what and where. Can someone who knows make the entry understandable? Politis 14:46, 10 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Criticism[edit]

Why is there no mention of Blaze's education in Sofia, registered as Blagoy Konev. Not that I like that fact. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.202.248.68 (talk) 18:00, 6 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

There is no criticism of Blaže Koneski. A google search shows no criticism[1]. Alexander the great1 21:28, 5 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The source is great and it even comes from Voden. You'll love it. There are some really letters from Blazhe you might find interesting, too --Laveol T 23:09, 6 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I dont think he understands/wants to understand Bulgarian. Mr. Neutron 23:30, 6 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Actually he does - see Kroum Pindoff and the talk page - he understands it more than well. --Laveol T 04:02, 7 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Criticism[edit]

The 'Criticism' section is misleading and (almost) completely WP:OR. Misleading because Kostov (2010, p. 88) says that Venko Markovski opposed "Koneski's ideas on the Serbianization of the Macedonian language", and Tchavdar (2013, p. 462) claims that some Bulgarian linguists accused Koneski of plagiarism, not of "manipulating historical facts for political goals" as the article states. The section is OR because the critics themselves (Dragnev and Cărnušanov) are being cited. --124.169.245.119 (talk) 02:59, 29 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Kronsteiner is also an unreliable source. Tchavdar (2010, p. 475) says, "At the same time, Sofia’s academic community sought out foreign linguists who could advocate the Bulgarian doctrine. Since 1977 a Summer Seminar in Bulgarian Language, held in Veliko Tărnovo, was intended to counter the influence over international Slavic studies of the already existing Seminar on Macedonian Language in Ohrid. The outreach to cultivate supporters of the Bulgarian linguistic cause nevertheless had only limited success. By the end of the communist era, only Otto Kronsteiner, a Slavist from Salzburg, Austria, fully embraced the Bulgarian polemicists’ point of view, labeling Macedonian a “Bulgarian language written on a Serbian typewriter” [...] Kronsteiner’s open adoption of the Bulgarian nationalist cause only compromised him in the eyes of his Austrian and Western European colleagues". --203.59.113.91 (talk) 03:46, 31 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The criticism section should be exclusively about criticisms leveled at Koneski and his works, not the language. --203.59.113.91 (talk) 03:52, 31 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Some of the cited sources are not actual criticisms of Koneski or his work. Hupchick—a past-president of the Bulgarian Studies Association and Fulbright Scholar to Bulgaria in 1989 (surprise, surprise)—claims that the Macedonian language is artificial. Somehow only the standardized variety of Macedonian is artificial yet normative varieties of others language are not. Citing his views as a criticism of Koneski would imply that there's something wrong with artificiality (though I'm certainly not suggesting that it is). Here are a few quotes from this "scholar":

  • Led by the Skopje socialist linguist Blaže Koneski, and given international recognition in 1952 by Yale-produced Harvard Slavic professor Horace Lunt, the artificially created and structured Macedonian literary language ultimately provided the socialist-mandated ethnic validity for an independent Macedonian nationality (Hupchick, 1995, p. 144).
  • Its official language was the artificially constructed Macedonian of Koneski and Lunt (Hupchick, 1995, p. 154).

Another interesting recent addition to the article:

  • because of the adoptaion of the Serbian alphabet in the Republic of Macedonia, under Koneski's leadership

The Serbian alphabet wasn't adopted. There was no Republic of Macedonia in the 1940s, and Koneski was never the "leader" of the country.

Jingiby, why would you put "[he] considered Serbian to be his native language" under 'Criticism'? I hope that was simply an error you made in haste. --203.59.113.91 (talk) 09:48, 31 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Stojan Kiselinovski is real casus. Do not delete it, please. Jingiby (talk) 18:30, 31 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Dubious[edit]

Kostov (2010) doesn't source his claim. It's obviously dubious (as are most of his claims) given Koneski's implicit claim to be an expert on the Macedonian language, and his role in its standardization. If he had publicly considered Serbo-Croatian to be his native language, he would lose all credibility and only give credence to the claims of Serbianization made by Bulgarian nationalists. In fact, Koneski himself, in his memoir, states that Macedonian is his native language. He recounts how the publication of Macedonian-language poetry by Kočo Racin motivated him to "[m]ove to writing poetry and literature in my native language". Kostov's (2010) claim that Serbo-Croatian was his [Koneski's] native language likely comes from the statement (in the same memoir), "Serbo-Croatian [...] was our written language". --124.169.245.119 (talk) 03:41, 29 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Marinov (2013, p. 481) also speaks of Koneski's "acculturation" before WWII. Not only is Kostov's (2010) claim dubious, it is also at odds with the other sources. And Cărnušanov is unreliable; Marinov (2013, p. 433) refers to him as a "professional polemicist" and details his career with Radio Sofia "done purely for propaganda purposes" (p. 479). Jingiby, this is precisely why you should read (at least) the entire chapter of the works you cite; they invariably oppose your own POV. --124.169.245.119 (talk) 05:15, 29 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Graduation[edit]

What's his education? When creating the Macedonian alphabet he is still 22 year old... Moreover two years later he becomes faculty member of University of Skopje! Did he actually graduated from any universities and if yes when? Tonimicho (talk) 20:32, 10 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

External links modified[edit]

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to one external link on Blaže Koneski. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add {{cbignore}} after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{nobots|deny=InternetArchiveBot}} to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{Sourcecheck}}).

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 18 January 2022).

  • If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
  • If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—cyberbot IITalk to my owner:Online 21:01, 29 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

External links modified[edit]

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 3 external links on Blaže Koneski. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{Sourcecheck}}).

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 18 January 2022).

  • If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
  • If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 03:23, 4 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

External links modified[edit]

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on Blaže Koneski. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 18 January 2022).

  • If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
  • If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 20:14, 21 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Accusation of Serbianization of Macedonian language by Koneski[edit]

Such accusations are espoused not only by some scholars but by a lot of researchers as historians, linguists, politicians etc. Please do not put this info to the bottom, but discuss the issue here. Thanks. Jingiby (talk) 12:48, 16 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, please provide me a quote from the two you cite in the lead which states that Koneski was accused of serbianizing the Macedonian language, thanks. --Local hero talk 20:51, 15 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Hello. There is some misunderstanding on your part that one sentence can express an entire article with the ideas and context it reflects. Often this is impossible without reading the entire article. Also according to the rules here in the introduction it is not necessary to cite sources. In the main text, enough are given here about Serbization and Koneski's role. However, for your convenience, I am providing here a link to Professor Kronsteiner's article translated into Bulgarian, because you understand it. Read the text and you will understand that the author's idea is the undoubted Serbization in the codification of the Macedonian language. In this context, Koneski's decisive role in this process is indicated. Greetings. Jingiby (talk) 04:47, 16 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
What I am trying to clarify is how we are attributing the "serbianization of Macedonian" to Koneski. If we are making a claim in the very lead of this article that Koneski serbianized the Macedonian language, we should have a source that directly backs up this claim, not sources about how his own speech may have been serbianized. I cannot find anywhere in the source you've just linked where it claims Koneski serbianized the Macedonian language. --Local hero talk 18:24, 16 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I don't see how the text you just added addresses my concerns. If this is true and we're presenting it in the lead, it should be very easy for you to find an explicit assertion that "Konest serbianized the Macedonian language" or was accused of doing so. --Local hero talk 14:17, 17 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The text in the article claims there are accusation that Koneski do that. Unfortunately, the attacks of the neo-nationalist, anti-Yugoslav Macedonians on Koneski did not begin in the early 21st century (p. 9). Rather, they began in the late 1980s and early 1990s, while Koneski was still alive. Risteski (1988) was an indirect attack on Koneski, but by the early 1990s, the right-wing press was full of direct attacks accusing Koneski of “Serbianizing” Macedonian. The chief focus of these attacks was the exclusion of ъ from Macedonian Cyrillic. Language Issues in former Yugoslav Space: A Commentary Victor A. Friedman doi: 10.12681/awpel.22594. Jingiby (talk) 16:57, 17 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Blaže_Koneski&oldid=1205528535"