Talk:Beji Caid Essebsi/Archive 1

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Archive 1

Requested move

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: consensus to move the page, per the discussion below. Dekimasuよ! 22:07, 20 November 2014 (UTC)

Beji Caid el Sebsi → Béji Caïd Essebsi – While especially in the English language sphere, there is a number of valid transcriptions around ("Essebsi", "Sebsi", "El-Sebsi", "el Sebsi", "al Sebsi"), the spelling "Essebsi" has become by far the most widespread, both in media (Google News: Béji Caïd Sebsi) and scholarly publications (Google Scholar: Béji Caïd Sebsi). (Note that I'm purposely using a searchterm here that catches all different kinds of spelling.)
— Secondly, regarding the diacritics, while you will find them being predominant in the French-language sphere, note that also more authoritative English-language sources such as the LCCN/VIAF or his biography at the World Economic Forum do use diacritics, while the CIA World Factbook 2014 doesn't. Some relevant 2014 English-language books ([1] and [2]) do use the diacritics. While there are arguments for either side and WP:DIACRITICS doesn't give a clear direction, I'm tending to the use of the diacritics here, especially as they're not disruptive.
In any case the spelling "Essebsi" is confirmed by all of these sources, supporting this to be the more dominant, possibly even authoritative variant in English language, while in French language publications, it is anyway firmly established. --PanchoS (talk) 01:27, 13 November 2014 (UTC) PanchoS (talk) 01:27, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

  • Leaning to support judging this by the normal diacritics test, that diacritics-enabled sources use it of not, it seems a French-influenced romanization is preferred, not too surprising in Tunisia. In ictu oculi (talk) 04:49, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
  • Mildy support surname, not diacritics. It's so hard to say. The New York Times, The Washington Post, and The Guardian all use Essebsi. Conversely, The Economist omits the article altogether, calling him Beji Caid Sebsi. This isn't without precedent either: the man I think most people called Anwar Sadat was, more formally, Anwar El-Sadat— yet I never saw it written Anwar Essadat or Assadat. I'm inclined to have it be consistent with Ennahda (not el-Nahda). As for the diacritics, no, because I haven't seen them used in any English news source. —Largo Plazo (talk) 15:30, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
  • Tentative support, including diacritics (per nom and In ictu oculi). After about a zillion RMs like we have established very clearly that WP does not omit diacritics where they are reliably documented, even if many English-language sources ignore them. There are exceptions under uncommon, particular criteria, but they are not applicable here (e.g. known preference of the subject to drop them, as is common for many Hollywood actors, etc.). My support for the diacritics is firm. My support the "el Sebsi" to "Essebsi" change per WP:COMMONNAME is tentative, and open to someone challenging the sourcing. I have actually encountered "Anwar el Sadat", as well as "Muammar al-Qaddafi" (under various spellings); more of our sources use some form of compound patronymic for this subject than for Sadat or Qaddafi/Gaddafi, and more do it for this subject than do not, or so it seems so far. I'm not 100% convinced this "el/al to e-" contraction process is as prevalent as this RM suggests, however. The sources cited so far seem to support it in this case, however.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  22:53, 18 November 2014 (UTC)
  • Support. As a primary source, the presidential ballot uses the spelling "Beji Caid Essebsi". As for the diacritics, perhaps we could build a consensus for the romanization of Tunisian names? We could go either way as long as it remains consistent. Abjiklɐm (tɐlk) 02:02, 19 November 2014 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

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