Talk:Basmala/Archive 1

Bismillah vs. Basmala

The actual word is Bismillah, and basmala is a mispronunciation. If the word بسم is read without the vowel sounds, it can be misread as basm, bism, or even busm. This is because vowels in Arabic are represented with dots, dashes, and cursive figures over or under the consonents. They appear as decorations, not within the word itself. The familiar reader would know the word, but an unfamiliar reader could mispronounce and thus create a meaningless word. (I will supply more info when I have it; looking for linguistic sources. Help here!) بسم, read from right to left, breaks down into three letters from right to left: ب س م These are consonant sounds, which are accompanied by decorative vowels, much like the nekudim of Hebrew. Without the vowels, a completely different word or a meaningless sound will be produced. The English equivalents, from right to left, would be the letters b, s, and m. Put together, "bsm" makes little aesthetic sense without vowels. Another example is B,N. Put together as bn with the vowel sound missing, the word can be read as ban, ben, bin, bun, or even bon - the last being only a meaningless term in English. (It is, however, the proper name of a peninsula.) بسم الله breaks down as, "b' ism Illah" - i.e., In the name of Allah (I begin)... Unsigned remarks by User:TheProphetess

Basmala is NOT a so-called "mispronunciation"[sic!!!]. It's an abstract noun which refers to the whole phrase. Most of the people who have worked on the article before you probably know more Arabic than you do, so your condescending attempt to explain the most simple basics of Arabic orthography really does very little to advance the discussion. AnonMoos 15:52, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

What's condescending about explaining vowels sounds in Arabic? It explaining something is condescending, the whole WP would be a condescending attempt. . TheProphetess 16:49, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

Because the fact that short vowels are largely written only by means of diacritics in Arabic has extremely little bearing on the Bismillah vs. Basmalah question. Bismillah and Basmalah in fact vary in their basic non-diacritic orthographies: بسم الله vs. بسملة . See the difference? AnonMoos 17:58, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

I understand that many people worked on the article before I, but the stub with very skewed knowledge didn't give me this impression. As for the question of basmala vs. Bismillah, I will consult with an Arab native speaker and a scholar first before concluding. Perhaps I saw this article in a presupposing state of mind - 1/ I was amazed that most editors here have cornered Muslim editors into apologetic stances. I am sure there are a gazillion other issues and what-nots, but I am not accounting for the entire WP here, just my area of concern. 2/ Many on the controversial articles on Islam (sigh. which isn't) are skewed on the name of NPOV. Which I'd rather discuss off WP because I don't wish to pose an opinion unless I learn the ways of WP.

At any rate, Bismillah is a much popular and more accurate version of the ayah, simply because, as in the article, the phrase is pronounced Bismillah. I promise to look deeper into the basmala affair. It's just that, in all my life, I neither heard nor read this word. During a recent tour to Saudi Arabia where I offered at least 20 prayers in Ka'aba, I *never* heard bismillah pronounced this way, nor did I see bismillah named as "basmala" in any Arabic literature. As for any doubt abt my intentions, if I were a non-Muslim with a mission to mess up, this won't be worth my time. If I am a Muslim, my concern is genuine, and extends beyond editing an article anyone can change. TheProphetess 19:53, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

Basmalah is NOT NOT a "version of the ayah" or "pronunciation of bismillah" -- it's an abstract noun which refers to the WHOLE PHRASE bismillaah ir-raHman ir-raHiim collectively. What part of "abstract noun" don't you understand? I'm sure that you're a very pious and dutiful Muslim (I'm not a Muslim at all, as would be very obvious if you look at my User page), but this doesn't necessarily give you the qualifications to authoritatively discuss matters of technical Arabic-language terminology. AnonMoos 01:18, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

I have studied Arabic grammar, but in Urdu. In other words, what you call "diacritics," we call "aaraab"

The word is i`raab الإعراب , but this mainly refers to inflectional endings. AnonMoos 18:58, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

- which does not mean I do not know what I am speaking of. I also have great respect for the "quadriliteral consonantal root b-s-m-l (ب س م ل)" but the ayat بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم breaks down in four word: بسم (bism - in the name of) الله (Allah - Allah) الرحمن (ir-Rehman - the Merciful) and الرحيم (ir-Raheem - the Beneficient). The consonantal root ل is after the letter ا, to which a vowel sound must be ascribed. Is it A, or it I? Answer: A when the word is standalone ALlah, and I in composition.

Besides, the diactric below the letter ب is "zayr."

I have no idea where this comes from -- in actual Arabic Arabic, the diacritic consisting of a short straight line under a letter, writing an /i/ vowel, is generally called kasra كسرة AnonMoos 18:58, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

(Also in the image chosen by Hajor, and acknowledged by you.) This would lend the letter ب the sound "bi," not "ba." At any rate, Bismillah is the very popular version as well as the correct pronunciation of the ayat as the article itself says. I am surprised by the insistence on basmala. Besides I am hard-pressed to find the superiority of the "slightly-unusually derived" basmala over Bismillah.

That's nice -- however Basmala is not an "alternative pronunciation" of Bismillah, nor was it ever intended as such. Repeat this mantra until you start to understand: BASMALA IS THE NAME OF THE WHOLE PHRASE WHOSE FIRST WORD IS "BISMILLAH..." AnonMoos 18:58, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

Basmala even omits the H sound at the end!

That's because there's no such thing as a "Quinqueliteral" in Arabic grammar! 19:24, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

Finally, the purpose of this encyclopedia is to make reference easy for people who are looking things up. Therefore I insist that the page be titled Bismillah, with a possible re-direct from basmala. I wonder what scholarly practice would suggest a preference of the "slightly-unusually derived" basmala over Bismillah. TheProphetess 12:52, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

Actually, cross-references are cheap and easy -- anybody looking for Bismillah will be automatically redirected to this article. In any case, BASMALA IS THE NAME OF THE WHOLE PHRASE WHOSE FIRST WORD IS "BISMILLAH..." -- please repeat that mantra until you begin to grasp the point.... AnonMoos 18:58, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

If I call "kasra," "zayr" - does that make me ignorant? What you call a textbook "kasra," I call a "zayr." Each are right! And in the first place, if you did find a fault with my understanding, I am amazed why you took this unproportioanl amount of offence and got personal? Just correct it, and I'll know. Now do I have to send you a note of apology for moving an article? Can I expect the slightest amount of grace or are you the licensing authority here?

Supposedly you are the linguist here, but it is I who noticed that our conflict is due to our different linguistic background. And for this I have given you polite explanations but for your constant harassment and un-called for anger. Did I re-touch what you wrote again? Did I vandalise the page? Did you not notice that I promised to refer to scholars? What is this campaign about then?? What do you want from me, really? To contribute to create an accurate article, or whipping myself to finally get your forgiveness? And forgiveness for what, Mr. Editor??? This is wiki. If you are flared up over one word, "mispronunciation," go ahead change it. Be bold. I thought it was wrong. I changed it, and left here what I thought was a decent explanation without attacking anyone. I did it without insulting anyone and leaving alone even the rather irrelevant information about Bohemian Rhapsody on the page. Because even the cursory tour of any Islamic page clearly reveals the politics I wouldn't want to associate with. Enough said.

When I saw this article, it was (and is) a stub with little helpful info. The info was scant. It was very clear that Bismillah's page didn't reflect its significance for Muslims, who, whether your majesty chooses to agree or not, may be the primary users of this page. And on this very important ayat, 1/4th the information was about a song! But I thought, no problem, let me correct where I can because some good soul has at least put whatever info here that they could. According to the information I have, and you have no divine right to deprecate me, I corrected the page. You think it's wrong? Guess what? You can edit! And leave an explanation on this page. Now I have had enough of this disdain. Let's get back to working on the article. TheProphetess 20:06, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

Please hold the personal attacks until I undertake the promised research. If you lower the volume and insult, I may indeed listen. If indeed basmala is the name of Bismillah, and it is a preferrable over Bismillah as the name of the ayat, I will, in my right mind, only vote for it. TheProphetess 13:13, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

I have been familiar with Arabic for the past 26 years, and this is the first time I have seen basmala referring to Bismillah, which at any day is the standard pronunciation of the phrase in question. Also, I can pay attention with you going up in flares. TheProphetess 16:49, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

Sorry if I was excessively annoyed, but it wasn't very edifying to see you asserting as "facts" things which are in fact not facts -- as well as implicitly deprecating the efforts of everybody who worked on the article before you. Can you use an Arabic dictionary in which words are listed by abstract consonantal roots? If so, please look up quadriliteral root ba-sin-mim-lam. If you can't do this task, then it might be best for you to refrain from getting involved in this area at this time. AnonMoos 17:58, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

Perhaps it's because we read Arabic with a slight Urdu flavor. I once was baffled when a neo-Muslim scolded me for not undertanding what "bid'ah" is - until I realized he was referring to what we read in Urdu and Arabic as "bid'at." For any reader from my perspective - and I Alhamdolillah have years of Quranic/Islamic education behind me - basmala sounds scandalously wrong, even rarer than bid'at is a pronun of bid'ah. Ah, the wonders of WP - and the clash of diversity! :) I feel I am beginning to see... TheProphetess 19:53, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

That's nice -- did you look up the abstract quadriliteral consonantal root ba-sin-mim-lam in an Arabic dictionary? If you did, then please tell us what you found there. If you can't look it up there, then that also tells us something.

In actual Arabic (as opposed to Arabic words borrowed into south Asian languages), ta marbuta is generally transcribed as a pronounced "t" only in the iDafa / construct / genitive / noun-compound construction... AnonMoos 01:18, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

I remember first looking up quadriliteral consonants of Arabic at the age of four.

Then you certainly are misremembering, since there are no such things as "quadriliteral consonants" -- only quadriliteral roots. I've just now writen from scratch a whole brief (but moderately adequate) scholarly article on Quadriliteral -- AnonMoos 18:58, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

You indeed are knowledgeable and I feel the real issue is that you felt I was challenging your authority or knowledge when I first changed the article. Which explains the baffling offence you took. No, I didn't know you. Now what can I do to calm you down (except for the very dictatorial assertion that I must repeat a mantra. Oh, be graceful!) I respect you as a person and NPOV and bias theories aside, I understand we all have POVs and states of mind while we are here. Well, it's the beauty of this place to me. When I first saw this article, my feeling was of respect for the people who worked on it, even though it had - even if we see from a Martian's perspective - little useful info. It was obvious that it was written by non-Muslims who couldn't provide the info I'd look for as a Muslim, among users of other backgrounds. I never heard basmala before, neither in Saudi nor in Pakistan. I thought the article was written by someone with very little info on Bismillah, and I changed it. But for respect for those who edited before, I didn't take out the info without consultation. I didn't disgrace anyone, I didn't insult anyone. I changed something which from my linguistic background was unheard of - and this is my prerogative. And I explained that politely. All you had to do was to change it back, and politely inform me where I was wrong. Hajer corrected me gently on the bad "move," and I listened like a decent human being. I am givig tall explanations because of the newbie syndrome. Well, ENOUGH! TheProphetess 20:06, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

Which, of course, isn't a scholarly reference, but a response to your personal remarks. And... I will refrain in respect of the Wiki guidelines. TheProphetess 12:31, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

P.S. Did you bother to notice the links to de:Basmala and it:Basmala and wonder why they were there?

P.S. I didn't attack the de: and it: sections because I am not an omnipotent Wikipedian - and contrary to your harsh allegation, I do keep myself away from languages I have no knowledge of. TheProphetess 17:09, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

What I meant was, it might have occurred to you to wonder why this supposed alleged "Mispronunciation" was so internationally global in scope! AnonMoos 17:58, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

I also noted that except for the WP world, Bismillah is not only the standard pronunciation, it is also much more "internationally global in scope." Honestly, this is less about basmala or Bismillah - it's more about you and I now. So for the benefit of this article and community, I will just focus elsehwhere in the article. Peace. TheProphetess 12:31, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

Did you know that بسملة turns up an additional 10,700 hits in Google? [1] AnonMoos 19:06, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

Why sic!!! a wrong spelling? Be a real editor. Correct it. TheProphetess 17:22, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

It ain't a wrong spelling, it's a wrong concept... AnonMoos 17:58, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

Just as a note sic is Latin, meaning "so" or "thus." In writing it is usually placed in a sentence to show that something that may be considered wrong was intentional.Wynler 19:20, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

Thanks Wynler. I thought I was invited to re-write "mispronunciation" as the fussier "mis-pronunciation." TheProphetess 19:53, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

In something that you yourself have written, "sic" means "this is how I've intentionally written it -- please don't try to gratuitously 'correct' it". When you're quoting from somebody else, then "sic" means "this is how I found it in my original source -- I'm conspicuously refusing to take any responsibility for its correctness or validity". AnonMoos 01:18, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

Sigh. Talk for the sake of talk, eh? TheProphetess 12:31, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

Delete the above or move it to archive?

The discussion above seems to have run its course, and served whatever purpose it was capable of. What I have said basically boils down to the single sentence "Basmala is not an 'alternative pronunciation' of Bismillah, nor was it ever intended as such, but is rather the NAME of the WHOLE PHRASE whose first word is Bismillah". Delete the above or move it to talk archive page? AnonMoos 02:19, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines suggests either archiving or refactoring, not deleting. Something for the principals in the discussion to decide among themselves? –Hajor 02:56, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

Archive, please. Thanks. TheProphetess 19:06, 24 September 2005 (UTC)