Talk:Bart Simpson/Archive 1

Archive 1

Initial message

Do all those wiki-links really belong in the list of chalkboard messages? They seem both arbitrary and unhelpful to me.

- furrykef

Jo-Jo?

source?

See the alt.tv.simpsons FAQ, which explains that Nancy Cartwright, who (as you know) does Bart's voice-over, gave him the middle name JoJo. — 205.238.129.180 18:58, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)

• Homer didn't know his middle initial J. stood for Jay until one episode, long after Bart was born. Yet presumably the J. in Bartholemew J. Simpson stands for the same as the J. in Homer J. Simpson. Yet how could Homer give his son his middle name if he didn't know it himself (The answer, of course, is that it's just a cartoon!)

• • I removed the reference to Jo-Jo being his middle name. It has never been mentioned in any episode, and The Simpsons doesn't exactly have an expanded universe - and if it did, it should be noted somewhere in the article that this is where the name come form. I also removed the redundant "Bart" from Bartholemew J. "Bart" Simpson - the page is after all called Bart Simpson, and throughout the article he is refered to as Bart; no one should be confused. - Matthew238 01:38, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

• • • Matt Groening said in "Simpsons Comics Royale" that Nancy Cartwright had a line which went "Or my name isn't Bartholomew J. Simpson!" Groening then went on to ask what the "J" stood for, and she said, Jo-Jo. APclark 19:58, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure the name Jo-Jo also appears in something like the "Rainy Day Fun Book" or some other non-canon publication from the early days. I remember seeing it. TheHYPO 05:52, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

• • • • Maybe we can have a section dealing with Bart's name; we can add that in if anyone is sure of where it comes from and can provide references. - Matthew238 05:40, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

disinterested teachers?

I'm a little unclear on this one. "Disinterested" actually means impartial (ie: has no special interest, unbiased). In flashback episodes, Bart is shown being discouraged by his kindergarten teacher ("Extra clap in BINGO, not college material"), but I'd hardly refer to this as "disinterested" in the strictest sense of the word. Is the word the writer looking for "uninterested"? --Toquinha 1 July 2005 16:19 (UTC)

Aye Carumba!

Originally, this is a mexican expression written "¡Ay Caramba!", meaning "oh, god!" or "Wow!" or whatever expression of surprise there is in english (exactly as Bart uses it in the show) and it is pronouncied as written in the article. Still, I wonder if it is alright to leave it or if it should be corrected to its original spanish spelling in the Article.

Three words: Respect other languages...

---

I doubt the mexican origin, as the word "Caramba" has a very old and common use in Portugal and Spain, and the origin could be a Portuguese/Spanish one. As for the definition you're completly correct. It's a slang word (though not swearing) to express great surprise or astonishment about something, very common in informal spoken Portuguese. Ai or ay is another Portuguese(ai)/Spanish(ay) interjection that normally is used with someone experiencing sudden physical pain (a smack in the head, a bump on something, etc...). It's also very used to start an informal spoken sentence, like the "¡Ay Caramba!".

Correct pronunciation is "ahee".

"Carumba" or the even worst "karumba" are english misspelled adaptations of the word. FYI, traditional alphabeths of the latin languages family, which Portuguese and Spanish belong, *never* had the "K" letter in it, so "karumba" are two mistakes in a single word. --Netshark 09:14, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

11?

Since when is Bart 11? I've never heard any source for this. Source? APclark 18:20, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

In the first paragraph "He is the 11-year-old son" while in the second paragraph "Bart is always described as being 10 years old." This needs to be fixed, but I don't know the answer... -SCEhardT 03:32, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

Bart is 10 years old it says so in various simpson shows.

Circumcised?

"He was also circumcised as shown in the episode where he and Lisa reconcile Krusty to his father."

I don't remember them ever mentioning that in that episode. I know in "Dont fear the roofer", Marge takes Bart to be circumcised (whether it actually occurs are not is never revealed). That either needs to be referenced or edited.

• I checked the referenced episode, and no such thing happens. Besides, in the indicated episode, they get detoured and Bart never ends up at the doctor's office - he is shown as up and about when they get home, so it's unlikely he underwent surgery. I've removed the reference. There, that's my strange nitpick for the day. --Trafton 03:29, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Yes actually he was, though it never shows wether or not he underwent it, he was on a table with his pants off while rabbi was holding the knife, while bart was trying to convince him to reunite with his son, and Rabbi counters his argument and says "besides, this is neither the time nor the place", I'm sure you'll see it if you look at the episode again.

• In that episode Bart isn't the one being circumcised. He's merely talking with the rabbi at a bris being performed on an infant. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.215.222.65 (talk) 21:59, August 20, 2007 (UTC)

Simpson is a name of Scottish background, there was an episode where it was shown that the name was won by a gamble by one of Abe's ancestor's. Besides...since the subject of the Simpson ancestry cover's the whole family it should probably be stated in the page for the entire family.

In the episode the color yellow it is revealed the Simpson's are 1/16 black. As Homer is a direct descendant of Virgil Simpson, former slave http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simpson_family

--Kiyosuki 06:07, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

The Prank Phone Call List

The prank phone call name list contains names Bart never used on the show. Where do they come from? Could we edit the list so it only has the ones actually used on the show? --WillMak050389 15:43, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

• Are the others from Simpsons Comics? Digifiend 11:14, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Some are from the video games and the comics, I am not sure of them all myself, that's why I added the references tag to that section, we need an episode cite (or video game or comic) for each one... - Adolphus79 11:51, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

A discussion on the Talk page for mondegreen raises the issue of the prank-call names, and whether there's a term for what he's doing with the names. A mondegreen is a mishearing, usually accidental, that produces a different meaning. What Bart's doing in some (not all) of the calls is almost a reverse mondegreen, where he is creating the mishearing by saying something apparently innocent, but which will take on a double-meaning once it's repeated by his dupe. Anyone know if this phenomenon has its own name? You are welcome to copy any replies to my Talk page, if you wish; I'm "watching" some 200 pages and might not see it here for a while. Lawikitejana 17:26, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

Bart's South Park appearance

This reference keeps getting taken on and off, on and off. Enough already! I've shortened it considerably to the bare bones facts, as it was a bit wordy. But in the end this is a valid piece of trivia about the character. Anyone who can't see that this character in South Park wasn't a reference to, or maybe even supposed to be Bart himself is delusional.

Please leave it on, the only reason this bit of info keeps getting taken off that I can see is personal bias of some sort. It breaks no wikipedia rule whatsoever and now that I've shortened it to a foot note, it has no business being taken off.--Kiyosuki 00:37, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Eat My Shorts

Since Eat My Shorts is indeed not invented by the Simpsons, but predates the show, I've had to delete it from the neologisms list article. I thought the research of the entry might be of some use though to this article at some point, so here's the content that was there: TheHYPO 05:53, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

---

An exclamation and catchphrase of Bart that doesn't specifically have literal meaning, though as a joke, it is sometimes interpreted literally by another character. The phrase is basically used as a tell-off, like "screw you", which also ignores the literal meaning of the phrase. It was brought into pop culture mainly by merchandise, as is evidenced by the fact that it only uttered by Bart on the show a handful of times before becoming used mainly as self-parody, and only once in the first season ("Bart the Genius").

In the third season's "Bart the Murderer", "Eat My Shorts" and "Don't Have a Cow" are horses in a race. In the sixth season's Lemon of Troy, Homer and Bart shout it as they flee Shelbyville. Flanders adds in, "yes, eat all of our shirts." By the eighth season it had become a definite in-joke. In "Simpsoncalifragilisticexpiala(Annoyed Grunt)cious", Bart adds it to a song for no particular reason, and in "The Simpsons Spin-Off Showcase", Bart sings it along with "don't have a cow!" as part of his musical introduction in the variety show spin-off. In the ninth season's "Lisa's Sax", flashbacks show Bart's first days of school, and what is implied to be his first rebellious act, saying "eat my shorts!" to principal Skinner.

Other characters occasionally use the line as well. In a halloween episode in which the school staff is eating students, principal Skinner considers that he might start by eating Bart's shorts as Bart has often suggested.

"Eat my Shorts" predates The Simpsons; DJ Rick Dees had a 1984 song with the same title. ("Eat my shorts; choke on poly-cotton. Eat my shorts; everything we had was rotten. So long, baby, I'll see you in court...eat my shorts.") The phrase was also famously used by Judd Nelson's character in the 1985 film The Breakfast Club.

I've removed the following from the article:

Bart is also the creator of some famous catch phrases, such as "Don't have a cow" and "Eat my shorts."

and:

Bart's trademark "Eat My Shorts" catchphrase may be a reference to the film "The Breakfast Club," as John Bender tells Mr. Vernon to do the same. (Actually based on a Nancy Cartwright experience in school)

I think Groening stated somewhere that he took it from the breakfast club, but I'm not sure. In any case, this should written clearly and properly referenced before it goes back into the article.risk 02:56, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

---

Christianity to Catholicism

"However, in recent episodes, he started to become much more religious, seeming to change faiths on a by-episode basis, from Christianity to Catholicism, to a very brief stint in interest in Judaism."

First, how do you convert from Christianity to Catholicism? Second, we need episode references for these statements. The whole surrounding paragraph about religion should be reworked. See also Talk:The Simpsons#Bart Simpson the Religious Fundamentalist. --Liberlogos 01:29, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

I've changed the inaccurate "From Christianity to Catholicism" to "from various Protestant faiths to Catholicism" because Catholicism _is_ a Christian faith. In fact, it is one of the earliest- if not the earliest Christian sect, given that St. Peter was the first pope.Enki Nabu 04:33, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Presumably the earliest Christian sect was whatever-Jesus-and-his-homies practiced, which most definitely bears no resemblance to any modern religion that has a name least of all Catholicism. Catholics consider Peter the first pope, but he was undeniably Jewish. In America at least, -many- people who consider themselves 'christian' say so in deliberate opposition to catholicism. It's kind of like the China vs Taiwan thing.

I'm in the deep south, (lots of protestant faiths) and if you ask around catholisism is generally considered a christian faith in the fact that it beilieves jesus christ was the son of god and that he rose after death. Therefore cathlic=christian, christian=cathlic. === Fictional Catholics category ===

I'm removing the Category:Fictional Catholics because I believe as a one-episode situation it doesn't really count for this purpose. In the 19-year history of the series, Bart is pretty consistently a member of a Protestant church. If Bart has quietly retained his Catholism without my noticing, it would be helpful (for me at least) to explain here before restoring Fiction Catholics category. — edgarde 13:17, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

A discussion whether Catholicism is Christian is the most ridiculous discussion ever. The Catholic Church predates the Protestant Church and its variations by 1400 years and the Protestant Church of course has its very origins inside the catholic church. What do people in America learn about their very own religion? And before you bring anti-Catholic remarks about me: I am a protestant. --217.162.94.103 00:29, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

I've re-removed the Fictional Catholics tag. Since most situations on the show (with some exceptions) revert back to normal by the next episode, I don't think we can put Bart or Homer in this category. --Wgbc2032 23:59, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

NPOV?

I think this statement is biased "In short, Bart is a selfish, heart-breaking (Bart the Lover), bullying (he has bullied Lisa numerous times), evil boy."

Fictional Anarchist?

What is the source that verifies that he should be placed in the Category:Fictional anarchists? Thanks, -Cacuija (my talk) 05:33, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

If there is no source that verifies this, i will be removing it from that category in a week or so. thanks, --Cacuija (my talk) 01:59, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

The article has been removed from Simpson, Bart due to lack of sources. --Cacuija (my talk) 16:03, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

katakana?

what's with the japanese? why translating bart's name to japanese? it's not an anime.

Gay episode

Which episode is where Homer thinks Bart is gay? -71.224.24.99 19:14, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Homer's Phobia Walters1 23:13, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

getting Good Article status

Over at the Simpsons WikiProject, this article is most likely next on the Featured Article drive. If you have suggestions or would like to help, those would be good places to start. Natalie 20:43, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

I did some wide clearing of sections. But left some. I didn't touch any of the articles content. Age should be merged into Biography, Bartman should be merged into Personality. I don't know if the future deserves any mention, thoughts? This article is pretty rough and it needs some sources. The Biography needs to be cleaned up a LOT. Basically just a wide overview with few episodes specifics (like Homer), and Personality, influences and origins all need clean up. -- Scorpion 20:51, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

You just did exactly what I was going to do! I hit edit, and suddenly character origins was the first section. I agree we should model this after Homer, which means taking out all the future, all the episode-specific information, unless it provides a major change or explanation, and possible just get rid of Bartman. It seems to be a gag that they used occasionally at one point, but have drifted away from (I can't think of any mentions past season 5).

I agree with getting rid of bartman, but it should be mentioned in the personality section, I didn't delete it because this way, people have somethinbg to work off of. -- Scorpion 20:56, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Good call. Every section of this is a serious mess, not just biography. I may be able to work on it much later tonight, but by then you may have made all the changes I would have. I'll see what sources I can find on SNPP, at least. Natalie 21:01, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Another note, the appearances in other shows section should go too, but I left because some points (especially the South Park one) could be integrated into the influences section. I've been looking through some FA movie articles, and none of them have appearances sections. -- Scorpion 21:03, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Appearances on other shows are sort of a toss-up for me. Maybe we could mention it (one sentence) in the "impact on pop culture" section. I think we should get rid of the Bart-centric episodes list (if you haven't already), since that's half the damn episodes of the show. Natalie 00:20, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

I have completely removed the biography info - since Bart is a child, there isn't much of a biography for him that happens before the run of the show (i.e. birth to age 9). I also trimmed repetetive info from the personality section. Someone else will have to do the rewrite - writing about fiction is not one of my strengths. Natalie 00:55, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

physical characteristics

I have removed this section again. Most of this is trivial information that will not help the article get to GA. Natalie 02:22, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

WTH. The Ralph Wiggum article is longer than the Bart Simpson Article! Someone add something please! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.60.240.214 (talk) 11:25, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Or clean up the Ralph Wiggum article which, while nicely-written, includes a lot of original research. Longer isn't necessarily better. / edg ☺ ★ 11:37, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Trivia section

Do we really need this? Any trivia that is present through multiple episodes can be worked into the main article, and anything else (information that only shows up in one episode) is getting a little more detailed than is probably appropriate to this artcile. Natalie 13:33, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

My Response

I disagree and have readded the section. If you look at the pages of the Simpsons characters, there are many with 'Trivia' or 'Miscellaneous' sections. Among the five Simpsons who live at Evergreen Terrace, both Marge and Lisa have "interesting facts" sections. More minor characters have sections like this, too. Barney, Mr Smithers, Santa's Little Helper, Krusty the Clown, and the one-episode Frank Grimes all have a miscellanea section. Surely if Trivia sections stand for these characters, Bart, who is one of the show's two main character deserves a section like this, too. It's only fair to apply the same standard to each character. (And this says nothing of the Trivia sections for all kinds of famous people - from Jefferson Davis to Ulysses S. Grant.) takethemud 16:18, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

I also disagree that it would be too detailed. Looking at the Mr. Burns article will reveal that there is a laundry list of things he has said that evidences his mental disconnect from the present day and a list of things pertaining to his ill-health & old age. If this list stands up and is not removed as being "too detailed", surely a list of miscellaneous facts about Bart will not become too detailed for Wikipedia. takethemud 16:18, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

I also disagree that these facts can be worked into the article. Take, for instance, Abe Simpsons' page: There are little factoids that aren't worked in- his appearance in a newspaper, his height. Same for Seymour Skinner- note how his allergy is just plopped into the middle of an article. Sure, some editing would make some of them fit, but there would still be some factoids that would best fit in a 'trivia' or 'miscellanea' section in a bulleted list. By making a section for these things, it gives a place for us to put little facts that are interesting to know but have no place in the other sections of the article. takethemud 16:18, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps you should check up the WikiProject Simpsons article improvement drive. Those articles are not good examples because they haven't been cleaned up yet. Homer Simpson would be a better comparison, since it is already a good article. Natalie 16:22, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Fair enough. I still think that until this article is cleaned up, a trivia section should still exist. It will give contributors a place to list random facts about Bart, which can later be incorporated into the article more smoothly. And, if there are facts which are worthy of inclusion in Wikipedia but that do not work in the article, a section like this would provide a home for them. takethemud 16:35, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

I removed the section, we're trying to clean up the article, and adding sections with unessential information makes no sense. So, he's allergic to Shrimp. We decided not to have a biography, so it can't go there. It doesn't belong in Personality, Origins, or Cultural influence, thus making it un needed. Besides, he's also allergicto butterscotch, imitation butterscotch and halloween make up. And those pages you cited haven't been worked on yet, their trivia sections will be rid of eventually. -- Scorpion 17:31, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps people could propose additions of trivia-type info on the talk page, and then we could incorporate them into the article if they seem significant. It's important to remember, since the Simpsons has been going for 18 seasons so far, that every character (even the minor ones) have a lot of trivia. We shouldn't add info to the article unless it's a regularly occuring situation (like Bart's poor grades) or is a significant explanation of the character (like Bart's ADD diagnosis). Otherwise we are bordering on Simpsons-wiki territory. Natalie 18:57, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

On the subject of missing trivia, I think the whole thing about how... the merchandise always used a blue shirt for some reason, or how Nancy Cartwright wasn't allowed to do the voice in public as it violated trademark or something.

Bart's Full Name?

What is the name of the episode where Bart's full name is revealed (Bartholomew Jo-Jo Simpson)? I seem to recall Pincipal Skinner discovering his full name in a filing cabinet, while Bart is performing on stage ... or something along along those lines. I always thought that it was the episode where Bart is forced to take up ballet lessons ("Homer vs. Patty & Selma"), but having seen that episode a few times I discovered that the scene I was thinking of was absent. I've seen pretty much every "Simpsons" episode and I still can't figure out where Bart's full name is first mentioned. If anyone knows the episode I am refering to, or can shed some light on the subject I would be very grateful, as it has always bugged me. I also think it would be worth including the origins of Bart's name in the article for further referencing.

It was in "The Bart Book". Cheers to 2007! User:Sp3000 05:36, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Character origins

The link brat links to a disambig page on which none of the entries seems the obviously relevant one. BTW, brat is the word for brother in some Slavic languages e.g. Polish.--Patek 21:00, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Bart`s real birthdate

Though the Barts Book says he was born on April the first 1982. In an episode were Homer was asked for Barts birthday he said that he always remembered Barts birthday because he was born the same date as Hitler, and Hitler was born on April 20. Im sure he would have a special way to remember his first born birthday.

Edit by cherries01 : Someone should edit this article, it says bart was born in 1979 but that would be impossible because he was conceived in the episode "I married Marge" which was in 1980. So this is kind of confusing...

What about Bart's "evil" twin?

Someone should write something about Bart's evil twin either by putting under 'family' or at least including it in the main text.

PS This is the first time Ive done something on Wikipedia even though I use it nearly every day so eff off if I did this wrong! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 59.167.23.38 (talk) 02:09, 4 March 2007 (UTC).

Halloween specials are never canon. If they are, then Maggie speaks like Darth Vader and is an alien's daughter. Gdo01 02:14, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Merchandising Hyperbole?

In the second paragraph of the "Cultural Influence" section, I think the end of the last sentence ("however, and even went beyond Garfield merchandise too.") should be erased, clarified, cited, or at least generally syntactically improved. Those words are superfluous and imprecise and do not add anything to the article.

ADHD

I think someone should remove that stuff about ADHD, the episode was actually more of a satire than anything, it wasn't really "revealing" anything. It sounds like someone wanting to tell thier little theories. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.167.48.62 (talk)

It is not NPOV. I am going to delete it.

THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO REFERENCE TO ADHD AND THE SIMPSON GENE BEING RELAETED! SOMEONE IS JUST GOING ON WITH THEIR OWN LITTLE COMFORT THEORY.

COULD SOMEONE PROVIDE A REFERENCE THAT THE TWO ARE RELATED?

"...even before the revealing of the Simpson gene, as Bart exhibited many of the traits of a child afflicted with ADD. His extreme mental quickness coupled with his inability to be able to keep his attention set on mediocre work at school such as in the episode "Bart Gets an F" are big hints"

This section, at least, violates NPOV, and it will be deleted. The remaining reference to ADHD needs to be debated or it should also be deleted.

Uh, you have to actually explain why something is POV - it isn't good enough to declare it POV and be done with it. Also, please don't shout, and son't forget to sign your posts! Natalie 13:27, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Williams syndrome

OK, I have no idea where you get the idea that bart has williams syndrome, that is completely ridiculous, I am going to remove it. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 60.229.233.51 (talk) 02:44, 31 March 2007 (UTC).

Were you trying to communicate a compromise with me through the article?

Bart inspiration

Regarding the citation needed tag about Groening considering Dennis the Menace too tame, he said it in the DVD commentary for Two Bad Neighbors. It's 5AM where I live, so someone else can figure out how to cite it. TJ Spyke 09:10, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Age

Barts age is always april 1st but only in barts girlfreind did he not celebrasebrate his birthday! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Meetthemat (talk • contribs) 16:29, 2 September 2008 (UTC) Anybody knows what his date of birth is? I know he's 2 years and 38 days older then Lisa ( episode: lisa is babysit)— Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.201.198.77 (talk) 17:35 , 27 April 2007

MR. EAT MY SHORTS!!!!!!!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.165.124.160 (talk) 01:22, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Since Bart is forever the same age (approximately), it is unlikely that a year of birth will be given on the show, unless of course the writers want to prank the show's nitpickers. Supposedly The Bart Book (a source of questionable canonicity) gives 1 April 1979 (hint). Were this true, and if the show kept a time continuity comparable to real life, it would be perpetually set in the years 1989-1990, which is contradicted by a preponderance of prochronistic topical references (the Bush/Cheney '04 sign, for instance).

Both Bart (usually age 10) and Lisa (8) have had birthday episodes in the show, but in general they do not age in real time. / edgarde 18:42, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm not surprised his birthday is on April Fools' Day.. Like the Weasley Twins, they're sorta alike. Megan and Ruby(dog) 22:01, 18 July 2007 (UTC) Why isnt his age in the profile? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.110.165.153 (talk) 00:46, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Because it was removed from the infobox template as (aside from Lisa and Bart) ages are speculation. Gran² 15:31, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

Homer is age 39 (From an episode in series 10), Maggie is 1 and the age of r=the others was probably stated at sometime--Smallbig/Anonymous101 on Wikinews 12:34, 13 January 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Smallbig (talk • contribs)

Bart's birthday can't be on April First because there was an episode set on April First and it wasn't his birthday Fegor (talk) 18:19, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Bart: 10 Lisa: 8 However, one one episode it's Lisa's birthday and she turns 9, however, in the next episodes, she is still known as 8. Howevr, this may be beacuse of a quote in the episode where Homer says, "Lets pretend it's you Birthday" To which Lisa replies "It is my Birthday" To which Homor answeres "That's the spirit!

dates are all pretty meaningless in the Simpsons...there has never been any indication as to Bart's birthday CTJF83Talk 01:55, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Bart Nude

I noticed there's zero mention of Bart's wang being shown in The Simpsons Movie, think we should include it? DisgruntledEditor 03:16, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

No. -- Scorpion⁰⁴²² 03:25, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Would you like to elaborate on your reasoning? I for one don't see whats wrong with mentioning it somehow.--Joebengo 04:30, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

It was removed [1] on the ground that it is supposedly too trivial, but as far as I am concerned you are welcome to restore it. Nudity in the movie industry is not trivial, but determining important ratings and sentiments, and therefore carefully crafted.--Patrick 07:02, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

It is already in The simpsons Movie article under the "release" section. I don't think it's noteworthy for mention outside of the Movie page. --Simpsons fan 66 10:43, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

I agree with both Patrick and Simpsons fan 66. It is significant, and it should be covered in the article for the movie, not here. It's a single-episode situation. / edg

Bartman

What happened to the Bartman part of the article? --Cheeze Master 21:53, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

There's a whole Do the Bartman article, so I assume it was cut as redundant. Natalie 22:37, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:BartNews.png

Image:BartNews.png is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

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BetacommandBot 06:38, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

middle name

His middle name is Jo-jo or Jojo. Jake the Editor Man _(talk) 18:01, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

I would like to see the source of this fact mentioned in the article, as it is not widely known. Could you supply that somewhere? Thewrongidea (talk) 02:09, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Q: What's your full name ?

A: Bartholomew Jo-Jo Simpson.

The Simpsons Archive: Bart Simpson Interview (1998) http://www.snpp.com/other/interviews/bartsimpson98.html --91.153.19.74 (talk) 19:41, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

I am aware of that, but it's a non-canon source and the article doesn't mention who wrote it (was it the writers, Nancy Cartwright or some random guy?) so I think we should leave it out. -- Scorpion⁰⁴²² 19:53, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm sure it said it in the The Bart Book as well. Leo (talk) 01:31, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

format

perhaps this and all the simpsons character's pages should all be in the same format (regardless of which gets chosen) to make them more readable when a person wants to go from this one to homer to marge, etc. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.4.109.188 (talk) 04:23, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Barts linguistic

Of course bart posses linguistic skills he`s not mute! Someone deleted the has amazing linguistic skills part! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Meetthemat (talk • contribs) 16:33, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

What exactly are you talking about? CTJF83Talk 21:54, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Userboxes

• Here are some userboxes for Bart fans: {{User:StitchPedia/Eat My Shorts!}} and {{User:UBX/bsimpson}}

BartThis user wants you to "Eat my shorts!"

BartThis user is an underachiever and proud of it. "Ay Caramba!"

Bart's Figure

Do you think we should put in that he has the figure of Homer's body, wherein it's pear shaped?

Bart's deeds

In the Halloween Horror XVI episode Survival of the fattest Bart claims to have killed a bird. Marge replies with "He still thinks that Hobo was a bird" So Bart killed a hobo.... grtz dinoballz 09:00

• Halloween episodes don't count as canon. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.215.222.65 (talk) 22:04, August 20, 2007 (UTC)

comments / questions from Zagalejo

Sorry it's taken me so long to do this! Anyway, here are my thoughts. I'll add to them as I work my way through the article. Zagalejo^^^ 23:31, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

• Lead

• Is Bart's middle name actually mentioned in any episodes?

• No, but it's been in several official books. This is mentioned/cited in the creation section (near the end of the first paragraph).

• What other books is it mentioned in? I'm a little concerned we might be giving undue weight to a throwaway gag. Zagalejo^^^ 03:23, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

• I'm not disagreeing with you, but it has been stated as his middle name and even if it's removed IPs will re-add it, so it should be explained somewhere in the article. Would you prefer that I remove the in-article mention and instead add a note? -- Scorpion⁰⁴²² 12:35, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

• I think it's fine to mention the middle name in the body of the article. But including it in the first sentence just doesn't fly with me. Any third opinions out there? Zagalejo^^^ 20:44, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

• I don't think we should list it from a book, just info from episodes. CTJF83Talk 22:06, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

• "a fictional main character" seems awkward. Is this the standard phrasing for TV character articles?

• It's the phrasing used in Homer's page.

• Role in the Simpsons

• I'm not sure what to make of the "Role in the Simpsons" section. It's pretty skimpy, and I don't think it's necessary to worry about his in-universe birthdate. It seems that anything worthwhile in this section could be included in "Personality". Zagalejo^^^ 23:31, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

• Yeah, that was my impression of it too, but I've left it because "role" is a standard section in Simpsons character articles. Also I've been meaning to expand it, but I haven't gotten around to it yet. -- Scorpion⁰⁴²² 00:19, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

• Design

• He was also "meaner looking" with a larger nose. - I don't quite understand what this means. Zagalejo^^^ 20:53, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

• Removed.

• OK. Zagalejo^^^ 00:55, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

• Voice

• Smith was given the role of Lisa instead. On March 13, 1987, Nancy Cartwright went in to audition for the role of Lisa. - The sequence of these sentences might be confusing. I'm assuming Smith received the role of Lisa after Cartwright went in to audition for it.

• I'm actually not sure what the correct sequence is, because in her book, Cartwright says she was the only one to read for Bart, but in interviews, Smith has said she did audition for him. That is also what I'm assuming.

• Cartwright became more interested in the role of Bart who she found more fascinating. - This is kind of vague. Are there any specific aspects of Bart that she found appealing? Zagalejo^^^ 21:03, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

• Yes, she discusses it a lot in her book and I have expanded it.

• Good work. Zagalejo^^^ 00:55, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

• The only episode where Bart is voiced by someone other than Cartwright is in "Separate Vocations" (season three, 1992). He was voiced by Steve Allen in a fantasy sequence where Bart considers taking a position as a hall monitor and imagines what life as a snitch would be like. In the ensuing fantasy, Bart testifies in court with his voice electronically altered to sound like Allen. - Does this really count as an episode in which someone else provides the voice for Bart? Allen's voice isn't supposed to be Bart's real voice. The gag is that Bart's voice is being altered to protect his identity. Zagalejo^^^ 21:09, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

• I suppose you're right, want me to remove it? -- Scorpion⁰⁴²² 00:30, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

• It can probably go. Zagalejo^^^ 00:55, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

• Hallmarks

• The idea behind it was that there would be a long sequence so the show could cut down on animation, but some parts of it would change every episode. What do the two its refer to? The opening sequence as a whole, or the chalkboard gag?

• The whole sequence. Reworded.

• OK. Zagalejo^^^

• That paragraph about Bart's "nude scenes" strikes me as a bit strange. It's not poorly written or anything; it just seems like an unusual topic to discuss in such detail. Zagalejo^^^ 01:09, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

• Well, I wanted to include something about his nudity in the movie and it seemed out of place everywhere else, so I created a small paragraph about it. -- Scorpion⁰⁴²² 01:26, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

• Personality

• Regarding the first box quote: is "Ullman shorts" italicized in the original source?

• No, fixed.

• OK. Zagalejo^^^ 09:42, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

• The first paragraph of that section seems to lack focus. It might be better as two (or maybe three) smaller paragraphs. Zagalejo^^^ 01:14, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

• I disagree, it starts out with his lack of respect for authority, then transitions into his disruptiveness at school.

• Well, it could at least use some smoother transitions from one sentence to another. Right now, it reads (to me) like a breathless stream of ideas. Zagalejo^^^ 09:42, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

• Yeah, that tends to be one of my main problems when I write things, I constantly jump from one idea to the next. I've fiddled around with it a bit, and I split it into two paragraphs, is it better?

• A little better, but it could still use some polishing. The second paragraph seems to contradict itself. At one point, we say that Bart is "dumber than a hamster", but then we say that he isn't dumb, and merely struggles with ADD. Zagalejo^^^ 05:32, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

• Well the show does contradict itself a lot too. That part of the paragraph simply states that Bart is dumb, but his troubles could be attributed to ADD. -- Scorpion⁰⁴²² 15:23, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

• Bartmania

• Due to the show's success, over summer 1990, the Fox Network decided to switch The Simpsons' timeslot so that it would move from 8:00 p.m. on Sunday night to the same time on Thursday where it would compete with The Cosby Show on NBC, the number one show at the time. - I assume that's 8:00 Eastern Standard Time, right? Zagalejo^^^ 01:28, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

• Yes.

• OK. Zagalejo^^^ 09:42, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

• In the weekly ratings, it tied for eighth behind The Cosby Show which had an 18.5 rating. An estimated 33.6 million viewers, however, watched the episode, making it the number one show in terms of actual viewers that week. - I'm not sure how to interpret this. Zagalejo^^^ 01:31, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

• Well, the the Nielsen rating is determined by the number of households (TVs) that are tuned into a certain show. However, the 33.6 million is their estimate of how many people actually watched the episode.

• Hmmm. Is there a way to clarify that in the article? Zagalejo^^^ 09:42, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

• Done. Is it better now?

• Better, although it would be interesting to learn exactly how they derived those figures. Zagalejo^^^ 05:32, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

• Yes, but that would be getting into overdetailing/undue weight territory. -- Scorpion⁰⁴²² 15:23, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

• I don't think most people realize that there are separate numbers for households and total viewers. A little more detail regarding Nielsen's methods would be fair, I think. Zagalejo^^^ 04:57, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

• Yeah, but this article is about Bart, not the Nielsen system. I was already uneasy about adding the episode ratings in the first place because it does tread a bit off-topic (but I decided to add it because it was a huge part of the discussed "Bill/Bart" rivalry) but I think adding an explanation would be going too far. There are a lot of the things in the article that could be expanded (like how voice recording sessions work) but doing so would tread too far off-topic. -- Scorpion⁰⁴²² 19:38, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

• Bart as a role model

• Do we really want to describe William Bennett as the "drug czar"? That's an informal term. Zagalejo^^^ 01:44, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

• I basically used it because it's better than "director of the Office of National Drug Control Policy"

• In response, Matt Groening said "that sums up Bart, all right. Most people are in a struggle to be normal he thinks normal is very boring, and does things that others just wished they dare do." - Is this a faithful reproduction of the quote as presented in the cited article? It's a run-on sentence. Zagalejo^^^ 01:41, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

• It's an exact quote.

• There must be some sort of punctuation between normal and he. Was the article retrieved from Newsbank or something? It could be that someone transcribed it incorrectly. Zagalejo^^^ 09:42, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

• Yes it is from Newsbank, and I suppose it is possible there was a transcribing error. This is the exact completely unaltered quote: Groening has no quarrel with Cosby's description of Bart as angry, confused, and frustrated. "That sums up Bart, all right. Most people are in a struggle to be normal he thinks normal is very boring, and does things that others just wished they dare do. "

• Merchandising

• The Bart Book, a book about Bart's personality and attributes, was released in 2004 and is commercially available - I'd remove "and is commercially available". Zagalejo^^^ 01:53, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

• Done. Thanks a lot for your help. -- Scorpion⁰⁴²² 17:34, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

So are there any outstanding issues that should still be addressed? -- Scorpion⁰⁴²² 19:38, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

I think I'd like to read through the article a few more times. I'm sure I missed a few things. For starters, I know that there are some remaining issues with logical quotations. I'll try to add some more comments within the next few days. Zagalejo^^^ 20:52, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

I'm working on the quotations at the moment. I have a few other comments, which I'll add below:

• General

• How exactly is Bart's middle name rendered? Jojo, JoJo, Jo-Jo, Jo Jo, etc? And have we reached a consensus whether to include the middle name in the lead?

• I actually don't have the book, but I'll either try and find someone who does, or go to Chapters this week and check.

• Design

• Groening designed Bart with an unusual hair style because at the time he was primarily drawing in black and "not thinking that [Bart] would eventually be drawn in color" gave him spikes which appear to be an extension of his head. - This sentence is somewhat awkward. Is there a good way to shuffle things around? Zagalejo^^^ 20:21, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

• I've taken a crack at it, is it better?

• Looks better. Zagalejo^^^ 22:41, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

• Hallmarks

• Bart's other catchphrases, "¡Ay, caramba!", and "Don't have a cow, man!" were featured on t-shirts in the initial show's run. - What exactly does "initial show's run" mean? Zagalejo^^^ 20:51, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

• I'm actually not sure. Removed. -- Scorpion⁰⁴²² 22:35, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

• OK. Zagalejo^^^ 22:41, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

• Bart as a role model

• In 2003, Bart placed first in a poll of parents in the United Kingdom who were asked who is the best role model for children under 12 years old. - I don't think the parents said he was the best role model - just the character the kids most frequently look up to (for better or for worse). Zagalejo^^^ 23:14, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

• Hmm, it's not really clear. The very first line reads "Simpson's bad boy Bart has been named the top role model for kids - by their parents" which gives the impression that they were asked who the best role model was. However, it later says they were asked "which made-up character had the most influence on their kids", with the key word being most (rather than best). I believe that you are right, and I'll reword that part accordingly. As it is now, I'm tempted to just remove it, although I will see if I can find a better poll. It would be such a nice ending to the section to mention that a decade after the bad role model furor parents named him a good role model. -- Scorpion⁰⁴²² 21:56, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Comments from jackyd101

Hi, I'm sorry its taken me so long to get to this. I actually somehow missed the request on my talk page. I'll do a copyedit but it might take a few days (feel free to start any review processes during this time). I'll leave any questions I have on this page.--Jackyd101 (talk) 20:09, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

"Nancy Cartwright originally planned to audition" - perhaps at "In casting" to the front of this sentence.

Done.

"which she thought was a better role. Hallmarks of the character" - this thought ends nowhere, you talk about Cartwright not wanting the role but don't actually mention that she got it or how.

I admit it is a little jumpy, but the lead is only susposed to provide a summary of the article, and that is expanded upon quite a bit in the voice section.

Yes, but you don't finish the thought by explaining that when they were cast, their roles were reversed. It may seem obvious to you, but other people will need the complete information.

More to come.--Jackyd101 (talk) 20:09, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Thanks a lot for the review, I really appreciate it. -- Scorpion⁰⁴²² 20:25, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

"entertaining him with various gestures. He began to entertain a group of children with rude words." - is there a way to merge these sentences and not use "entertain" twice so close together.

DOne.

"too obvious for him to have named the character Matt." - in the lead you said this was an anagram of brat. Which is it? (If it is both, then say so).

It is both. He used an anagram of brat because it would have been "too obvious for him to have named the character Matt"

Then say so in the main body of the article as well.

"3D vinyl Bart dolls" - I removed the 3D, because a vinyl doll is inevitably 3D.

"Many episodes do not feature a chalkboard gag" - presumably this is more recent episodes? If so, say so.

Well, it's both. I'd say about half the episodes all over the series don't have gags.

Is this episodes without a chalkboard gag at all or ones that just reuse an earlier one?

Episodes without one. [2] -- Scorpion⁰⁴²² 20:26, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

"these characteristics were toned down somewhat" - say why.

Okay.

"One summer . . . and manages to appease Bart" - lengthy divergence into the events of a single episode. Trim it down substantially.

Done.

"struggle to be normal he thinks normal is" - I know it is a quote, but this surely has some form of punctuation here?

You are the third copyeditor to ask me about that sentence. Yes, it is an exact quote (and I copied it to the above questions from Zagalejo section)

Heh. It might be worth using [sic] or including an embedded comment to that effect.

"44th Primetime Emmy Awards" - which year was this?

1992. Added.

And thats it. A very good article which represents a prodigious volume of research. Well done and good luck at FAC.--Jackyd101 (talk) 19:49, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Thanks a lot for the review. -- Scorpion⁰⁴²² 19:55, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

To-do list

For personal use.

Commentaries I need to listen to

• There's No Disgrace Like Home (MG once pitched Bart as a spokescharacter for Jell-O)
• Bart the Murderer (first commentary with Cartwright)
• Separate Vocations (for info about Steve Allen as Bart)
• Bart Gets an F
• Bart the Daredevil
• Bart Gets Famous

Stuff I need to add

• info on chalkboard gags
• Do the Bartman and Deep, Deep Trouble
• More about Bart as a role model
• Some stuff about his 3D design in THOHVI
• Beef up merchandising
• Add some more info about Butterfinger
• Clean up the Role section and create a personality section
• Create an analysis section (not necessary for GA, but it does eventually need to be done)
• Try and find some criticism of Bart in countries other than the US (haven't found any notable critics from Canada)
• Add a bit more about his catchphrases
• Prank phone calls
• Hallmarks section???
• Bart Simpson comics
• Bartman?
• Macy's Thanksgiving parade balloon
• Nazi Bart T-shirts
• Nudity in the movie

-- Scorpion⁰⁴²² 14:31, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

To be re-added eventually

In his book Planet Simpson, Chris Turner describes Bart as a nihilist. Bart's character traits of rebelliousness and disrespect for authority has been likened to that of America's founding fathers, rendering him an updated version of American icons Tom Sawyer and Huckleberry Finn, rolled into one." -- Scorpion⁰⁴²² 15:07, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

[3]

Images to consider/add

• Non-free
  • Bart's doodle in the Simpsons Movie - But I would not be able to provide an adequate rationale for this. It was a very notable and discussed moment, but there are so many much better images that could be included. However, it would be funny and thus it is tempting.  Done
  • An image of a T-Shirt, preferably the controversial "I'm Bart Simpson, who the hell are you?" one.
  • An early sketch or drawing of the character
  • An image of Bart from "Good Night"  Done
  • Possibly an evolution image
  • An image of Bart and Milhouse???
  • Bart in a Butterfinger add
  • An image of the Macy's Thanksgiving Day Parade balloon.
  • Would probably only be able to get away with 5 FU images at most. With two in the article already, a T-shirt, an early sketch and Good Night are my top choices

• Free
  • For creation:
    • Matt Groening or James L. Brooks  Done
  • For "Bartmania"
    • Michael Jackson???  Done
    • George Bush???
    • Bill Cosby???

-- Scorpion⁰⁴²² 17:04, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

References

Website

Hi,

As owner of www.ayecarumba.net , a non-profit website dedicated to Bart Simpson, I was wondering whether it was appropriate to put this link in the external websites section. Please let me know what you think.

Many thanks Graz-d (talk) 11:38, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

That depends, is it a fansite? We generally avoid linking to fansites on Simpsons pages, The Simpsons Archive being the sole exception. -- Scorpion⁰⁴²² 14:39, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, it is kinda (although I would personally call it bigger than just a fansite!) , so I understand why it might be unsuitable for WP...though it is linked from The Simpsons Archive itself. Have a quick look if you have time :)Graz-d (talk) 17:23, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

It looks just like any other fansite of the Simpsons. We can't list every Simpsons fansite, it would be a never ending list. CTJF83Talk 17:34, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

El Barto

El Barto redirects here, but the obvious fact that El Barto is Bart is not mentioned in the article, even as an AKA / tag / handle. The referenced Alter Egos section was merged away / cut. What should El Barto point at now?

Homer: See boy! The real money is in bootlegging, not in your childish vandalism. Bart: So many wasted nights. Homer vs. the Eighteenth Amendment There should be a new page made for el barto —Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.168.144.168 (talk) 09:37, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

--LeedsKing (talk) 17:40, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

Looking through the edit history, the vandalism done here is very childish. Most of it doesn't make any sense.--Dan2paul (talk) 10:24, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

The "nude" scene in The Simpsons Movie

• Just so everybody knows, the image of Bart nude is fairly acceptable, but please do not use any photos exposing Bart's dick as this could cause a fair use rational in the image.--70.240.215.204 (talk) 03:12, 16 January 2009 (UTC)Chris

• • "this could cause a fair use rational in the image" - please explain. Also, such an image will never be added because of how the scene works. When his penis is revealed, the rest of his body is hidden, so it's not the best image to add. -- Scorpion⁰⁴²² 03:21, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

• • • To correct myself, I meant to say that the image would offend other people.--70.240.215.204 (talk) 20:44, 17 January 2009 (UTC)Chris

• • • • That seems rather silly. How could a little yellow penis, where the rest of the body is hidden, offend anyone. You do know that it is not real? Wikipedia is not censored anyway. --Maitch (talk) 13:24, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

• • • • • I thought "Fair use Rationale" has something to do with copyrighted content. As a side note, I'm erasing "JoJo" but I am not sure if his middle name is "Jay" or "Bouvier". Please make the changes if needed.--Dan2paul (talk) 09:50, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

Infobox > Relatives

Why is Clancy Bouvier not listed as one of Bart Simpson's grandparents? Alex Douglas (talk) 02:33, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

Only the main relatives are listed in the infobox. Otherwise it would get too cluttered. TheLeftorium 09:40, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

Bart as Supreme Court Justice

In the episode [|Itchy and Scratchy: The Movie] it is shown in a flash-forward that Bart grows up to become Chief Justice of the Supreme Court. This isn't a dream, nor a fortune-teller story, so isn't it cannon? As such, I would think it would be notable to the character's bio. 68.8.202.217 (talk) 17:58, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

No, it is only shown for a few seconds, and is not a regular job. The same reason we don't list Homer's hundreds of jobs. CTJF83 chat 18:07, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

French?

I distinctly remember Bart being kidnapped in France and learning to speak French. Why is this not mentioned? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 152.117.237.58 (talk) 23:29, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

You're probably thinking of The Crepes of Wrath. We can't mention everything from every episode here, but we do have an entire separate article about that episode. Zagalejo^^^ 00:46, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

T-Shirt color

Barts T-Shirt is sometimes blue, mostly on old merchandise stuff. But there is no mention about that. 62.224.79.184 (talk) 14:01, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

Mort Simpson

OK, I thought I'd start a topic on the talk page of the article now that it's locked to give us the chance to resolve this.

I cannot find anything in Google to say that Bart was originally going to be called Mort. I have even looked on The Simpsons Wikia and on The Simpsons website and nothing is there. I'm inclined to think that if this was true then it would be stated elsewhere.

In any case, myself and others can't get the video to play. No idea why as I don't understand the error message. I did try to copy the error message on to here but I can't. However if it won't play to everyone then it won't be verifiable to everyone and in that case, if another source can't be found, I'm inclined to think that it has to stay out of the article.

Thoughts anyone?--5 albert square (talk) 23:42, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

I can guarantee it is false. As good as WP:DOH is, collectively we have watched all the current DVD commentaries, and surely something as major as a original name would have shown up. CTJF83 chat 23:46, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

Well actually I have managed to get the video to play, and Bonnie Pietila does indeed mention in it that Bart was very briefly meant to be called Mort. However, the fact that this was only for "one day", which is fairly ambigous and the fact that it hasn't been mentioned anywhere else means it shouldn't be in the article because it isn't notable and may not really be very accurate. Also, for stuff like this, I'd rather here it directly from Matt Groening and he has only ever mentioned he chose Bart instead of his own name because it was an anagram of brat. Gran² 23:50, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

In my opinion it has to be mentioned, because Bart Simpson is one of the biggest made-up characters in popular culture and because the article is favorite. --Pek (talk) 23:53, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

Then you need a better, more reliable source then a video that, apparently, most people can't even view. CTJF83 chat 23:55, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

You need to download Microsoft Silverlight to be able to play it, also you can't play it if you are using Linux. --Pek (talk) 23:56, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

Also the video's site is realible, it is from Finnish MTV3 video bank. --Pek (talk) 23:58, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

I have a number of Simpsons books and memorabilia talking about the Simpsons and none of it mentions "Mort" anywhere. If it was notable, it would be mentioned somewhere other than on a poorly trafficked website in a video that most of us can't even get to play. I have Silverlight installed -- I use with some programming software on a Windows 7 computer and it still doesn't play for me. Banaticus (talk) 00:00, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

Are you sure you have the newest version of Silverlight? I would like also to say that this specific video is very rare footage because it was special interview of Bonita Pietila (who has family roots from Finland) by Finnish media, which is the reason for that Bonita released some very unic information about Bart and talked about episodes where was references to Finland, so overall it is quite special source in my opinion. By the way, here is screenshot of the video (part where Mort was mentioned). --Pek (talk) 00:03, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

If it was only considered for a day then I'd say this wasn't notable enough to be included in the article. If it's for only one day I'm inclined to believe that it wasn't seriously considered. I'm sure if it was seriously considered it would have been in something other than the source mentioned above by now.--5 albert square (talk) 00:08, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

I just updated Silverlight on Tuesday and a newer version hasn't been released since. It sounds like (if it was only considered "for a day") that it was more of a brainstorming session. Banaticus (talk) 00:09, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

It was the original plan, original idea, but when The Simpsons aired for first time at The Tracey Ullman Show it was changed before it to Bart. --Pek (talk) 00:13, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

You're giving "talks of a different name" too much undue weight, with no other source mentioning it. Plus even if there was a reliable source, it definitely does not belong in the opening sentence. CTJF83 chat 00:15, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

I just asked Jim Brooks on Twitter and his response was "not true". I think this wraps the issue up. I can only assume Bonnie has her wires crossed: even if she is correct, it has no place here. Gran² 00:16, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

I don't think Jim Brooks even knows anything about the original plans, because it seems like from the video source that Matt Groening only told that plan to Bonnie Pietila, when she had first call with him about The Simpsons. (This info is however more like a speculation, but the fact that Bart was going to be Mort in the original plans it is indeed true.) --Pek (talk) 00:21, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

As I mentioned, even if true, it gives way too much WP:UNDUE weight, 1 day compared to 23 years as Bart? CTJF83 chat 00:23, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

I'd normally say that Twitter isn't reliable but that's a verified account so I'm guessing that it's true. Pek, if Matt only suggested that just to Bonnie then to me that suggests it wasn't a serious idea and therefore shouldn't be included. Surely if it was seriously suggested, everyone would be involved in the decision?--5 albert square (talk) 00:24, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

I can't see any question about Mort Simpson there? Also it could be possible that he just doesn't remember it, but I doubt that. Kinda strange that Wikipedia can use Twitter as source since it isn't third-party source if the person itself writes thing there (or thats what I assume how it works). --Pek (talk) 00:29, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

My bad, I found the question now. It was here. --Pek (talk) 00:35, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

Why would Jim Brooks, the man who was (according the offical line at least) the first person in the world to see the Simpsons, not know the original plans? Groening went to Brooks to pitch Life in Hell, he sketched the Simpsons in the lobby outside his office 15 minutes before going to see him. Apart from Groening he is the single most authoritative source there is. Gran² 00:27, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

That indeed sounds a bit strange, but I believe more that Brooks didn't know it or don't remember it then the fact that Bonita lied about the name to respected Finnish media MTV3. --Pek (talk) 00:31, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

I could see it possibly being mentioned in an aside like, "One of the names tossed around for the Bart character during brainstorming sessions was Mort" but even that seems a little strong in the face of what we currently "know" -- it flies in the face of too much established Simpsons history. This might be something like the Millikan Oil drop experiment errors, where nobody wanted to differ too much from the first established experiment and experimenters crept up on the results, but I still would want to see this in other sources first. Banaticus (talk) 00:30, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

Is it possible to vote for things like this? I mean voting for information in the article. --Pek (talk) 00:33, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

We go by consensus. If the general consensus is that it should be included in the article then it will be included. If the consensus is that it shouldn't then it won't be included.--5 albert square (talk) 00:38, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

We are "voting" on it right now by debating facts and precedent. Pek, when I look at the article page, the video itself doesn't work and trying to click on the video link just redirects me to the homepage of the site. Perhaps the site doesn't want to show the link to people in the US. Anyway, since our argument mainly boils down to whether that video is a reliable source compared to Jim Brooks' Twitter post, you might want to go to the Reliable sources/Noticeboard and see how other editors feel about the reliability of that video. :) Banaticus (talk) 00:41, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

Okay, thanks for help. --Pek (talk) 00:46, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

First of all, there's always the possiblity that she was joking. Secondly, as others have mentioned, this is the first time anyone related with the show has mentioned this. In all the interviews with Matt Groening, James L. Brooks, Nancy Cartwright, all of the EPs and all of the writers, nobody has ever mentioned this. Thirdly, if the character even was known as Mort for a single day, who cares? The name never made it into the show or into the merchandise. The only reason the public knows it exists is because it was mentioned, off-hand, by a producer. According to the writing duo of Kogen & Wolodarsky, in their script for Homer's Odyssey, they put Marge's name as Juliet. But, it's not mentioned in her article, because it was a temporary name everybody knew wasn't going to last, and indeed it didn't. -- Scorpion⁰⁴²² 00:57, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

That most likely was accident, this case isn't accident and it is the first plan ever existed, which in my opinion gives it some reliability. --Pek (talk) 01:05, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

Wait a second here, are you even familiar with the story of The Simpsons and how Matt Groening named the characters? What makes you think that, even if it happened, that it was ever meant to be permanent? Her statement was so ambiguous that for all we know it could also have been a mistake. Why should we ever use that source to go against the common creation story, that Matt Groening created and named the characters in 15 minutes has been around 22 years and has been published in so many reliable sources? -- Scorpion⁰⁴²² 01:15, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

Maybe I should try to contact Bonita somehow and ask hir why this was something which no one ever knew, that was it purposely kept as secret for some reason. --Pek (talk) 02:11, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

I think I might have something interesting. If you look at this picture, you can see Bart in Life in Hell comics, now if we find a comic where his name is mentioned it should be Mort. That way we can prove that the name Mort was used before The Simpsons and we will also prove that Bonita Pietila is telling truth and then add the information to the article. --Pek (talk) 02:22, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

You're starting to go a little far here. First of all, how do you know that the image was from before The Simpsons debuted? Secondly, what makes you assume that Bart, renamed Mort, was a regular character in Life in Hell? After all, did she not say FOR ONE DAY (if true, maybe it was just for a casting call)? Finally, I'm not sure why you would possibly take the word of a casting director over the word of the man who created the character. -- Scorpion⁰⁴²² 02:37, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

What it comes down to is this: there is one interview which goes against hundreds of interviews given by the likes of Matt Groening, James L. Brooks and Nancy Cartwright. For all we know, she could have been joking. She also does not give any context in her statement: if she's not joking, then it could have been for a casting call, it could have been a mistake. It does not mean that everyone else is lying, or that everyone else does not know the real truth. James L. Brooks was asked on twitter, and he said this is not true. And, if you ignore all of that, it's still a name that the character had for one day, and it never made it to the show, any kind of merchandise, or was considered major enough to be mentioned elsewhere. Nobody else agrees with you that this should be mentioned based on the sources you have provided. I suggest you move on, and maybe it will be mentioned again in another interview in better detail. -- Scorpion⁰⁴²² 02:53, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

26.9. Suomi-Bonita Simpsoneiden menestyksen takana states in Finnish: "Roolittaja ja tuottaja Bonita Pietila kertoo 45 minuutin erikoishaastattelussa, miten vauhdilla tehty roolitus oikein tapahtui. Hän paljastaa myös, mikä oli Bart Simpsonin alkuperäinen nimi.", which translated in English is: "Casting director and producer Bonita Pietila tells in 45 minuttia -television programs special interview, how "speedly" directing happend. She also reveals what was Bart's original name." Now why the hell would MTV3 write such a thing if they would know it would be just a big joke (or more likely a lie, because I don't see anything "funny" saying: that the character was Mort, not Bart). --Pek (talk) 03:27, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

Even if it wasn'T a joke, it was only one day. Perhaps it was only brainstorming because the name "Mort" wasn't used official and wasn't mentioned in another interview. Until we find a second source, the infomation is not notable to put it into the article. --Morten Haan (talk) 14:02, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

Right, so are we agreed then, unless there is another source also stating this that this should then stay out of the article?--5 albert square (talk) 23:05, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

I agree with that, 5 albert square. AnemoneProjectors 12:31, 21 January 2011 (UTC)

Also, I can't help but notice that Pek added the exact same thing to the Finnish wiki. I'd remove it there, but he has the advantage as he uses the Finnish wiki (and speaks Finnish) so he'd probably re-add it immediately and I don't have the desire to keep an eye on pages for other language wikis. -- Scorpion⁰⁴²² 21:57, 22 January 2011 (UTC)

I have messaged Pek and requested that it is removed as per the discussion on this talk page. I'd remove it myself but I don't speak the language so couldn't be sure I was removing the correct information.--5 albert square (talk) 02:14, 23 January 2011 (UTC)

I answered here. --Pek (talk) 07:41, 23 January 2011 (UTC)

"Eat my shorts" redirects to here. This phrase was used in the Breakfast Club way before the Simpsons. At least give some recognition, this article implies that Bart Simpson created this meme. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8qb9TRqZsM 3:34 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.33.131.117 (talk) 08:29, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

I did state the obvious about Bart Simpson. I apologise for my vandalism. You work fast. Well done. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pseudo-editor7 (talk • contribs) 23:30, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

Bart's middle name - J or JoJo?

In the TV cartoon, Bart's middle name is J. It is even specifically named as J, not an abbreviation for any other name. In the book Bart Simpson's Guide to Life, it is listed as JoJo.

Questions:

1) Is this book considered to be canon? Is there evidence one way or the other that it can be considered canon? The book was not written by Matt Groening or (from what I can tell) any prominent writers from the TV show.

2) Is there any source besides this book which lists Bart's middle name as JoJo?

3) The only writer of this book who is strongly associated with the Simpsons Bill Morrison, who is the co-founder of Bongo Comics. These comics are not considered to be canon. DFS (talk) 01:42, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

In some episodes, Marge refers to Bart by his full name (for example "Bartholomew J. Simpson", Lost Verizon (I am working in memory here, please correct if wrong)). His real middle name is "JoJo". "J." is Homer's middle name, and it stands for "Jay". Lisa's is "Marie".

202.160.16.19 (talk) 08:31, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

"Bartholomew"?

Is this a joke? When has Bart EVER been called "Bartholomew"? 129.180.149.110 (talk) 11:24, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

Dozens of times. Gran² 14:13, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

The family as Autobots

If Lisa becomes Hound, Marge becomes Jetfire and Maggie becomes Bumblebee, what about the males?

202.160.16.78 (talk) 08:50, 4 October 2014 (UTC)

Somebody thinks being American is "not important"

Won't be naming names, but shame on them. Toe of the Almighty Camel (talk) 03:29, 20 April 2015 (UTC)

@Toe of the Almighty Camel: That somebody would be 5 albert square, an admin who told you to use the talk page, rather than edit warring, if you thought it important to mention that Bart is an American character. (I came across that exchange in looking at the topic of prank calls.) I'm not an admin, but I've been editing Wikipedia for a while (my user page says 9 years).

You seem to be new to Wikipedia. The way you commented above is not very useful; frankly, it makes me think of descriptions like "coy" and "gossipy". What would be useful is

1. using the section title for a brief description of the issue, like "Is Bart's nationality relevant?"
2. using the content of the section to state why you think it is relevant
3. and perhaps naming the user you're in dispute with, using a template such as Ping -- like this: {{Ping|5 albert square}} -- which will send them a notification that you've mentioned them in a discussion, so they can participate in it.

As it happens, I agree with you. The Simpsons are very much an American family, in caricature of course. As I recall, when the series was new, much was made of the claim that "Springfield" is the commonest city name in the US, i.e., found in more States than any other. So I support your insertion: Bart is very definitely, and significantly, an American cartoon character. --Thnidu (talk) 06:18, 20 April 2015 (UTC)

Thanks Thnidu. I don't think it's important to mention in the lead that he's American. You can tell that by reading the article.--5 albert square (talk) 21:00, 20 April 2015 (UTC)

I think we need to be specific about who "he" is. I don't think a character seriously can have a nationality. That of his creators are a different thing. America is larger than the US. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:38, 20 April 2015 (UTC)

@Gerda Arendt: I beg your pardon? Are you seriously asserting that Hercule Poirot is not French, Sherlock Holmes not English, "Crocodile" Dundee not Australian, Philip Marlowe not American? That can't be maintained seriously. And take a look at the titles of two of the references:

• BBC (2000). 'The Simpsons': America's First Family (6 minute edit for the season 1 DVD) (DVD). UK: 20th Century Fox.
• Griffiths, Nick (2000-04-15). "America's First Family". The Times Magazine. pp. 25, 27–28.

And, 5 albert square, given that we agree that Bart is American (along with all the other Simpsons), I can't see that mentioning that fact explicitly will damage the article, lengthening the lead section by less than one-quarter of one percent (adding 1 word to 423). Consider also these sentences from the lead sections of two other articles:

• Homer embodies several American working class stereotypes: he is crude, bald, overweight, incompetent, clumsy, lazy, a heavy drinker, and ignorant; however, he is essentially a decent man and fiercely devoted to his family.
• Marjorie Jacqueline "Marge" Simpson (née Bouvier) is a fictional character in the American animated sitcom The Simpsons and part of the eponymous family.

Which segues unintentionally but very nicely into the other point, Gerda: Spanish "americano" relates to the Americas, North and South, but English "American" refers to the United States of America. The USA used it first, and there is no viable alternative. --Thnidu (talk) 07:09, 21 April 2015 (UTC)

I seriously assert that no cartoon character has a nationality. They may show features or characteristics of one, but that's a diferent story.. I am German, may have language problems, but also have a problem with the limited English concept of America as only the United States. A friend has on his talk: "The only real nation is humanity" :) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:16, 21 April 2015 (UTC)

@Gerda Arendt: I don't dispute the existence of the Americas or the greater importance of our shared humanity than our nations, ethnicities, and other groupings, but I vehemently maintain the existence and significance of nations (etc.), all of which have articles in Wikipedia... next to which fact, your friend's talk page is insignificant and irrelevant. And the USA needs and deserves a specific toponymic adjective as much as any other nation, and in English that adjective is "American", as used throughout this English Wikipedia.

And therefore₁, and therefore₂, I am boldly restoring that word to that place in this article.--Thnidu (talk) 07:39, 21 April 2015 (UTC)

I will not edit war, but think that "American character" is highly ambiguous (both "American" and "character" are, the combination even more so) and should therefore not be the first thing a reader is be told who doesn't know from the image who Bart is. For those who know "American" adds nothing. If you have to have "American" you could add it as "Bart ... is a fictional character in the [US] American animated television series The Simpsons". I don't have to have it. It has nothing to do with nations. Did you know how often I have to revert "Nationality = German" for people who lived at a time before a German nation existed? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:08, 21 April 2015 (UTC)

@Thnidu: Yes, I'll seriously assert that Hercule Poirot is not French. You can look that up later. I'll also assert that when Shakespeare referred to "America" (Comedy of Errors III.ii), he wasn't referring to the USA, which didn't come into existence until about 200 years later. So I don't give much credence to your implausible invention that "The USA used it first". Most of us would recognise the use of American as an adjective commonly referring to the USA, but there's no doubt that it is still ambiguous as it is also the correct adjective for the continent of America. Nevertheless, as far as I'm concerned, nationality is a rather intangible concept, so I'm not going to worry too much about using "a fictional American character" as shorthand for "a fictional character who parodies an American (US) stereotype", although I have a lot of sympathy with the suggestion that "... a fictional character in the American animated television series ..." would be a better formulation. --RexxS (talk) 15:25, 21 April 2015 (UTC)

RexxS: Right you are, I forgot. Hercule Poirot is Belgian, which of course doesn't affect the argument. — If you look back up, I was talking about (1) the adjective "American" (2) to refer to a country. I see that I wasn't clear about the second part. I rarely see it used to refer to the continental lands of the Western Hemisphere, aka the Americas. Its predominant use refers to the USA, and the other sense can be confusing, so is most often circumlocuted one way or another. — Gerda Arendt, thank you for the wording suggestion, and RexxS for seconding it; I have applied it.

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Depressed Edits

In the last year or so, there have been these depressed Bart edits on the internet. Although I, personally, think they are kind of unnecessary, I would also think that it could be relevant for a brief mention in the article. What do you think? 2601:8C:4500:1294:29A2:28BA:F09C:D663 (talk) 19:09, 6 July 2019 (UTC)

Name in lead sentence

The most commonly recognized name for the character is Bart Simpson. I propose changing the lead sentence from:

Bartholomew JoJo Simpson is a fictional character in the American animated television series The Simpsons ...

to:

Bart Simpson is a fictional character in the American animated television series The Simpsons ...

Bartholomew isn't mentioned anywhere else in the article besides the infobox. And is it really essential to know that Bart's middle name is JoJo? I tend to agree with the arguments put forward at a 2019 discussion on WT:MOSBIO that there should be no presumption that fictional characters are treated by the standards developed for real people, meaning there's no need to state the character's "legal" name, and full names are often obscure and rarely mentioned trivia, such as minor plot points which are better suited to the body of the article. See also Talk:Cara Dune#Nickname in lead. Thoughts? —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 07:24, 21 February 2021 (UTC)

Sangdeboeuf, perhaps it could mentioned in the body of the article something like "The episode XYZ reveals Bart's full name to be Bartholomew JoJo Simpson". Since there is no strict continuity in the series, the full name might not be valid in later episodes. Consider this the same case with Huey, Dewey, and Louie. In Quack Pack, the latter two's names are Deuteronomy and Louis, but in the new DuckTales they are Dewford and Llewellyn. Kailash29792 (talk) 05:46, 22 February 2021 (UTC)

That's fine by me, I just don't think it belongs in the lead sentence. —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 01:16, 24 February 2021 (UTC)

 Done. Given no objections in over a month, I've changed the name in the lead sentence to Bart Simpson. —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 00:10, 2 April 2021 (UTC)