Talk:Babylonian star catalogues
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Citations needed[edit]
In the section Zodiacal constellations the list could easily be upcited using f.ex. (Origins of the ancient constellations), J. H. Rogers:
- I. The Mesopotamian traditions - Akkadian/Babylonian mostly
- II. The Mediterranean traditions - "Mediterranean", Rogers speculates on the Minoans.
However, the identification (f.ex. MUL.MUL "Star of Stars" to Pleiades) varies somewhat from author to author. The connection between the MUL.APIN tablet constellation to a modern constellation, should be attributed to varying sources. ... said: Rursus (mbork³) 08:34, 12 August 2009 (UTC)
New future content?[edit]
Path of Enlil[edit]
Rogers interpretations on MUL.APINs path of Enlil (northern path) is:
| Path of Enlil | ||
|---|---|---|
| Name (trans- literation) |
Translation | Identification |
| mulAPIN | The Plough, Enlil, who goes at the front of the stars of Enlil. | Tri + γ And |
| UR.BAR.RA | The Wolf, the seeder of the Plough. | α Tri |
| SHU.GI | The Old Man, Enmesharra [shadowy ancestor of Enlil]. | Perseus |
| GAM | The Crook, Gamlum. | Auriga |
| MASH.TAB.BA.GAL.GAL.LA | The Great Twins, Lugalgirra and Meslamtea. | α + β Gem, etc. |
| MASH.TAB.BA.TUR.TUR | The Little Twins, Allamush and dNin-EZENxGUD. | ζ + λ Gem, etc. |
| AL.LUL | The Crab, the seat of Anu.[note 1] | Cancer |
| UR.GU.LA | The Lion, Latarak [lion-headed protector god]. | |
| LUGAL | The star which stands in the breast of the Lion; the King. | Regulus[note 2] |
| -- | The dusky stars which stand in the tail of the Lion: | 5, 21 Leo? [Coma Cluster?][note 3] |
| -- | the Frond (of the date palm) of Eru, Zarpanitu [wife of Marduk]. | Gamma Comae Berenices |
| SHU.PA | SHU.PA, Enlil who decrees the fate of the land. | Boötes |
| Hegalaau | The star which stands in front of it: the Abundant One, the messenger of Ninlil [wife of Enlil]. | β Com ? |
| BAL.TESH.A | The star which stands behind it: the Star of Dignity, the messenger of Tishpak [god of armies]. | Corona Bor. |
| MAR.GID.DA | The Wagon, Ninlil [wife of Enlil]. | Ursa Major |
| KA5.A | the Fox, Erra, the strong one among the gods. | 80-86 UMa [Alkor]? |
| U8 | The star which stands in front of the Wagon: the Ewe, Aya. | NE. Boötes? [η UMa?] |
| MU.BU.KESH.DA | The Hitched Yoke, the great Anu of Heaven. | Thuban? |
| MAR.GID.DA.AN.NA | The Wagon of Heaven, Damkianna. | Ursa Minor |
| IBILA.E.MAH | The star which stands in its rope: the Heir of the Sublime Temple, | Polaris? |
| -- | the first-ranking son of Anu. | |
| DINGIR.GUB.BAS | The standing Gods of Ekur, | ζ + η Her?; |
| DINGIR.TUSH.AS | the sitting Gods of Ekur, | ε, π, ρ, θ, Her?; |
| UZ | The She-goat, Gula. | Lyra |
| UR.KU | The star which stands in front of the She-goat: the Dog. | S. Hercules |
| dLAMMA | The bright star of the She-goat: Lamma, the messenger of Baba. | Vega |
| dNin-SAR u dErragal | The two stars which stand behind it: Nin-SAR and Erragal. | ζ + ε Lyr |
| UD.KA.DUH.A | The Panther: Nergal. | Cyg, Lac, part of Cep. |
| SHAH | The star which stands at its right side: the Pig, Damu [god of healing]. | Head of Draco? [Del?] |
| ANSHE.KUR.RA | The star which stands at its left side: the Horse. | α, β, γ, δ Cas [Peg/Lac/Eql?] |
| lu-lim | The star which stands behind it: the Stag, the messenger of the Stars. | E. And. [+ Cas?] |
| -- | The dusky stars which stands in the breast of the Stag: | |
| KA.MUSH.I.KU.E | the Deleter. | β And [α Cas?] |
| -- | When the stars of Enlil have finished, | |
| -- | one big star -- (although) its light is dim -- divides the sky | |
| -- | in half and stands there: the star of Marduk, the Ford, | Jupiter (on the |
| mulSAG.ME.GAR | Jupiter, keeps changing its position and crosses the sky. | meridian at dawn) |
- Notes
- ^ the seat of Anu = the Point of Summer solstice
- ^ α Leo
- ^ Rogers of course refers to the "Coma star cluster", Melotte 111, the Coma cluster of galaxies is not observable without a telescope, or perhaps strong binoculars
Which doesn't coincide very well with the current text description. Consider the above text the future replacement of the article text. ... said: Rursus (mbork³) 16:32, 16 August 2009 (UTC) Ready! ... said: Rursus (mbork³) 17:54, 16 August 2009 (UTC)
- I was wrong, I found the direct citation of the article list. However the one above might be perused in MUL.APIN instead (with some kind of rewriting so that many path of Enlil interpretations are mentioned — J.H.Rogers is not the sole interpretation of the meanings, as much as I know, there are about 2-3 more interpretation sets out there). ... said: Rursus (mbork³) 18:56, 16 August 2009 (UTC)
- The list development is now continued on Talk:Mul.Apin. This is an overview article. MUL.APINs contents is better for the article of that name. ... said: Rursus (mbork³) 08:22, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
- I was wrong, I found the direct citation of the article list. However the one above might be perused in MUL.APIN instead (with some kind of rewriting so that many path of Enlil interpretations are mentioned — J.H.Rogers is not the sole interpretation of the meanings, as much as I know, there are about 2-3 more interpretation sets out there). ... said: Rursus (mbork³) 18:56, 16 August 2009 (UTC)
Link dump[edit]
I remade the zodiacal list to fit Gary D. Thompson's source. He seems to be a properly reliable researcher (whether professional or amateur) preparing by immense bibliographies. That much before an alleged Dr (?) Shepherd Simpson, Galactic Astrologer (!!!!). I suspect there are very few Dr:s in Astrology, and in Galactic Astrology (never ever heard of the concept anywhere else) none! ... said: Rursus (mbork³) 15:06, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
Sumer isa source?[edit]
The intro alleges that the original constellations were Sumerian. Three stars each instead gives the sources Akkad, Amurru, Elam and no-source. Maybe some of those from no-source came from Sumerian sources, but such a stmt needs refs. Rursus dixit. (mbork3!) 10:52, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
- I think that the editors have confused Sumerian with the fact that Mesopotamia for it's entire history used a cuneiform script deriving from Sumerian cuneiform and also having a Sumerian pronunciation. At most 4 constellations may actually have a Sumerian origin, i.e. Aquarius/Capricornus (representing Enki), Leo and Taurus. Although that is very speculative. Rursus dixit. (mbork3!) 11:00, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
- And maybe Elam is the original source of the first constellations, see Rogers 98 page 11. Rursus dixit. (mbork3!) 16:09, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
Temporary intro save[edit]
Intro going to be rewritten, to accomodate for unknown sources for star catalogues. First three para:s saved here:
Old Babylonian astronomy inherited systems of star catalogues from Sumerian sources[citation needed]. The Babylonians grouped the stars in companies of seven. References are made to the seven Tikši, the seven Lumaši, and the seven Maši. The Enūma Eliš (V.2) mentions the Lumaši, translated by L.W. King (1902) as "the stars of the Zodiac":
- (V.1) u-ba-aš-šim man-za-za an ilāni rabūti (V.2) kakkabāni tam-šil-šu-nu lu-ma-ši uš-zi-iz
- "He (Marduk) made the stations for the great gods; The stars, their images, as the stars of the Zodiac, he fixed."[1]
In particular, a list of stars along the path of the Moon (the ecliptic) is the predecessor of the system of the classical zodiac of twelve signs developed in Neo-Babylonian astronomy around the 7th to 6th century BC and inherited by Hellenistic astrology.[2]
By. Rursus dixit. (mbork3!) 20:15, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
Font?[edit]
There should be a notice about the type of script on the page and what fonts to use. ~janus zeal (talk) 05:29, 19 April 2011 (UTC)
"Age of this-and-that"[edit]
This edit tried to "explain" the movement of the vernal equinox point along the ecliptic by referring to Age of Taurus. That's not a good explanation since the astrologers concepts of Age of Taurus/Aries/Pisces etc., is under heavy discord among the astrologers themselves. Astronomers dismiss these "Ages" since there is no fixed point on the ecliptic where one can consider the movement of the vernal equinox to begin: there is no starting point. Besides Astrology is perfectly untrue in every aspect, and have no connection to reality. WP:NPOV and editor dynamics makes this very fuzzy and obscure on Wikipedia, but all psychology investigations that hold for skeptical scrutiny, indicate that there is no connection between personality and/or fate with the planets whatsoever. Rursus dixit. (mbork3!) 09:40, 31 December 2011 (UTC)
A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion[edit]
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You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 15:39, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
"The Farm Worker" association with "The Ram"[edit]
Regarding this sentence: "It is unclear how the "Farm Worker" of the MUL.APIN became Aries "The Ram" of Greek tradition, possibly by a pun or misunderstanding."
It seems like the Farm Worker should be Dumuzid, The Shepherd: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dumuzid who was consort to Anunitu(Sumeran: Inanna) from the previous constellation (see "As the planet Venus" section in: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inanna )
This conneection was also mentioned in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aries_(constellation) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 139.71.136.8 (talk) 18:52, 19 November 2021 (UTC)