Talk:Ayu Tsukimiya

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Former good articleAyu Tsukimiya was one of the Video games good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
Article milestones
DateProcessResult
June 28, 2008Good article nomineeListed
June 6, 2017Good article reassessmentDelisted
Current status: Delisted good article

Only character article?[edit]

So why is this the only character article for Kanon? I think we either need to create articles for the other main characters or merge this back into List of Kanon characters.--SeizureDog 02:41, 4 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Ayu is more visible and more well-known outside of Kanon than most other characters, which I think kinda justifies her article's notability. --Rubbrchikin 21:20, 6 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Uguu in Nodame Cantabile[edit]

At half of episode 06, Nodame says ”Uguu”. Maybe a reference? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.112.77.26 (talk) 18:28, 18 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think it should be more obvious. Did anything else happen, or was it just that?--十八 21:28, 18 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

GA Review[edit]

This review is transcluded from Talk:Ayu Tsukimiya/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Hello. I'll be doing the GA review for this article. Here's some suggestions for improvement:

  • All the paragraphs in the lead begin with "Ayu". Can it be mixed up a bit?checkY
  • Image:Ayu Tsukimiya Key.jpg is not low resolution, but is marked as such.checkY (resized to 230px width)
  • "In the anime adaptation of Air, another of Key's visual novels, Ayu makes a cameo appearance in episode two along with Nayuki Minase and Makoto Sawatari as regular girls who talk to Yukito Kunisaki about where Kano Kirishima is." - sentences are not supposed to end with prepositions, so this needs to be reworded somehowcheckY
  • Can more be said about the character's reception by fans and critics? It is needed as part of the breadth requirement for GAs.

The article will be on hold for seven days to allow for improvements. Nikki311 02:04, 24 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The first three are done. As for the fourth point, I have attempted to look for reliable reviews of the character, but have found very little. Oh, wait a second, I just remembered that I may be able to get something from a Newtype USA issue I have which had a piece on Kanon. But other than that, I'm pretty much at a loss.--十八 04:01, 24 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Let me know if you find anything in the magazine. There aren't critics for this type of thing? Nikki311 21:53, 26 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Critics? For video game (nay, visual novel) characters? Not that I know of.--十八 22:08, 26 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, the Newtype USA reference has been added, even though it's not much.--十八 22:39, 27 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Not much is always better than nothing at all. I'll pass the article. Nikki311 01:06, 28 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Excellent![edit]

I really enjoyed this article, it has enough information that I was searching. However, I also hope that the article write about Misuzu Kamio and Nagisa Furukawa. Does the writer can do? Thanks if you do --113.163.197.151 (talk) 02:08, 8 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I am also consulting with the IP. There should be articles for Misuzu and Nagisa --minhhuy*= (talk) 02:12, 8 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Ayu appears to be the most notable heroine from Key, though if it can be shown that Misuzu and/or Nagisa have enough real-world influence, then articles of them could be created. The main thing keeping from their creation would be their cultural impact, but also information on their creation and conception which would have to be found.--十八 02:33, 8 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I think the interviews in artbook and fanbook will be helpful in this case. Can use it? --minhhuy*= (talk) 04:49, 8 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Not notable, suggest merge to List of Kanon characters[edit]

I am sorry, but this article is unlikely to be notable, and should be merged to List of Kanon characters. Here is a brief list of problems:

  • 'Creation and conception' section is based on WP:PRIMARY sources: Kanon Visual Fan Book and official website
  • 'Characteristics' - same, in addition it is mostly unreferenced
  • 'Appearances' -primary, mostly unreferenced. A major claim to fame, ' "has had more appearances outside of the original Kanon than any other anime or H-game character ever."' is referenced to a Hentai.co.uk website, of dubious reliability, and certainly very niche.
  • 'Musical theme' - primary/not about the character but about the song and mostly off topic here anyway
  • 'Cultural impact' - much of this is original research or primary. Only the last paragraph, with references to reliable sources such as ANN and N-USA has value, but they are references for the series, there is no indiation they ever had an article about this character.
  • 'Merchandise - primary, OR, spam.

I am also going to delist it as GAR due to numerous problem. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 13:02, 8 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

  • Strong Oppose - Two discussions should not be taking place at once here. If the article does fail the GA reassessment then go from there, otherwise you risk a potential discussion mess. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 17:20, 8 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - I have not read the article, so I'm not going to comment on it yet, but it makes more sense to me to do the merge discussion first. If it's decided that it should be merged, then we can skip the GAR entirely.--IDVtalk 17:29, 8 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose creation is allowed to be based on primary sources as that has insights as to how the character was created. AngusWOOF (bark • sniff) 18:19, 8 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    • @AngusWOOF: Could you take a look a Wikipedia:Notability (fictional characters)Wikipedia:Notability (fiction) and cite which part of it does not contradict your argument? We need non-primary sources to estabilish notability. (Also, quoting from WP:PRIMARY: 'Secondary or tertiary sources are needed to establish the topic's notability'). --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 17:36, 9 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
      • The other sections should be used to check for notability. I disagree that a Creation/Conception section is a problem for drawing from primary material: the author, character designer, director, voice actor interviews, whatever as presented by the distributing media company. That's like tagging the Plot section for relying on the plot itself as the primary source. AngusWOOF (bark • sniff) 17:44, 9 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Nothing wrong with both discussions happening at once, besides inefficiency. (Obviously the merge would take precedence over the GAR.) I am in favor of merging this to the parent list article unless someone can show reliable, secondary sources that note this character as independently notable not just from the series but from its cast of characters as well. (If it isn't separately covered, it should be covered in the parent article and only split summary style when warranted by sources.) I am no longer watching this page—ping if you'd like a response czar 18:35, 8 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • It is okay to use primary sources to fill out the gaps between secondary sources' coverage, but we still need secondary, reliable sources to establish independent notability in the first place. If those do not exist, this should be merged with the character list.--IDVtalk 17:56, 9 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

GA Reassessment[edit]

This discussion is transcluded from Talk:Ayu Tsukimiya/GA2. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the reassessment.

As I explained above (Talk:Ayu_Tsukimiya#Not_notable.2C_suggest_merge_to_List_of_Kanon_characters) this article has major issues, namely failing WP:OR and WP:GNG. In other words, it fails the following Wikipedia:Good article criteria: 2b, 2c. Notability also means it should't even be an article in the first place (see suggested merge to Kanon list of characters). --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 13:07, 8 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Oddly, notability is not a GA criterion. WP:OR, however, is an issue that must be dealt with. Of course, if the article is merged before this GAR is completed, the GAR ends immediately since the article no longer exists... BlueMoonset (talk) 03:06, 9 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I don't see much of a consensus for a merge thus far but will wait for other editors to weigh in. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 16:10, 9 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I see your point but we only have two small paragraphs of critical reception about the character. The rest are parodies about her. There is a user in the Wikiproject for manga and anime who always collects reviews and brings them to the talk page so I think we could ask for help before the article is merged.Tintor2 (talk) 22:17, 9 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Question - Have Japanese sources been sought for? Given the popularity of Kanon (particularly the original VN) there could be coverage about Tsukimiya out there in Japanese. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 15:06, 10 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, forgot about liking the user User:Allen4names. Sorry if this bothers you.Tintor2 (talk) 15:15, 10 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

For what it is worth I added some references to {{Refideas}} at Talk:Kanon (visual novel). – Allen4names (contributions) 06:18, 11 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. Added two to this article.Tintor2 (talk) 00:15, 12 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Update Managed to find more reviews that mention Ayu and added them to the article.Tintor2 (talk) 00:37, 12 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

  • Thank you. Whatever happens, this section will certainly survive, even if merged. I'll however point out that we still haven't found a single source about the character, only mentions of her in reviews of the anime. As the anime is relatively popular, it is of course given she will be mentioned in passing in a number of sources. But passing mentions, and those seem to be all we have so far, are problematic when it comes to proving she deserves a stand-alone article. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 15:31, 12 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@Piotrus: If you mean like awards, then I think I couldn't find anything about the character.Tintor2 (talk) 20:11, 13 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@Tintor2: I meant - can we find any article about that character? Not about the anime Kanon in genera in which she is mentioned in passing (and it is hard to write about Kanon without mentioning Ayu...)? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 23:54, 13 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
If you need a reference, try Ellie (The Last of Us). While some of the references are just taken from interviews and game reviews, a lot of the references talk directly about the character, such as this, this, this, this, and this. I'm not sure if you'll find have any luck finding individual articles about Ayu, but at least you know what to aim for. Famous Hobo (talk) 02:41, 14 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@Famous Hobo: I am a bit confused. Those articles don't seem to mention Ayu at all, and therefore seem off topic here? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 10:16, 27 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
You're right, those articles have nothing to do with Ayu. But, what I'm trying to show is that for finding references for character articles on wikipedia, try and find references that primarily focus on the character in question. For example, Ellie (The Last of Us) is a very notable character, to the point where gaming websites have written multipage analysis articles on her. The current Wikipedia article for Ellie does a great job of finding articles specifically about Ellie. What I'm trying to suggest is for Ayu, try to find articles that soley talk about her, whether that be from a development or reception standpoint. Don't just use small portions of articles or interviews that don't focus on her to comprise the references. Hopefully that made sense. Famous Hobo (talk) 19:29, 27 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry but, I think I cant add more since I am on a wikibreak. I am not sure if there is an article with a bigger focus on her. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tintor2 (talk • contribs) 18:54, 20 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

  • I agree that the sourcing doesn't establish the character as independently notable from the series and that its contents should be merged into the parent series article. Previously discussed on article talk page and in other merge/deletion discussions related to Key's visual novels (all of which once had excessive, separate character articles). czar 21:05, 18 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Piotrus: It's been over 3 months since this reassessment was opened and it's probably due some closure. Are you aware that this is an individual reassessment? The closing decision should be left to the editor initiating this reassessment, which is you. This discussion reads more like a merge proposal so GAR probably isn't the right avenue. --The1337gamer (talk) 19:52, 11 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

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