Talk:Ava–Hanthawaddy War (1385–1391)/GA1

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Reviewer: Peacemaker67 (talk · contribs) 02:57, 21 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]


I’ll start with a list of prose comments, then drop in a table for the criteria. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 04:43, 21 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Lead
  • suggest "was a military conflict between the Burmese kingdoms of Ava and Hanthawaddy Pegu" as there is assumed knowledge here about what they were.
  • Done
  • suggest "formidable Hanthawaddy fortifications"
  • Done
  • suggest "The two failed campaigns ushered a new entrant into the fray."
  • Done

More to come. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 01:51, 22 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Comment I believe the article also needs a lot more in-line citations in the lead even if sourced elsewhere per MOS:LEADCITE EmeraldRange (talk/contribs) 17:19, 26 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The lead should be a summary of the cited material in the body, and only needs citations for matters that are likely to be challenged (even then it isn’t mandatory). But there cannot be material in the lead that isn’t supported by cited material in the body. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 19:28, 26 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]


Background
  • "The backstory of the war goes back" could you use a different wording to avoid backstory and back in the same sentence? Origins?
  • Done
  • once you have introduced U, just use U.
  • Done
  • explain what Lan Na was. Northern Thai kingdom?
  • Done

More to come. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 02:15, 22 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Prelude
  • there is a bit of sandwiching in this section. I strongly suggest moving the Bago image to the right and centring the quotation between the two paras of the Laukpya's request section. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 05:19, 22 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Done

Just an update, I’m in hospital at present, so there will be a few days delay before I’m able to finalise this. You can go ahead and start addressing the prose comments if you like. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 03:39, 25 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Peacemaker67, hope you're doing better. Updated the above; will update the ones below soon. Stay tuned. Hybernator (talk) 01:43, 28 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
First invasion
  • in the Grinding advance subsection, mention what if anything Laukpya was doing at this point. It sort of begs the question.
  • Good observation. Apparently, Laukpya's forces didn't anything of significance at all. The flotilla sailed out to Dagon when Ava forces converged towards there. That's the extent of what they did in the chronicles. Anyway, I added a sentence at the end of the subsection.
Second invasion
  • suggest "where supplies had been shipped to."> "to which supplies had been shipped."
  • I'm smiling as this reminds me of the preposition quote attributed to Churchill. Anyway, I've broken up the sentence into two. Please review.
  • throughout, the MOS expects a comma after thousands, ie 6,000 not 6000.
  • Done.

Down to Second interlude. More to come. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 09:11, 26 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry about the break in transmission, will get this completed over the weekend. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 01:08, 17 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Second interlude
  • first para is uncited.
  • Done.
  • the use of "would" in terms of "he would not be able to do so for the next three years" is a conditional sentence. "Would" suggests an outcome that is either unlikely or should have happened. But this is an encyclopaedia article and we know what happened, so the language should be definite. Such as "he was not able to do so for the next three years". In general throughout the article, the use of "would" in a conditional way isn't really appropriate. I recommend searching for all examples of "would" in the article, and considering whether a definite rather than conditional rendering would be clearer. For example, in the same sentence, "He would be preoccupied by a renewed conflict"→"He was preoccupied by a renewed conflict"
  • Done.
  • "request help tofrom Swa"
  • Good catch. Done.
  • "King Swa" per MOS:SURNAME
  • Done. (Btw, Swa was his regnal name, not a surname.)
  • I don't understand "As with its recent southern campaigns". Do you mean "like the recent southern campaigns, this one was also inconclusive"? Or something like that?
  • Your recommendation works. Changed.
  • As above "The conflict remained unresolved for another two years."
  • Done.
  • Gov.→Governor (presumably)
  • Yes, spelled out now. Done.
  • "His father could never retake"→"His father had not been able to retake"
  • Done.
  • "managed to drive the Byattaban troops from the battlefield"
  • Changed to ... "Byattaba and his senior commanders". (The troops surrendered.)
  • suggest "The campaign concluded in late 1388 (or early 1389)."
  • Done.

Down to Pegu's conquest... More to come. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 00:56, 19 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]


Pegu's conquest...
  • were Lauk Shein, Bya Kun and Bya Kyin all Laukpya's sons?
  • Lauk Shein and Bya Kun were Laukpya's sons. Bya Kyin was his son in law. So, yes, they were his sons.
  • Gov.→Governor (presumably)
  • Done.
  • what is meant by "the pocket"?
  • Changed to "main corridor".
  • "whichand the king reluctantly obliged"
  • Made it into a separate sentence.

Down to Third invasion, more to come. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 02:22, 19 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Third invasion
  • "It so happened that Ava and Maw"
  • Changed it to "Moreover,"
  • the king of Hanthawaddy→he
  • Done.
  • The offer was borne
  • Good catch. Changed it to "a result of".
  • "a letter to Razadarit and the Pegu court urging them to sue for peace with Ava from a position of strength"
  • Done.
Aftermath
  • "Peace would holdheld for another decade. Pegu would developed" also, merge the second para with this. Single sentence paras are frowned upon.
  • Done.
  • Gov.→Governor
  • Done.
  • "to find their common enemy Maw/Mong Mao" What do you mean "to find their common enemy"?
  • Typo. Meant fight. Changed it to "contain their common enemy".
  • the Ming court is only introduced here for the first time. Link and state that it was the Chinese court.
  • Done.
  • "By 1400, Hanthawaddy was in full flight" what do you mean here?
  • Updated the sentence with more info from (Aung-Thwin 2017: 254–255).
Historiography
  • The lead-in para is uncited. You might say it is WP:BLUE, but the perspectives is an analysis and we cannot have that in Wikivoice.
  • Ok. Added a couple of notes, and updated the second sentence to include only the Maha Yazawin based on the available citations.

OK, you'll be pleased to know that is it for the prose. I'll take a look at the rest of the criteria shortly. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 09:46, 20 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • Updated it to "four decades-long wars between the two kingdoms".
  • Linked Razadarit
Hybernator (talk) 03:51, 26 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Rate Attribute Review Comment
1. Well-written:
1a. the prose is clear, concise, and understandable to an appropriately broad audience; spelling and grammar are correct.

See comments above.

All addressed. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 05:10, 23 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
1b. it complies with the Manual of Style guidelines for lead sections, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list incorporation.

I will assess this once the body prose as been improved.

  • "decades-long Forty Years' War between the two kingdoms that would last well into the 1420s" seems to be saying the same thing several times "decades, "forty" then "1420s" why not just say how long it ran from and to?
  • link Razadarit

Otherwise this is fine. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:27, 25 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • Updated it to "four decades-long wars between the two kingdoms".
  • Linked Razadarit. Hybernator (talk) 03:54, 26 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
OK, GTG here now. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 04:12, 26 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
2. Verifiable with no original research:
2a. it contains a list of all references (sources of information), presented in accordance with the layout style guideline.

There is one uncited para.

Fixed. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 05:10, 23 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
2b. reliable sources are cited inline. All content that could reasonably be challenged, except for plot summaries and that which summarizes cited content elsewhere in the article, must be cited no later than the end of the paragraph (or line if the content is not in prose).
2c. it contains no original research.
2d. it contains no copyright violations or plagiarism.
3. Broad in its coverage:
3a. it addresses the main aspects of the topic.
3b. it stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style).
4. Neutral: it represents viewpoints fairly and without editorial bias, giving due weight to each.
5. Stable: it does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute.
6. Illustrated, if possible, by media such as images, video, or audio:
6a. media are tagged with their copyright statuses, and valid non-free use rationales are provided for non-free content.

File:Burma c. 1350.png needs information on the file page explaining where you obtained the information about the extent of the polities (usually an original map).checkY File:Mintara Nat.jpg needs a US tag on the file page.checkY File:Saya Chone's "Royal Audience".png needs information on the file page explaining when this was first published, see the US tag for details.checkY File:An account of an embassy to the kingdom of Ava 00493-s.gif needs some additions to the PD-Art tag to explain why the underlying art is in the public domain. See the information in red.checkY File:Bassein, late 1800s.jpg needs a US tag on the file page.checkY File:AVA KINGDOM.jpg needs information on the file page explaining where the information about the extent of the polities was obtained (usually an original map). Now removed.checkY

6b. media are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions.

Captions that are not complete sentences do not have a terminating period, see MOS:CAPTION.

This is fine now. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:09, 25 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
7. Overall assessment.

On hold for comments to be addressed. Nice work thus far, I expect this to pass once that is done. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 22:30, 21 November 2023 (UTC) All comments addressed satisfactorily. This easily meets the GA criteria. If you are interested in this article ultimately being promoted to FA, I suggest you nominate this article for a Milhist A-Class review at WP:MHR. Well done, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 04:35, 3 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • Peacemaker67, hope all is well. Thanks for the thorough review.
  • 1a and 1b: I've made the prose changes.
  • 2a: Added citations.
  • 6b: Removed the period from the caption for "A view of present-day Bago (Pegu)". I think that's the only one.
  • 6a:
  • 6a1: File:Burma c. 1350.png: It is based on (Lieberman 2003: 26): Figure 1.4: Mainland Southeast Asia c. 1340. I've updated the description on the file itself.
What you need to do is add this to the description under source (ie something like "Own work, with the extent of the main polities drawn from Lieberman, Victor B. (2003). Strange Parallels: Southeast Asia in Global Context, c. 800–1830, volume 1, Integration on the Mainland. Cambridge University Press. ISBN 978-0-521-80496-7, p. 26", with the full citation to the source. The image file page must stand alone, not be reliant on other information in an article it is used in. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 06:49, 25 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ok. Updated the file description to "Own work based on Figure 1.4 "Mainland Southeast Asia, c. 1340" in (Lieberman, Victor B. (2003). Strange Parallels: Southeast Asia in Global Context, c. 800–1830, Volume 1, Integration on the Mainland. Cambridge University Press. ISBN 978-0-521-80496-7, p. 26)" Hybernator (talk) 04:03, 26 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • 6a2: File:Mintara Nat.jpg: Added "PD-US-Expired"
Same, provide the full citation to the source which published the image. But is Temple the author of the original work? The PD-70 tag requires knowledge of the year of death of the author of the work, but you are relying, as far as I can tell, on the date of publication? Wouldn't a period since publication be better? The link to the SEA Digital Library is broken too. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:07, 25 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Added R.C. Temple's source book in a citation format. Also updated the SEA Library link.
I don't know where Temple got this or any the drawings in his book from. So, 1906 is all we have to go by. As for when he died, the Wiki article on Richard Carnac Temple says he died in 1931. Let me know we need more info. Hybernator (talk) 04:39, 26 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • 6a3: File:Saya Chone's "Royal Audience".png: Added 1907, using the date of the book that contains the painting.
This one is fine now. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:07, 25 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • 6a4: File:An account of an embassy to the kingdom of Ava 00493-s.gif: Updated with {{PD-old}} and {{PD-US-expired}}
The first tag on this one relies on a year of death of the author, but doesn't have one. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:07, 25 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Added the birth and death years of the author Symes in the description. Also added a Google Books URL to the publication. Hybernator (talk) 04:54, 26 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
OK, so this one is a bit tricky. The original author of the depicted artwork is a Singey Bey, and from the drawing an engraving was made by Thomas Medland. We know Medland died in 1833 (you should add that and link his article), but Singey Bey is a bit harder. See this. I suggest you add a statement along these lines in the author field of the summary template after Singey Bey's name "Given the engraving was made prior to 1799, the year the book was published, it can be assumed that Singey Bey, about whom little is known (add the link to Lost Footsteps), died before 1850, and therefore any copyright would have expired by 1921." or words to that effect. That should be pretty bulletproof. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 05:47, 29 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Done. As the publication was published in London, it would have been under the prevailing UK copyright law, meaning the copyright would have expired 14 or 28 years later. Hybernator (talk) 01:32, 3 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • 6a5: File:Bassein, late 1800s.jpg: Added "PD-US-Expired"
More detail needed on the source (full citation with page), and again, relies on a year of death which isn't provided. Again, period since publication is probably better. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:07, 25 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Hybernator (talk) 05:07, 26 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
OK, this one is a bit different. The publisher appears to be source of the sketch (it is opposite p.128). The publisher was Charles Kegan Paul who died in 1892, so add that. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:14, 29 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • 6a6: File:AVA KINGDOM.jpg: Removed this file, and replaced it the Lower Burma map used throughout the article.
This is fine now. The town positions aren't in question, and it includes no interpretation. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:07, 25 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

:* Re: the files, I've updated one file I created. I'll take a look at the rest.Hybernator (talk) 03:26, 23 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

G'day Hybernator, still a few things to sort out with the image licensing. More information on sources in most cases, but also, in several cases you haven't provided death year for the author of the work, but the PD-old tag needs that. I recommend using a tag that relates to the time since publication, but perhaps Nikkimaria would be willing to chime in given her expertise? Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:07, 25 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
IMO the images currently problematic from a licensing perspective are File:Mintara_Nat.jpg, File:Bassein,_late_1800s.jpg, and File:Bago-Rundblick_von_Mahazedi_Paya_(4).JPG. The first two have tags that lack evidence - author death dates/publication dates. On the last, as Myanmar does not have freedom of panorama, it needs a tag for the work pictured. Nikkimaria (talk) 14:22, 25 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Peacemaker67, Nikkimaria, I've updated the descriptions of the problematic files except for File:Bago-Rundblick_von_Mahazedi_Paya. Please review the updated ones. As for the last one, what tag does it require? I don't even know what freedom of panorama means. Does it mean no pictures of present-day and recent-past Myanmar can ever be published? What tag(s) if any can be applied to be published? Please advise. Hybernator (talk) 05:25, 26 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Freedom of panorama means you can take a photograph of a building or sculpture and worry only about the copyright of the photo. Without that, we need some kind of tag that reflects the status of the work pictured as well as the photo. Best way to figure out what tag to apply is to determine the date of that work.
  • Also File:Mintara_Nat.jpg still needs an author date of death. Nikkimaria (talk) 05:30, 26 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Thanks, Nikkimaria.
    • Re: File:Mintara_Nat.jpg, added R.C. Temple's date of death (1931).
Yes, but isn't the author of the artwork actually the lithographer, William Griggs (inventor) who died in 1911? The publication date of the artwork is 1906. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 06:29, 26 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    • File:Bago-Rundblick_von_Mahazedi_Paya_(4).JPG, it was taken by Christopher Voitus on 31 October 2003, and uploaded by him on 23 December 2006. Thanks. Hybernator (talk) 06:04, 26 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I think what Nikkimaria means is year the pagoda or whatever it is in the foreground was built? Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 06:25, 26 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • According to the file name, it was the Mahazedi Pagoda. According to its Wiki article, it was first built in 1560, completely leveled in 1930, and rebuilt in the 1950s. Hybernator (talk) 07:06, 26 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Peacemaker67, thanks for pointing this out. I thought W. Griggs was the publisher. I can't find in the book itself that he drew the drawings but his obit says he did the illustrative work on (Temple 1906). Anyway, I've updated the file to include Griggs as the author of the illustration. Hybernator (talk) 00:36, 29 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Peacemaker67, thanks for the help with the files. I've updated the files with the info as you asked. Also removed File:Bago-Rundblick_von_Mahazedi_Paya_(4).JPG. Let me know if there's anything else. Thanks. Hybernator (talk) 01:53, 3 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
No problems at all, it can be a bit daunting, but good illustrations are critical to quality articles. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 04:35, 3 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you and best regards! Hybernator (talk) 04:57, 3 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
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