Talk:Australian Defence Force ranks

Nitpick in Chaplain subsection.

I noticed the following in the Chaplain section of the "Notes" :...The heads of the various churches and religions officially associated to the ADF's Religious Advisory Committee, such as the Anglican and Catholic Bishops of the Military, hold a two star (O-8 Rear Admiral/Major General/Air Vice Marshal) status. ...

(My bolding).

Is this correct for a article about Australian ranks? "Two star" would refer to a Major General in US service, but is it a universal concept? Not quite sure enough to "be bold". :-) Johnmc (talk) 12:31, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Well, I don't believe it applies to the whole universe, but it certainly applies to NATO, Australia, and much of Asia ... Cheers, Pdfpdf (talk) 12:38, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Rank Comparison Seaman/Aircraftsman/Private.

After initial trade training in all three ADF Services a new Seaman/Aircraftsman/Private must satisfy the same criteria to be re-classified to the next level (Able Seaman/Leading Aircraftsman/Private [Proficient]) namely:

• Airforce (Defence Instruction (Airforce) Personnel 5-4, Para 5.4)
  • a. 12 months productive service has been completed after completion of the initial trade training or after completion of recruit training where already trade qualified;
  • b. the LAC/LACW trade test and/or prerequisite courses of the particular mustering have been passed (if required in accordance with the particular occupational specification); and
  • c. they are considered suitable in all respects for advancement to the higher classification by their Commanding Officer (CO).

• Army (PACMAN Vol 2, Chap 3, Part 2, Division 3, Para 3.2.30(1.).) - http://www.defence.gov.au/DPE/PAC/V2_Ch3_Pt2_Div3.htm
• 1. This clause applies to an Army member with the rank of Private. The member is paid as Private Proficient if they meet all of the following conditions.
  • a. They have completed initial training for their employment category.
  • b. They have completed at least 12 months’ service after finishing training.
  • c. They are proficient in their military trade or skill.

• Navy (ABR 10 Chapter 5 Para 5.11)
  • In addition to any category specific qualifications, the basic requirement for promotion to AB is 12 months effective service as a SMN (qualified). The principle of effective service is to provide sailors with the time to consolidate the skills and knowledge obtained on initial category course through on-the-job training, in addition to furthering their general naval knowledge…

Gl359 (talk • contribs) 06:36, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

Re Army: PACMAN Vol 2, Chap 3, Part 2, Division 3, Para 3.2.30(1.) - http://www.defence.gov.au/DPE/PAC/V2_Ch3_Pt2_Div3.htm Pdfpdf (talk) 12:45, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

Rank Comparison Warrant Officer 2 / Flight Sergeant /Chief Petty Officer

The chart shows WO2, CPO and FSGT to be E8 equivalents. However the WO2 is classified as a Warrant Officer whereas CPO and FSGT are NCOs. Does this mean that the WO2 is senior to the CPO and FSGT? --92.16.220.242 (talk) 12:10, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

I don't believe so. As you say, they are all E8 equivalents.

I'll have a look in PACMAN. (Or you could have a look in PACMAN!) - http://www.defence.gov.au/DPE/PAC/V2_Ch1_Pt4.htm

"3. This table shows the equivalent ranks. (This subclause is policy guidance)"

Item	Navy	Army	Air Force
13.	Warrant Officer	Warrant Officer, Class 1	Warrant Officer
14.	Chief Petty Officer	Warrant Officer, Class 2	Flight Sergeant
15.	‑	Staff Sergeant	‑
16.	Petty Officer	Sergeant	Sergeant

Nup. PACMAN says they're the same. Cheers, Pdfpdf (talk) 13:02, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

Staff Sergeant and Flight Sergeant used to be equivalent ranks in the Australian Armed Forces as they still are in the British and New Zealand Armed Forces - the rank insignias are still identical even though the ranks no longer correspond. --92.16.220.242 (talk) 15:32, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

I think I read somewhere that Staff Sergeant no longer existed. I'll see if I can track it down and see what it actually does say. --Pdfpdf (talk) 16:12, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

I have removed the reference to the SSGT rank being discontinued in 2006 I believe it was a little earlier than that but don't have a reference to hand at the moment (online search of Army News didn't help either. The rank has technically not ceased, merely there are no further promotions to it. Existing SSGTs continue unaffected. Whilst it is uncommon to see SSGTs in the Regular forces, it is not uncommon to see them in the Reserve Forces.

The distinction with respect to CPO/WO2/FSGT is that CPO and FSGT are Senior Non-Commissioned Officers whereas WO2 are emphatically not, they are Warrant Officers. Notwithstanding, these days they are paid the same (provided they are in the same pay group) and are expected to fulfill the same range of Joint positions. Typically WO2 also have a stronger background in regimental discipline (even those in the trade streams) due to the different service cultures, however that is POV and will probably be seen as contentious by RAN/RAAF and there are unlikely to be reliable secondary sources.

With respect to Brigadiers as Generals, technically the answer is no they are not; they, along with Colonels (but not Lieutenant Colonels) are Senior Officers having said that, they are treated no differently to Commodores and Air Commodores, are equally part of the Senior Leadership Group, are semi-formally referred to as 1-star officers and, whilst technically incorrect, are often as not referred to within the services as being of general rank in the same way as Commodores are referred to as being flag rank and Air Commodores as air rank. Cheers, AusTerrapin (talk) 10:10, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

General / Flag officers

In regards to the most senior section for officers; it is titled "General/Flag officers" Should it not be titled: General/Flag officers/Air Officers? I believe that whilst not common Air Commodore and above can be referred to as such see pages 69, 133, 137 and 171 of The Quiet Man by Sir Neville McNamara http://airpower.airforce.gov.au/Publications/Details/224/The-Quiet-Man.aspx

ta, nick — Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.171.193.79 (talk) 12:54, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

Brigadier

As per [Defence Force Badges of Rank and Special Insignia], the rank of Brigadier is Equivalent to a Commodore and Air Commodore and therefore should be placed in the correct spot. Brigadier in the Australian Army is a 1 Star rank. Regards Nford24 (talk) 20:42, 12 February 2012 (AEST)

It already is in the correct spot now.

Yes, the rank of Brigadier is Equivalent to a Commodore and Air Commodore

Yes, Brigadier in the Australian Army is a 1 Star rank.

However, a brigadier is NOT a general. Please read Australian Army officer rank insignia.

Pdfpdf (talk) 21:37, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

There is a 'Citation Needed' next to the statement.Nford24 (talk) 09:58, 13 February 2012 (AEST)

Next to which statement? Pdfpdf (talk) 09:57, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

Reference 3 of Australian Army officer rank insignia.Nford24 (talk) 21:52, 13 February 2012 (AEST)

OK. (Thanks.) Nevertheless, it's a fact. You are just as capable as I am of tracking it down. (After all - I'm "semi-retired", and you're a "young turk"!) I know there's a relevant reference somewhere - it's just that with my early-onset-alzhimers, I can't remember where ... Pdfpdf (talk) 12:28, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

I honestly can't be bothered looking for the reference or argueing the point, the army has never been my strong point (tends to go over my head anyway) the navy is my field. you win. Regards Nford24 (talk) 23:04, 13 February 2012 (AEST)

LOL! I honestly can't be bothered looking for the reference or argueing the point Neither can I!

Well, it's bin night (and recycling night too.) Cheers, Pdfpdf (talk) 13:13, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

P.S. I happily cede the RAN to you - not my field! Cheers, Pdfpdf (talk) 13:13, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

Lack of Army Equivalent Ranks

Needs some where references to Bombadier, Lance Bombadier and all the Private Equivilant Ranks in the Army eg. Sapper, Sig, Trooper, Craftsman etc. Depending on the Corps, Army has a few alternative ranks particularly at PTE level. --TinTin (talk) 04:24, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

I agree. --Pdfpdf (talk) 13:45, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

See Australian Army enlisted rank insignia#Private Soldier Ranks: Sapper (SPR) / (Private (rank)) Private (PTE) / (Trooper (rank)) Trooper (TPR) / (Gunner (rank)) Gunner (GNR) / (Signalman (rank)) Signalman (SIG) / Craftsman (CFN) / Musician (MUSN) --Pdfpdf (talk) 14:09, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

This is both relevant and interesting. --Pdfpdf (talk) 14:49, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

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Rank equivalents are incorrect

The correct rank equivalents are listed here: http://www.defence.gov.au/PayAndConditions/ADF/chapter-1/Part-4/default.asp

Can this page be edited to reflect the correct rank equivalents?

A Leading Aircraftman/woman is equivalent to an Able Seaman at EO3. A Lance Corporal is an EO4 with no Air Force or Navy equivalent (not equal to an Able Seaman) A Chief Petty Officer and Flight Sergeant are equivalent to a Warrant Officer 2nd Class (not equal to a Staff Sergeant).

Can the rank insignia be updated for the Air Force, as the shevrons are much more flat in these picture than they actually look in real life and as per: http://www.defence.gov.au/Badges/Badges_of_rank.pdf — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:8003:1975:8300:69F9:77C8:23D4:8D66 (talk) 10:49, 10 March 2018 (UTC)

Split Page

Cooee Cobbers, I think we should split the page into Australian Defence Force ranks and Australian Navy rank insignia (Which could be further split into Australian Navy enlisted rank insignia and Australian Navy officer rank insignia). Because currently... What the bloody hell?! This page is primarily meant to be a summary of the defence force ranks and you're including bloody specific navy rank insignia of all things (excuse the language, I'm just flabbergasted). IronBattalion (talk) 06:08, 2 May 2021 (UTC)

@IronBattalion: There does not seem to be any opposition to the split, so I created Draft:Ranks of the Royal Australian Navy to prepare the new page. It is currently missing a lead with information analogous to the lead of Ranks of the Royal Australian Air Force. Maybe you or someone else with specific expertise could help get the draft into shape so the split can proceed? Felix QW (talk) 09:39, 9 June 2023 (UTC)

Insignia changes due to accession of Charles III?

Should we mention/update the page in due time with the new insignia (CIIIR cypher, Tudor crown symbol) that will affect some ranks, now that Charles III is the King? 118.211.25.70 (talk) 03:51, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

Nothing has been decided WRT to Crowns on Ranks, Badges, Brevets as of yet. Given Australia will look at a Second Republican referendum in a potential Second term of an Albanese government, maybe for the time being things are just "marking-time" Hawkeyebasil (talk) 03:29, 13 February 2023 (UTC)

APPOINTMENT OF THE INAUGURAL ADF SENIOR ENLISTED LEADER

A new position is to be created comparable to that of the SEAC to the US and UK and will sit inline with the three service Warrant Officers at NATO OR-9 / ADF E-10 rank in PMKEYS. No details yet on what the Insignia for the time being is the same as the Special Insignia of the Service WO - Since the inaugural Senior Enlisted Advisor to the CDF (SEAC-CDF) is a RAAF Aviatior - Ken Robertson, was promoted to the Rank of WOFF-AF and wears the same Slides, and Cap Badge whist in this billet

Can some one please update the Boxes to show this across all the services

Hawkeyebasil (talk) 03:30, 13 February 2023 (UTC)

References