Talk:Archer (Fate/stay night)

First header

Archer does possess Noble Phantasms, his blades Kanshou and Bakuya are classed as Rank C Noble Phantasms. UBW is the ultimate expression of his ability to Image, not Trace, and while it IS a Reality Marble he can create onjects independantly of it, such as his blades. UBW is NOT used to keep them around, hence they're Noble Phantasms. What UBW does is transport those in the area of effect to a pocket dimension unaffected by the outside world in which Shirou/Archer can manifest any weapon he's seen or is seeing in unlimited numbers without expending any additional mana beyond what is required to keep UBW up. This is distinct from Tracing, which just allows him to copy what exists, whereas Imaging lets him create anything from his mind at the highest level of ability. It's just easiest with weapons because that's where his focus lies.

Noble Phantasms

I am NOT sure if most of his blades are from Tracing Gilgamesh's stash of weaponry and I do not know if saying so is completely accurate! I will not rid of that until I look up on this some more... I don't really know if calling his blades Noble Phantasms is completely accurate. I'm fairly sure it's not. I know for a fact that Unlimited Blade Works is indeed his Noble Phantasm, but his blades is just a fragment of his ability to trace weapons I believe, unlike Saber's Excalibur which is always on her. Archer could very well use any weapon he desires, but he chooses those two knives instead. That does not classify as his Noble Phantasm, in my opinion. A Noble Phantasm is something special that identifies the servant, a special attack or weapon. Like how Rin describes it. Some servants have a weapon that acts like an unlimited gun while other servants have a special attack that's like a one shot missle. Archer has a one shot missle in that sort of sense, Unlimited Blade Works. Mirioki 07:00, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

UBW is actually his Reality Marble, not his Noble Phantasm. It's a different class of power, mainly because it can be USED to make Noble Phantasm's without actually being one. As for his weapons being Noble Phantasms, the game itself says they are. Remember, weapons he traces are the same as what he traced them from, but one rank weaker. Except for special cases like Caliburn/Clarent, of course. Keep in mind that Tracing isn't on the same order as Imaging(which creates items from his mind without having to have seen them), and UBW is the next step up from Imaging, letting him create unlimited weapons in his area of effect without having to exert any energy beyond what's required to keep his Reality Marble active. Also, UBW isn't a one shot missile OR an unlimited gun like a Noble Phantasm would be. It just creates weapons, it doesn't give any special control over them beyond the added ability to know how to use them and what they are. It's more of a weapons factory than a weapon itself. Nezu 21:21, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

That makes sense. The weapons he creates are already copies of Noble Phantasms, so technically they are Noble Phantasms themselves. I had always thought that Archer's Reality Marble and his Noble Phantasm were the same Unlimited Blade Works, but the way you put it makes more sense. I've always been a bit confused of the difference between Noble Phantasm, Reality Marble, and Marble Phantasm. I am aware of the differences between Tracing and Imaging, so I tried to make them both come together by saying they both "create" weapons because that's what they both initially do. Mirioki 22:45 April 2 (UTC)

I’ve once again added the small paragraph stating that Reality Marble/UBW is not strictly a Noble Phantasm, since it was removed without giving a reason. Discuss here if it’s a problem. Ephyon 01:13, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

I feel I must join in on this. The ONLY NP that Archer has is UBW. The others are indeed NPs, but they are not his and as such should not be placed in the NP section for him. In the Status Menu for the game, the only NP listed is UBW, none of the others are there. If he were to trace Excalibur, would you place that in the NP section as well? But, having them on this page is the only place where they can be listed. They should indeed stay there, but I felt I had to clear this up. Due to the game placing UBW under Archer's Noble Phantasms in the Status Menu, it is indeed considered his NP. Erithis 07:33, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

-I'll be simple and /Facepalm Unlimited Blade Works is NOT a Noble Phantasm. Archer Himself says so when he uses it in the Unlimited Blade Works route. The game lists it as a Noble Phantasm for reasons one REALLY cannot be sure of. Unlimited Blade Works is virutally as much a Noble Phantasm as Assassin/Sasaki Kojirou's "Tsubame Gaeshi"(Which is listed as a skill in the game, despite Unlimited Blade Works being listed as a Noble Phantasm). And if need be I can screenshot the scene in which Archer denies that Unlimited Blade Works is a noble phantasm. Listing it as one is...Well that's pretty much all I have to say. Let's just be clear it is not at a noble phantasm. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.11.46.168 (talk) 06:50, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Heroic Spirits memory

It's not clear in the game whether Archer has knowledge of what he's been used for because he can trace. I think it would be a good idea to remove mention of that in the article.

Granted, I wasn't so sure if that was true myself. I've never played the game, though, so I really don't have the authority to mess with the original unless I'm absolutely certain a piece of info is wrong. If you played the game and are certain of that fact, then feel free to remove it yourself along with an explanation of why you removed it. Thanks. Mirioki 13:08, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

It's not so much because he can Trace that he remembers things unlike other Heroic Spirits, it's because of the nature of his Reality Marble. When used it not only allows him to manifest weapons he's never even seen, he ALSO gets the required knowledge to use them as well as their past history. Think of it as Psychometry. Taken a step further as it is, it lets him retain his memories as well. This is, in fact, the entire reason that the UBW scenario happens. Also, initial poster person, please sign your comments. Nezu 17:32, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

It only allows him to manifest weapons he's seen before (which comes from when he met Gilgamesh when he was still alive). Also, the scene with the book scene in UBW didn't say Archer, but that Eirei (with a plural) know about each other through those "books". Eirei become different sort of beings that are already full of knowledge that they didn't experience before but somehow know by gut instinct (like how Angra Mainyu knows he will never win in a killing competition against ORT or Primate Murder). Even if Servants are destroyed and don't carry on the memories and experience into the main body, the record of what they did is still stored by the world. That's my interpretation of it, although I still think your tracing idea is valid and makes sense, but I was curious about where exactly it came from in the game text. --Abahg32 19:23, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

No comments? --Abahg32 17:29, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

Abahg32, most of what you said is very insightful, though I should clarify things. The "Hall of Heroes" that the Eirei souls are encased in could be considered a computer; basically, the Eirei themselves become the original copy of a file that then becomes archived. Eirei can be summoned as Servants outside of the Holy Grail War, but these versions are "copies" of the original file, and as such, when they're deleted, the memories they had are lost. The copies are equivalent to the originals in every way, right down to the soul; but in the end, they're still just copies. During the Holy Grail War, the actual *originals* are called down and recieve material bodies; as such, the Servants have memories of fighting in Holy Grail Wars, but since there are countless numbers of Eirei, only a couple actually possess memories. For example, Saber has fought in two Holy Grail Wars, and she's maintains the memories of fighting in both. Archer is the exception; because Unlimited Blade Works' ability to allow him to gain the memories of whoever used a weapon he traces, all of Archer's "copies" can cumulatively gain memories. The original doesn't get these memories, but each copy gains them back whenever summoned. Ergo, when Archer was summoned by Rin, his memories were "in confusion" because he was hit with a huge blast of memories he didn't have before. Effectively, this allows Archer to be the only servant to gain "combat experience" in the posthumous world.

--Terek 18:30, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the response. According to Kotomine though, it's still impossible for Servant though. Servants, even if the same ones are summoned, don't keep their memories since they're just records from what they were back when they were alive. Saber just kept her memories from the previous fight because her soul's being cycled from her timeline to another timeline over and over again, so she's technically still alive. Plus, while Kotomine does say that Servants are the actual "Eirei" themselves, there's evidence otherwise that they aren't, especially since there's actually quotations around "hontai". He also compares that with the normal "mindless" power that's being summoned (going by Kara no Kyoukai, these sorts of power possesses people). And Avenger DOES say in his monologue in hollow ataraxia that Servants are "copies" of the original. This seems like the typical Kinoko logic where "main body" = acting just like the original would. The interpretation I've (on Japanese threads on the subject) that I'm personally in favor of is that a portion of their power, the "bunshin" (and not their will) is sent to this world, possesses a random person, while only the record of what happens and the maryoku is transmitted back.

Also, after going over the scene where "memories" from Kanshou and Bakuya were flowing in Shirou's mind, it looked more like those memories were back when Archer was still alive in his timeline, not after he was being summoned elsewhere. I still don't really see any cases in the game where it's definitely said that UBW = reason why Archer keeps his "memories", especially because of the plural use of Eirei in the "book" scene. If that was meant to be only Archer, I don't really see why Kinoko would start off with Eirei-tachi ga blahblahblah. Here's one old thread for reference - http://bbs.fuzzy2.com/unofficialbbs/typemoon/bbs/?b=netabare2&c=t&id=1149 and http://f16.aaa.livedoor.jp/~softch/kako/1078286100.htm (starting from 129). BTW, also posted a topic about this on Beast's Lair.

And according to the Side Material encyclopedia entry, the reason why Archer's memories were muddled initially were actually because his summoning was imperfect, not because he was hit with memories that contradict each other.

--132.162.219.26 06:22, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Come to think of it, I do remember my friend telling me that when Archer traces weapons in UBW, he also traces the user's memories in how to use the weapon correctly. Afterall, a weapon used improperly is useless. For example, Archer could trace an Excalibur, but he also has to be able to trace the user's memory of how to use it's abilities in order to actually use the famous Excalibur blast of light. Of course, I don't know exactly where in the game it says that, seeing as I've never played it myself. Sorry I can't really answer your question, but that's how my friend, who did play the game, explained it to me. My theory is that he might just have traced how to use the weapons themself and that stays in his memory? I'm probably wrong... god I wish I remembered what my friend told me, it was the most perfect explanation of Archer! I'll have to ask my friend when I can contact him... Mirioki 06:41, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Ahh, this is quite interesting material, and I'll have to distort my positions a bit. There are too many variables in FSN to likely arrive at a cymose solution to Archer's memory; if Archer has the memories of those who once possessed his weapons, there's no reason to suggest why his own memories would be encoded because he's creating copies, and if such an encoding were possible, why wouldn't an Eirei with a real Noble Phantasm (that gets passed down through the ages) remember his/her past as well? Furthermore, the only three servants who were summoned in prior wars have some "special" explanation that cannot help our Archer case; Gilgamesh never left the real world, Arturia keeps getting cycled, and Heracles (the ideal Berserker) has lost his sanity and is in no position to confirm whether or not he was summoned in prior wars and remembers them. Archer's proficiency with a Reality Marble is not a satisfactory explanation, either; there's no reason to suggest that his memory correlates with being able to impact reality in some way. However, it's clear that Archer's memories are causing him great pain, and he seems to remember a great deal more (like Ilya's pet name) than what he should glean from skimming a book. The only conclusion I can reach is ambiguous enough to warrant the removal of the "memory" bit from the article, and this is derived simply by process of logical elimination (such that if TYPE-MOON refutes this, we're at a loss for a solution); Archer is still alive. Since he chose to become a Heroic Spirit of his own initiative (for whatever debatable reasons), I wouldn't be surprised if he reached his disillusionment while he was still alive. This further works to support the "bushin" versions of the Eirei summoned in the Holy Grail War; since Archer's real body and soul are still around, he doesn't "die" when the "bushin" gets destroyed (and further, this view lessens the mortality of the servants consumed by Angra Mainyu). However, this raises the question of death; are Heroic Spirit "bushins" copies of a Eirei at that Eirei's prime of life, or time of death? Medusa, Kojirou, Heracles and Alexander the Great died while they were fairly young, but Gilgamesh allegedly died from old age. ---Terek 15:46, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Not entirely true. Sasaki's age was unknown when he died. Reports state that he may have been as young as twenty, but also that he may have been as old as 50. Pop culture tends to have his age of death around the mid-twenties to early-thirties, but that's mainly so they can get younger actors to play him. In any case, I think it probably ties into the prime of their life, rather than age of death.--み使い Mitsukai 19:44, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

This poses a bit of a problem. It seems that the origins of Archer’s ability to remember his past battles is a mystery. Thus, it is not one hundred percent verifiable. This may mean that the little part describing tracing as the reason why he can keep is memories should be removed and replaced with a more ambiguous statement. Mirioki 03:11, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

I recall reading somewhere that Archer's ability to retain his memories is due to the fact that he is a Counter Guardian. As most Heroic Spirits become so for their deeds and their gifts (their NP's), their souls trascend the normal death cycle and are removed from the timeline to be placed in the Throne of Heroes. However, as Archer had made a pact with the world, he's rather different from a regular Heroic Spirit, with one of those fundamental changes being that he retains his memories. However, the memories are retained in a form which Archer describes as a book. He doesn't actually experience them, and thusly, does not hold any emotional reactions to it, which is why Archer continues his attempts to kill Shirou (because his ability to retain all his memories throughout all timelines implies that he already has knowledge of what happens in the UBW arc; however, we are to assume that it's his first run through the UBW timeline within that arc, or he would've known the outcome of his fight with Shirou)

However, this brings up another odd case regarding Saber. As she, too, made a pact with the world, it may be possible she is a Counter Guardian. However, as she didn't die before being summoned as a Heroic Spirit, she not quite so removed from the timeline, and retains her memories (She also doesn't possess a spirit form, as she's not dead). However, it doesn't seem we'll ever know from storyline material, because she rejects the holy grail in all the storylines (except UBW Good) and thusly, becomes a regular heroic spirit due to her legends.

Final note, Archer doesn't trace the memories in the weapons; more like he traces the weapons so perfectly that they retain the skills from their use in their lifetime. He only gains knowledge of its use, not the life story of its user. Mrthefter (talk) 17:00, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Archer's Existence

I think the entire last paragraph and final sentence of the first paragraph in the "Archer's Role" section is incorrect. It's already been shown in Heaven's Feel that Archer can exist independently of Shirou, because, technically, our Archer was the Shirou that went through the Fate scenario. Archer doesn't heal like Shirou because he lacks Avalon in his body, and Fate is the only scenario in which Archer doesn't interfere directly with his past self. As such, no time paradox is created because Archer is effectively in a parallel world; killing the Shirou in UBW or HF doesn't have any effect on his existence, because the Fate scenario Shirou still exists.

Now, why does he want to kill Shirou? Archer became a Heroic Spirit to defend people, not to end the cycle of his existence; he's only aggravated by Shirou's idealism, such that, he can't take it anymore. The analogy I was told was that of a mirror; Archer can't stand his own reflection, so he smashes it. ---Malintex_Terek 20:52, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

Archer does want to kill Shirou, but it's more of a combination of the things he's been forced to do as a Heroic Spirit, and the fact that he made the deal to become a Spirit so he could be a hero...yet can't save people. So he wants to wipe out Shirou in a weird attempt to fix that, PLUS prevent Shirou from going through the same things he did. It's a weird, weird death wish.

No, he really does wish to kill Shirou. He thinks that killing Shirou will prevent him from becoming a hero. I don't know if Archer knows or not whether he exists outside of the timeline and doing that will not change his own fate. Regardless, killing Shirou will prevent Shirou from any heartache in the future, such as, realizing the fact that he cannot save everyone. Mirioki 15:09, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

It wouldn't create a paradox though, as was stated already, because Archer does exist outside of the normal timeline and so would exist whether Shirou was killed or not now. Nezu 07:00, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

Nezu is right. Archer doesn't exist within the same timeline as Shirou at the moment of his summoning. In UBW, this fact was clearly shown when Shirou defeated Archer, but Archer came back as a different Archer to save Shirou... (that's how my Japanese friend explained it to me) Hopefully that will clear things up. Mirioki 15:09, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

Uh. Archer didn't die when Gilgamesh used that sneak attack on him in UBW. --Abahg32 17:28, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

I thought he did die... although I don't know who killed him... and the new Archer that came back to save Shirou was the new hero that Shirou had become after UBW. Thus, old Archer = dead by... somebody... and new Archer = reborn after UBW. Mirioki 06:45, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Just a quick note, Archer survived the Shirou battle in UBW; Lancer also survived his battle against Archer. Both were simply "defeated", and Archer came back after Gilgamesh was defeated to have a brief dialogue with Rin.

--Terek 18:30, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

Replace fanart with official art?

I think it'd be better to use an official Archer picture, rather than a fanart (no offense to the artist). All the other Fate/Stay Night-related articles seem to use official art.

Shall I upload the official picture of Archer lounging in furniture wreckage? And would it be best to overwrite the fanart file, or to upload the new picture separately and change the article links?

I think that would be a good idea, and if you do upload a pic, just overwrite the fanart file. Save upload space for Wikipedia. Mirioki 03:35, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

Hrm, it seems I can't upload the file without a Wikipedia account. Here's the image (323Kb), if someone with clearance wants to handle it: http://img266.imageshack.us/my.php?image=fatearcherwreckage9am.jpg

I've done the deed for you... you know, you could have just registered for a Wikipedia account, oh well. Mirioki 05:26, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

A note to those who monitor this page; the thumbnail of the game screen leads to a really bad screenshot of the Anime. Why is this, and how can it be fixed?

Dunno, maybe your browser is just using your cache to reload the picture. I remember I reset my cache and reloaded Wiki and the regular pic comes up just fine. iow: it works fine for me. Mirioki 20:44, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Kansho, Bakuya and Rho Aias

I’m planning on adding these two (Well, three) to the NP list, but I’ve hit a bit of a stump: I can’t find any information on the daggers’ origins and the only thing I’ve see about the shield is Arai’s mention of Hector (So I guess it was Achilles’ shield?). I could just plug them in there without the mythic information, but I’d like to be sure.

Also, once/if this is done I think it’d be proper to add them to Shirou’s article as well. Ephyon 16:27, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

I've taken the liberty of expanding on these items, as well as noting that they are Noble Phantasms not inside of Gate of Babylon. K&B have had an expansion on their legend (it's a real legend, too), and I've added educated guesses as to the ranking of the various Noble Phantasms using the tabulated parameter table on arai's website. RA is C++, HRN is C+, and CALAD is D+. 169.237.238.251 21:10, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the K&B legend bit. When researching the names I came across that version and another one that said the emperor had executed Gan Jiang to make sure no better sword was ever made, after which Mo Ye committed suicide, so I couldn't decide which one to go with. Ephyon 21:24, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Here's a problem. Since all of Archer's Noble Phantasms are traces, we have inconsistencies with the other pages, id est, K&B, Caladblog, and Rho Aias are all one rank higher than what we have down here, but that isn't reflected in the tracing values. Furthermore, if we are to put down Caliburn, which can only be a B+ Noble Phantasm as traced by Shirou [Excalibur (A++) > Caliburn > God Hand (No damage for B or less), factoring in maximum trace of B++, it must be B+], how would we illustrate that? 169.237.238.251 00:51, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

My idea was to treat traces in the same as can speak of Rin's Gand or Caster's Rain of Light. They are not the real Noble Phantasms, but projections with characteristics, effects and powers very similar yet never equal to the true artifacts. If we simply state that none of these weapons are the real armaments but copies one rank lower than the original, that should take care of it. Ephyon 01:22, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Identity

Is Archer literally Shirō? Or an alternate version of Shirō? I know what the article says. I just find it confusing (if im interpreting the article correctly). -- 70.101.126.172 22:01, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Also, someone needs to mark spoilers on that part. --24.30.150.13 02:23, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

I like Swords!

Be so kind to excuse the title. There's a bit of a problem with the ability section:

Once a Noble Phantasm has been produced, Archer commonly uses traditional Tracing to alter the weapon into a black arrow. In some instances, Archer does not proceed to this extra step, provided the Noble Phantasm he produced is aerodynamic enough to be fired.

Actually, that's mostly ok, the problem is that Archer doesn't have THAT much preference for... well, archering. We know that Caladbolg and Hrunting are fired as arrows, but he's also using K&B and the Overedge (Which Nasu made canon) in melee just as much if not more.

What I'm saying is that even if the above statement is correct, Archer doesn't use the bow and the Broken Phantasms all that much, yet the present article makes it sound as if that were his standard battle strategy. Right now I don't have the will to reword it myself, but I just wanted to give a heads up because I eventually will if nobody else does. Ephyon 21:14, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Sure, I'll fix it. Terek 03:36, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Caliburn?

Does Archer have Caliburn? I'd imagine he would since he won the war with Saber and knows her identity; even if he can't use Avalon, at one point he *should* have seen Caliburn, so I would imagine it to be in the back of his mind somwhere. Should we post it here? Terek 03:38, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

I don't think we should. He probably knows how to trace it of course, but he never does. In theory, he should also have stuff like Gil's Gram, but they are, if anything, treated as random bullets for the gatling-style UBW. I think we should stick to what is actually seen, as if that weren't enough of a mess by itself. Ephyon 08:27, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Gan Jiang and Mo Xie

Who keeps changing the spelling back to "Mo Ye"? The character clearly reads "Xie" and therefore the name should be spelled as such. TianXia 13:40, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

If you'd simply check the historial you'd see it's Liminy0 and his/her reasoning for doing so. I know nothing of Chinese characters, so I don't know which is right. --Ephyon 15:30, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

It's Mo Ye, but the character is wrong. While 耶 is an acceptable way to transcribe it. It's more commonly written as 邪. Heck, even MS Pinyin has Mo Ye written as 莫邪. I'll change it. 76.102.199.11 05:34, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:FSN ARCHER.jpg

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Fair use rationale for Image:ArcherCaladbolgII.jpg

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Fair use rationale for Image:ArcherKanshoBakuya.jpg

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Fair use rationale for Image:ArcherRhoAias.jpg

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Role in Hollow Ataraxia

Shouldn't this be added? For example, saying why he happens to be in the sequel at all when he was dead at the end of the previous game, or really anything at all. Heck, even a copy/paste of the paragraph on Rin's page. 24.210.220.108 (talk) 00:09, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Sakura, Taiga and Rin

What happened to these three in Archer's timeline after the 5th Holy Grail War? As we already know Ilya died a year after the war but what about these three? If anyone can find information comment on this and maybe add the info to Archer's Page. --Soulshade (talk) 03:40, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

I dunno eh? Someone needs to find out for us. Maybe we could ask Type-moon for some answers? --219.89.6.26 (talk) 07:16, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Japanese Variation Chant From The Game

I added the Japanese version of the chan as seen on the first screen of the Fate/Stay night Visual Novel. Asking that it be checked to make sure it is absolutely correct. 70.242.121.34 (talk) 15:18, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Dante from Devil may cry

Is their any relation between Archer and Dante they look very similar especially the coat.67.52.248.218 (talk) 16:16, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

"Fate/stay night character redirects to lists"

What happened to the character page articles for the fate/stay night characters. they all just get redirected now. what is the reason for redirects? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sifsclub (talk • contribs) 02:02, 3 September 2009 (UTC)