Talk:Archduke Joseph Árpád of Austria

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No, still not an Archduke, and no Crown Prices, Princesses, HI&RH, etc. either[edit]

There are no Archdukes in either Hungary, Austria, or Germany.

In Hungary:

in 1921 the Hungarian government passed a law which revoked Charles' (I of Austria, IV of Hungary) rights and dethroned the Habsburgs.
the Statute IV of 1946 regarding the abolition of certain titles and ranks, still in force,
- declares annulment of the Hungarian aristocratic and noble ranks, such as duke [1. § (1)]
- forbids the use of honorifics referring to ranks or titles abolished by this Statute [3. § (3)]

In Austria:

The Law concerning the Expulsion and the Takeover of the Assets of the House Habsburg-Lorraine of 1919, still in force, legally dethroned the House of Habsburg-Lorraine as rulers of the country.
The de:Adelsaufhebungsgesetz (Law on the Abolition of Nobility) of 1919, still in force, abolishes all noble titles and privileges, and also prohibits the use of noble titles as the part of the name.

In Germany:

"Following the First World War, both Austria and Germany became republics, abolishing the nobility and all the privileges and titles pertaining thereto."
"Article 109 of the Weimar Constitution, inter alia, abolished all privileges based on birth or status and provided that marks of nobility were to be valid only as part of a surname. Pursuant to Article 123(1) of the present Constitutional Law, that provision remains applicable today."^[1]
- Privileges based on birth or social status were abolished.
- "Noble titles form part of the name only; noble titles may not be granted any more."

In effect:

Both Austria and Hungary have legislations in force dethroning the Habsburgs. Germany has abolished the nobility in 1919.

-> No-one is a prince, crown or otherwise, duke, arch or otherwise, baron, earl or whatever of that sort of either Hungary, Austria or Germany.

Both Austria, Hungary and germany have laws abolishing hereditary aristocracy, with noble ranks and titles.

-> No-one can legally call himself/herself as such in either Hungary or Austria. The previous titles may form a part of the surname only in Germany.

-> No citizen of either Hungary or Austria can legally call another citizen of Hungary or Austria a prince, archduke or whatever of that sort.

Both Austria and Hungary have laws against noble honourifics.

-> No citizen of Austria or Hungary can legally be styled using ranks or titles of aristocracy and nobility.

-> There are no His/Her Imperial and Royal Highnesses (HI&RH) in either Hungary or Austria.

No citizen of Hungary or Austria can legally use nobiliary particles.

-> In austrian law, no citizen of Austria can have a "von" (= "of") nobiliary particle as a part of his/her name or style.

On the other hand:

As members of this family may hold multiple citizenships, German being among them,

-> it can be argued that their legal name in Germany is "X von Habsburg", given that this name is written so in their German passports.

-> it can be argued that their legal surname in Germany contains parts such as "Fürst", "Erzherzog" etc. given that the surname is written so in their German passports.

In the case of citizens of Germany, "marks of nobility were to be valid only as part of a surname".

In this case, as nobiliary particles do not denote legal rights and privileges, and but only may become a part of the surname of the person,

-> "von" should not be translated as "of".

-> Parts of the surname referring to noble titles pre 1919, such as "Fürst", "Erzherzog" etc. should not be translated to English.

Translating parts of the surname would be analogous to translating the names of US Presidents Gerald Ford, Jimmy Carter and George W. Bush to German as Gerald Furt, Jimmy Fuhrmann and Georg W. Busch.

-> HIH/HRH etc. styles are not parts of the surname, and thus should not be used.

^ http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=CELEX:62009C0208:EN:HTML OPINION OF ADVOCATE GENERAL Sharpston delivered on 14 October 2010 (1) Case C-208/09

Title[edit]

Umm it seems this was moved without any REAL discussion. There are about 10,000 dukes, archdukes, duchesses, princesses, duchesses etc out there (including on Wikipedia) of countries, principalities, monarchies and general houses of nobility that simply no longer exist officially. These are called pretenders to the throne. As long as it is verifiable that they are are along the descendents of the "royal" line, then they can keep the title. If it isn't legal, why do you even care? Sorry. Wikimandia (talk) 14:33, 18 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

[1] ttp://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=CELEX:62009C0208:EN:HTML OPINION OF ADVOCATE GENERAL Sharpston delivered on 14 October 2010 (1) Case C-208/09

[1]