Talk:Aračinovo crisis

Low importance?!

How the hell is this article of low importance?! How is one of the major turning points in the history of Macedonia an article of low importance?! The political landscape was COMPLETELY changed after Arachinovo. It was Arachinovo that "broke the camel's back". 77.28.93.217 (talk) 16:38, 6 July 2022 (UTC)

NATO supported the Albanian side of the conflict

It is a Macedonian nationalist conspiracy claim, advanced by anti-West/pro-Russia Macedonian nationalists. Reliable sources like Bugajski elaborate on this, though I can't cite them right now. It is not surprising that the source being used to push the nationalist narrative is an unreliable source, not one published by a reputable peer-reviewed publisher. Ktrimi991 (talk) 12:20, 2 June 2023 (UTC)

@Walter white502930291 Hello. Participate in this discussion if you have something new to add. You're almost past your third revert. Citing a single primary source is not gonna cut it. You need strong secondary sourcing. The content of the article doesn't support such a clearcut interpretation. Please read up on WP:NPOV too. StephenMacky1 (talk) 12:30, 2 June 2023 (UTC)

Regarding your statement here - it's already elaborated in the "Controversies" section.

Now, firstly are you calling Mark Curtis, David Hackworth and Scott Taylor Macedonian nationalists? This seems illogical. I would also like to kindly request that you cite Bugajski, since you deem them reliable.

It is clear that American instructors in Aračinovo during the crisis is not some "Macedonian nationalist conspiracy theory", since there's foreign sources backing up such claims.

Furthermore, Mark Curtis is an acclaimed journalist, and his book (which acts as a secondary source to the US instructor claims) has also been acclaimed. Given the information at hand, I view it as a reliable source, and rest assured that he is not some "anti-West/pro-Russia Macedonian nationalist" like you make him to be. Infact, he is vocally critical of Russia's invasion of Ukraine.

Furthermore, according to the statements of Glen Nye, there were indeed American citiziens in Aračinovo during the crisis.

Regards. Kluche (talk) 18:03, 2 June 2023 (UTC)

Instead of writing a wall of crap, read my comments carefully enough to understand I was not talking about any Curtis, Hackworth or Taylor above. Ktrimi991 (talk) 21:00, 2 June 2023 (UTC)

I'll state upfront that I have no intentions of attacking anyone, however I think that your comment is contributing to an uncivil environment (at least that's how it made me feel), in regards to WP:IUC section d.

Either way, the first part of my comment (regarding the edit summary) is still valid. Best regards. Kluche (talk) 23:57, 2 June 2023 (UTC)

Not uncivil, but irritated for obvious reasons. Before calling other people's comments "illogical", make sure you understand what they are saying. On my other edit, the article says: Namely, according to General Pande Petrovski, who was in charge of the operation on the Macedonian side, he was called by the President called at 9:00 in the morning on 25 June, and was told that allegedly "NATO General Secretary had called him personally telling him to halt the operation because there were American instructors trapped in Aračinovo".....Petrovski's description of these circumstances have recently been connected with statements done by Glenn Nye, a state department official in the U.S. Embassy in Macedonia. Namely, during the 2002 congressional elections in the US, Nye revealed that while assigned to Macedonia and Kosovo, in 2001 he organised the rescue of twenty-six American citizens who were trapped behind insurgent lines. Researchers Mark Curtis and Scott Taylor, claim that the foreigners who Nye mentions were advisors from the American military company MPRI. A statement confirmed by American military journalist, US army colonel and war veteran David H. Hackworth who claims sources in the US army in Kosovo confirm that the mission to save the NLA rebels from imminent destruction was to save '17 US instructors' who were either former US officers or members of MRPI. However, commentators including former Presidential Advisor Stevo Pendarovski, who was spokesperson for the Interior Ministry at the time of the conflict, have dismissed such claims as mystifications and conspiracy theories, stating that there have been no American instructors at Aracinovo. This is not as straghtforward and simple as the infobox makes it look to be. The content cited above gives 3 views: former US officers, MPRI instructors, no Americans at all. Ktrimi991 (talk) 00:49, 3 June 2023 (UTC)

Your edit summary which I linked above states: This seems to quite dubious and speculative for the infobox. Better elaborate somewhere in the article. It is clear - according to your statement, the presence of American instructors in Aračinovo is not elaborated in the article. This is not bad-faith, this is what can be extracted from the summary.

By the way, given the information in the article, I propose that the presence of American citizens (not instructors) in Aračinovo during the crisis be stated in Wikivoice, since there's multiple sources confirming them, inlcuding the statement of Glenn Nye, and effectivly none which deny it (and no, Pendarovski talks about instructors, not American citizens). Kluche (talk) 11:34, 3 June 2023 (UTC)

No need for a lot of words: the prensence or not of American instructors to help the Albanian side is disputed and a matter of debate, hence including it in the infobox out of context is not a good idea. On the American citizens, I am not interested in that part. Do whatever you want with it. Ktrimi991 (talk) 12:17, 3 June 2023 (UTC)

Sources and opinions

@Durraz0 Hello. I believe there's a misunderstanding here, so let me try to clear up the matter. The 2004 source's quote is an opinion by Laity and what I'm doing here is simply attributing that opinion (per WP: RSOPINION). The 2015 source is a primary source and it wouldn't hurt to have a secondary source about the figure too. The article already relies too much on Petrovski's source. I also suspect the reliability of that source, especially in regards to its publisher. StephenMacky1 (talk) 14:10, 23 June 2023 (UTC)

Actually Petrovski's source is not even from 2015. It was published in 2006. The 2015 edition is the digitalized version of the book by Risto Stefov. Either way, it's still an insider's account of the conflict. StephenMacky1 (talk) 14:27, 23 June 2023 (UTC)

I don't think Petrovski's source is reliable when we take into account that he is a Macedonian general, if you read the actual thing you also realize that it has alot of misinformation and is generally very biased. His "insider accounts" as you call them, directly stand against the claims of non-biased western sources. GermanManFromFrankfurt (talk) 17:17, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

I simply clarified why it's a primary source. Perhaps it should be only reserved for his opinion and used the way primary sources should be used, especially when there's no secondary source to accompany them. By the way, I've read the SRBIN.info source and it contains only Anthony Tate's opinion. StephenMacky1 (talk) 18:20, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Misciting of Sources by LocalHero

LocalHero claims that there were 4,000 NLA rebels in Arachinovo, for that the he uses the source "Testimonials - 2001".

He uses this as evidence:

"“there were about 4,000 terrorists in Arachinovo and they were preparing for an attack.” I gave the President a short reply assuring him that all that was propaganda and that there were no more than 1,000 to 1,500 terrorists in all of Macedonia and that a large part of those numbers were probably terrorists who had escaped from Karadak Region where they could no longer operate."

I don't think I have to further explain.

The same source also says this on Page 98

" There were no more than 200 to 250 terrorists inside Arachinovo, but they were well organized to defend the village by engaging its residents to do the ancillary logistics work." GermanManFromFrankfurt (talk) 15:12, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

POV pushing

The citations that claim the Macedonian Army failed militarily are laughable at best and contradicted by a dozen other sources. The fighting was stopped by NATO and not by the NLA.

>https://www.sun-sentinel.com/2001/07/12/wanted-guns-for-hire/

>The UCK brigade — dug in around Aracinovo, four miles north of Skopje, the capital of Macedonia — had been surrounded for two weeks, under heavy attack by Macedonian government forces and on the verge of destruction.

>Sources in the U.S. Army in Kosovo familiar with the 3/502nd Airborne Battalion’s rescue operation confirm that the mission was all about saving the “17 ‘instructors’ among the withdrawing rebels — former U.S. officers, who were providing the rebels with continued military education.

This source alone uses US military officials as sources and is a retired war veteran. There was no 3 day offensive in Aracinovo the Macedonian security forces planned a 5 day offensive which was stopped on the 3td day as is explained by Pande Petrovski the man who planned the operation.

GoofyGoofyson (talk) 10:53, 22 September 2023 (UTC)