Talk:Ali Khamenei/Archive 1

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HE IS ORIGINALLY FROM TAFRESH NOT TABRIZ

the father's grandfather of ali khamenei (seyed mohamad) has migrated from tafresh in today markazi province to khamene in tabriz. only his grandfather ( seyed husain ) was born i

Khamenei's policy towards universities and higher education in Iran

I suggest the following be added to domestic policy section


In a speech given in 2002 Kahemenei stressed that he was not satisfied with the performance of then minister of science and higher education, Mostafa Moeen since he had allowed students to pursue activities deemed against Islam in his point of view, such as practicing and studying music, arts traveling abroad to the land of non-believers and conducting field trips that were not religious in nature, in the speech Khamenei asks for stricter control on these issues urging the universities to enforce Islamic values.[68]

Vandalism

Someone is vandalizing the picture, and someone else is replacing the cartoon with a supersized picture. I'm still a newbie when it comes to editing pictures, but I'll try to sort it out. Zora 23:18, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

Also, some people have doctoring the article to make it look like Khameini is Taliban. These people should read their weekly news magazines (especially the Economist) and at least take a look at the Koran before making changes to the article. It is highly inaccurate. (Volosian) [April 6, 2008 from FBI and Daughter Lika Valentino/Alla Khameini, you can call in the FBI at 212-384-5000 to dispute this Ali Khamenei/Khameini is NOT a TERRORIST, NO LINKS TO ANY AL QAEDA or a RADICALISM GROUP, HE IS KNOWN AS IN THE INTELLIGENCE DIVISIONS AS A GENTLE GIANT] Grand Ayatollah Ali Khameini is not a Taliban nor a connection to any Terrorism, ok, lets get it straight, we know this family from experience since of 2003 - presently, and his daughter as she types our words, as i am sitting here with her on all Governmental Communication Disruptions to National Radios, TV's, so forth, they have been protecting and fighting the Taliban, and all Terrorism Threats in potentiality or that have struck the U.S. of A, with her rights, as a Dignitary of Iran, so now this can be used as a reference, so forth he is not a TALIBAN or a TERRORIST, nor his family members nor his Military, nor his Diginitaries.

Administrator - please make note of this. (Volosian)

This is from Lika Valentino aka Alla Khamenei / Khameini, papa is Grand Ayatolla of Iran as a Supreme Leader, so be polite, courtious to other writers, scholars, historians, intelligence officers, and human beings [spelling mistakes can be relinquished] do not vandalize, please leave a message if you are a CIA or any Agents of an Intelligence divisions of why this should not be here or so forth that picture should not be used, than so forth as stated or we will have to drag any vandals to the NY FBI at 26 Federal Plaza at 212-3874-5000 by DIPLOMATIC order and the Assistant Director of FBI, and i will as ASSISTANT DIRECTOR with her as a diplomat place an end to it, not an arrest but to make ones life a miserable nightmare, do not vandalize pictures, or articles of intelligence, dispute them professionally, politely, and with a reason of why place notations, for research as for example my site of the right of a dignitary who has those connections, and placed them o their scholar page, or writing or where to reference as example or books of reference, or site reference example repeat again "http://likadiplomat2007.wordpress.com for further reference on Iranian State, Dignitary non Superficial, or clear point in time first alert to all Iranian or U.S. Political National Delegations so forth. Only certain ranked individuals as for example CIA agents, or Diplomatic Dignitaries have rights to the edit section on Wikipedia it is a linked right by an OS connection to those Intelligence Officers, Dignitaries, and any other personnel with the sole right provided, so be polite to each other. Good luck Administrator, and all mentioned intelligence officers, and journalists, and writers.

Khomeini

I think his last name is spelled wrong, it should be خمینی right? Vpendse 03:09, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

NO, khomeini is another Ayatollah, precedent to Khamenei. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.82.106.136 (talk • contribs) 01:47, 5 January 2006 (UTC).
Actually I think it should be Kha.me.neh.ei خامنه‌ای
Khameneh (خامنه) is a town in Iran and the "ei ‌ای" at the end in farsi indicates that a person is from that town. Kiumars 12:45, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Abadan crisis

Ideleted some of the section about Abadan crisis and Mosaddegh, Khamanei was a youngster at that time and was not involved in politics at all. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.82.106.136 (talk • contribs) 01:47, 5 January 2006 (UTC).

NPOV dispute

Unreadable, unsigned nonsense

who says the allegations are false?

You wrote: "In recent years, there have been false allegations by the United States and Israel that he has been supporting a covert nuclear weapons development project in Iran as a response to the nuclear weapons possessed by Israel and the United States." The word "false" is not a fact and instead betrays the author's bias regarding the issue. Also, this page is extremely lacking for the leader of such a controversial government who has been in office since the 1980s. I'm wondering what was left out and why. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 147.129.20.101 (talk • contribs) 16:27, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but this article is basically a bull-shit fluff piece on Khamenei. See the aforementioned nuclear claims. The previous paragraph in the article is blatantly POV. There is no criticism whatsoever of the leader of a nation which routinely persecutes its religious minorities (see Bahai for examples). Quite frankly, this article needs a complete rewrite, and someone who has the time to watch over it and make sure that it doesn't turn into this kind of absolute crap again. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.116.28.180 (talk • contribs) 06:03, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
Why don't you make a page like you did for Ahmadinejad - "Controversies surrounding Mahmoud Ahmadinejad" If you want to grind your ax - that would be an appropriate place! And please, take your arrogance with you! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.214.51.9 (talk • contribs) 16:38, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
I have changed the page in several occasions but someone keep writting crap like "Great leader, martyr...blah blah blah"; Fascist Islamic idiots. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dj skazi (talk • contribs) 19:35, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
Cite your sources. --M@rēino 20:05, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Real stuff

My last revert was made in haste on my part. I misread it as though the article had been reverted to the previous "managed Iran's afairs with great skill" instead of to "Managed Irans affairs", which is certainly not POV. However, the current dispute between Khamanei's government and International community with respect to nuclear proliferation should be at least aknowledged. Having the section on his fatwa against nuvlear weapons and not the controversy is a complete non-sequitor. It should also be noted that the text of the fatwa has not been released. Someone reading the article without that paragraph would go away believing Khamanei was a completely uncontroversial ruler of Iran. That is far from the truth. It would be like an article on Bush's presidency without mention of the Iraq War. Clearly absurd. Thus the omision is POV 129.116.28.180 23:44, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

I looked at the article, and there's already some material about his connection to the nuclear issue (without sources). I'm not sure if more could be said. There's very little known about the inside politics of Iran. There's also no evidence that Khamenei is behind the nuclear program. Most believe it's former president Rafsanjani. But if you want to add new information to the article, you can do that - just cite your sources. Otherwise I'd have to take down the POV tag. AucamanTalk 01:21, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
Re: .. the text of the fatwa has not been released.
Fatwa does not need to be in writing! He said it on the TV and that is enough and recorded.
Kiumars 12:58, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

>> AucamanTalk; What the hell? "You" have been vandalizing Wikipedia not me. Block me i don't care but before that i need to know what part of my article was wrong or better say "You" didn't like? You obviously have no clue whatsoever about what is going on inside Iran or who is in charge of nuclear research. How many articles do i have to show you in which, clearly indicate the Real hands behind the nuclear project in Iran? Beside, what is said about Khamenei is pure propaganda (even a kid can understand that)

also it seems you don't care if fake Information is replaced with real one here in WikiPedia.

One more question and i know it will definitely make problems for me but i have to know, Does "Somebody" pay you to keep that specific article nice and clean? Just wondering. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dj skazi (talk • contribs) 07:40, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

Well, let's look at some of your edits:
  • This : Wells this is clear nonsense. Do you have proof for any of these claims?
  • This : Again, nonsense. If he had issued such a Fatwa we would know about it by now.
Also, you're supposed to sign your posts. Now only do you not sign them, you have removed your forced signiture once.
But it seems like you're a reasonable person. I encourage you to make good edits. See Wikipedia:sign your posts and Wikipedia:Civility. When adding new information, you need to provide evidence for you claims. And no, I did not revert your edits. See Wikipedia:Assume good faith. AucamanTalk 09:31, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

Update

This is the sentence under question:

"In recent years, there have been strong allegations by the United States and IAEA that he has been supporting a covert nuclear weapons development project in Iran."

No sources were provided, so I'm going to take this out. Most people don't accuse Khamenei as a person of trying to build nuclear weapons. I'm also taking off the NPOV tag since the discussion were not pursuit. AucamanTalk 06:27, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

Birthplace
Imam Khamenei (HA) was not born in East Azerbaijan. He was born in Mashhad according to his official biographies. I've heard he's Azeri, but not from offical sources.
"On 18th April 1939, a few months before the outbreak of World War II, the future leader of Islamic Iran was born in the holy city of Mashhad, Khorasan."
http://www.khamenei.ir/EN/Biography/index.jsp
رهبر عاليقدر حضرت آيت الله سيد على خامنه‌ای فرزند مرحوم حجت الاسلام والمسلمين حاج سيد جواد حسينى خامنه‌ای ، در روز 24 تيرماه 1318 برابر با 28 صفر 1358 قمرى در مشهد مقدس چشم به دنيا گشود
http://www.khamenei.ir/FA/Biography/index.jsp
—Preceding unsigned comment added by Ali Mahdi (talk • contribs) 01:39, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
Fixed. AucamanTalk 02:21, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

From the FBI and Lika Valentino aka Alla Khamenei, notation for information to someone who has placed a note into this section, not being rude to you writer/scholar, but the last time i was told with the FBI at 26 Federal Plaza, and as he is my father this Grand Ayatollah Ali Khamenei/Khameini, as a daughter i was told i am half White and Egyptian, hhm!? I do not know you figure it out, now writer, have a nice day.

He Represents Islam today

Ayatollah Khamenei is a leader of MOMININ durring the absence of IMAM MAHDI (May ALLAH fasten his return) May ALLAH grant him health. All who oppose the rule of Wilayate Faqih should better study authentic Islamic sources and not listen to propoganda on CNN. Most Iranian support Islamic system, the election of Ahmedinejad prooves it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.123.220.62 (talk • contribs) 10:43, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

  • The Islamic regime machine guns make things right? He is the leader by sheer force.--Patchouli 03:26, 29 July 2006 (UTC)


--Djiboutian President Ismail Omar Guelleh, http://www.khamenei.ir/EN/News/detail.jsp?id=20060905A

--Patchouli 01:27, 30 January 2007 (UTC)


I am an Iranian and I would to say that in Iran Most of the people hate this guy and they are escaping from the islam. He and some minority may call him a leader but in the eye of most of the iranians and others around the world he is a real dictator. A person who doesnt know anything from a religion. I don't support any Islamic system for my country nor do so many others. I hope time will show these people what they deserve. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 130.75.53.127 (talk) 13:18, August 21, 2007 (UTC)

Right hand

I removed the phrase "losing his right hand" here at [1] - in the picture, I can see both hands. Could someone clarify what this was intended to mean? --HappyCamper 00:01, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

His arm was actually badly damaged in the blast and the nerve system in his arm was destroyed. He cannot move his arm and hand. Kiumars 13:07, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

taking out the "ethnic azeri" part

i am taking out the part that says he was an ethnic azeri. although it is true, it is uneccessary, because at the end of the day he is iranian. mossadegh and others are also listed as iranians. their ethnic background means nothing, both in history and in reality. khamenei has pointed out many times that he is iranian and iranian only. if someone were to write my biography, i would also want it to be iranian, and not persian, because i am iranian and only iranian. i am not doing this for political reasons, i am doing this because i feel that his nationality is the only thing that matters and same goes for all other people in modern times.

for example, bill clinton's article doesnt say "ethnic englishman" and queen elizabeths article doesnt say "ethnic norman" etc....Iranian Patriot 02:06, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

I guess I see what you're saying. I'll move the info to "Early live". —Khoikhoi 02:32, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
Thank you, its much better now.Iranian Patriot 03:22, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
What is the point in these three references? Born to an Azeri[1] [2] [3] family…
Is there any correlation between him being born to Azeri parents and the Iran & the Rep of Azerbaijan relations? Are we politicizing something? Is that what wiki stands for? Kiumars 13:37, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

speclated?

not sure what is trying to be put across here

Although Khamenei wields the greatest religious and political power of anyone in Iran, he is speclated by the Assembly of Experts which is itself elected by the people.

--Xorkl000 14:47, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

I cannot even find “speclated” in the oxford dictionary! Is that an English word? Kiumars 13:24, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
"Speclated" was most likely intended to be "speculated", though it doesn't quite make sense in context. Accordingly, I replaced it with "elected." Thomas Facchine 01:15, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Anti-zionist allegations

Though I don't necessarily doubt what is claimed, there is no conclusive source behind the claim: "On the 2000 al-Quds Day Iranian supreme leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei called for the destruction of Israel, as Khomeini had done before.[1]:

The note leads to a CNN article on New Years' celebrations. For such serious claims against two high-ranking leaders, I would hope that someone could at least come up with a decent source. If I find one, I'll edit.

Thomas Facchine 01:20, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

--Patchouli 04:56, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Rewrote the paragraph and changed the references. I think it is more precise now. Bagande 15:44, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Translations of Qutb

Anyone out there with information on his translations of Sayyid Qutb into Farsi? Links to or excerpts of the translations? Thanks. Adam Holland 20:42, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Motanzeri

I removed the following line.

"Montazeri's words were so outrageous that even the reformist president of the time Khatami did not declare any response or attention to them."

Khatami's lack of response to Montazeri's comments might be relevant, but the claim that the words were "outrageous" is certainly not a neutral point of view... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.129.43.187 (talk • contribs) 05:25, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

What "gangland-style murders"?

I removed this paragraph fragment which followed the first sentence in the "Ali Khamenei and violation of Human rights" section:

"Presiding Judge Frithjof Kubsch said the men had no personal motive but were following orders. Without naming names, Kubsch said the gangland-style murders had been ordered by Iran's Committee for Special Operations, to which Iran's president and spiritual leader belonged. Prosecutors had contended that Iran's powerful spiritual leader, , and Iranian President Hashemi Rafsanjani had personally ordered the killings."

There is no previous mention of murders, men with motives, etc. The double comma was as you see it also. Perhaps if I were to search back I would find the original version of this paragraph which may have been significant and may have been shredded by someone who disagreed with it, but in any case it is unintelligible as it stands. Blanchette 03:06, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Encyclopedia format?

In the first paragraph: He is part of the United States target for Terrorists. He is now largely hated by his own people. I understand that many people feel this way, in Iran and throughout the world, and I'm not questioning anyone's beliefs/motives, but this is still an encyclopedia, and should therefore function and be worded as such. The sentences quoted above should be placed in areas of the article that deal with those issues, and sources need to be cited. I realize that this is largely common knowledge, but it is still an encyclopedia regardless. And no matter what the opinion/situation is, everything in an encyclopedia should be phrased with a neutral point of view, as encyclopedias function to state factual information. Just my $0.02. And just for the record, no, I do not support the Ayatollah regime.San Diego, California, USA 03:21, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Khamenei and Patchouli

User:Patchouli has an intense desire to include list of dictators in the article, while no consensus has been reached on that list with regard to Khamenei. Please participate in the discussions on that article with regard to Khamenei, before further editing this page. --Gerash77 21:15, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

He is ranked among the worst dictators, not just any dictator.--Patchouli 19:39, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
Based on the definition of dictator, Ali Khamenei is not a dictator. A better way to describe his position is: the leader of an oligarchy. He does not hold all power, which is why he cannot be defined as a dictator. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Bagehi (talk • contribs) 00:14, 20 February 2007 (UTC).
Patchouli is a hate monger and is trying to use wikipedia to bring the shah back to Iran. Idiot, I know.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 137.186.245.199 (talk • contribs)
No, I want to expose totalitarianism.--Patchouli 11:23, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
Even-though I have disagreed with you on many issues, I am starting to think you are right on this one. Khamenei isn't allowing Iran's democratically-elected President, Dr. Ahmadinejad to run his foreign policy as he desires. I think Khamenei is forcing inaction, conservatism and soft-approach onto the President and Majlis.--Gerash77 01:14, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
And khamenei is an azeri. the fact that it doesn't fit well with your "Persian dictator of in Iran" idealogy wouldn't make it wrong. it is "easy to verify", (unlike the so-called holo...) [2][3] [4] and your favorite "source": [5] --Gerash77 03:02, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
Khamenei Considers War a Virtue, and Stirs Up the Masses In Favor Of It.--Patchouli 09:16, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
That is an opinion statement by some random academic, not objective research. Anyone can editorialize. The Behnam 19:05, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
It is a valid conclusion formed on the basis of Khamenei's words and actions.--Patchouli 20:36, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
Well, you just sound soooo confident asserting your opinion that I am completey convinced that it should receive undue weight in this article, despite lacking any reasoning for its validity. Well, actually, I am not convinced, so you will have to persuade me and others that it is valid to include editorial conclusions as facts in the article. The Behnam 20:37, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
  • We should not dismiss every well-thought analysis as worthless opinion.--Patchouli 21:56, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
True. It can be used, but with proper weight and presentation. We aren't aimed at convincing the reader that the academic is correct or incorrect, just what his opinion is. This of course assumes he is significant enough to receive mention. I am just worried about weight. For example, adding that "nickname" thing to the Iran article was a serious undue weight issue, and was presented in a much too factual manner. Though I found it provocative, I will assume good faith this time. Let's avoid undue weight issues here too. The Behnam 01:49, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Well, nobody is allowed to even mention his name in Iranian news without taking approval from his office!!!!!!!! That is why there is no reference to this brutal person. I have seen and am sure millions of Iranians as well, that he does not take any opposite opinion and have zero tolerance policy. so we are left with no reference to say how many people has he killed or crime against humanity committed. but truth will come out as did after Saddam regime collapsed. Then we will know a lot about him and all in details. Including how many times a day his office employees edited and protected this page !!!!!

Threat against peaceful demonstrators

Maybe someone should put in somewhere that he runs the basij that shuts down any protests with violence --Fgol142.104.148.59 20:03, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

It is well documented at Iran: Dangerous Paramilitary Threat.--Patchouli 04:14, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

jumping the gun on death

There's a single blog report that he died, with no mainstream media confirmation. If there are no objections, I will remove this until there's a reliable source (no, blogs don't count). --Delirium 00:06, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Suspect you might find yourself needing to protect the page shortly, LGF have already posted the story and a link here. Richard Gadsden 00:12, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

I've been following the dead/not dead row with some bemusement - the page seems to change every time I refresh. Might it not make sense to include (a least for now) a compromise sentence such as: 'As of january 5 2007, rumours of Khamenei's death the previous day had not been verified'? I am told that he is in all probability dead - but that so far all the information coming out of Iran is from a single source, which though reliable is as yet uncorroborated. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wassmus (talk • contribs)

Yeah, I think if people can dig up some mainstream-media commentary on it that'd make sense. Has someone like the BBC or New York Times or somebody reported on the rumors? If so, we could cite them. --Delirium 07:50, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Hardly dead. He made a speech last Monday. I hope this matter is over for now. http://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/09/world/middleeast/09iran.html?_r=1&n=Top%2fReference%2fTimes%20Topics%2fPeople%2fK%2fKhamenei%2c%20Ali&oref=slogin

World’s 10 Worst Dictators

Patchouli, this is unencyclopedic trivia. Many magazines call Bush or Blair all sorts of things, but you don't see stuff like this in their aticles. Please don't re-add this info. Khoikhoi 03:51, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Parade gives reasons one of which is the same as that given by the Committee to Protect Journalists.--Patchouli 04:26, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Iran was facing a stark choice between democracy and dictatorship. The letter was posted on two Iranian websites, but was removed by the authorities after 24 hours.--Patchouli 04:47, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

"gives reasons one of which is the same as that given by the Committee to Protect Journalists."
That its self ^ means nothing you need reliable sources. Nareklm 04:48, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

World’s 10 Worst Dictators in 2007 --Patchouli 04:52, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Read also ISBN 0275982149 --Patchouli 04:54, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Look Patchouli this is not encyclopedic material. What makes a dictator? How do you accuse Khamenei of being a dictator? Iran has a democratically elected President & Parliament. They pass all the bills & laws of the country. How often does Khamenei play a part or influence this process? Show me proof that he's had a significant hand in implementing laws & bills, then we'll dicuss that "Parade" article. (Which just seems to be based on no evidence, just something to fill their magazine pages.)—Preceding unsigned comment added by 137.186.245.199 (talk • contribs)

Why the heck does Khamenei not go to a mosque? He is the military general of the country. He formulates the nuclear policy. He is behind the religious police. He is the source of problems in Iran like rising inflation, in Iraq with his Qods Force, in Lebanon with Hezbollah, in Palestinian terrorories with Hamas. He is the main reason mullah are in government. He is the one person with the power to end Islamic totalitarianism. He uses the nations revenues to build mosques endlessly and subsidize Islam.--Patchouli 06:57, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Spouse's name

Since there is no source for "Mrs. Khojasteh," I think it is better to put Mrs. Khamenei[6] back.--71.108.3.62 (talk) 11:46, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Muslim women do not take their husband's surname. "Mrs Khamene'i" is definitely wrong. ناهد/(Nåhed) speak! 03:18, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
I'm sticking in an alternative to Mrs Khojasteh, which seems weird because it's like she's married to a Mr Khojasteh, by using the Persian term banu. It's sort of like Mrs, but she's not really "Mrs" Khojasteh... ناهد/(Nåhed) speak! 04:37, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

How many children does he have?

According to the information on the left side of the page, it says that he has 6 children. But in 'Personal Life' it states that he has 7 children. So how many exactly? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Papongza (talk • contribs) 10:02, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

I can't find any sources for 7 children, and searches for the children's names just come up with mirrors of this page, so I have edited to use the cite for 6 children. Bigger digger (talk) 10:31, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

Where's

his infamous quote about wiping Israel from the pages of history? ArdClose (talk) 20:42, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

Sweetheart, I think that was someone else! --♥pashtun ismailiyya 23:01, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
No, that was him, Ahmadinejad paraphrased the Khamenei-ism that Isreal must "vanish from the pages of time" of something to that effect. In short, both men have said it —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lao1992 (talk • contribs) 17:15, 23 June 2009

Does Ali Khamenei speak Azeri?

Does Ali Khamenei speak Azeri? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.232.9.213 (talk) 14:45, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

Yes. --♥pashtun ismailiyya 07:50, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

Women's rights

In the "Interpretations of Islam" section, the article states that Khamenei has supported women's rights. However, the citation is to a dead link. If a citation is not provided, I will remove the statement because the sentence immediately preceding it seems to contradict it. Tayl1257 (talk) 13:33, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

Azeris are Turks

Here is Hossein Shariatmadari who says, "The Supreme Leader [Ayatollah Ali Khamenei] is a Turk, he's Azeri."[7]

This may be why George W. Bush and many American officials don't mention his name. Khamenei name is generally a taboo; they can't say he is a Persian dictator oppressing ethnic minorities in Iran. I won't add my last statement to the article because then others might accuse me of doing original research.

Khamenei is an Arab—as a sayyid—and probably a descendent of the Seljuqs.--71.118.43.47 (talk) 02:42, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Observation: Kurds are Persians, but if you refer to a Kurd as "a Persian", it's inaccurate. Sometimes the local ethnicity trumps the larger one. In this article it has caused confusion - I can personally attest to people who were misled by the statement that he was Turkish and thought he was a Turkish citizen. Given the established nature of the Iranian Azeri community, we should respect consensus and leave it listed as such.ناهد/(Nåhed) speak! 03:10, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
What do say about Turkic peoples?--71.118.43.47 (talk) 03:09, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
The same issue comes up all the time on Wikipedia. You could list everyone who is a Kurd as an Iranian, but all you'd get would be angry people, and it wouldn't make you right. Azeris are Turkish - like French people are Europeans and and Chinese people are Asian. ناهد/(Nåhed) speak! 03:14, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
Like Africans are American. --♥pashtun ismailiyya 20:30, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

Azeris are not ethnically Turks actually. It doesn't take a genius to realize that they have nothing in common with Turks, apart from their language. Ethnically they are more similar to other ethnic groups in Iran, especially the Iranian Kurds (not the Iraqi or Turkish Kurds though) and the Persians. On top of that, their nationality is Iranian. Azeris see themselves as Iranians first and foremost, and then Azeri second. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.194.5.148 (talk) 18:34, 3 February 2009 (UTC) I think there is a strong desire in the Republic of Turkey to claim as many people as Turkish as they can. After the fall of the Caliph in Baghdad until 1258 then restarted in 1517 by the Turkish Sultan and to be such must be from the same tribe as Mohammed (PBUH) the Quraysh tribe but that aint no Turkish tribe so either No Caliphate or No Linage of Turkish origin . Iran and Others do the same with Sayyid and claim to be one ethnicity and also decedent of Mohammed (PBUH)an Arab Hezzbolah claims Khamenei is ARAB for this very reason. That girl on the Iranian Peoples page is hot!---- Nate Riley 16:55, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

Unsourced info

I have removed the unsourced line "It is famous that he was initially a very unnoticable clergy who had to sell prayers and read Qur'an for money to survive." Please be aware that according to Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons#Reliable_sources a line like this should be removed forthwith and not reposted unless it is backed up by reliable sources. Debresser (talk) 19:28, 15 June 2009 (UTC) I read that and it wasnt NPOV.Talk to Magibon 14:27, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

Mykonos assassinations

"On 10 April 1997 , Berlin's highest criminal court issued an international arrest warrant, and with knowledge Ali Khamenei because ordered attack on the Mykonos restaurant assassinations"

This sentence is incoherent and makes no sense. Dumaka (talk) 20:31, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

So you'll be pleased to see I've re-written it! Bigger digger (talk) 09:48, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

The sentence makes perfect sense to anyone who speaks English, it does not however point to any reference. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cardinal700 (talk • contribs) 08:18, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Sunni Mosque in Tehran

This section states that Asia Times reported that a Sunni mosque has not been built in Tehran because of opposition from Khamenei. However, the article actually merely quotes a Tehrani grocer who says that Khameini did not authorize the building of the mosque. The Asia Times is not stating that it verified or endorses the claim, nor does it speak of affirmative opposition from Khamenei (e.g., the Pres. may not have sought authorization). I therefore do not feel that the sentence as currently written reflects the content of the Asia Times article, and I will remove it in a few days unless someone reasonably objects. Tayl1257 (talk) 16:23, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

I agree with you. This has been added to several articles, just because it is published in Asia time. It is irrelevant.--Parvazbato59 (talk) 17:39, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
That the capital of Tehran and a metropolitan area of 14 some million does not have one sunni mosque is certainly significant.
It is true that the article quotes a resident of tehran rather than a government official, but note that the text qualifies the statement:
Khamenei is reported to oppose the building of a Sunni mosque in Iran's capital, Tehran. According to the Asia Times newspaper, reformist former president Mohammad Khatami gave Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei's opposition as the reason he (Khatami) had not followed through on his campaign promise to allow the building of a Sunni mosque in Tehran.
I will add "according to a Tehran resident quoted by the Asia Times newspaper"
From the article: "When you meet Iranian officials in Tehran, ask them why they do not allow a Sunni mosque in Tehran, despite a good number of Sunnis living there? During the election campaign, President Mohammad Khatami had pledged to allow a Sunni mosque in Tehran. This was nothing but election sloganeering. After he won the elections, he was reminded of his promise but he said that the [Supreme] Leader [Ayatollah Ali] Khamenei had not agreed to the proposal." --BoogaLouie (talk) 20:31, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
I think BoogaLouie's alteration is good. Tayl1257 (talk) 04:28, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

God bless you, BoogaLouie!THISISME! 15:29, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Pronunciation

Could someone please check the pronunciation of this name? As currently written, the stress is on the last syllable of each name: [ʔæˈli hosejˈni xɒmeneˈʔi]. This would be pronounced aLI hoseyNI khāmene’I. (In IPA, the stress mark goes BEFORE the stressed syllable.) This looks very doubtful to me, but I do not know the correct pronunciation. It seems more likely that the correct pronunciation might be [ˈʔæli hoˈsejni xɒmeˈneʔi] (Ali hoSEYni khāmeNE’i). Could someone who knows please check this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Seberle (talk • contribs) 15:32, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

The pronunciation is correct. In Persian/Farsi, almost all words are stressed on the final syllable. Languagehat (talk) 14:35, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

==

This is interesting. Thank you. It would seem the TV reports I am listening to are all pronouncing his name incorrectly.--seberle (talk) 21:45, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
Yes, I don't know why announcers have no problem stressing French names correctly but don't seem to be able to do so with Persian. Languagehat (talk) 21:22, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

Iranian Judiciary system

What source did this come from? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.111.230.152 (talk) 21:16, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Neutrality dispute (POV)

There's a POV (see WP:NPOV) tag dated June 2009 on this article. What parts of the article does the tagger (or anybody else) have an issue with? Has everything been resolved? Thundermaker (talk) 13:47, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

Reports of Khamenei's death

It is reported today (Oct. 14) that Ali Khamenei has died. Now, I have no experience with the sources, but I think it is worth noting here in case more mainstream sources pick up this story.

Yes, there have been false reports in the past, so I am being careful not to state his death as fact.

1. I first heard it at antimullah.com. Story is here: "KHAMENEI REPORTEDLY DEAD!" http://noiri.blogspot.com/2009/10/khamenei-reportedly-dead.html

2. Another source dated Oct. 14 states: "Rumors that Iran’s Supreme Leader, Ali Khamenei, has died began circulating yesterday in Tehran’s bazaar. Today, Iranian bloggers report an “abnormal atmosphere in the city” and increased presence of plainclothes agents in the capital."

The story is here: "Immortal Khamenei?" http://blog.american.com/?p=6148

3. Another source states that he is in a coma:

"IRAN: BLOGS STIRRING, "AYATOLLAH KHAMENEI IS IN COMA" http://www.agi.it/world/news/200910142114-cro-ren0072-iran_blogs_stirring_ayatollah_khamenei_is_in_coma

4. Early story, dated Oct. 13 on PajamasMedia.com:

"Khamenei Said to be in Coma" http://pajamasmedia.com/michaelledeen/2009/10/13/khamenei-said-to-be-in-coma/

paul klenk talk 22:37, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

There seems to be ample evidence that there are rumors of his death. Does that justify adding an "Unconfirmed death report" section? Thundermaker (talk) 23:57, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
I would think so. paul klenk talk 00:05, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
ABC News and its Chief Washington Correspondent George Stephanopoulos have mentioned this rumor: http://blogs.abcnews.com/george/2009/10/khamenei-in-coma.html paul klenk talk 00:09, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
Excellent handling of the rumors, Thundermaker. paul klenk talk 00:29, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

I just want to add: It's important that we do cover this rumor on the page -- as a rumor, because if we don't mention it, people who hear the rumor in other places will come here and insert it as fact. Thundermaker (talk) 02:12, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

I've added {{unconfirmed}} to the article to advise readers that the sources regarding Khamenei's supposed coma or near death situation are unconfirmed at present. I've also posted at WP:ANI advising that we may wish to preemptively protect the article. Dr. Cash (talk) 04:14, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

We should definitely keep this out of the article until there is something more substantial. All the sources for this are blogs, except the AGI item which is based on those blogs. Exceptional claims require exceptional sources, and this is very weakly sourced so far. Very high probability of a hoax or baseless rumours. Offliner (talk) 05:31, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
Well, since Realite EU(http://www.realite-eu.org/site/c.9dJBLLNkGiF/b.2267931/k.BD8D/Home.htm), a highly regarded thinktank and agency, reported the high credibility of the rumors, I've added it to the article, although still stating that the origin is a rumor.
The Telegraph blog itself says: "...It is unconfirmed and turns out to be based on questionable sources... The source cited is the highly partial website AntiMullah." We really need to keep this material out of the article per WP:REDFLAG. Offliner (talk) 11:08, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
I'm sorry, but your claim to objectivism is incorrect. It is correct to state that there is a very popular rumor (surely if it contains some credibility according to sources) as long as it is reported as 'rumor' and not as 'fact'. With the philosophy of keeping wikipedia up to date and unbiased, I do not see how this addition will cause any harm to this article's integrity. I'm putting it back on and hope you agree.

Adding to this, I now see that not only the Telegraph, but Pravda, Haaretz, Jerusalem Post, IsraelNationalNews, Panorama, The North Star National and many others have all reported on it. Although exceptional, I truly do not see the hesitation to spread as a fact that a wide rumor is being purported in the mass media.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.224.255.103 (talk) 11:26, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

Article protected

Without commenting on the truth or otherwise of these rumours, we require better sources than blogs to be provided for such information before it goes into the article. I've temporarily protected the article to slow down the speculative IP edits; please look at our biographical articles policy and our reliable sources policy for guidance as to the sort of verification that is suitable. Thank you. EyeSerenetalk 12:34, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

Also, it is unacceptable to have a BLP tagged with the {{unconfirmed}} template. If the information is mere rumour and/or speculative remove it at once, instead of just adding a template saying that our article shouldn't be trusted! Abecedare (talk) 13:13, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

A rumor can in itself be an important event. Does anyone doubt that there are widespread rumors about his death? Ledeen says: According to a bulletin from the Greens (Moussavi/Karroubi et al), there are widespread rumors in the Tehran Bazaar that Khamenei has died. The Greens say they cannot confirm it, but that there is an “abnormal atmosphere” in the streets, which almost certainly means there are more security people than usual. The bazaar will apparently be closed tomorrow, and perhaps Friday as well, pending developments. He doesn't give a link to that bulletin, but wouldn't that be a more reliable source (for the fact that there are widespread rumors in Iran) than blogs?--87.162.24.87 (talk) 14:04, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

No mainstream news sources have reported about the rumours, meaning that they have not judged them as newsworthy. And neither should we, since Wikipedia's standards are not lower than mainstream sources'. Offliner (talk) 14:12, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
To add:
  • Wikipedia is not a news publication and we don't need to report hourly/daily/weekly rumors. A rumor may be a notable news item but that that does not make it a notable encyclopedic content with respect to Khamenei.
  • Per WP:REDFLAG and WP:BLP we are required to be particularly careful when dealing with living subjects and exceptional claims. As long as a credible report doesn't report that "Khamenei is believed/confirmed" (not rumored) to be ill, in coma, or deceased, we should not add it to the article.
Wikipedia has been burnt in the past by jumping the gun; lets not become part of the story. Abecedare (talk) 14:22, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
Abecedare, you have some very valid points, I still think this might be an exceptional case. But before I make that argument, I would like to educate myself about past events where Wiki editors jumped the gun. Can you give me a hint on where to look? Thundermaker (talk) 23:43, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
See this and this for some related examples. Also read Wikipedia biography controversy for the incident that was the prime motivation for the eventual formulation of the WP:BLP policy. It's only fair that I also point to Kidnapping of David Rohde, where wikipedia kept out thinly sourced news of the kidnapping that turned out to be true. Abecedare (talk) 03:44, 16 October 2009 (UTC)
An example of how the media covers "Death by Wikipedia" even if it lasts only a few minutes: [8]. Abecedare (talk) 03:46, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

Incidentally the Khamenei death/coma rumour, and its original source, seem increasingly dubious. See this Guardian column. This and the 2007 incident may be worth adding at the Michael Ledeen article, but only one the dust settles and we are reasonably sure of all the facts (as well as we can). Abecedare (talk) 03:52, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

Opium Use

I don't see anything pertaining to Khamenei's opium use. Can someone add that ASAP!? Nostalgia of Iran (talk) 17:27, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

Vandalism

Someone is vandalizing the name. I'm newbie and i can't speak English correctly too. Mhosayn (talk) 12:59, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for removing the vandalism. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 13:28, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

It's Vandalized again99.247.60.143 (talk) 18:03, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

Makhmalbaf's "Secrets of Khamenei's Life"

The filmmaker Mohsen Makhmalbaf, who became something of a Green Movement spokesman in exile, has written an essay[9] (English translations here[10]) compiling many alleged details of Khamenei's life and personal routine, passed to him by sources in Iran. I think some of this material belongs in the article, though of course it would need to be appropriately dubified (e.g. "It is alleged that" or "Mohsen Makhmalbaf alleges that") until such time as it can be independently verified or refuted. Maybe the essay even warrants its own brief subsection, in order to sum up the picture it presents. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mporter (talk • contribs) 05:32, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

Soviet Peoples' Friendship University alumni?

RUDN (Peoples' Friendship University) page claims so. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Aadieu (talk • contribs) 21:16, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

Sex segregationist activist

On the basis of his opposition that oppose "mixing of men and women"[11], Khamenei should be included in the sex segregation category.--478jjjz (talk) 17:00, 12 March 2010 (UTC)

Mentioning that he opposes gender mixing in the article is fine. That doesn't mean it belongs in the categories. For an individual to be in that category, the individual should be well known for advocating it. That article includes one quote about it; it doesn't say that he is an "activist." OhNoitsJamie Talk 17:10, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
Please be serious. The guy is a supporter of sex segregation; this is incontrovertible.[12].--478jjjz (talk) 17:17, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
I'm not disputing that. There's a big difference between "supporter" and "activist." Furthermore, the quote in the article you provided says "unrestrained mixing of men and women," and says nothing further on the topic. OhNoitsJamie Talk 17:27, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
Khamenei is responsible for continuing gender segregation for the entire population of Iran (74M, more than 1% of the world's people). In that context, he is possibly the most notable world leader who supports it, and would belong in the category because of that. Thundermaker (talk) 17:33, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
Iran is more gender-segregated than Saudi Arabia? I find that difficult to believe. Also, WP:CATEGORY states: It should be clear from verifiable information in the article why it was placed in each of its categories. There is no mention of his stance on gender-mixing in the article. The source mentioned earlier in this discussion used the phrase "unrestrained mixing," which is not exactly a hardcore stance. There's no mention in the Iran article about this, either. An article about women's rights in Iran notes that women are not treated equally by law, but does not mention gender mixing either. OhNoitsJamie Talk 17:47, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
Addendum: just found the Sex segregation in Iran article (which curiously does not seem to have any incoming links from Iran). Note that the second sentence of that article reads "Traditionally, sex segregation has always been a part of Iranian culture. " Why single out leaders who support a long-standing cultural tradition, especially if that leader is not strongly-associated (i.e., an "activist") with that position? OhNoitsJamie Talk 18:08, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
Whether or not Khamenei supports gender segregation because it is a cultural tradition is non sequitur.--478jjjz (talk) 18:46, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
It's relevant because a leader in a country supporting a longstanding cultural norm is not particularly noteworthy. You have not proven that he is an activist or that he's notable for that position. OhNoitsJamie Talk 18:50, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
You want to dispute why he is a gender segregationist.
It is not entirely cultural; it is also a legal issue like the Salic law.--478jjjz (talk) 19:00, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
The main point here is that there's no evidence that he is an activist or is particularly notable for his position on that. You're saying that given a political leader, we should add category tags for every single position they hold? That would pollute the categories with too many tangential links. OhNoitsJamie Talk 19:28, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
Slight change of opinion on my part -- Iran and Saudi Arabia should both be in the category. But the leaders, unless they made a notable change in their nation's policy, should not. Thundermaker (talk) 23:32, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

Birthday

He is on the list of births for April 18, but the article states his birthday as 17 July. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.195.33.70 (talk) 04:31, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

NPOV "is a politician as the figurehead of the conservative establishment in Iran"

The word "figurehead" is both misleading and not neutral.

figurehead, def. 2 (Merriam Webster) a head or chief in name only

The term is misleading because it suggests that the person has a small amount of political influence. A cursory understanding of the Iranian political system reveals that the Supreme Leader has numerous powers, any one of which would be sufficient to make the term "figurehead" inappropriate.

In particular, Guardian_Council states that 6 of the 12 members of the Guardian Council are appointed by the Supreme Leader. Given the significant power of the Guardian Council, the Supreme Leader would not be a figurehead, even if he had no other powers or duties (which is not the case).

I have read that in some ways, the Supreme Leader of Iran has more power than the President of Iran. For example, the Supreme Leader does not stand for election, and his office is durable.

As a reasonable analogy, one might compare the Iranian Supreme Leader with the United States Chief Justice of the Supreme Court. The Iranian Supreme Leader clearly has more power than the American Chief Justice, ...

This is egregiously both not NPOV and not accurate.

Expo1892 (talk) 04:03, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

Good point.
BBC: He is widely regarded as the figurehead of the country's conservative establishment and has been described as one of the three defining influences of the revolution.
The BBC reference which uses "figurehead" seems to contradict itself in the same sentence, unless "establishment" and "revolution" refer to different things. The Iranian government refers to itself as "the revolution" a lot, so I hope BBC wouldn't confuse the issue.
I think that Constitutionally, the Supreme Leader is more powerful than the President because he has the power to dismiss the President.
I also take issue with the word "conservative". He's more liberal than Khomeni was. I would substitute "theocratic" but without a supporting ref it would be WP:OR.
How would you re-write it? Thundermaker (talk) 12:31, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

Insulting the Supreme Leader

Ali Khamenei is the Supreme Leader of Iran. Should dissidents who are jailed for "insulting the Supreme Leader" be mentioned on this page, simply because their crime involved statements about Khamenei? We need to reach a consensus to avoid an edit war over Arash Sigarch. Thundermaker (talk) 16:25, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

Mohammad Nourizad

Nourizad was arrested, lashed, and jailed after writing and publishing a letter to Khamenei criticizing his handling of the 2009 elections. The official charges were "spreading propaganda against the clerical establishment and insulting the country's leaders" according to AP. Does that bear mention in this article? Thundermaker (talk) 15:45, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

Naming style

One user keeps adding the latin Azeri version of this guy's name to the introduction. This figure is an Iranian figure and the official language is Persian and therefore his introduction is based on the official language. Additionally the Iranian Azeris, are not the same as the newly created previously USSR included nation of Azerbaijan. The author Талех insists on writing this figure's name in the version that is essentially the Azerbaijani (the country and not the Iranian Azerbaijani) fashion, which is not appropriate as this is an article regarding the country of Iran and one of its figures who did not even live in provinces of Azerbaijan but is alleged to be "half" of that ethnicity. I also believe that POV is at play here.

Additionally, this figure is not even fully Azerbaijani and to cite ONLY his Azeri pronunciation in a foreign dialect and version (latin vs. the utilized perso-arabic) is POV and inappropriate. There is really NO NEED in English wikipedia to litter the article with Nationalistically motivated jargon version of a figure's name. All a user has to do is click on the other language page versions and read the article in German, French, Turkish, etc. to see how their name would look. That being said I have reverted the change made by User Талех and have left a message on his page explaining it. Dr. Persi (talk) 22:59, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

Do not click on the individual. I repeat one last time. The template is placed native languages​​, rather than public. I suggest you put down Azeri Persian-Arabic script and Azeri Latin. I would like to add that the Azeris of Azerbaijan, Iran, Dagestan and Georgia, one nation with one language, rather than different groups of people. Perso-Arabic for Caucasian Azerbaijanis [13][14][15][16][17][18][19][20][21][22][23][24] What do you think about this? Талех (talk) 16:05, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

Frankly, I think you are missing the point. It is not about his ethnicity. Also your English makes little sense. "Do not click on individual?" The point made is that his name should be in Perso-Arabic script if at all, and that your addition is a foreign nation's lettering. I am going to revert your change, but I give up as it seems you are unable to understand the piont. Besides, just because you are giving me articles with links to people who are from Nation of Azerbaijan does not mean it is the same as being from Province of Azerbaijan. You are confusing the two, it seems! Dr. Persi (talk) 02:54, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

I do not want to mix the Azeri nation and the region of Azerbaijan in Iran. In the original name is added to the name in the native language of the person. Ali Khamenei, speaks two languages ​​as a native. I put the Azeri Persian-Arabic script first, and the Latin second. You may not agree with me. I gave the example that the Azeris of Azerbaijan are also used azerbaydzhaskaya Persian-Arabic script, although there Azeri Latin. Талех (talk) 07:20, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

He is Persian

According to sources and content of article, he is not a half-Azerbaijani.His paternal ancestors were immigrants from Tafresh to Tabriz.Tafresh is a Persian city.His mother is a Persan from Yazd.Immigration does not change origin of a person.He is fully a Persian ethnic.Categry:Iranian people of Azerbaijani descent is completely wrong.Categry:Iranian people of Persian descent is true.--Orartu (talk) 11:24, 10 October 2011 (UTC)


Wikipedia does not work with WP:OR.. assuming his 5th generation is from Ashtiyan, then you would have to prove that every Azeri is also not an immigrant. For example Shahriyar is a Seyyed (meaning his ancestry goes back to Hejaz) but he is an Iranian-Azeri. How about Kasravi? Pishevari (he is a Seyyed). How about Rasulzadeh (he is a Seyyed too). Consequently, if his father for several generations lived in the province, and acquired the language as a native, then that makes the difference. Else DNA-wise, one cannot prove lineage of every Azeri goes back to Oghuz Turks. Furthermore, the stuff with Khamenei being half-Azeri is well sourced. --Khodabandeh14 (talk) 11:47, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

There is not any pure nation in world,e.g.Persian people of Iran are composed of different ethnics and races.There are enough sources for putting this article in Category:Iranian people of Persian descent too.Then, according to your arguments, members of Pahlavi family could not be considered as Azerbaijanis or even Mazandaranis.Because they acquired the Persian language as a native.--Orartu (talk) 15:33, 10 October 2011 (UTC)
Do you have any sources to prove that he is an ethnic Persian ?
  • According to John Murphy, both his parents were Azeri (or Azerbaijanis) (John Murphy, Ali Khamenei, Infobase Publishing, 2007, p. 62.)
  • According to Encyclopedia of the Peoples of Africa and the Middle East: L to Z, Ali Khamenei, an ethnic Azeri (Jamie Stokes, Encyclopedia of the Peoples of Africa and the Middle East: L to Z, p. 79.
  • Ayatollah Ali Khamenei born to an Azeri family in Mashhad (Iran Country Study Guide (p. 179.)
  • Ayatollah Ali Khamenei is of Azeri descent (Keith Crane, Rollie Lal, Jeffrey Martini, Iran's political, demographic, and economic vulnerabilities, p. 51.)

Takabeg (talk) 12:55, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

These sites which are mentioned in article too.
  • [www.irdc.ir/fa/content/1024+4734/default.aspx]
  • [www.shia-online.ir/article.asp?id=17262&cat=1 ]

These sites emphasize, his ancestors are originally from Tafresh, which is a Persian city--Orartu (talk) 14:24, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

Khamenei is fluent in Azeri [25] [26] [27]. Does not every Persian may fluent Azerbaijani language. Талех (talk) 12:57, 11 October 2011 (UTC)
He knows Azerbaijani language, because he has lived many years in Tabriz, an Azerbaijani city.--Orartu (talk) 05:10, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

he was born is mashhad his father was born in najaf he is originally from tafresh can we say that he is azeri? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.56.72.196 (talk) 13:57, 15 October 2011 (UTC)

Khamenei's Personal Wealth: 36 Billion Dollars

Could someone edit the page to include his wealth? Please also include the attempts to remove the majority of the funds from the country to Syria by way of Turkey, and the confiscation of the cash by Turkey.

Recent source from CNN: http://www.ireport.com/docs/DOC-377512 == —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kliptic (talk • contribs) 01:37, 4 January 2010 (UTC)


Dictators for life don't HAVE personal wealth, they by definition sort of own the entire country. Sure, there is the occasional kleptocrat who rides into office to drain a country dry and then run for the hills, but Khamenei shows no indication of planning to ever leave, so the point is kind of moot. Aadieu (talk) 21:12, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

This is not a "source from CNN." It is a place where people can and do post anything, no matter how ridiculous. It is, in turn, up to CNN to confirm and publish or to ignore. CNN has ignored this report. QLineOrientalist (talk) 15:34, 13 November 2011 (UTC)

Rafsanjani

His election was largely influenced by Ayatollah Akbar Hashemi Rafsanjani [28]

This text has been repeatedly added to the lead. [29] [30] [31] [32] Its addition seems suspicious. The notion is not discussed elsewhere in the article. The sentence is usually added without source or with sources that can't be used on Wiki. This is the first source that might qualify, except the source is not in English. What is the significance of this sentence, and is it properly supported by the referenced source? If it is OK, then add it back, but let's not link Rafsanjani twice in successive sentences. Gimmetrow 20:23, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

I don't think it belongs in the lead, maybe not in the article at all. The sentence basically amounts to speculation about past political forces. If the supporting quotes in the BBC article (which I can't read either) came from Rafsanjani or Khamenei, perhaps those should be included in the Appointment as Supreme Leader section, which doesn't currently exist (the Appointment as Supreme Leader & disputed title of "Grand Ayatollah" section is 100% about the title, 0% about the appointment except how it relates to the title, probably should be split). Thundermaker (talk) 14:50, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

This is a true statement and is generally perceived as uncontroversial. QLineOrientalist (talk) 15:51, 13 November 2011 (UTC)

Is Khamenei a Twelver?

An IP editor recently asserted that Khamenei is a Twelver. It seems likely, since most Iranians are Shiites and most Shiites are Twelvers. But is there a reference (preferably from the Ayatollah himself), or is this a conclusion someone has drawn from his actions? It's also plausible that as a leader he maintains a position of ambiguity.

Is this issue controversial? If so, we need to remove the claim per WP:BLP until someone finds a reference. Thundermaker (talk) 14:18, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

I don't know why this issue is even being discussed. It is inconceivable that the spiritual leader of the Islamic Republic would be anything but a Twelver. QLineOrientalist (talk) 15:53, 13 November 2011 (UTC)

"Considered by many to be the worst living dictator"

This sentence in the opening paragraph is WP:NPOV and weasel words to add. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.96.203.99 (talk) 09:38, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

Agree. Completely non-neutral POV. Demolishes any illusions of neutrality with stuff like that on there. Even Hitler's page has nothing on the top saying "Hitler Sucks", why do we have a defamatory line about a living person on here? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.245.19.12 (talk) 05:50, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

Student at Patrice Lumumba University in Moscow

I find it surprising that this article makes no mention of Khamenei's time as a young student in the Soviet Union.

See: [33] [34]

I'm unable presently to find mention of the exact years of his studies which I think would be appropriate to add to this article. Perhaps someone knows this information? Adlerschloß (talk) 04:23, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

It's a little suspicious that the article uses the same wording as the book -- "studied as a youth". The fact was also added to Patrice Lumumba University last month, without a supporting reference. I found a discussion forum where somebody claims Khamenei and other participants of the 1979 revolution studied there. That leaves me wondering who sent them, surely not the Shah?
It seems a little contentious, no mention of it on his official bio. Thundermaker (talk) 11:43, 15 June 2010 (UTC)
A google search shows many sources, including published books, making the same claim. The earliest I can find through a casual search is from 1999:
"Iran's current ruler, the Ayatollah Ali Khamenei is, like several other top officials of the Islamic Republic, a graduate of the Soviet Patrice Lumumba University in Moscow." [35] Enough credible sources make the claim that I can't imagine it could have been merely a mistake made once that was endlessly repeated, but the lack of specific details and lack of corroboration from Khamenei's official biography (indeed, the timeline given there seems to in fact leave no time at all during his youth that could have been spent in Moscow, if we take that information at face value) is very strange.
One can at least speculate that the leader of a government that describes itself in Islamic terms (but increasingly finds the actual clergy class themselves in opposition, with attacks on the regime sometimes framed in theological terms) might for domestic reasons not be keen to play up any connection to atheistic Marxism -- this despite Iran's very close ties since the Revolution with communist Cuba, and increasingly solidified alliance with socialist Venezuela.
Given the variety of sources that make this claim and the overall significance of this attendance if it is true, perhaps the article should mention in an appropriate section, with citations, something along the lines of: "Many sources state that Khamenei was enrolled as a student at Patrice Lumumba University in Moscow; however, his official biography makes no mention of this"?
This is all very mysterious but that's not necessarily surprising (I recall studying Ruhollah Khomeini in the past and finding that many of the most basic facts on his past and his family were heavily disputed with multiple competing claims). Adlerschloß (talk) 13:39, 15 June 2010 (UTC)
The bio says he finished intermediate school in an "unprecedented" 5.5 years, then it picks up in 1957 when he's 18. If he started intermediate school at 9-10 that would leave enough time afterward to go to University and graduate at 18. This might be a good time to look at a primary source -- the school itself -- for corroboration. Graduation records for 1956-58. Unfortunately I don't speak Russian. (The "Literary scholarship" section here makes no mention of Khamenei speaking it either, which he would if he lived in Moscow for 4 years.)
I did the google search and got a lot of blog pages. But when I limit the search to books, I see many of them make the same claim. If you can cite multiple, notable, non-fringe books I'm OK with the "many sources" wording. Thundermaker (talk) 16:00, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

A Russia Today youtube report of February 2010 People's Friendship University of Russia turns 50 mentions he's a graduate at 1:40 - but they've actually edited out the mention of him on the corresponding page Report. This has been going around the blogs the last few weeks. At Khamenei's secret Russian Life someone's found a 1989 English article in the "Observer Reporter" mentioning it. Another commenter cites the 2009 fabrication on his brother Hadi Khamenei's wikipedia page (corrected by me today) that Hadi studied in Baku as backup evidence. I think what happened in the 12 June 1989 "Observer Reporter" article was that someone picked up the AP 6 June 1989 article by Ed Blanche about people with this para:

_Musavi Khoeiniha: The prosecutor-general, 47, is anti-Western and known as the red mullah because he studied at Patrice Lumumba University in Moscow and Leipzig University in East Germany.

and just got confused somehow.

A Google books search search shows that the earliest reference is in Italian in 1983: "Ali Khamenei: ha compiuto parte dei suoi studi all'università Patrice Lumumba di Mosca e poi" in "L'Europeo: settimanale politico d'attualità: Volume 39" with extra references in German in 1983 and 1985. "The bear and the lion" by Martin Sicker in 1988 says "Khoeiniha ... is rumored to have attended Patrice Lumumba University", and "Lingua Franca" in 1992 also refers to Khoeiniha going there - they called him the "Red Mullah" (since 1983 - "Mideast file: Volume 2, Issue 1") or "Moscow's Man". By 1993, Yossef Bodansky in "Target America & the West: terrorism today" (p39) was also writing that Kho'iniha was a graduate of Patrice Lumumba (referring to a 1984 meeting, but no citation given).

By the look of it, I think either Khoeiniha went there or was rumoured to have gone there (according to a 1985 near east report he actually was in Baku and Caucasia from 1952 to 1960) and somewhere along the line someone confused him with Khamenei, and then the mistake got endlessly repeated. Just like, for example, people claiming that Javad Larijani had a Ph.D. from Berkeley - total crap but not many people actually checked. It's obvious to me that if it were true, googling "site:rudn.ru Хаменеи" would have turned up some articles about it. Cancerward (talk) 11:03, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

@Adlerschloß So, there's no evidance and everyone was wrong? Alimokhtary18 (talk) 13:15, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

Persecution of Bahá'ís

An IP editor recently added a paragraph about Khamenei's alleged secret memo ordering discrimination against Bahá'ís. The two references given are:

  • a link to another Wikipedia article, Persecution of Bahá'ís, which itself lacks a credible source for the secret memo claim.

Are there any mainstream sources for this claim? If not, I'm inclined to remove the entire paragraph. I found a UPI article which quotes Heydar Moslehi (who owes his position to Khamemei) rambling about a "Bahá'í-Zionist conspiracy", but nothing directly from Khamenei. I don't think that is strong enough for inclusion in this WP:BLP. Does anybody else have thoughts, or more information from reliable sources? Thundermaker (talk) 02:37, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

I'm sorry this has gone unanswered for this long! While a Baha'i source, the United Nations Office of the Baha'i International Community ran this article, stating that it was Prof. Reynaldo Galindo Pohl, the United Nations Commission on Human Rights' Special Representative on Iran, who exposed the document in question, which should mean that there are official records or minutes available on the subject (though I am at a loss as to where to obtain them). I've seen other sources make the same statement, but they typically seem to be using verbatim or nearly so the terms of the BIC statements on the subject. Peter Deer (talk) 11:48, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

Assassination attempt

  • For a President of a nation to be the victim of an assassination attempt, that leaves him partially paralyzed, seems worthy to merit its own section. Thanks. Ism schism (talk) 12:48, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
Seems to me it merits both a section and its own main article, but that's really a matter of having verifiable sources on the subject to make such a section/article from. If you have some in mind, I'd be glad to help. Peter Deer (talk)

Nuclear Fatwa

Okay so my edit correcting an unsourced claim about the existence of a fatwa on nuclear weapons was undone for being unsourced. Is it not the obligation of the original claim (that such a fatwa exists) to source itself? The cited reference (104) is to an editorial which references the alleged fatwa but provides no sourcing, and my research has shown no verifiable record of this fatwa; only of the original Iranian statement (from IAEA meeting) claiming its existence and upon which the editorial's claim is certainly made. Absent proof of its existence, why does this at least not deserve qualifying language?

Furthermore, the source cited for Iran's IAEA statement makes no mention of it and would therefore be an invalid source. Instead, it should be changed to [36]. --Memarshall (talk) 02:04, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

I don't understand why this nuclear fatwa story is allowed onto Wikipedia. The author of the article used as a citation, Dr. Afrasiabi, is a campaigner for the current regime and as such cannot be considered a reliable source. Nor is a statement by the Non-Alligned Movement an indication of such as fatwa's existence. What is true is that Hojjatoleslam Khamenei has said in more than one speech that the production of nuclear weapons is wrong and that they should be eliminated. (See the Leader's webpage in English: http://english.khamenei.ir//index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1442&Itemid=13) But this does not rise to the level of a fatwa. Rather, it reflects the political position of the Islamic Republic and as such is mutable. QLineOrientalist (talk) 15:50, 13 November 2011 (UTC)

Recent Statement

There was recently included in the Nuclear Fatwa section a portion saying: "However, Khamenei has justfied the possession of nuclear weapons as a mean of deterrence, claiming that having stronger weapons and a better equipped army creates fear and terror in the heart of the enemy"

Could someone verify the citation on this? It's apparently in farsi and I'm unfamiliar with the source. Peter Deer (talk) 11:54, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

I've just seen I've been accused of 'BLP' by contributor 'Ism schism' - so accused of undo-ing someone's edit. However I feel quite frustrated because my entry - please see below - keeps being 'undone' and there doesn't seem to be anything I can do about it even though it is verified and factual and so I am not sure why user Ism schism keeps removing my entry? *very confused*! I'm trying to improve the article and want to proceed as suggested in Wiki BRD.


— Preceding unsigned comment added by Eyelashfirexit10 (talk • contribs) 08:58, 21 May 2012 (UTC)

Grand Ayatollah ?

In the german version of Wikipedia it is noted that Khamenei is not a grand ayatollah and it is explicitely referenced and explained why not. In the english version it is said that he is a grand ayatollah without reference. As the german reference explicitely states that he declined the title "grand ayatollah" in 1994 the passage in the english wikipedia is definitely wrong. If he is grand ayatollah, he became this after 1994.

The same failure is on some other pages, too. The german Wikipedia lists "significantly less" grand ayatollahs as the english wikipedia.

(kkilger) 14:04, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

I support this statement. From different sources and discussions with Iranians I am 100% sure, that HE IS NOT GRAND AYATOLLAH! I urge wikipedia to change it !

129.206.185.111 (talk) 16:38, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

yes please remove that,HE IS NOT A GRAND AYATOLLAH! THISISME! 15:29, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Who gave you people the authority to say if he is grand ayatollah or not???? grand ayatollah is not a PhD honny!grand ayatollah is granted by other ayatollahs in shia and they GAVE him the lable. PLEASE don't say anything when you dont know nothing. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Neosaviourone (talk • contribs) 19:29, 14 February 2011 (UTC)

Every marja' taqlid is Grand Ayatollah. Khamenei is a Marja' Taqlid. It is mean he is a Grand Ayatollah. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 180.244.11.29 (talk) 02:01, 6 November 2012 (UTC)

This passage absolutely needs to be sourced

Located under the section "Supreme Leader":

[The concept that the ruler of the land should be an Islamic jurist serving as "guardian" (Vali faqih ولی فقیه in Persian), was developed by Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini in a lecture series made book. In this kind of theocratic "guardianship" leadership (Velayat-e Faqih, ولایت فقیه ), no political decision is lawful until it is approved by the guardian jurist who is called Leader (رهبر Rahbar in Persian) by the Iranian constitution. Even the taking of office by the democratically elected president is subject to the approval of the Leader.]

This is too big of a claim to not be properly sourced, it could be some serious misinformation. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Miona152 (talk • contribs) 03:46, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

false claim

This is not an attack, but there is no source supporting this claim that Khomeini "recommended Khamenei to be his successor, stating, “He enjoys that level of ijtihad required to be a Wali al-Faqih”" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.84.68.252 (talk) 07:36, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

Black turban

I have notice that Khamenei seems to be the only Islamic cleric with a black turban in Iran. Can someone explain why? Can others be defrocked by the Special Clerical Court for wearing a black turban?--71.108.3.62 (talk) 11:44, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

As I understand it, the black colour shows that the wearer is a descendant of Muhammed http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080719131028AAM1a6D 87.59.79.5 (talk) 17:49, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

And claiming descent from Muhammad seems to be a sort of tradition for Middle Eastern leaders anyway. Everyone does it! Aadieu (talk) 21:06, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

Yes,that's true. any cleric who is a descendant of prophet Muhammad wears black turban,and Ali Khamenei is not the only one.THISISME! 15:30, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

What is really interesting is that of all the Iranian presidents, only Mahmoud Ahmadinejad was not a turban. Rafsanjani and Rouhani wear white turbans, whereas Khamenei (then president) and Khatami wear black turbans. Karroubi, who also had presidential ambitions also wore white. Mousavi, I believe, is not a cleric either.--Kimse84 (talk) 19:21, 1 December 2013 (UTC)

Wearing black turban means being a decendent of prophet Muhammad but not everyone can claim that he is one cuz if someone is one he should have "seyyed" or "mir" before his first name in his birth certificate or "seyyede" or "sadat" if it's a she.to be a "seyyed" your father should be one. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Neosaviourone (talk • contribs) 19:18, 14 February 2011 (UTC)

Clear POV pushing regarding gender segregation

I just deleted a rather ridiculous chunk of text violating WP:NPOV. The sources removed were not related to the subject of this article and the text was a major POV push attempting to prove the subject wrong. Wikipedia is not a forum for editors to prove the opinions of religious/political/whatever subjects right or wrong. MezzoMezzo (talk) 11:46, 25 March 2014 (UTC)

Why is "Al" added before Khamenei everywhere in this article?

I hope whoever wrote this realises that nobody in Iran refers to him as "Al Khamenei". He is just Khamenei. "Al" is Arabic - perhaps he is referred to as "Al Khamenei" in Shi'a communities in Iraq and Lebanon, but it's still not appropriate to be used in an English language article about him. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.26.190.208 (talk) 18:17, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

WP:RSN verdict on a defector's claim

According to WP:RSN the specific claims about Khamenei mentioned in the telegraph.uk are not to be used in this article due to WP:BLP. If you disagree you may discuss it there. Until then, please do not add it to the article.--Kazemita1 (talk) 23:28, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

Khameini and the 2009 June Elections in Iran

Can someone make a mention of the current regime's president (mahmoud ahmadnejad) and his alliance with khameini. I think it is worth mentioning because there is a significant feud erupting in Iran's political sphere, between the ahmadnejad+ khameini+basij+revolutionary guard versus the reformist camp rafsanjani, khatami, and mousavi..and most of the youth of iran. if anyone doubts the significance of the current controversial fraudulent elections of iran, they can find evidence on youtube of the mass number of protesters who campaigned against the corrupted election results. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ditc (talk • contribs) 03:22, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

The number of killed people in protests after Iranian presidential election, 2009 is not true. "Iranian authorities had put the number of those killed in the post-election turmoil at 30." (presstv) Also, most of them have been killed by accident in riots or by MKO terrorists, not Iranian security forces, since they used no firearm. "The deputy police chief, Ahmad-Reza Radan, said the force had not used violence against protesters, rejecting any involvement in the killings, adding that the deaths were being investigated by the authorities." (presstv) "In Iran, MKO terrorists arrested in protests" (presstv) "Confirming four of the deaths, Iran's deputy police chief Ahmad-Reza Radan said one of the deceased fell from a bridge, two others were hit by cars while one other victim was shot dead by an unknown assailant." (presstv) Support of Khamenei from Ahmadinejad re-election is not true, even nobody knows Khamenei's vote in all elections. Mir-Hossein Mousavi, the leader of protesters in Iran, indicated this fact in FT interview: "Moussavi: He had no problems. He has an impartial position in the upcoming election. He mentioned this in his speech in Mashhad [late March] and repeated it to me. As we have had relatively extensive contacts discussing issues, the recent meeting was also very good and positive." (FT Interview: Mir-Hossein Moussavi) Karimi cae (talk) 17:05, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

Are you sure that "The number of killed people in protests after Iranian presidential election, 2009 is not true"??? your reference is presstv that was report many fake news and wrong statistics in 2009. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.66.206.178 (talk) 05:13, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

Opinion pieces

I have removed an opinion piece quoted as fact. Thanks. Ism schism (talk) 21:34, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

Paralysis

I was under the impression that he had lost use of his entire arm, but in videos of speeches he appears to be able to move it up and down at the shoulder, but not his elbow or hand. Is there any source about the specifics of his injury? DavidSSabb (talk) 12:03, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

Worth

Per discussion here [37]. Thanks. Ism schism (talk) 14:44, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

Archived discussion is at Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_177#MSN_Money_net_worth_on_Ali_Khamenei. 72.83.226.192 (talk) 11:19, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

The MSN link looks dead to me (redirects to the main MSN Money page). IBT sources a $36B estimate to "the Iran Channel", apparently a non-notable entity with zero visibility on Google. This is sub-par for a BLP; I'm removing it. Thundermaker (talk) 02:56, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

FWIW, I found the MSN on wayback. [38] It doesn't say where the number came from. Thundermaker (talk) 13:59, 1 November 2014 (UTC)

Please add his official work and personal Twitter accounts

These could be included as External Links, as is commonly done for many public figures, or included in the text, or included in the bio box in the top-right. I think, but am not sure, that his official work Twitter account is @khamenei_ir and his personal English-language Twitter account is @Sayyid_Khamenei -- but these need to be confirmed by reputable sources before including in the article. Benefac (talk) 06:07, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

I found his official twitter account confirmed at an Israeli news site. I'm going to look for something a little more neutral.
Not Israeli but same shit storm.
@khamenei_ir  Done
@Sayyid_Khamenei   unable to confirm Thundermaker (talk) 00:21, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Nuclear fatwa section needed improved accuracy? Why the roll-back?

The section, Fatwa against nuclear weapons, included a dismissal by an unreliable source (MEMRI, a pro-Israeli biased institution) making two claims negated by the reliable sources such as CNN and USA Today and Iranian official Nuclear Information website. So I had the claims by MEMRI removed and instead relied on articles by these reliable sources that both mention and factually counter the dismissal. The fatwa is also stated in Khamenei's official website, which, passing the conditions for WP:SELFPUB, was supplemented for further substantiation. The roll-backs therefore don't seem to have had any valid basis. Will restore to the improved version in case of no further objection. Strivingsoul (talk) 18:05, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

Not true. USA Today is only citing what Khamenei said. I'll restore the source (and what it really says) immediately. Given the nature of the controversial nuclear program of Iran, to rely solely on the word of Khamenei is POV, and an opinion calling into question the fatwa is necessary. Memri is reliable with attribution.--Ashurbanippal (talk) 00:34, 29 January 2015 (UTC)
The use of MERMI is a POV, and not neutral. Please review the wiki article on MERMI, they are highly selective, and not academically neutral by any standards. Including there POV, without the balance of others, is highly UNDUE. Thanks. Ism schism (talk) 18:52, 29 January 2015 (UTC)
According to Wikipedia entry for MEMRI, the institution is evidently not neutral and even infamous for biased and selective coverage. Also considering that there are various sources that affirm the fatwa, citing this website in particular would run the risk of undue weight, as also pointed out by Ism schism. But in my improved version, I had cited USAToday and also Official Iranian Nuclear Energy website which documents various occasions that the fatwa has been issued and reiterated. The fatwa was also cited from the official website of Ayatollah Khamenei which, contrary to claims made by Ism schism, especially when cited in conjunction with other corroborating sources (as I had done), is credible for his fatwas. That's according to conditions specified in WP:SELFPUB. So now I am of two minds to either restore my improved version that will completely replace the current form, or to add these extra sources to the current version to counterweight MEMRI and provide a more substantive and accurate narrative of the issue. @Ism schism: Strivingsoul (talk) 09:29, 31 January 2015 (UTC)
I tried to find a way to use MEMRI in the article, but it's too much to provide the necessary context, as they are somewhat of a propaganda organization. I deleted the reference to them per UNDUE. Thanks.Strivingsoul Ism schism (talk) 14:48, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

Dead Link

There are several dead link in this article and several sentence with invalid source.AliAkar (talk) 13:40, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

Mass deletions

The article has had mass deletion due to"I don't like it" for many reliable sources. This is not ok. Please do not delete rd information again. Thanks. Ism schism (talk) 15:24, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

All of the deleted sentences are personal idea about Khamenei and these person are not important person. These person have partial judgment about him and the writer of this section used several dead link.AliAkar (talk) 07:18, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
@AliAkar: I agree that the entry has serious issues regarding balance, neutrality and comprehensiveness; however none of these issues warrant immediate mass deletions. The issues have to be specifically addressed, discussed and resolved. I will mention some of these issues in a separate talk and I'm going to add neutrality issue tag until the all sections of the article receive the necessary improvements. It also seems to me that the article has to be partially restructured. Some subsections don't seem to belong to their parent section. So I also added the layout issue tag. I will open separate discussions for addressing these issues. Strivingsoul (talk) 08:53, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

Political philosophy and image and Political power following reform era

Hooman Majd's book is not valid book for describing of Ali Khamenei and Majd has negative vote with Khamenei. This is a partial judgment and better omit. Also Vali Nasr is not a famous person and his idea about him is not important. While his idea is partial judgment. AliAkar (talk) 08:11, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

Also Political power following reform era is personal idea of Karim Sadjadpour and he is not a notable person that mentioned his idea. Also this is a partial judgment and personal idea and is not suitable for Wikipedia. AliAkar (talk) 08:49, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
No doubt that the entire article has serious issues with balance and neutrality, as I said elsewhere. It needs extensive modifications. Strivingsoul (talk) 09:01, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

Khamenei's letter to the western youth; why was it removed?

Last week I added a new subsection to the Foreign Policy titled "Public letter to the western youth" which was soon deleted on the charges of "soapboxing" and using "unreliable sources". As for the merits of the subject itself, it is noteworthy that the letter was a recent remarkable foreign policy move by Khamenei in his capacity both as a muslim scholar and the highest authority of an Islamic state. The letter also received widespread coverage in Mid-Eastern and Western media. So the subject was important and notable enough to be added to the article. However as for the charge of "soapboxing", I had done my best to describe the letter along the terms used by the three cited sources i.e. CNN, PressTV, and NY Times. PressTV is an Iranian state-funded news channel however a good fit for a balanced choice of sources, and its political affiliations don't seem to have any relevance to the question of NPOV since it only provided the full text of the message without any positive or negative commentary. So the deletion and the charges don't seem to have had any reasonable ground. Will, therefore, restore the subsection in case of no objections. Strivingsoul (talk) 13:12, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

somebody created an article on it, and put a link in the See also section. Thanks. Ism schism (talk) 13:34, 1 February 2015 (UTC)
Noticed that! But the section was removed by the same user who had found fault with the fatwa section improvements but never returned to have any say after discussion! So I just decided to restore the Letter section since his charges are refuted and he has made no further objection. Strivingsoul (talk) 09:10, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

Domestic policy

At this part, Some sentences have been not referred to the reference and some of the references is not reliable. I have used appropriate tag for them. Another issue is the dead links that i've marked them.Samaneh-davoudi (talk) 11:36, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

Minorities

There is some issue:

  • The accuracy of "The Bahá'í Faith is the largest religious minority in Iran" is unclear. I've not seen this sentence at reference.
  • At "while others have expressed concern about the group (Bahá'í Faith)", the reference is one of the wiki page. So it is not a reliable source.
  • This sentence " According to a letter from the Chairman of the Command Headquarters of the Armed Forces in Iran addressed to the Ministry of Information, the Revolutionary Guard and the Police Force, Khamenei has also ordered the Command Headquarters to identify people who adhere to the Bahá'í Faith and to monitor their activities and gather any and all information about the members of the Bahá'í Faith " have been not referred to the reference.

For the last two point, I will want to delete sentence.Samaneh-davoudi (talk) 12:35, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

Mass deletion

  • Large sections of the article have been mass deleted without consensus on the talk page. I have restored the "letter to youth" and New editing tags to the page - as these are constructive. Before any mass of content is deleted, it needs to be discussed here on the talk page first. Thanks. Ism schism (talk) 13:23, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
Why were the tags deleted? This article has serious problems with neutrality and balance, and this has been already raised by other users as well. Notice previous discussions above. The tags should be restored. Strivingsoul (talk) 16:58, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
what are you referring to? The tags were added, along with Khamenei's letter. Ism schism (talk) 18:03, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
There are 2 tags that accidentally got dropped when I readded the deleted material. It's my fault, I apologize for overlooking them. I put them back in the list of tags at the top of the article. I think all of them are restored. Thank you for pointing this out. Ism schism (talk) 18:22, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

Deciding relevance and/or location of Mykonos case

I recently added two important POVs to the Mykonos assassinations case which solved on problem with this particular subject, i.e. lack of balance by alternative POVs. The other problem with this topic is that it is placed in the Life and presidency section while this incident took place during Ayatollah Khamenei's Supreme Leadership. So it has to be moved to this latter section if it is to be preserved. But a more fundamental question is whether this case needs to be mentioned in this page at all! Considering that this accusation against Ayatollah is strongly contested, I suspect whether it is appropriate to dedicate a hefty separate section to cover the accusation with all the necessary background. Strivingsoul (talk) 06:13, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

Relations with President Ahmadinejad

Dose this title as important and notable topic in the article?AliAkar (talk) 13:47, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

Yes, I think so. However it only covers POVs that describe his relationship with the former President in a negative light. It has to be balanced by other POVs. Strivingsoul (talk) 08:58, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
I think equally important would be a section regarding the (admittedly somewhat mysterious) relationship between Khamenei and President Rouhani, but I don't think I'm qualified enough to update the article with this. TritonsRising (talk) 10:27, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

public diplomacy:Public letter to the Western youths

Following the discussion here I changed the section's name. We have not reached the consensus yet. So I invite all of you to participate in the discussion.--Seyyed(t-c) 12:31, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

There is now a new letter from Khamenei, per Reuters, AFP, Washington Times, Wall Street Journal, The Guardian, Newsweek, Al Arabiya and The Independent. Where in the article should we feature it? --Anders Feder (talk) 00:12, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

I don't think so. For, first, this doesn't count as a public diplomacy move but belongs to foreign policy. Second, the Iranian foreign ministry spokeswoman has rejected the claim by WSJ. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Strivingsoul (talk • contribs) 03:39, 17 February 2015 (UTC)
The Iranian foreign ministry is just another source. They have no authority over the issue whatsoever.--Anders Feder (talk) 03:50, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

"Wiped off the map"

Current revision reads

According to anti-regime change activist Abbas Edalat, in 2005 Khamenei responded to President Ahmadinejad's remark that Zionism should be "wiped off the map" by saying that "the Islamic Republic has never threatened and will never threaten any country."

I've changed it to

According to anti-regime change activist Abbas Edalat, in 2005 Khamenei responded to a remark by then-President Ahmadinejad which had been widely translated as saying that the regime occupying Jerusalem should be "wiped off the map" by saying that "the Islamic Republic has never threatened and will never threaten any country."

The only substantial edit is, of course, the quotation. The original makes it seem like "wiped off the map" is the correct translation, which is disputed. And of course, he said nothing about Zionism, only the My edit is, admittedly, awkwardly phrased, but I couldn't think of a better way to write it. Is this acceptable to the community? Charlotte Aryanne (talk) 21:01, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for your contribution. As I have also noted in previous talks, this page including the said section (Relations with Pres. Ahmadinejad) requires substantial modification for improved NPOV and accuracy, and that was exactly why we decided to add the issues tags to the page. As for the particular issue you've found with Ahmadinejad's remarks that reflects only one case of the said inaccuracies. As for your edit proposal, the entire "Israel should be wiped off the map" must be produced and clearly marked as what the source already says "a notorious mistranslation", and the correct translation should be also supplied. Likewise Khamenei's comment must be described as clarifying the position of IRI in regards with other countries and not correcting a statement that had been already established as bogus. Strivingsoul (talk) 06:03, 13 March 2015 (UTC)

Controversial claims in Health section

There is written "In March of 2015, he was reportedly hospitalized again with terminal cancer.[157] On March 7th, 2015, there were reports that Khamenei had died, although Iran would not confirm or deny the reports.[158]"

However, Ali Khamenei had a meeting about Environmental situation of Iran with related organizations' staff on 8 March and his official sites published its photo[39] and Iran's TV published its news[40] . --Seyyed(t-c) 09:45, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

I've removed the rumors about his death, especially since the two links only talked about his insistence on preserving nature and made no mention whatsoever of cancer or treatment. There are far too many rumors going around, and even the most trustworthy media is basically reporting on other media's reports of rumors. Martin Blank (talk) 19:32, 13 March 2015 (UTC)

Correct birth date of Ayatollah Sayyed Ali Khamenei

According to different articles and books in Iran(like:Sharh-e Esm), the real birth date of Sayyed Ali Khamenei is not on "Tir". He himself has said that My birth date is not in Tir. Then the mentioned book above has wrote that his birth date is on "Farvardin". So if people want to know that when is the correct date of him, I should say that it's on 29 of Farvardin 1318 that equals 19 April 1939. Rastegarfar.mo (talk) 05:05, 21 April 2015 (UTC)

Opposition to United States foreign policy

There is no relation between first paragraph and the topic and i am gonna delete it.

the paragraph disscuses iran ,shipment,nuclear fuel and ... that is totally unrelated.Yasin2015 (talk) 09:59, 29 April 2015 (UTC)

In which way is it unrelated? What would you add instead?--Anders Feder (talk) 17:22, 1 May 2015 (UTC)

Question of Holocaust denial

Some editor keeps adding Holocaust denial (revisionism) tags to the article with no refs. This controversial subject will have to be addressed here as there are sources that say both - with lots of propaganda on both sides. Thanks. Ism schism (talk) 19:07, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

Ali Khamenei is a Holocaust denier. From Jerusalem Post "Iran's Khamenei questions 'certainty' of Holocaust" http://www.jpost.com/Iranian-Threat/News/Irans-Khamenei-questions-certainty-of-Holocaust-346116 [Copypasta removed by Anders Feder] The above article is from Reuters and Jerusalem post. GingerBreadHarlot (talk) 19:32, 6 February 2015 (UTC)
Thank you for your response. As this is a BLP, I think it's best to be sure that a label accurately fits a person before it is assigned to them. I wish this issue had more clarity. I don't see in the above Khamenei saying anything like "the Holocaust didn't happen." In the reference above, that's seems clear. If we are going to accuse someone of Holocaust denial, we should, at minimum, provide proof that they actually argued that the Holocaust did not take place. That is my assumption. Khamenei's comments above apeae vague in this respect. If he is a denier, we should have no problem finding comments of his arguing that the Holocaust did not happen. I'll try to find some. I also posted on the BLP noticeboard for some guidance on this, in case this has been an issue before. Again, thank you for taking time to clear this up. I appreciate that. Ism schism (talk) 21:06, 6 February 2015 (UTC)
As for "having no problem finding comments of his arguing that the Holocaust did not happen", here is a verbatim quote from his official website: Western countries allow no freedom of expression, which they claim to advocate, with regard to the myth of the massacre of Jews known as the holocaust, and nobody in the West enjoys the freedom of expression to deny it or raise doubts about it.[41][42] It can't get any more indisputable than that.--Anders Feder (talk) 05:19, 14 May 2015 (UTC)
"Myth of the massacre of Jews", this is so laughable to read. These Khamenei minions have to be banned and blocked from Wikipedia permanently for twisting things. Khamenei is a holocaust denier and saying otherwise despite evidence means you are not here to build an encyclopaedia. This is not an advocacy website. Mbcap (talk) 23:45, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

Kerry's statement about Ayatollah Khamenei

According to different sites like: [[ http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/apr/29/john-kerry-iran-wished-us-had-leader-irans-supreme/%7Cwww.washingtontimes.com]] , freebeacon.com , allenbwest.com , www.newsmax.com and [[ http://unitedwithisrael.org/report-kerry-tells-iranian-counterpart-that-the-us-needs-a-leader-like-the-ayatollah/%7Cwww.unitedwithisrael.org]] John Kerry the foreign Minister of the USA has said that: he ‘wished U.S. had a leader like Iran’s supreme leader’. So I am sure that Anders Feder (talk) has deleted that text without any logical reason. And also he is slandering. Rastegarfar.mo (talk) 10:02, 7 May 2015 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rastegarfar.mo (talk • contribs) 09:42, 7 May 2015 (UTC)

Kerry is not the "foreign minister" of the United States - the U.S. of A. has no such governmental office. He is Secretary of State (unfortunately). HammerFilmFan (talk) 18:10, 4 June 2015 (UTC)
None of those sources are reporting what you are quoting them for. They are reporting on what is being propagated in Iran's state-controlled media, hence "according to comments made by a senior Iranian cleric and repeated in the country’s state-run media." Since Iran's state-controlled media is a highly unreliable propaganda outlet for the Iranian governement, I'll remove what you added once more.--Anders Feder (talk) 14:53, 7 May 2015 (UTC)

Health

The Wall Street Journal is really a bad source for claiming Khamenei had cancer. As if they were any closer to his doctors than iranian newspapers. As this seems to be the only source for that claim, it can be considered irrelevant and the line "In 2015, the Wall Street Journal confirmed that Supreme Leader Ali Khamenei has cancer." should be deleted entirely. At least it shouldn't say 'confirmed', but rather 'claimed'. BTW: This was already claimed in the 90s, several times. Seems to be more like an american wish than a fact.— Preceding unsigned comment added by SidqIO (talk • contribs)

Iranian newspapers are controlled by a military dictatorship and will report anything they need to uphold the cult of personality upon which its power is based. I went ahead and deleted the line since it was based on the same reports of prostate surgery mentioned previously in the section.--Anders Feder (talk) 11:29, 8 May 2015 (UTC)
Do you consider the Wall Street Journal or the Washington Post any better? If a dictatorship controls the news given from inside iran, how can American newspapers get information about his health situation that were not supposed to leave Iran or even Ayatollah Khamenei's house. Do they get information from his doctors? What other source could they have to claim he has cancer? Are they maybe in contact with his family or his close friends? I doubt it. Spreading rumors has nothing to do with journalism. So to be fair one should at least mention both sides. The only fact that is worth mentioning is that American newspapers repeatedly try to spread rumors about Ayatollah Khamenei having cancer.--SidqIO (talk) 08:25, 5 July 2015 (UTC)
Wall Street Journal or the Washington Post are roughly ten million times more reliable than most Iranian newspapers, yes. As I wrote above I deleted the statement, but it was restored by another user. I therefore rephrased it as seen here instead.--Anders Feder (talk) 08:32, 5 July 2015 (UTC)
@Anders Feder: What makes you describe an Islamic Republic formulated according to a distinct, substantial political philosophy as a "dictatorship"?! I remember having pointed out this in the past that you should keep your euro-centric and Orientalist prejudices to yourself when editing topics related to Islam or Islamic societies, or you will be prone to misrepresent and misjudge the topics. But if you can't really see beyond your cultural straightjacket, with all due respect, you'd better avoid editing these topics at all!—Strivingsoul (talk) 00:27, 6 July 2015 (UTC)
@Strivingsoul: I remember you previously having been blocked for battleground editing with the warning that a topic ban might be necessary if you can't hold your prejudices against Jews to yourself when editing Wikipedia. Something which I have not. Your incoherent Occidentalist conspiracy babble has no value to this discussion.--Anders Feder (talk) 00:50, 6 July 2015 (UTC)
Well, reminding me of an instance of trouble that could be partially blamed for WP:BIAS against muslim non-English contributors to Wikipedia (and admittedly partially my amateur impatience with a controversial topic) is irrelevant to the fact that you are again just caught up making bogus sweeping arguments against Iran and Iranian sources. I also remember your past attempts for discrediting the reliability of any and all Iranian media en masse was rejected by pretty much any one in the discussion! As for the charge of prejudice against Jews, I really got no warning, but I admit I seemed to surprise some Western Wikipedians when I suggested the obvious that it is a clear case of conflict of interest when, for example, a politically and financially powerful Jewish agency such as ADL is taken as a "reliable" source to suggest that a book that criticizes that very agency is "anti-Semitic"! Does that sound like anything along the charge of "prejudice"? Anyhow this is completely unrelated to the debate here. You don't have to feel angry when some one is simply telling you to keep a more open mind in your judgement of other cultures! Remember, there are far greater evidences and reasons to demonize some of your favorite governments than there are for Iran. But it seems that you're exclusively politically biased against one particular government that does not fit your culture and perceptions. Peace!—Strivingsoul (talk)
No, what is irrelevant your pretense of being someone capable of lecturing others not to do what you are yourself the prime example of. If you feel Wikipedia is run by some big Jewish cabal, you should go complain somewhere that is not this talk page.--Anders Feder (talk) 01:53, 6 July 2015 (UTC)
I'm prime example of what?! I am talking about your stubborn prejudice against certain topics, and you're now putting words into my mouth about a Jewish cabal conspiracy!! Come on and let's finish this and get a life!--Strivingsoul (talk) 02:07, 6 July 2015 (UTC)
You're a prime example of "stubborn prejudice".--Anders Feder (talk) 02:09, 6 July 2015 (UTC)
As for the rumors of the Ayatollah Khamanei's cancer, these are unconfirmed and easy to debunk. Iranian Supreme Leader has been in good shape and mood ever since his surgery last year, and the physical signs usually associated with a prolonged cancer treatment (e.g. hair loss) are completely absent in him. So there's really no ground for taking the allegations by some of the antagonist foreign media outlets seriously, unless, of course, one is led by some extreme preconceived bias against Iran and its media community!—Strivingsoul (talk) 00:36, 6 July 2015 (UTC)
caution According to WP:ALIVE we should use such claims with caution. Biographies of living persons ("BLPs") must be written conservatively and with regard for the subject's privacy. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a tabloid: it is not Wikipedia's job to be sensationalist, or to be the primary vehicle for the spread of titillating claims about people's lives; the possibility of harm to living subjects must always be considered when exercising editorial judgment. This policy applies to any living person mentioned in a BLP, whether or not that person is the subject of the article, and to material about living persons in other articles and on other pages, including talk pages.[3] The burden of evidence rests with the editor who adds or restores material.--Seyyed(t-c) 11:48, 6 July 2015 (UTC)

Re: [43] Just to be clear: there is no "right to know" on Wikipedia, nor a "right to privacy". There is relevance and WP:BLP, where the latter is mainly a reflection of the law in the area where Wikimedia happens to be based. Given that the material is properly attributed to an external source, I don't really have any concern about BLP. But since the material is merely a statement of the opinion of some lowly writer with no real credentials, I do have serious concerns about its relevance.--Anders Feder (talk) 16:02, 27 July 2015 (UTC)

For y/info, I think WP readers should know about it (even it is not confirmed by open medical sources) because I read this information in the French media also. I have NO agenda. Best, 67.87.48.243 (talk) 18:19, 27 July 2015 (UTC)
Le Figaro is a pretty good source: [44]. If someone speaks French, I guess they could use it.--Anders Feder (talk) 18:57, 27 July 2015 (UTC)
There was such rumors for at least 15 years. Just see this reports which predicts "Supreme Leader Ali Khamenei has terminal stage leukemia and could die in a few months," according to an August 2009 cable"[45]! Now Jerusalem post says: "Unconfirmed reports say Khamenei's prostate cancer has progressed and spread throughout his body."[46] But few days later "he appeared in public again following reports that he was hospitalized with late-stage cancer."[47] We are not hear to reproduce rumors as fact!--Seyyed(t-c) 19:13, 27 July 2015 (UTC)

For clarity I was convinced about this possibility of having cancer because of that quote from the above article:

"Earlier this week, the French newspaper Le Figaro quoted Western intelligence officials as saying that the cancer was discovered about ten years ago. "The cancer is in stage four, in other words has spread." Doctors estimate "he has two years left to live."

Either Western intelligence is lying or Le Figaro is not reliable. Which is which?

I agree the rumors should not be included, for although certain western sources cite that, it is easy to figure out that they are just regurgitating unsubstantiated rumors. In general we should be wary of Western sources' demonizing coverage of Iran for western corporate media has been historically biased against the Islamic Republic. This bias is many fold and is influenced by cultural, political and financial factors.Strivingsoul (talk) 19:34, 27 July 2015 (UTC)
We go by WP:V, not by how many fanciful Jewish cabals we can dream up.--Anders Feder (talk) 20:11, 27 July 2015 (UTC)
And we also go by WP:NPV. And fanciful Jewish cabals seems to be your favorite digression tactic so keep dreaming! Strivingsoul (talk) 06:24, 28 July 2015 (UTC)
On the contrary, they are your favorite digression tactic. Focus on sources, not your delusions.--Anders Feder (talk) 13:25, 28 July 2015 (UTC)
So far as the this topic is concerned, it is you who seems to be so interested in keeping up the delusional rumor about Ayatollah's health! Strivingsoul (talk) 18:34, 28 July 2015 (UTC)
I couldn't care less about this character's health.--Anders Feder (talk) 18:48, 28 July 2015 (UTC)
I can accept it, only if the text clarifies that these are rumors and unconfirmed reports which have been reported for several years by some sources. Every time they predicted he would be alive for 1 or 2 years! In practice, he works very well and he had several public meeting in the former Ramadan with different groups such as students, Quran reciters, poets, etc.--Seyyed(t-c) 05:03, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

Other Important Fatwas

Please Add After Editing (I am a iranian.These fatwas wery famous in iran.):

Other Important Fatwas:

1.all Afghan children, even children of the undocumented migrants living in the country illegally, have the right to register and study in Iran's schools.(At least 840,000 Afghan refugees living in Iran ؛ Afghan President applauded Iran Leader For This Fatwa)

sources:

http://www.tasnimnews.com/english/Home/Single/752080

http://english.irib.ir/news/iran1/item/211508-kabul-hails-leader%E2%80%99s-order-to-bring-education-for-afghan-children-in-iran


2.Insulting the symbols of the Sunni brothers is prohibited..

sources:

(Iranian National Center for Religious Accountability) :http://www.pasokhgoo.ir/node/83450


3.The in vitro fertilization Is free (solvent).

sources:

http://farsi.khamenei.ir/treatise-content?id=114#1272


4.The rule on smoking cigarette or hookah depends on the degree of harm it causes. If it causes a considerable harm, annoys/hurts others or is against law, it is impermissible.

http://www.leader.ir/tree/index.php?catid=38 (Social and Cultural Issues)


5.harm the body is a forbidden. Even use of Qama in Ashura dey is a forbidden.

http://www.farsnews.com/newstext.php?nn=13930801000803

Mahmoudi125 (talk) 06:30, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

Potential BLP issues require consensus on recent material

There has been strong disagreement on recent material added to the BLP. Consensus is required for potentially contentious material. Thanks. Ism schism (talk) 21:31, 31 August 2015 (UTC)

I think a good discussion is required here on how to proceed with the recent attempts to add contentious information. How do other editors feel we should proceed? Thanks. Ism schism (talk) 23:34, 31 August 2015 (UTC)

JPost/ Times of Israel

I see that under "Zionism" section, there are many mention of Khamenei venting his hatred of illegitimate Israel, just like any other Muslim, and they are included here just because JPost, a zionist newspaper of occupied Al-Quds (Jerusalem), and Times of Israel covered them. Shouldn't they be removed as those sources are not neutral, maybe also not reliable?--Ankhsoprah2 (talk) 04:16, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

Please tone down the political posturing. No one really cares. As for the substantive matters, JPost is a relatively poor source, and after a WP:GOOGLECHECK no better sources seem to support the statement, so I'll remove it.--Anders Feder (talk) 04:37, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
Nonsense. Jpost is a perfectly reliable source, used throughout Wikipedia. The fact that it's an Israeli newspaper doesn't make it better nor worse. Here's the twitter. Logically, as an Israeli newspaper it will be more interested in reporting what Khamenei has to say about their country, but I don't think you made a very good Google search. In less than one minute I found the CNN and other news sites reporting the same statements. In any case, if you think Jpost shouldn't be used at all, take it to RSN.--Beukford (talk) 12:39, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
@Beukford: Actually, no. You take it to RSN. The burden is on you to demonstrate that it is reliable. If you have all these reliable sources from CNN etc, why don't you just present them instead of only vaguely alluding to them without giving any evidence that they exist?--Anders Feder (talk) 12:49, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
Jerusalem Post is a known Israeli newspaper which is considered reliable and used in many articles. The burden is on you to gain consensus before removing cited content. There is no blanket ban on Jpost. I just added other sources reporting exactly the same twitter, including a newspaper from Canada.--Beukford (talk) 12:52, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
@Beukford: That's a flat-out lie on your part. "The onus to achieve consensus for inclusion is on those seeking to include disputed content."[48] Whether JPost is "known" and "used in many articles" is irrelevant. Press TV is used in many articles too, and that doesn't make it reliable either. As this comment from RSN suggests, JPost does indeed engage in blatant fabrication of stories.--Anders Feder (talk) 13:02, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
One comment from a controversial editor about a completely unrelated issue doesn't prove Jpost engages in "blatant fabrication of stories". Besides, as I showed you before, Khamenei's twitter was reported by several other newspapers, so it's no "fabrication". It was written openly and clearly by Khamenei's account, and reported by secondary sources. Don't split hairs to hide a clear statement.--Beukford (talk) 13:10, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
I don't really care what you think it proves. If you think the case is so clear cut, it should be a small matter for you to lift your burden to demonstrate reliability by asking on WP:RSN or through WP:RFC.--Anders Feder (talk) 13:27, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
This is getting boring. As I told you many times before (I don't know how to stress this enough), Khamenei's twitter was reported by many other sources, not just Jerusalem Post. Besides, as WP:BIASED says, reliability is always in context. There is nothing really controversial or disputed here: Khamenei posted a public twitter, and several newspapers (including Jpost) reported it. What "fabrication" are you talking about?
And Jpost is a very known newspaper reporting known facts. If you think it should be banned from Wikipedia for lack of reliability and "fabricating stories", go ahead. So far Jpost wasn't banned in RSN, despite the discussion you mentioned. But let me tell you that JPost won't be excluded just "because it comes from Israel". That's ad hominem attack based on nationality, not an argument.--Beukford (talk) 13:41, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
There is no consensus to add this material. Thanks. Ism schism (talk) 13:58, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
It is the long-standing version. You need consensus to remove it.--Beukford (talk) 14:02, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
For a BLP you need consensus to add contentious material. Ism schism (talk) 14:04, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
Not "contentious" at all. And nobody needs your approval to publish an open twitter that was reported by several newspapers, including Globalnews from Canada, The Slatest, CNN and Jerusalem Post (not to mention it was published by Khamenei himself in his twitter account). This is not a BLP violation. Just a pertinent and related comment about Israel reported by several reliable sources in an impeccable place. Stop disrupting.--Beukford (talk) 14:07, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
Regarding quoted tweets the only relevant issue relates to whether the inclusion of the information will give a balanced result. Tweets can be checked and anything such as a pasted screen shot of one in a prestigious publication can be considered reliable. No source would risk its reputation by falsifying something that is so readily checkable as a tweet that has been retweeted 180 times.
A main reason for not quoting content is if it was intended to soapbox (rather than to reveal) non neutral views. GregKaye 16:17, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
That Ayatollah Khamenei Twitter account is not verified. And also, JPost is not a reliable source.--Ankhsoprah2 (talk) 17:19, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
And what about Globalnews, The Slatest, CNN, etc?--Beukford (talk) 19:59, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
  1. ^ "The use of nuclear weapons from the perspective of the jurisprudence", "Fardanews", February 2012
  2. ^ "The use of nuclear weapons from the perspective of the jurisprudence", "Fardanews", February 2012
  3. ^ "Iranian defectors: Khamenei said anti-nuke ‘fatwa’ won’t matter", "The Daily Caller", 14 May 2012
  4. ^ A. Savyon and Y. Carmon, "Renewed Iran-West Nuclear Talks – Part II: Tehran Attempts to Deceive U.S. President Obama, Sec'y of State Clinton With Nonexistent Anti-Nuclear Weapons Fatwa By Supreme Leader Khamenei", "The Middle East Media Research Institute", 18 April 2012
  5. ^ "Seeking Nuclear Insight in Fog of the Ayatollah’s Utterances", "The New York Times", 13 April 2012
  6. ^ "Seeking Nuclear Insight in Fog of the Ayatollah’s Utterances", "The New York Times", 13 April 2012
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