Talk:Albert C. Barnes

Details of death

Crunch recently edited the section describing Barnes' death, commenting "disdain alone didn't cause the crash. added details of the crash from the reference provided". The ref describes a crash at the intersection of Routes 401 and 29 in Phoenixville; the article as now standing repeats much of this language. However, a look at a map shows that not only do Pennsylvania Routes 401 and 29 not intersect in Phoenixville, they don't intersect at all. I would suggest dropping that part, as it's highly questionable, based on outside information.

Furthermore, the cited reference describes (almost luridly) Barnes' dislike of stop signs and the like, which was the proximate cause of the crash that killed him. Had he stopped, he would have made it home that day. Can anyone else shed some light on this issue? --Piledhigheranddeeper (talk) 19:35, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

A few points. 1) What map are you looking at? The roads may not intersect now, in 2010, but it's possible they did in 1951. We should be able to find an obituary from the Phil. Inquirer or NY Times that documents the circumstances of the crash that killed him. 2) You also say that the information about the crash is "based on outside information." What do you mean by "outside information?" Verifiability in Wikipedia is based on reliable sources, i.3., outside information. 3) My removal of the text about his "disdain" is that someone's feelings about stop signs don't by themselves cause a car crash. The crash was caused by his car running a stop sign. This is a simple fact. He ran a stop sign and a truck hit his car and he died. You also say that had he stopped he would have made it home that day. That's also not necessary true. He might have gotten into another crash, by his fault or someone else's, or had some other calamity kill him. It's not the job of Wikipedia to speculate that his emotions caused the crash or that without these emotions he would have made it home. It's the job of Wikipedia to report facts. See WP:NOT#OR. --Crunch (talk) 11:20, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

I've also removed the description of the intersection at least temporarily until it can be confirmed by a second source. --Crunch (talk) 11:36, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

With respect, I believe I may have solved the mystery of the intersection. While Route 29 does not intersect with Route 401, Phoenixville Pike does - along a former section of Route 29. (See Wikipedia listing for PA Route 29: "Prior to construction of the US 202 expressway in 1970, PA 29 travelled entirely on Phoenixville Pike between Phoenixville and West Chester. PA 29 entered West Chester on Goshen Road and Marshall Street ending at PA 100 in town. When the US 202 expressway was built, PA 29 was rerouted onto Morehall Road at Devault and ran south to junction US 202 and then end at US 30.") If I'm correct, the intersection would be Phoenixville Road at Conestoga Road, next to Great Valley Middle School. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:282:8100:B320:B0A1:DFF2:19F:8B5C (talk) 22:42, 24 December 2020 (UTC)

The outside information (being "outside" the work cited) is the map, an American Map Co. road map of Pennsylvania. The "disdain" is reflected in the article cited, which comments about his not paying attention to stop signs. It seems that his habit of running stop signs, specifically this one (wherever it actually was), did indeed result in his death. Further research on my part has turned up a considerable amount of innuendo about Barnes' life and especially death, but mere suggestion doesn't belong in an encyclopedia. --Piledhigheranddeeper (talk) 17:58, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

His habitual running of stop signs did not result in his death. His running of one stop sign at one time and one place caused his death. This is a documented fact. The fact that he may have had a habit of running stop signs is not relevant. It is nothing more than undocumented opinion on his driving habits. With regard to the "outside source," a road map of Pennsylvania highways in 1951 should is a valid source and should be able to confirm whether these roads did indeed intersect at that time. --Crunch (talk) 21:31, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

"Seizure " of His Art

"The 2009 documentary film The Art of the Steal (film) tells the story of Barnes' collection and the subsequent seizure of it by the city of Philadelphia."

Does the use of the word "seizure" seem a bit biased to anyone else? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.17.73.27 (talk) 06:13, 28 December 2010 (UTC)

Instead of "seizure of it", how about "appropriation of it"? --CliffC (talk) 15:15, 28 December 2010 (UTC)

• The Art of the Steal should not be assumed to be balanced or unbiased as a source of information. To quote a New York Times review: "Some members of the museum world who have seen the film have also taken sharp issue with many of Mr. Argott’s conclusions and with the style in which they are presented." Rosenblum, Constance (February 19, 2010). "Requiem for a Jumble of Artworks". The New York Times. Mary Mark Ockerbloom (talk) 21:14, 28 January 2019 (UTC)

  of course they said that, how are we giving so much weight to the words of the thiefs? 187.189.146.238 (talk) 15:08, 5 May 2022 (UTC)

his doctorate

Dr. Barnes was a graduate of the University of Pennsylvania School of Medicine. He did a one year internship at a psychiatric hospital. He may have taken some courses in chemistry when he was in Germany. He did call himself a chemist, but he had no degree in this field. His original company, in 1902, was called Barnes and Hille, Chemists. Hille was a PhD chemist that Barnes met in Germany and induced to come to the U.S. Hille developed and produced the products. Barnes contribution to the partnership was convincing the medical profession to use their medical products, Argyrol and Ovoferrin. This is all covered in the unauthorized biography Art and Argyrol. --AJim (talk) 23:18, 19 August 2011 (UTC)

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Sources

Is anyone else concerned at the number of references in this article that were published by the Barnes Foundation? I have to think they might not be the most objective source of information. --Piledhigheranddeeper (talk) 01:33, 28 January 2019 (UTC)

• I've been meaning to put some comments on this talk page for a while now regarding Albert Barnes-related sources. I want to encourage people to be extra cautious in their reading of sources about Albert C. Barnes for a number of reasons.

1. Barnes was definitely a colorful person (to say the least) who aroused strong opinions in others. His own statements as well as those of others should be examined very carefully. It is tempting to repeat apocryphal stories about him without checking for careful sourcing: even recent books and articles should be read with some caution for this reason. Some of the newer research (see point 2) overturns some of the older stories about him.

2. Much of the writing about Barnes and the Barnes Foundation predates the organization of the Barnes Foundation Archives and Library, which have been rightfully described as "long-neglected".

Major efforts to organize the archives' materials and make them more accessible began around 2007. (See Beaucar, Barbara; Pruitt, Adrienne; Rawdon, Katy (2008). "'Art is no trivial matter': the Barnes Foundation Archives and Library". Art Libraries Journal. 33 (1): 22–27. doi:10.1017/S0307472200015182.) They moved from Merion to the Parkway in Philadelphia in 2017. (See "The Barnes Foundation's Archives and Special Collections Moves to the Parkway". Delaware Valley Archivists Group. February 13, 2017.

As a result of the archives work, recent researchers have potentially had access to a wider range of resources than were previously available. This is directly relevant to @Piledhigheranddeeper:'s concern. My personal opinion is that in many cases newer publications tend to be more carefully sourced and less biased, even though a number of these newer sources are catalogues published by the Barnes Foundation. Generally speaking I think that all sources that discuss Albert C. Barnes should be very read carefully with an eye to bias (or which there is lots). Mary Mark Ockerbloom (talk) 20:57, 28 January 2019 (UTC)

• Here is a list of some titles published before the archives were opened, in some cases with my personal notes/opinions Mary Mark Ockerbloom (talk) 20:57, 28 January 2019 (UTC)
  • Anderson, John. Art Held Hostage: the battle over the Barnes collection. New York, NY : W.W. Norton & Company, 2003.
  • Cantor, Gilbert. The Barnes Foundation: reality vs. myth. Philadelphia, PA : Consolidated/Drake Press, 1974.
  • Greenfeld, Howard. The Devil and Dr. Barnes: portrait of an American art collector. New York, NY : Viking, 1987. ("A Note on Sources" in the book states: "Neither footnotes nor a detailed bibliography of sources seems to be appropriate in a book of this nature." Possible negative bias.)
  • Hart, Henry. Dr. Barnes of Merion: an appreciation. New York, NY : Farrar, Strauss and Company, 1963. (Hart was a reporter for the Philadelphia Record and a friend of Dr. and Mrs. Barnes; not a scholarly publication, no citations. Possible positive bias.)
  • Meyers, Mary Ann. Art, Education, & African-American Culture: Albert Barnes and the science of philanthropy. New Brunswick, NJ : Transaction Publishers, 2004. (Contains both factual information and speculation, usually identifiable.)
  • Rudenstine, Neil. The House of Barnes: the man, the collection, and the controversy. Philadelphia, PA : American Philosophical Society, 2012. (Possible negative bias.)
  • Schack, William. Art and argyrol : the life and career of Dr. Albert C. Barnes. New York, NY : Thomas Yoseloff, 1960.
  • Wattenmaker, Richard and Anne Distel, et al. Great French Paintings from the Barnes Foundation : Impressionist, Post-impressionist, and Early Modern. New York, NY : Knopf : in association with Lincoln University Press, 1993. (Catalog: Great French Paintings tour)

• More recent catalogs may have used more newly available collections & archives information
  • Clarke, Christa. African Art in the Barnes Foundation. New York, NY : Skira Rizzoli Publications, Inc., 2015. (Catalog: African collection)
  • Dolkart, Judith and Martha Lucy. Masterworks: The Barnes Foundation. New York, NY : Skira Rizzoli Publications, Inc., 2012, 2013. (Catalog: Ensemble walls)
  • Lucy, Martha and John House. Renoir in the Barnes Foundation. New Haven, CT : Yale University Press in association with The Barnes Foundation, 2012. (Catalog: Renoir collection)
  • Wattenmaker. Richard. American Paintings and Works on Paper in the Barnes Foundation. Merion, PA : Barnes Foundation; New Haven: In association with Yale University Press, 2010. (Catalog: American artists; Recent scholarly biography. Recommended.)