Talk:Accusations of French genocide against Algerians

This article was nominated for deletion. Please review the prior discussions if you are considering re-nomination:

Retarget, 2018 December 4, see discussion.
redirect and merge, 2007-06-29, see discussion.

Wikified as part of the Wikification wikiproject! JubalHarshaw 16:44, 27 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Revriting[edit]

In order to make this article less POV biased and easier to read, I made some major changes: Here is the first step: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Accusations_of_French_genocide_against_Algerians&diff=82069233&oldid=81053271 Next step will be to remove duplicate parts on the article. All help is welcome, please don't revert all without a good reason :) -- lucasbfr ^talk 20:58, 17 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

NPOV[edit]

What do you think now? I feel I have cleaned it a lot -- lucasbfr ^talk 16:33, 22 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

LOL this article is nothing but a Turkish counter-attack versus the French law about the Armenian genocide[edit]

I understand and agree with the Turk POV though, like many French actually, French have no right to judge others history and vice versa. Shame On You 09:04, 25 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

isn't it ironic to feel resented when people make mention of tragedies and pains of other communities and ethnic identities, like jews get angry when you make mention of armenian genocide, and as we see in here, armenians or people who has strong feelings about armenian experience of ethnic cleansing, feel bitter. i don't know is it ok to call french massacres as a genocide but, whatever motive or agenda is the reason behind, try to undermine arguments which work for remembrance of them is never ethical. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 85.103.127.248 (talk • contribs) .

Article for Deletion[edit]

This is a recreation of a deleted article Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Algerian Genocide --Philip Baird Shearer 11:04, 27 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

See also Talk:Genocides_in_history#Algeria this article is a POV fork from a deleted section in that article. --Philip Baird Shearer 19:04, 27 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I have reverted the edit "15:46, 27 November 2006 Robdurbar (much expanded with many more edits than the deleted version" Because the article is not much expanded. It may have had more edits but it has been around for longer It also carries a NPOV template and if one looks at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Algerian Genocide a second page has already been created once and was deleted. This page even has a link from page which was deleted Algerian Genocide and it makes a mockery of the AFD process.--Philip Baird Shearer 18:55, 27 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

To show what I mean, I've put a copy of the deleted version on a subpage. This is significantly different from the current page. The criterion for deletion is A substantially identical copy, by any title, of a page that was deleted as a result of a discussion in Articles for deletion or another XfD process. The two pages are not substantially identical.

/Old Version--Robdurbar 09:24, 28 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This (/Old Version2) from Algerian Genocide Claims ( 09:10, 28 April 2006 . . David Falcon) which was removed at the same time under the same AfD what is significantly different between it and the first version on this page Revision as of 02:06, 20 May 2006 by David Falcon. AFAICT David Falcon waited a month and recreated the page. (S)he did not try to put back in a link to the Genocides in history page, so I was not aware that (s)he had recreated it. By doing so if it is not deleted now as I said before "it makes a mockery of the AFD process" --Philip Baird Shearer 15:04, 28 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Why is this acticle called Accusations of French genocide against Algerian?[edit]

I believe that it is hypocrisy to jump to conclusions in case of the unproven armenian genocide and not do the same thing when the algerian genocide is the matter. I believe that this article's title should be changed to 'The Algerian Genocide'. The fact that many countries do not accept it, including France (no surprise), can be mentioned in the article itself. If there are no objeptions, I'm changing it. Thelorien 20:05, 5 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I respectfully disagree, the number of people calling what happened in Algeria and in Armenia a genocide is very different. The Armenian Genocide was called as such when it was happening, when the Algerian Genocide is a fairly new idea, if I am correct. -- lucasbfr ^talk 12:45, 11 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The Armenian Genocide is a rather well accepted idea now. The Algerian one still isn't defined (assuming it can). End of story. Matthieu 11:20, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

No it is not end of story, we still have Assyrian Genocide and no country in the world recognizes that, there is no set standard for defining what is a genocide or not. Bleh999 20:56, 29 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

ADF[edit]

See Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Accusations of French genocide against Algerians

The result was redirect and merge as per editorial consensus on appropriate talk pages. Not here. — Nearly Headless Nick {C} 11:11, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

human rights in Algeria -- I propose that this article should be merged into "human rights in Algeria" because it would allow the accusations against the French to be set in an historical context of all periods of Algerian history including the post colonial period. Other suggestions were:
Algerian War (Algerian War of Independence)
Torture during the Algerian War

--Philip Baird Shearer 16:07, 30 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I strongly object putting it to human rights in Algeria, that would be the same than putting the story about people asking for compensation for slavery in Human rights and the United States. The subject is briefly mentionned in Algerian War, that might be a good idea to expand a bit with some selected content from this article... I'm not sure about that though. -- lucasbfr ^talk 23:08, 30 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Have you read Human rights and the United States#Racial? Also see Human rights in the Soviet Union. The Algerian War is a non starter as it is already 96k in length and the Torture during the Algerian War is now 76k. So the only place it can be put is in the human rights in Algeria article. --Philip Baird Shearer 19:29, 1 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

There is another option French rule in Algeria. We can add a section called ==Human rights== and place the allegations in there. AFAICT there are only three source accusations in this article. Ahmed Ben Bella, Abdelaziz Bouteflika, and Grand National Assembly of Turkey. The rest is an explanation that is largly covered by the text already in the French rule in Algeria article--Philip Baird Shearer 09:07, 2 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Well the Soviet Union no longer exists, as does the French Algeria, that's why I think that's not relevant to human rights in Algeria. (I admit I missed the racial part on the USA article). I agree with you that 90% of the article can be safely removed since it is covered already. -- lucasbfr ^talk 09:14, 2 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

What do you think trimming the article down to this? -- lucasbfr ^talk 09:36, 2 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Yes something like that but the first obvious change is to replace "Some Algerian intellectuals like Abdulkerim Gazali..." as it is unsourced with the Abdelaziz Bouteflika quote that is. Further it is probably better that Abdelaziz Bouteflika is mentioned first as it predates Abdelaziz Bouteflika polemic and is a stronger statment (genocide not cultural genocide). Also I would loose all but the first heading (what ever we agree that should be -- I like "Human rights" as it allows for a balanced NPOV section to be developed from this rather unbalanced stub of a section). --Philip Baird Shearer 10:42, 2 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, but the aim is to show that not only Bouteflika made that comparison (Fell free to edit the temp article of course). Something interesting, since October 2006 the Turkish Bill fell under the radar. It probably got dropped at some point. -- lucasbfr ^talk 11:49, 2 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I have made changes to Talk:Accusations of French genocide against Algerians/Temp on the assumption that it will go into French rule in Algeria#Human rights. It still needs lots of work but unless it is objectionable to anyone I suggest that it is placed into the article ASAP this can become a redircet to the section in the article and we can work the diffrences there in that article. --Philip Baird Shearer 13:32, 4 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I like the new version, Maybe a title like "2000s controversy" might be better? I'd histmerge it now but I don't like having a work in progress section in the article space. -- lucasbfr ^talk 19:02, 5 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

How about "Post colonial relations" as a title? It can then be expanded to cover other issues as needed. But this is a detail lets get on and merge it into the article French rule in Algeria as the temp article it is definatly mature enough to be in there and its POV is fairly neutral. --Philip Baird Shearer 19:16, 5 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Done, I histmerged the workspace with the original article, then "copy paste" merged with French rule in Algeria. I deleted Talk:Accusations of French genocide against Algerians/Temp. -- lucasbfr ^talk 19:55, 5 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]