Talk:Abdul Matin Chaudhury

Abdul Matin Chaudhury

• What I think should be changed:
• Why it should be changed:
• References supporting the possible change (format using the "cite" button):

Bhadeswar (talk) 17:35, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

References

It is not mentioned in the text of the Article, but on the side panel it is mentioned that AMC was a Minister of Agriculture in Pakistan in 1947-1948. This is a TOTALLY INCORRECT information. No source is cited anywhere as basis of the info. He was never a Minister in Pakistan. This info needs to be deleted. For the 16 months that he was alive (Aug 1947 to Dec 1948), the only two appointments that he held were: 1. Member, Pakistan Constituent Assembly; and 2. Member, Pakistan Pay Commission

• What I think should be changed:
• Why it should be changed:
• References supporting the possible change (format using the "cite" button):

Bhadeswar (talk) 17:40, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

References

Response to edit requests by User:Bhadeswar

Hello @Bhadeswar:, thank you for submitting this edit request for the Abdul Matin Chaudhury article. At present, I have declined your edit request as you have not provided a reference for your proposed changes. As per WP:V, all information on Wikipedia must be verifiable, i.e. have a citation attached to it. In order to improve your chances of your edit request being accepted, I would suggest that you add a reliable citation to the content you wish to be added into the article. You may find Help:Referencing for beginners to be a useful guide to adding citations to Wikipedia content. Also consider filling in the three sections in the preloaded edit request message when you make your request. Once you have added a reference to the content, you may send me a message on my talk page and I will come back and review it again. Please let me know if you have any questions. Thank you, Redtree21 (talk) 08:31, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

Thanks @Redtree21Redtree21

• What I think should be changed: Remove Minister of Agriculture in Pakistan in 1947-1948.

Why it should be changed: Because it is untrue. AMC was never a Minister in Pakistan. Pakistan came into being on 14 August 1947 and he died on 28 December 1948. During this period, only one cabinet was formed in Pakistan with Liaquat Ali Khan as Prime minister. He was not in the cabinet.

Reference: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:First_Pakistani_Cabinet. AMC's name is not on the list. It is not possible to give ref of something that did not exist. Ref should have been given by the person who first inserted this (false) information.

His biography has been written by a SOAS PhD scholar

Shibly, Atful Hye (2011). Abdul Matin Chaudhury (1895-1948) Trusted Lieutenant of Mohammad Ali Jinnah (First ed.). Dhaka: Juned A. Choudhury. pp. 1–156. ISBN 978-984-33-2323-1.

https://books.google.com.bd/books?id=ua3y6g7IHMAC&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false

No where in the biography does this false information appear. Bhadeswar (talk) 14:16, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

@Michael D. Turnbull: @Bhadeswar: I have made the requested changes after further discussion, thank you very much. Redtree21 (talk) 03:43, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

Proposed addition to Article

@Redtree21@Michael B. Turnbill Under Journalism add: In 1921 Abdul Matin Chaudhury wrote an article in the weekly Sylhet Chronicle in favour of the Khilafat Movement. The British government considered it as seditious and sentenced him to one year's rigorous imprisionment, which he served out in the Sylhet jail. ref Shibly, Atful Hye (2011). Abdul Matin Chaudhury (1895-1948) Trusted Lieutenant of Mohammad Ali Jinnah (First ed.). Dhaka: Juned A. Choudhury. p. 23. ISBN 978-984-33-2323-1.

@Bhadeswar: I've added that part and placed the rest of that section in chronological order. Note that your WP:PING for me didn't work as you spelled my username incorrectly but I have this page on my watchlist. I suggest that someone else with access to the source do the other change. Mike Turnbull (talk) 15:45, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

Well done. Thanks. Bhadeswar (talk) 05:51, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

@Michael D. Turnbull Well done. Thanks. Bhadeswar (talk) 06:13, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

Tradeunionism

In order to recover from the rigours of imprisionment, Chaudhury went to Shillong, a hill station 86 miles from Sylhet at an altitude of 4,500 feet, which was the capital of Assam. There he was distressed to see the unfavourable working conditions of the cooks and bearers of the British, and took up their cause. He made an attempt to organise the Khansamas of the European households. The Deputy Commissioner expelled him from Shillong with a notice of 24 hours. This has been referred to as the first attempt to form a trade union in Assam. ref: Guha, Amalendu, Planter Raj to Swaraj (Freedom Struggle and Electoral Politics in Assam, 1826-1947). New Delhi: Indian Council of Historical Research, 1977. p. 128, quoted by Shibly, p. 24-25..

"In 1922, Chaudhury formed the Indian Quater Masters' Union in Calcutta, known as Succuny Union. In 1926 he became its President." ref: Shibly, p. 30. "In 1929, Chaudhury attended the International Labour Conference in Geneva as Technical Adviser to the Indian Labour Delegation." ref: Saeed, Ahmad, Muslim India (1857-1947): A Bibliographical Dictionary. Lahore: Institute of Pakistan Historical Research, 1997. p. 26, as quoted by Shibly, p. 32. Bhadeswar (talk) 15:25, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

@Bhadeswar: @Michael D. Turnbull: I was able to access the necessary sources for this content, and have added it to the article. I have made a few changes to it; I removed the location and altitude information about Shillong as readers will be able to get this from the Shillong article, as well as the second sentence as I could not find this information stated directly in the source (I have defined the word Khansama for readers who might not know it), and I paraphrased the content in the second paragraph as its wording was quite close to that of the original sources. Hopefully these changes have not detracted from the original meaning of the proposed text. Thank you, Redtree21 (talk) 00:26, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

Well done. Thanks. Bhadeswar (talk) 05:53, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

@Redtree21Well done. Thanks. Bhadeswar (talk) 06:19, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

Further addition to Article

@Michael D Turnbull@Redtree21Under Political career, please add: In 1934, he attended the Melbourne Centenary in Australia as the sole representative of the Indian Branch of the Empire Parliamentary Asociation. He travelled by train and boat and wrote a diary which has been published. ref. Shibly, pp. 37-38. Bhadeswar (talk) 06:43, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

@Bhadeswar: @Michael D. Turnbull: I have added this text, and included an extra reference I was able to locate. Thank you, Redtree21 (talk) 10:04, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

@Redtree21@Michael D. TurnbullThanks. The Perth newspaper source was an amazing find. Surendranath Law College is not applicable, please delete. There are 33 photos related to him in the link https://www.geni.com/photo/photos_of_me/4746675767640071497?page=2. It is a genealogical site, with access restricted to members of the family. You may try to access. I could select a few, including a portrait from the young days. A popular one is with Jinnah and my only uncle from March 1946 in Shillong. I could select a few (what is the limit?) and try to upload, or send to you. Bhadeswar (talk) 15:46, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

I've deleted the category. For photos you should think about what is historically significant: Wikipedia is an encyclopaedia, not social media. I would suggest two: one for the infobox showing just AMC alone, preferably from an era when he was active. A second one with Jinnah would be possible only if you own the copyright or can get permission from the copyright holder (usually the photographer) or it is a work of the Indian government, who now license their files in a way we can use here. Try to upload from your own WP account. WP:NONFREE only applies when there are no alternative free possibilities. Mike Turnbull (talk) 16:04, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

@Bhadeswar There is a category attached to the article "Surendranath Law College alumni" but AMC's attendance there is not mentioned in the text. Can you provide a source for that so we can mention it, or should we delete that category? Also, can you provide a photo of AMC? You may not have taken one yourself, given the dates when he was active but appropriate ones you can upload to Wikimedia Commons would be anything where you are the copyright owner by virtue of inheritance through your family. Alternatively, for deceased people, Wikipedia allows any published photo available, for example, on the web or scanned from a newspaper. See WP:NONFREE for all the details. I can help upload such a picture if you can suggest one. Mike Turnbull (talk) 11:38, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

@Bhadeswar: @Michael D. Turnbull: I happened to stumble across a newspaper image of Chaudhury when I was looking for newspaper sources for the Melbourne Centenary. It is at https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/247002785 and is in the Daily Telegraph, published in 1934 in Sydney, Australia. This image is quite dark and grainy, but it may be the best option available. The State Library of New South Wales (the institution holding the original copy of the newspaper) has not provided any information on its copyright status, and Trove does not have copyright information for it either. Australian copyright law, applicable as the image was published in Australia, states that if the author of a work is unknown (as is the case with this image), copyright expires 70 years after publication, meaning the copyright has expired in Australia, and the image is free to use (according to information at https://alacc.org.au/duration-of-copyright/). It is worth noting, however, that Wikimedia Commons (the free media repository from which Wikipedia draws its images) requires public domain images to be in the public domain in their source country and in the United States. As the image was not in the public domain in Australia in 1996, the copyright term in the US is 95 years from publication, leaving five more years in copyright (according to information at https://guides.library.cornell.edu/copyright/publicdomain). This means that the image is not eligible to be uploaded to Commons, so if we choose to use it in this article, it will need to be uploaded as a non-free image and be low resolution, unfortunately. Let me know whether you think this would be a good idea, or perhaps there may be other images that would be better. Redtree21 (talk) 05:10, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

@Redtree21@Michael D. Turnbull Wonderful!. I shall upload couple of photos of which I am holding copyright, in Commons soon. Bhadeswar (talk) 05:25, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

@Redtree21@Michael D. TurnbullI have 3 photos - one portrait and 2 group ready for uploading. The group photos are from family collection. These have been published in the biography: Shibly, Jinnah frontispiece; Saadullah p.71. I am holding copyright of this book. the portrait is a cut out from Saadullah. Please help me where and how to upload. Bhadeswar (talk) 06:44, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

@Bhadeswar Provided you hold the copyright of a photograph, it can be uploaded to Wikimedia Commons, where it will be available for all language editions of Wikipedia. There is an upload Wizard at commons:Special:UploadWizard: do one file at a time and take the default license (CC BY SA 4.0). Do not claim the file as your "own work" since that would imply you took the photo. Instead, state that you inherited the copyright through your family. Follow the instructions carefully, giving all the information about the picture's contents (dates, location etc.) and with a simple filename such as "AMChaudhury" or "Chaudhury with Jinnah" etc. If the photo has already been published in a book, then include the book's name and details. There is no conflict of interest in uploading files, only in placing them into articles, so once you have uploaded the 3 photos, comment back here and I'll add them to the article if they are suitable and I'll use the photo of AMC alone as his Wikidata item (some Wikis take photos automatically from Wikidata). Mike Turnbull (talk) 12:40, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

@Michael D. TurnbullI have uploaded 3 photos titled Abdul Matin Chaudhury, Jinnah visits Shillong, and Saadullah cabinet, under the category People by occupation. Bhadeswar (talk) 15:11, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

@Bhadeswar I don't see any uploads in your contribution log at Commons. Did you use another username? Please link the files here if you can. Mike Turnbull (talk) 15:24, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

@Michael D. TurnbullI did not use my user page, just went straight to Commons and it showed "loaded", and I answered all the details. No wonder, when I clicked Publish, nothing happened. I shall repeat with user name. Bhadeswar (talk) 15:52, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

@Michael D. Turnbull Published. Bhadeswar (talk) 16:49, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

Thanks, I've added AMC's photo to the article and wikidata: can you provide the year that photo was taken, so it can be the caption in the infobox of the article? Also, could you go back to the filepages where you uploaded the two other photos and overwrite them with versions that don't have the captions? I have added the information in the captions to the file descriptions. When we put images into articles, we would use text-based captions, as text within the picture itself is not WP:ACCESSIBLE to some readers (see that link). It would be possible to crop the images to remove the captions but it would be easier if you could upload replacements (there is a link to do that on each file's page). Mike Turnbull (talk) 17:24, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

@Michael D. Turnbull Portrait in 1938. Replacement group photos without captions will be uploaded tomorrow. Bhadeswar (talk) 17:39, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

@Michael D. Turnbull New versions of 2 photos without captions uploaded. Bhadeswar (talk) 08:47, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

Placed in the article. Please add any further requests in a new section here. Mike Turnbull (talk) 12:43, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

@Michael D. Turnbull Excellent. Many thanks. Bhadeswar (talk) 14:53, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

Add additional information

@Redtree21@Michael D Turnbull I would like to add: He attended the 1st Round Table Conference in London (November 1930 - January 1931) as Private Secretary to Sir Muhammad Akbar Hydari, who represented Hyderabad as its Finance Minister. ref: Khaliquzzaman, Chaudhury, Pathway to Pakistan. Lahore: Longman, 1961. p. 108, quoted by Shibly pp. 42-43. Bhadeswar (talk) 07:02, 6 March 2024 (UTC)

 Done, along with additional material from Shibly and elsewhere. Mike Turnbull (talk) 16:50, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

Add additional infrormation

@Mike turnbillUnder Political Career please add; On 3 June 1947, Lord Mountbatten announced the Partition of India on 14-15 August 1947; and a Referendum in Sylhet District and in the North West Frontier Province for the population to decide whether to join India or Pakistan. Both Sylhet and NWFP voted for Pakistan. Chaudhury was the President of the Sylhet Referendum Board or the Muslim League. Ref. Shibly pp. 135-137. '

Under Journalism, please add: Jugabheri is still running in Sylhet as a daily news paper. https://dailyjugabheri.com''''' Bhadeswar (talk) 15:21, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

@mike Turnbull I would like to add a footnote #11 re. the Australia travel diary under Political Career , after the words " a diary which has been published", but make a mistake in adding the ref. Could you help?/'

Sorry for the earlier wrong username. Bhadeswar (talk) 05:14, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

@Bhadeswar Your WP:PING is still not working as it needs to use my full username but is not required since I have this page on my watchlist. Please don't edit the article directly, as you are introducing errors. I'll be tackling the suggested edits later today based on my own reading of the sources you have provided. Mike Turnbull (talk) 12:44, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

@Michael D. TurnbullPlease add the ISBN 978-984-95295-9-0 to the biography in Bengali by Lt Col Syed Ali Ahmad Retd. published from Sylhet in 2021, which contains the Australia diary written in Bengali, as Appendix 4, pp. 159-184. Bhadeswar (talk) 13:09, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

Will do. I have found another interesting book reference regarding AMC's support for the abolition of the Line System (now added). There doesn't seem to be an article about that in the English Wikipedia, which I find surprising. Is their one in the Bengali language version? Also, can you provide a full citation for the Jugabheri website, please. The link you supplied goes to a Bengali-language page I can't translate. We need to use {{cite web}} with as many parameters as possible filled in (see template link). Mike Turnbull (talk) 13:45, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

@Michael D. Turnbull1. The ISBN for the 2021 Bengali biography does not seem to work out as well as the Shibly version. You may omit the no., but not the book. 2. The duo profs, Dev and Lahiri, had written several valuable articles and the book on Line System between 1978-1985. These are listed in Shibly's bibliography, Appendix B, p. 169. The LS was the most important issue for AMC and Maulana Bhashani (and indeed, Saadullah) 1937-47. Shibly has devoted two chapters 6 & 7, pp.95-140 to this issue. Without LS their political careers are incomplete. 3. As I mentioned earlier, I did not know that an article on AMC existed in WP, till recently when I was introduced to you. I do not know who wrote the first version, may be some well-intentioned novice. 4. The contents of Shibly 2011 in English, and Ahmad 2021 in Bengali are the same. 5. https://www.allnewspaperbangla.com/all-daily-local-newspapers-sylhet/ lists Jugabheri as a current daily. Bhadeswar (talk) 14:34, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

I found a suitable link for the Line System, which I have added and I'll also now add some specific reference to it: maybe from Dev + Lahiri, given we are using Shibly a lot for other things. The ISBN is correct for Ahmad's book, although as it is Bangladeshi I can find only one source (in a Google search). There is no need to do more. Thanks for the newspapers link: that's a better source as it is secondary and in English. Mike Turnbull (talk) 14:41, 31 March 2024 (UTC)