Talk:2020 Tour de France

Completely in France?

Is all of this year's Tour ridden on French soil? If so, it could me mentioned. I find that it happened in 2013 and before that in 2003. It is noteworthy – if it is correct. :) Fomalhaut76 (talk) 15:04, 8 September 2020 (UTC)

Hey Fomalhaut76! Great question. I'm not sure how noteworthy it is that the Tour is ridden entirely within France this year; traditionally this was the case, but in more recent editions the Tour has often made small forays into other countries. Perhaps something more like "This is the first year the Tour de France was held entirely within France since 2018" might be better worth including...this is something that might need a little more discussion. Benjamin112 (talk) 16:00, 8 September 2020 (UTC)

Well, it is noteworthy enough for the Tour organizers to mention it on their website: "From Nice to Paris, the course of the 2020 Tour de France will never cross any border of France." So if you want to include it, that's a good source.--EdgeNavidad (Talk · Contribs) 20:05, 10 September 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for the input; I will include it in the appropriate section. Benjamin112 (talk) 20:33, 10 September 2020 (UTC)

Actually, I think "first since 2018" is not really that special, that's only two years ago... Why the focus on that? Or do I miss something? EdgeNavidad (Talk · Contribs) 17:10, 11 September 2020 (UTC)

Furthermore: it is even wrong, as the sixteenth stage in 2018 briefly visited Spain. I will remove the part about 2018. --EdgeNavidad (Talk · Contribs) 13:12, 18 September 2020 (UTC)

Keep/remove teams column in stages table?

Hey all,

Just saw someone else add the teams column to the stage characteristics and winners table. Generally, this isn't a feature of that table for other races in the past, so should it be kept or removed? Thanks. Benjamin112 (talk) 13:20, 12 September 2020 (UTC)

It should be removed. It's unnecessary and hasn't been included in previous years. Edin75 (talk) 15:55, 12 September 2020 (UTC)

If it would be included (which I would personally not prefer), it should be clarified. Is this the team that won the daily team classification? Or is it the team that the stage winner is in? --EdgeNavidad (Talk · Contribs) 17:42, 12 September 2020 (UTC)

Should there be a consensus on what to do about "pre-loaded" results?

"Pre-loaded," for lack of a better term, referring to when results are added (even by hidden comments) before they are made official. Yes, all the jersey winners are all but confirmed, but I feel like this sets a sort of worrying precedent in which these edits are made earlier and earlier; it need not be said that if "pre-loading" results was the norm, I would have already done that yesterday when I updated the classification tables. It might be worth pointing out that, technically, such edits would be unsourced at the time of publishing and thus reverting them would be the right thing to do, even if we all know they are almost certainly bound to be true later. Perhaps I'm being too much of a stickler here, so I would like to hear some opinions on this matter. Benjamin112 (talk) 14:51, 20 September 2020 (UTC)

I think any consensus is unenforceable. Too many people want to add results before the race is finished. One option that could work would be to (semi)-protect the article, but I would prefer not to do that. EdgeNavidad (Talk · Contribs) 18:42, 20 September 2020 (UTC)

Comparison to Merckx

Before I removed it, the article said that Pogacar's achievement was exceeded by Merckx, because Merckx would have won the young rider classification, and won "every competition there was to win as a young rider". Several things about this statement are wrong, too many to put in a comment, so I put them here.

• Merckx would not have been considered a "Young rider" in 1969. Relevant competitions of that era (1968 Golden Arrow, 1970/71 Grand Prix des Jeunes, 1975 Young rider classification) used neo-profs, which were defined as 23 years or younger, or not yet two years professional. Merckx was not a neo-prof in 1969.
• Merckx did not win "every competition" in 1969, he did not win the intermediate sprints classification.
• In 1969, the points classification system was different than now: currently sprinters have a big advantage because flat stages give more points. If the 1969 rules would still be used now, Pogacar would have won the green jersey classification. The fact that Merckx was able to win green and yellow in the same years, and that this did not happen in the last 30 years, says more about the evolution of the rules than about Merckx's dominance. If you want to apply 2020's rules on the young rider classification to Merckx, but keep the 1969 rules on the points classification, you are cherrypicking.

It's impossible to compare Merckx from 1969 to Pogacar from 2020 in this way. Stick to the facts: Pogacar is the first rider to win yellow, white and polka-dot in the same year. --EdgeNavidad (Talk · Contribs) 09:12, 23 September 2020 (UTC)

Completely agree with you. I removed the statement on the basis that you can't compare to something which didn't exist at the time, but had it reverted. I also took out a comment on the 1969 Tour article saying that had the white jersey competition existed then, Merckx would have won it. It didn't and he didn't! We can't go back and re-cast results from a different time in the light of modern compeitions. You could say that Gino Bartali "would have" won an imaginary young riders' jersey in 1938 (23 when the Tour started) in addition to the GC and the mountains classification, but its pointless to do so and not far off OR either.--Bcp67 (talk) 11:24, 23 September 2020 (UTC)

I understand what you're saying entirely and by no means am I trying to take anything away from Pogacar or what he has done during this Tour. It's just that saying he is the first rider, or the only rider to achieve this is a bit misleading.... It implies it has never been done before and that he is the first rider to accomplish such a feat (which would be worth noting) when in reality what Merckx did in 1969 is so far above and beyond what Pogacar did in 2020 that it is worth noting..... You're making it seem like this was an incredibly historic achievement that has never happened before.... Which it hasn't, no rider has done what he has done winning those exact Jersey's, but one rider did achieve something far, far more difficult and that's winning Yellow, Polka Dot, Green, Team, Combative, the tour itself by over 15 minutes and was under the age of 25 at the time.... Ok, it's never been done before, but something far better and far harder has been done before, just don't say anything about it. And yes if Gino Bartali would have won all of those awards in 1938 you could have added in that

"only Eddy Merckx in 1969 and Gino Bartali in 1938 have completed achievements similar to what Tadej Pogacar did in 2020 Raleigh80Z90Faema69 (talk) 13:58, 23 September 2020 (UTC)

I edited it in with Bartali and Merckx being compared to what Pogacar did in 2020.... If it can be agreed that this is accurate and true, then it adds some good history, if not, remove it. Raleigh80Z90Faema69 (talk) 14:07, 23 September 2020 (UTC)

I only mentioned Bartali as another imaginary example of someone who didn't win something which never existed at the time - there could be others for all I know but I'm not bothering to find out. None of them need to be mentioned here. Merckx won classifications in 1969 which existed at the time, Pogacar has won classifications this year which existed this year. Pocagar is the only rider to have won the GC, KoM and young rider in the same year, there's no "might have" done this and that to compare it to.--Bcp67 (talk) 14:24, 23 September 2020 (UTC)

Raleigh80Z90Faema69 I should also add, I can understand your viewpoint - you are trying to provide historical perspective and say that while Pogacar has achieved a historic feat this year, there are other performances which would at least equate to what he did. (Recent-ism is always an issue for me in wikipedia) but I don't think it's the right way to point that out.--Bcp67 (talk) 14:32, 23 September 2020 (UTC)

Yes that's a good point, and not only that but those familiar with Tour History know that it doesn't even have to be mentioned.... I was more thinking along the lines of newer fans who wouldn't know the significance of winning the way he won. Plus, I do use any excuse I can get to mention previous Tours in modern ones as it's a good way to get readers to explore Raleigh80Z90Faema69 (talk) 15:59, 23 September 2020 (UTC)

Surely there must be some article that compares Pogacar's achiement to Merckx's achievement. I tried to find some, but didn't find anything in two minutes, except for a blog article that made the error of applying the "26 year"-rule to the imaginary 1969 young rider classification. If a reliable source makes such a comparison, I 100% support adding it to this article. --EdgeNavidad (Talk · Contribs) 20:31, 23 September 2020 (UTC)

I'll do a bit of looking around for this, although American Google is terrible with reliable cycling articles aside from the regular magazines...

I think it's because what Merckx did so far exceeds what Pogacar did there's nothing to compare, although had Pogacar also won the Points classification or the overall combativity award it would be a different story.... Either way this also made me wonder if Fignon, LeMond, Ullrich or Contador won multiple jersey's like this in their first Tour Raleigh80Z90Faema69 (talk) 20:45, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

OK, for you a list of riders who won three official classifications in one Tour, excluding team classifications:

• 1939: S. Maes won the general classification (yellow jersey), the mountains classification and the complete rider classification.
• 1969: Merckx won the general classification (yellow jersey), points classification (green jersey), combination classification (white jersey), mountains classification (patch on jersey) and combativity classification.
• 1970: Merckx won the general classification (yellow jersey), combination classification (white jersey), mountains classification (patch on jersey) and combativity classification.
• 1971: Merckx won the general classification (yellow jersey), points classification (green jersey) and combination classification (white jersey).
• 1972: Merckx won the general classification (yellow jersey), points classification (green jersey) and combination classification (white jersey).
• 1974: Merckx won the general classification (yellow jersey), combination classification (white jersey) and the supercombativity award.
• 1977: Thurau won the young rider classification (white jersey), the prize for most beloved rider, and the prize for rider with the best sports knowledge. They had some ridiculous awards in that time.
• 1981: Hinault won the general classification (yellow jersey), combination classification, and the supercombativity award.
• 1983: Fignon won the general classification (yellow jersey), young rider classification (white jersey), and the Grand Prix TF1 (sort of combination classification, patch on jersey).
• 2020: Pogacar won the general classification (yellow jersey), mountains classification (polka-dot jersey), and young rider classification (white jersey).

So actually your source is wrong (not your mistake): the last one to win three distinctive jerseys was not Merckx in 1969, but Merckx in 1972. --EdgeNavidad (Talk · Contribs) 13:37, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

That's outstanding lolol The Rider With the Best Sports Knowledge!!! I think they used to have a "most gentlemenly rider" award as well.... The combination Jersey was a pretty serious award at the time right? In that case should it be changed from 69 to 72? Raleigh80Z90Faema69 (talk) 20:05, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

It does show 3 "jersey" icons next to Merckx's name in 72 so I suppose it's appropriate to change it Raleigh80Z90Faema69 (talk) 00:58, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

Wikipedia is more accurate than Encyclopedia Britannica

Hey TDF editors, check this out.... The official Encyclopedia Brittanica article on Greg LeMond --- https://www.britannica.com/biography/Greg-LeMond

It says he finished 3rd in the 1983 TDF & then in 1984 he finished 2nd to Bernard Hinault before winning the Tour himself in 1985. Lololol I'm not kidding check it out!

I tried notifying them to tell them of these mistakes but they make you pay $8.99 a month in order to 'give feedback' on an article..... This has nothing to do with the 2020TDF but I figured you TDF editors might want to know you do more due diligence than the supposed best of the best I suppose I'll go put this on Lemond's talk page as well Raleigh80Z90Faema69 (talk) 21:43, 14 October 2020 (UTC)