Talk:2013 Swiss executive pay initiative

This article was nominated for deletion on 5 March 2013. The result of the discussion was not to delete.

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This is not the same page as Swiss referendum, 2013[edit]

This page should not be merged, because the general referendum page covers three distinct questions. This page corresponds to the German, French and other language pages on the same issue - those pages cover this particular question. It merits its own page because it is more specific, and it does not duplicate, but expands on material in the main 2013 referendum question page. Thanks. Wik idea 18:03, 5 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

It should clearly be merged (as the other editor who put the tag on the page agreed). No other Swiss referendum has a separate article. I'll initiate an AfD if you revert again. Number 5 7 18:21, 5 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

If merge a page, than better the the "page Swiss referendum" as that page is materially incorrect. There is no Swiss referendum 2013! And a referendum according to Swiss law is something else than a iniciative! But the "title Swiss referendum "against corporate Ripp-offs" is wrong. It is not a referendum but a popular iniciative!DidiWeidmann (talk) 22:04, 6 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The thing is, that the word "referendum" is the appropriate English translation - even though it doesn't match the meaning in German! Explained when I changed back the name. Wik idea 10:02, 8 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Initiative translation[edit]

Usually we would phrase a law's requirements with the verb "shall" (eg the directors shall only receive...) while German does not do this when it uses the imperative tense in the law. I can give examples from the BGB official translation, or the Deutsche Corporate Governance Code. All okay if I rephrase accordingly?

Also, as I understand, Swiss company law does not require a two-tier company board. Is that right? What's the status of the Advisory Council? Wik idea 10:02, 8 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Propose rename[edit]

The present title, Swiss referendum "against rip-off salaries", violates so many provisions of WP:TITLE that it's hard to beleive that anyone would suggest it. If the article is kept, it should be moved to Swiss executive pay referendum, 2013 or perhaps 2013 Swiss executive pay referendum (closer to a standard English language construction). — Arthur Rubin (talk) 03:24, 9 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thomas Minder states that the English translation of "Gegen die Abzockerei" is "against rip-off salaries". See his assistant's email near the bottom of Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Swiss_referendum_"against_corporate_Rip-offs"_of_2013 Smirkingman (talk) 15:12, 9 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Look at the provisions of WP:TITLE. The English translation of the (foreign language) term does not meet the criteria. WP:COMMONNAME suggests that the name should be that which is most used in English reliable sources. The current name (with the quotes) is not. It also isn't suggested by any of the other 4 guidelines. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 16:00, 9 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

What would be considered "a reliable English source" in a translation situation like this? Smirkingman (talk) 16:47, 9 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The standard title format for referendum articles is "Demonym subject referendum, year", so your first suggestion is correct (and where it was previously located). Number 5 7 16:13, 9 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Now that the AfD is resolved there remains the rename.

1. This article is about Minder's initiative, which gave rise to the referendum, see my remark below.

2. The initiative only became well-known outside Switzerland once it had passed the vote on the 3rd of March 2013. As such, there is no English common name. It has been referred to by a variety of titles using various combinations of: [curbs], [pay], [executive], [limits], fat-cat], [rip-offs], [bonus], [CEO], and so on. None are authoritative, there is no consensus and no reliable sources have been proposed.

3. The initiative's primary target is bonuses, not pay per se, thus the word remuneration is preferable to pay and would seem more adequate as it follows the official French and Italian titles.

4. Whilst the year in the title is necessary for a referendum, it should not be in the title of an initiative, which is unique in its own right.

5. The word executive isn't in any of the official titles (DE, FR, IT).

Personally I'd prefer Minder's title and call it Swiss initiative against rip-off salaries, but I can understand objections to rip-off as it is border-line slang. Or else, staying in the spirit, Swiss initiative against excessive remunerations à la française and mention Minder's title in the body? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Smirkingman (talk • contribs) 20:41, 14 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, of the eight links you posted above, six contain refererences to executive pay and one refers to CEO pay:

Swiss back executive pay curbs in referendum

Voters in Swiss referendum back curbs on executives' pay and bonuses

Swiss back referendum to limit executive pay

Swiss voters tighten country's limits on executive pay

Swiss Limits on Executive Pay Less Than Meets the Eye/Swiss voters get their say on executive pay

Voters in Swiss referendum back curbs on executives' pay and bonuses

Swiss OK system to rein in CEO pay

Personally I think the common name is pretty clear. Number 5 7 21:02, 14 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

As you show yourself, there is no consensus. Several titles have been proposed above. Would you be so good as to state exactly the title you propose and your reliable source? Or perhaps you're just here for a good argument? >;-) Smirkingman (talk) 21:27, 14 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I've just given you six sources that refer to executive pay. My preferred title is the first one proposed by Arthur Rubin, i.e. Swiss executive pay referendum, 2013. I'm not here for a good argument, I'm here to ensure that Wikipedia naming formats are followed. Number 5 7 22:07, 14 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

What is your "reliable source"? Smirkingman (talk) 07:48, 15 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The six above, plus probably many more that could easily be found referring to executive pay, e.g. the BBC, the Wall Street Journal, Bloomberg. Number 5 7 08:42, 15 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

"Abzockerei", best translated as "rip-off", is a very informal German word - it wasn't really customary to use it in any kind of more formal context. But the proponents of Swiss popular initiatives may use a name of their choosing for the initiative, which in this case is indeed Eidgenössische Volksinitiative "gegen die Abzockerei". This is the official German name of the initiative on which the referendum was held. However, there are also official French and Italian names. The French one is Initiative populaire "contre les rémunérations abusives" and the Italian one: Iniziativa popolare federale "contro le retribuzioni abusive". So, the French and the Italian title use less informal language than the German one. However, as the initiative originated in the German-speaking part of Switzerland and is the creation of a native German-speaking Swiss (Thomas Minder), I think it's reasonable to use the German name as the base of a translation. And if this is chosen, "against rip-off salaries" is near to a an accurate translation of "gegen die Abzockerei". However, even more accurate would be just "against rip-offs", as "gegen die Abzockerei" doesn't explicitly contains the "salaries" part. That is different in the French and Italian versions (containing "rémunérations", "retribuzioni"). In any case, I would follow Smirkingman (further below) who points out that this is a popular initiative which led to a referendum - so, the 100% accurate English translation of the official German Eidgenössische Volksinitiative "gegen die Abzockerei" would be: Swiss federal popular initiative against rip-offs, IMHO. ("Eidgenössisch" translates as "Swiss on a federal level", "Volksinitiative" is "popular initiative" and "gegen die Abzockerei" is "against rip-offs", as said above). - However, if there is really an established and widely used English translation, we surely could also use this. Gestumblindi (talk) 00:16, 15 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

We don't need reliable sources for a descriptive title, when the current title (an English translation of a foreign-language descriptive title) doesn't meet Wikipedia style guidelines. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 16:04, 20 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

As I see it, Swiss referendum "against rip-off salaries" isn't quite a translation of a descriptive title, but something like a mixup between an attempt to translate the official name of the initiative (the "against rip-off salaries" part) and an erroneous choice of "referendum" when the article is in fact dealing with the initiative (on which the referendum was held). The German Wikipedia, on the other hand, is just using the official title of the initiative, Eidgenössische Volksinitiative «gegen die Abzockerei», i.e. not attempting to create a descriptive title. Gestumblindi (talk) 18:08, 20 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Difference between Referendum and Initiative[edit]

Swiss people's initiatives cause referendums to be held; they are two different things. Could this naming dispute not be resolved by making this page's topic the 2008 initiative itself, as distinct from the 2013 referendum that it caused? This differentiation exists both in the French WP [Initiative populaire «Contre la construction de minarets»] and the German WP [Eidgenössische Volksinitiative «gegen_die_Abzockerei»] (and quoted titles are admissible >;-). There is a precedent in the English WP: Gene_Protection_Initiative. Smirkingman (talk) 17:24, 9 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Move discussion in progress[edit]

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Swiss minaret referendum, 2009 which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 11:00, 24 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]