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Should redirect to Libertarian socialism[edit]

 – Гармонический Мир (talk) 07:59, 17 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

This redirect gives the false impression that only social anarchism is socialist, rather that all anarchism being a form of libertarian socialism; indeed the form of libertarian socialism. Unless somebody can show me that someone other than anarcho-capitalists used this term to refer specifically to social anarchism, I stand by my belief. The arch-individualist Benjamin Tucker used the term anarchistic socialism. As far as I know, terms like this are used to refer by another name to libertarian socialism, or the libertarian-wing of socialism and the anarchist-wing of libertarian socialism since every anarchist is a libertarian socialist, but not every libertarian socialist is necessarely an anarchist (see libertarian Marxists, etc.). Terms like socialist anarchism, just like anarcho-socialism, are mainly used vis-à-vis authoritarian, state, or just non-anarchist socialism. From my research it seems that only anarcho-capitalists refer to terms like socialist anarchism specifically to social anarchism.--82.63.72.187 (talk) 15:48, 5 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  • I don't feel strongly about this redirect giving a false impression. This conversation is related to the conversation on whether libertarian socialism itself should be redirected to anarchism (or a section whereof) per its primary use as a synonym. I could support a retargeting of anarchist socialism to anarchism by the same logic. We base our coverage not by exceptions but how the topical phrase is commonly used, so exceptions are something that can be addressed in the existing overview article.
Also for what it's worth, talk pages of redirects generally see few visitors. If you want to suggest a retargeting or deletion of a redirect, WP:RfD is the place to go (and the Wikipedia:Twinkle tool can automate the nomination). czar 15:41, 17 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Czar: Thanks for doing that and for your response. I'm always the IP, but I'm using my account, now that I got back. I believe that it's misleading this to be a redirect to social anarchism for several reasons:
  1. Doesn't social anarchism mainly refer to Bookchin, or wasn't even a term he himself created in the c. 1980s?
  2. Arch-individualist Benjamin Tucker described himself as anarchistic socialist, proving my point that these terms are used to refer to the anarchist-wing of the socialist movement as well as used vis-à-vis authoritarian/state socialism. Indeed, only anarcho-capitalists use these terms to refer specifically to social anarchism because they declare themselves individualist anarchists, ignoring that these individualists were just as socialists as any other anarchist, even if for whatever reason they, just like post-left anarchists, may had issues with the term socialism because they saw it inevitably associated with state socialism.
  3. I personally believe libertarian socialism should stay and as a result these redirects should all point there, or the main anarchism page rather than social anarchism. Althought libertarian socialism is also used as a synonym of anarchism and anarchism is the main wing of the libertarian socialist movement, not all libertarian socialists or even libertarian socialism itself are anarchists. For instance, there're libertarian Marxists and minarchist libertarian socialists like Peter Hain as well as councilism, mutualism and left communist and syndicalist variants.
  4. All anarchism is anti-capitalist and libertarian socialism (but as I have stated above, not all libertarian socialism is anarchist). As far as I know, mutualism, syndicalism, etc. are all forms of socialism in the broad meaning of the term and people like Proudhon and Tucker identified as socialists (what they had in commom was their opposition to communism). The main issue wasn't ever socialism (other than state socialism which they all agree to oppose) but communism and between certain anarcho-communists and individualists; and that was mainly in the late 19th century and early 20th century, leading to anarchism without adjective and synthesis anarchism.
Am I wrong? That's what I know from what I have studied and researched about the topic. The point is that it's POV to redirect them all to social anarchism because it's mainly anarcho-capitalists that use these terms to refer specifically to social anarchism, like social anarchism is socialist anarchism and individualist anarchism is anarcho-capitalism; which is totally wrong and ignores the whole history of anarchism. All other anarchists and scholars use it to refer to libertarian socialism or the anarchist-wing of the socialist movement, often used vis-à-vis authoritarian/state socialism; and therefore they should all either redirect to libertarian socialism or anarchism, but not to social anarchism for the reasons I have stated above.--Davide King (talk) 18:49, 17 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • re: social anarchism and Bookchin, the scope of social anarchism is fuzzy but it's primarily used to refer to the entire left tradition of anarchism, from Proudhon through Bakunin/Kropotkin through Bookchin, perhaps retcon'd as a term to distinguish from anarcho-capitalism? If it's helpful, note that many of our high-level articles on anarchism simply copy-paste a lot of content from similar articles, so there isn't a lot of social anarchism necessarily specific to that topic—it's more giving an overview of the broad concept known as social anarchism. There might be better way to organize all of the content under a different umbrella. This said, for better or for worse, "social anarchism" is the term/topic that WP currently uses to refer to the socialist tradition that overlaps with anarchism, hence the current redirects under discussion.
re: Tucker, the terms that he used to describe himself aren't necessarily the terms by which they are known now, i.e., how we know Tucker as an individualist, per his current lede and sourcing. Any historical links between individualist anarchism and the socialist tradition would be better covered in the former article.
re: redirecting these to libertarian socialism, while I wouldn't personally do that, I wouldn't contest it either. My question would be what distinguishes the libertarian socialism article from the social anarchism article. (I'm afraid the answer would be "very little", which is why I think it warrants merger.) Put another way, "libertarian socialism" may have a variety of usages, so its article should either reflect sources that discuss this variety or it should be reduced to a simple disambiguation that points to the various kinds of libertarian socialism. My understanding is that its association (in sources) with anarchism far outweighs its association with any other kind of political philosophy influenced by classic libertarianism (anarchism) and socialism. That would be on the libertarian Marxism and minarchist pages to clarify.

All anarchism is anti-capitalist and libertarian socialism (but as I have stated above, not all libertarian socialism is anarchist).

Do you have a source for this? As Cinadon already said, the umbrella of anarchism can reasonably include free exchange (e.g., individualists) with minimal interpersonal obligation alongside the belief that formal hierarchy/state is unjust. But also to your point elsewhere that "libertarian" has different historical connotations than used today, the same for the word "socialist".
Sounds like the most reasonable conclusion to your concerns would be to suggest sources on the respective articles that you think insufficiently reflect their historical affiliation with socialism. czar 19:37, 17 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • On second thought, I hear your point about Bookchin. I don't see the term "social anarchism" actually having much currency outside his use of the term and the journal, so it looks like Wikipedia is the aberrant in this case. I think it would be sufficient to cover "anarchism's relationship with socialism" within anarchism and redirect social anarchism there. (And my stance on redirecting libertarian socialism is laid out on its talk page.) czar 20:04, 17 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Czar: I think the issue is that anarcho-capitalism simply isn't generally considered part of anarchism, otherwhise why would you talk of the entire left tradition of anarchism when the the anarchism page itself refers to anarchism being usually placed on the far-left of the political spectrum? See "The Trouble With Socialist Anarchism" on Mises as an example of its use by anarcho-capitalists.
That doesn't preclude Tucker being referred to as both a socialist (in the libertarian sense) and an individualist anarchist, does it? I'm using socialism in the broad sense (an effort to abolish the exploitation of Labour by Capital), including free-market socialism, which is what certain individualists and mutualists supported; see also the whole left-wing market anarchist tradition which refers to itself as socialist. As far as I know, one anarchist economics issue is between decetralised socialist planning vs. free-market socialism. Anarcho-communism would be the first, mutualism the latter and anarcho-syndicalism a mix of both, etc.; it isn't socialism the issue but rather which type and in what form. If you mean socialism by abolition of the wage system, then obviously not all anarchism is socialism since many currents and individuals supported wage labour while opposing wage slavery, even if anarcho-communists may see the two as the same thing. I could be wrong though.
That's my problem; I'm not an expert with sources and I wish there was a way for someone to help me do the research to see whether there're reliable sources that could support or reject my proposals. It's just that's all I know, read and researched for; I just don't remember where I first red these things. One, recent example would be the Anarchist FAQ, but I guess that wouldn't be enough.
See "Are anarchists socialists" and "Why "Social" Anarchism". The latter states social anarchism was a term that first emerged in the late 19th century as a way to distinguish the anarchist mainstream from various individualist or egoist strains which promoted a kind of anti-social worldview opposed to building popular movements and in many cases content to merely live freely within the capitalist state system rather than doing anything to get rid of it. What are non-anarcho-capitalist sources that specifically refer to social anarchism with terms like anarchist socialism, etc.? If not redirected to libertarian socialism, then these terms should all simply redirect to anarchism.--Davide King (talk) 20:30, 17 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  • If not redirected to libertarian socialism, then these terms should all simply redirect to anarchism.

    Agreed!
The Anarchist FAQ and most stuff at theanarchistlibrary.org are partisan sources, so we try to use secondary sources more detached from the subject, but I'm not contesting your overall point. I think the distinction you're after is some kind of modification to the lede in Anarchism that explains the political philosophy that advocates for voluntary, cooperative institutions in place of hierarchical associations, and generally invokes a tradition of far-left socialism and anti-authoritarianism. I think it would be a harder sell to say it's generally anti-Capitalist too but I recommend having those conversations separately as the former should be, per its sourcing, indisputable.
re: the relationship between socialism and anarchism, a relevant quote:

It is worth considering, however, that during the nineteenth century the terms 'Socialism' and 'Anarchism' were often used interchangeably. Although there is significant gulf between ideas of remodeling the state and those that aim to remove it altogether, many public figures and press reports of the time ignored this distinction; indeed, both Socialism and Anarchism were seen as a grave social and political threats in the public and media consciousness.
— Kemp, Michael (2018). "Beneath a White Tower". Bombs, Bullets and Bread: The Politics of Anarchist Terrorism Worldwide, 1866–1926. Jefferson, North Carolina: McFarland. p. 180. ISBN 978-1-4766-7101-7. {{cite book}}: External link in |chapterurl= (help); Unknown parameter |chapterurl= ignored (|chapter-url= suggested) (help)

so re: socialism as an effort to abolish the exploitation of Labour by Capital, since there are many competing/overlapping definitions of "socialism", the term loses its general referential usefulness and hence we tend to use it only with qualification on type
czar 14:33, 18 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Czar: Yes, "and generally invokes a tradition of far-left socialism and anti-authoritarianism" was what I meant and would be perfect. I'm surprised you said "it would be a harder sell to say it's generally anti-Capitalist too"; I thought the "harder sell" was the socialist part. Anyway, libertarian socialism was used to refer to anarchism and to show its opposition to authoritarian and state socialism; however, it's my understanding that by the 20th century it expanded to include and mean also non-anarchist forms of libertarian, anti-statist socialism and libertarian Marxism, although its anarchist-wing remains the most prominent. Just like libertarian communism, the original libertarianism, mainly refers to anarcho-communism, I'd say it expanded to include council communism, left communism and libertarian Marxism; I'm more of an inclusionist, so I'm not opposed to have Libertarian communism, Libertarian socialism and Social anarchism articles and improve them. I just believe that as things stand right now, it's more appropriate to redirect these to Libertarian socialism (it's my understanding that it's mainly those who recognise anarcho-capitalism that use these terms in relation to social anarchism to distinguish it from capitalist/individualist anarchism; I've always seen these terms being used to refer to the anarchist-wing of libertarian socialism rather than a specific branch such as social anarchism. As a Marxist and market abolitionism, but they still defined themselves as socialists or declared their opposition to capitalism. I talked more about this here and here.--Davide King (talk) 08:39, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Гармонический Мир: Only those who recognise anarcho-capitalism as anarchism use these terms to refer to it to social anarchism, wrongly dividing social anarchism as anarchist socialism or socialist anarchism and individualist anarchism as pro-capitalist. See Per Bylund's "The Trouble With Socialist Anarchism". The American individualist anarchist benjamin Tucker literally used anarchistic socialism to refer to his philosophy. It's my understanding that all anarchism is socialist, more specifically libertarian socialism; but all all libertarianism socialism or socialists are anarchists.
While there're some issues and debates on whether considereing individualist anarchism socialist, anti-capitalist, or capitalist, I would say it's still within the anarchist understanding of socialism and anti-capitalist. Many individualist anarchists called themselves socialists and were part of the labour movement; they rejected things like profit and usury and wanted to socialise capital. Whether that's considered socialism or simply anti-capitalism is debated; the social anarchist writers of An Anarchist FAQ, although as stated by @Czar: are "partisan sources", consider it within the anarchist understanding of socialism and thus socialist(s). You shouldn't worry about these terms being redirected to Libertarian socialism. As you said and I agree, "The concept of libertarian socialism is broader, it also includes, for example, libertarian Marxism", libertarian socialism mainly originated from and referred to anarchism; or, in other words, the anarchist-wing of socialism. You shouldn't be worried about this because it won't mean that libertarian socialism is only anarchism; these terms refers to the anarchist-wing of libertarian socialism and that's why they should redirected there.
Finally, it's my understanding that socialism isn't really the issue between social anarchists and individualist anarchists. Their issue is whether there should be any organisation, whether it should be structured like platformism or whether it should based on free association; whether they support revolutionism or evolutionsm; and whether they support individual or collective acts in favor of anarchism. That's why, as things stand, they should all redirect to Libertarian socialism because (1) terms like anarchist socialism, anarcho-socialism, or socialist anarchism are used to refer to social anarchism only by those few who recognise anarcho-capitalism as part of anarchism; and (2) actual anarchists and sources that don't recognise anarcho-capitalism use them mainly when comparing libertarian and state socialism to refer to the anarchist-wing of (libertariann) socialism. The same is done with regards to left anarchism and right anarchism; they're mainly used by those recognising anarcho-capitalism to put social anarchism in left anarchism and individualist anarchism and anarcho-capitalism in right anarchism.--Davide King (talk) 00:46, 14 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Гармонический Мир: What do you mean when saying "this will not solve the problem of anarcho-capitalism"? And what do you think is "the problem of anarcho-capitalism"? I think anarcho-capitalism simply isn't part of anarchism; redirecting these terms only to social anarchism would instead give credit to those who think that anarcho-capitalism is part of anarchism and that only social anarchism is socialism within anarchism, which simply isn't true.--Davide King (talk) 01:21, 14 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
And we will not refute that anarcho-capitalism is part of anarchism by using not quite correct redirects.
Yours sincerely, Гармонический Мир (talk) 19:40, 15 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Гармонический Мир: As far I'm aware, these terms have been used to refer to the anarchist-wing of libertarian socialism, see Anarchist Socialism v. State Socialism at the London International Labour Congress (1896). Also, individualist anarchist Benjamin Tucker called his anarchism anarchist socialism, comparing it to state socialism. David McNally refers to Proudhon's mutualism (which sometimes is seen as part of social anarchism and other times part of individualist aarchism) as anarcho-socialism. I think there's a much longer tradition in using these terms this way.--Davide King (talk) 09:52, 17 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Гармонический Мир: I think the anarchist-wing of libertarian socialism is anarchism itself. I agree that social anarchism is the most prominent anarchist branch of the anarchist-wing, but not the only one.--Davide King (talk) 10:39, 17 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Гармонический Мир: Post-left anarchism is a recent development, many individualists still identified as socialists and egoist communism is a thing too. It's just misleading to link these terms to social anarchism when non-social anarchists also identified as socialists and specifically compared their anti-authoritarian, anti-statist, anarchist socialism to state socialism. Social anarchism emerged in the late 19th century as a distinction from individualist anarchism, later than terms like anarchist socialism being used to refer to the anarchist-wing of libertarian socialism, which at the time was synonym with anarchism as a whole, before the development in the 20th century of libertarian Marxism and other non-anarchist libertarian socialist trends, hence why I believe these terms are more broadly referring to the latter anarchist-wing than a specific anarchist branch or school of thought. Maybe we can state in the lead that "As a term, social anarchism overlaps with anarcho-socialism or anarchist socialism, libertarian socialism[9] and left-libertarianism,[10] emerging in the late 19th century as a distinction from individualist anarchism.[11]" to show that social anarchism is called like that but redirect them to libertarian socialism because they're used also in more broader terms and not just referring to social anarchism. What do you think?--Davide King (talk) 16:44, 18 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Гармонический Мир: I don't disagree with any of that, although the noted anarchist historian Max Nettlau stated that "on reading Stirner, I maintain that he cannot be interpreted except in a socialist sense" and I see Stirner more as an individualist communist/syndicalist in practice. Anyway, I would say I'm a social anarchist and I still think it's misleading to redirect it there. I could understand if it redirected to anarchism, because as you say not all anarchists may see themselves as socialists, but it would redirect to libertarian socialism, i.e. all anarchists that identify as socialists (along with other non-anarchists, etc.), so I still don't see the issue. Anarchist socialism and all other similar terms simply haven't been used to refer only to social anarchism.--Davide King (talk) 11:05, 19 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
As stated here, [...] the very idea of the individualist–socialist divide is contested, as some types of individualist anarchism are largely socialistic. (Franks 2013, p. 386), that anarchism is really a synonym for socialism. The anarchist is primarily a socialist whose aim is to abolish the exploitation of man by man. Anarchism is only one of the streams of socialist thought, that stream whose main components are concern for liberty and haste to abolish the State (Guérin 1970, p. 12); it's mainly anarcho-capitalists that refers to social anarchism as socialist anarchism et all and conflates all individualist anarchism for capitalism.
Most anarchists don't even use social anarchism (although as stated above [it] first emerged in the late 19th century as a way to distinguish the anarchist mainstream from various individualist or egoist strains, nowdays it's mainly a creation of Bookchin and its circle, who also used terms like socialist anarchism but it died out with him), they simply call themselves anarchists because the dominant form of anarchism is social anarchism; and talking about this, I think both Social anarchism and Libertarian socialism should remain, but this page should be expanded to include some History or Philosophy section about class-struggle anarchism and socialism.
So I'm still convinced that all these redirects to Social anarchism, rather than Libertarian socialism, are either non-neutral or POV-pushing. For all these reasons, it's simply wrong to characterise only social anarchist as (libertarian) socialism within anarchism. Pfhorrest, I don't know if you feel knowledgable enough about this to state your opinion, but maybe it can help us having more voices.--Davide King (talk) 16:41, 6 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Гармонический Мир, sorry but that makes no sense. While I may personally disagree, the individualist–social divide is done exactly to categorise different strands of anarchism so as to separate them. You seem to be confusing social anarchism for all anarchism that is socialist, but that's not correct. One can also be an individualist socialist and not be a social anarchist; indeed, one could be both a libertarian socialist and an individualist anarchist, or a libertarian socialist and a social anarchist, but not both a social anarchist and an individualist anarchist (although I may personaly consider myself both). Social anarchists are mainly revolutionary while individualist anarchists are evolutionists; social anarchists generally support mass working-class organisation whereas individualist anarchists are more sceptic about it; and so on and so on. Anarchist socialism is broader and isn't only social anarchism; much like libertarian socialism isn't only anarchism.--Davide King (talk) 23:20, 6 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think we need an article on socialist anarchism Isn't that just the existing article at anarchism?
A section that actually clarifies "anarchist socialism" (as we're doing here, but as an article) is more valuable than a simple redirect. I imagine definition of anarchism will fit this purpose when it is finished. (@Davide King, have any sources to back up what you said about Bookchin above?) czar 07:29, 7 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • As for Bookchin, I was referring to what you wrote above: On second thought, I hear your point about Bookchin. I don't see the term "social anarchism" actually having much currency outside his use of the term and the journal [...]. I wouldn't be opposed to a page that discusses that (maybe Anarchism and socialism) or simply a section, but I still believe that it's wrong to use these redirects only for Social anarchism when there're clearly individualists that are also socialists. Czar, do you think you could create here a History and/or Philosophy/Theory section that discusses this specific class-struggle anarchism; its empashis on mutual aid and community; and its differences from individualist anarchism?--Davide King (talk) 13:20, 7 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • I don't think I have much to contribute that you haven't already said better than I could, Davide, but everything you've said here so far checks out so far as my knowledge goes. I agree that "anarchist socialism" should redirect to an article that is about the form of socialism that is anarchist or libertarian rather than statist, i.e. to Libertarian socialism, rather than to an article about the form of anarchism that emphasizes society over individuality, i.e. to Social anarchism. --Pfhorrest (talk) 06:06, 7 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thanks for your comment, Pfhorrest. For all these reasons, including yours, I think Libertarian socialism (as the anarchist wing of libertarian socialism as opposed to the Marxist or non-anarchist wing) would be the more appropriate redirect. Individualist anarchists like Benjamin Tucker literally used anarchist socialism or anarchistic socialism to refer to their philosophy and contrasted it with state socialism.--Davide King (talk) 13:20, 7 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Anarchism and socialism[edit]

 – Гармонический Мир (talk) 07:59, 17 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Czar: @Pfhorrest: @Гармонический Мир: I made this proposal, but I don't think what you did here was a good edit; it's basically the same article that was merged into Social anarchism back in 2009. I still believe all these terms should redirect to Libertarian socialism for the reasons outlined above and that an article that discusses anarchism and its relationship with socialism should be styled like Definition of anarchism and libertarianism and titled Anarchism and socialism (cf. Anarchism and capitalism, Anarchism and nationalism, et all) rather than the current state of Anarchist socialism.--Davide King (talk) 03:24, 17 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  • My suggestion in writing Definition of anarchism was that all of the various synonyms for types of anarchism could redirect there for disambiguation (rather than disambiguating on multiple, separate pages). Truth is that we don't know exactly what someone searching for "anarchist socialism" tends to read, but we want to give them more than a simple list of terms (disambiguation page). I haven't finished with Definition of anarchism and libertarianism#Relation with socialism yet but my suspicion is that the recent expansion being discussed above could merge there as a kind of expanded disambiguation for "anarchist socialism" and "socialist anarchism", especially since the content/sourcing mainly pertains to questions of definition. How does that sound? czar 03:36, 17 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Гармонический Мир, I created a table in the Overview section of Social anarchism to include most of these terms that have been used to refer to social anarchism and I thought that would have been enough while redirect them to Libertarian socialism because the same terms have also been used to refer to the anarchist wing of libertarian socialism and not just social anarchism; and having this "Socialist anarchism" redirects here. For the branch of anarchism emphasizing mutual aid and sometimes referred to in similar terms, see Social anarchism. as a good compromise for using them as redirect to Libertarian socialism, but making clear they have also been more recently used to refer to social anarchism in particular. Czar, that would be definetly better than redirect them to Social anarchism. I think Socialist anarchism should remain a redirect and be merged there as you proposed; or maybe create Anarchism and socialism if we can find enough sources and literature to support its own article; and perhaps also rewrite from scratch Anarchism and Marxism with better reliable, secondary sources.--Davide King (talk) 03:52, 17 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Гармонический Мир, I don't think that's true, see The Anarchist Tradition of Political Thought and Anarchism: From Theory to Practice. I agree with this comment. That's why I wrote In the United States, social anarchism can also refer to Murray Bookchin's circle and its omonymous journal, not in general. Social anarchism is the common name and terms like socialist anarchism et all have been used to refer to both social anarchism and libertarian socialism in general, but I think they should redirect to Libertarian socialism because some individualist anarchists also used the terms and several strands of individualist anarchism are considered socialist. An article that specifically discuss socialist anarchism (i.e. anarchism that is socialist and anarchism relationship with socialism) can be created, but it should be named Anarchism and socialism because the same terms (socialist anarchism, etc.) have been used by both social and individualist anarchists, hence why the terms themselves should redirect to the more broad Libertarian socialism that includes both forms of anarchism.--Davide King (talk) 04:22, 17 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Гармонический Мир, but that's because now libertarianism is also used to refer to clearly non-anarchist ideology, so I don't understand your example. It's simply wrong to have them redirect to Social anarchism when individualist anarchism is also socialist and used the same terms.--Davide King (talk) 05:01, 17 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Гармонический Мир, but all the terms include anarcho-, anarchist, anarchism, etc., so it's clear they're referring to the anarchist wing of libertarian socialism. It's still POV/wrong to redirect them to Social anarchism for the reasons just stated. How about redirecting them to the section of Libertarian socialism that discusses anarchism?--Davide King (talk) 05:11, 17 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Гармонический Мир, that's assuming Socialist anarchism should be an article rather than a redirect. There's no consensus yet for that; and as things stands now, it's a fork of Social anarchism, hence why it was turned into a redirect in the first place. Also, refrain from making such edits as you did at Libertarian socialism and related articles, for this discussion isn't over yet and we need to reach a consensus first. I also think it's pointless to discuss this further between you and I, so I ping Czar and Pfhorrest to hear their thoughts on the matter. I'm mainly referring on whether Anarcho-socialism, Anarchist socialism, Socialist anarchism et all should redirect to Libertarian socialism (my proposal) or Social anarchism (Гармонический Мир's proposal).--Davide King (talk) 05:46, 17 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Гармонический Мир, I didn't mean to distort or anything like that, but when there're disputes like this it's custom to revert back to a previous version and wait until there's consensus. I write this because you seem to be assumming Socialist anarchism and the edits you did here are here to stay, but I think that would require some consensus first, that's why I referred to your proposal pre-edits. As it is now, Socialist anarchism is a fork of what we have a Social anarchism. If your edits at Socialist anarchism stay and there's consensus for that, your proposal would be to redirect them to Socialist anarchism (I actually agree with that, if it wasn't for the fact I don't think it should be an article, but rather we should have an article that discusses anarchism relationship with socialism like at Definition of anarchism or a hypotethical Anarchism and socialism full article)? In that case, would you also want to merge Social anarchism and make it a redirect of Socialist anarchism, or would you want to keep them as separate articles? I think social anarchism is the common name, so I would personally oppose that.--Davide King (talk) 06:07, 17 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • The article "Social anarchism" can be remained, but reduced. Although I think that social anarchism does not have independent significance if we understand it as antithesis of the individualist anarchism. Yours sincerely, Гармонический Мир (talk) 09:59, 17 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think that socialist anarchism (including socialist variants of individualist anarchism) is the dominant form of anarchism, while social anarchism is primarily associated with the theory of Murray Bookchin. Yours sincerely, Гармонический Мир (talk) 07:10, 17 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Recent edits[edit]

@Czar: @Pfhorrest: These recent edits require some consensus. I think social anarchism is the common name and Socialist anarchism should be a redirect whereas anarchism and socialism relationship it to be discussed at Anarchism and socialism, whether just as a section or as a full article. Where should Anarcho-socialism, Anarchist socialism, Socialist anarchism be redirected to then? Libertarian socialism or Social anarchism? For Гармонический Мир's view, see here. I think they should be redirects to Libertarian socialism, representing the anarchist wing, for the very idea of the individualist–socialist divide is contested, as some types of individualist anarchism are largely socialistic.[12] As far as I know, terms like these are used by anarchists and sources to refer to libertarian socialism whereas it's mainly anarcho-capitalists who use them pejoratively to refer to social anarchism. Other users also seemed to think the same, hence why Socialist anarchism was turned into a redrect until these recent edits.--Davide King (talk) 06:46, 17 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  • Please, only Czar, Pfhorrest and other users to comment here from now on, so as not to create an overtly long discussion like here. Гармонический Мир, you can reply me at Anarchist socialism from where we left.--Davide King (talk) 06:47, 17 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • (A small comment.) Social anarchism and socialist anarchism are different concepts and each of them, in my opinion, deserves its own article. Social anarchism is primarily associated with the theory of Murray Bookchin (more precisely, with his criticism of "lifestyle" anarchism), while socialist anarchism is an older concept that dates back to 19th century's anarchism. Yours sincerely, Гармонический Мир (talk) 11:04, 17 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think that's factually wrong as I have shown you two works (The Anarchist Tradition of Political Thought and Anarchism: From Theory to Practice) using social anarchism before Bookchin. Social anarchsm emerged in the late 19th century as a distinction from individualist anarchism after anarcho-communism replaced collectivist anarchism as the dominant tendency. Anarchists (both social and individualist anarchists) used terms like anarchist socalism, socialist anarchism, etc. mainly in relation to libertarian socialism, they didn't mean their social or individualist anarchism was the only true socialism. I think the reverse is true and that socialist anarchism to refer only to social anarchism vis-à-vis individualist anarchism is a recent invention. The current Socialist anarchism article isn't really good and is basically the same before being turned into a redirect because it was literally the same thing of social anarchism. For instance, it says that it's an umbrella term used to differentiate two broad categories of anarchism, this one being the collectivist, with the other being individualist anarchism.[3][4] But wasn't Socialist anarchism supposed to be about all anarchism that is socialist, including individualist anarchism? Yet there's no mention of that and it's a fork for Social anarchism.--Davide King (talk) 16:40, 17 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Cinadon36: @Oeqtte:--Davide King (talk) 16:54, 17 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • For example, individualist anarchist Benjamin Tucker also characterized his views as socialist anarchism (this is indicated in the source), but social anarchism does not include individualist anarchism. Thus, social anarchism is the opposite of individualist anarchism, while socialist anarchism is not necessarily the opposite of individualist anarchism. Yours sincerely, Гармонический Мир (talk) 02:36, 18 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Гармонический Мир, but they're all simply referring to the anarchist wing of libertarian socialism; socialist anarchism et all is nothing but the anarchist wing of libertarian socialism. If you believe the anarchist wing of libertarian socialism should have an article titled Socialist anarchism, that's fine, but we need more sources to support the article; and as things stand now, Socialist anarchism is a fork of Social anarchism.--Davide King (talk) 02:53, 18 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oeqtte, Anarchist socialism, being the anarchist wing of socialism, should redirect to Libertarian socialism is exactly what I've been arguing this whole time. I also don't think there [are] actually any sources that discuss Socialist anarchism as a distinct concept from either Libertarian socialism or Social anarchism. What I propose is an article titled Anarchism and socialism that discusses anarchism and socialism relationship. The Relation with socialism at Definition of anarchism and libertarianism could be a beginning. Besides, I already created a table at Social anarchism's Overview section and previously added "Socialist anarchism" redirects here. For the branch of anarchism emphasizing mutual aid and sometimes referred to in similar terms, see Social anarchism at Libertarian socialism, where I still believe they should be redirected to because they have also been by individualist anarchists and individualist anarchism is largely socialist and outright anti-capitalist like all anarchism anyway; and so it's misleading to redirect them to Social anarchism (indeed, it's mainly anarcho-capitalist theorists who refers only to social anarchism as socialist anarchism et all; and I don't think there're sources that actually discuss this article as any distinct from the anarchist wing of libertarian socialism. Finally, as it is now, Socialist anarchism is a fork of Social anarchism, with social anarchism being a concept actually discussed and the more used term. All this notwistanding your recent edits, Гармонический Мир, especially writing with the other being capitalist anarchism, for anarcho-capitalism being usually seen as right-libertarian and [t]he anti-capitalist tradition of classical anarchism [...] [remain[ig] prominent within contemporary currents. [Williams, Dana M. (2017). "Contemporary anarchist and anarchistic movements". Sociology Compass. Wiley. 12 (6).]--Davide King (talk) 02:36, 18 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Davide King, as we found out, socialist anarchism is a broader concept than social anarchism (the first also includes some variants of individualist anarchism). Therefore, I think that socialist anarchism deserves its own article article not less, but even more so, than social anarchism. Yours sincerely, Гармонический Мир (talk) 03:07, 18 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Гармонический Мир, but as explained by both Oeqtte and I, what you seem to be refering to as socialist anarchism is nothing but the anarchist wing of libertarian socialism. You need to provide more sources for an article warrating all anarchism that is socialism, when most anarchist is already anti-capitalist, if not outright socialism, anyway and so it would be a fork. Do you agree to redirect the terms to Libertarian socialism (rather than Social anarchism) for the time being and redirect them to Socialist anarchism when and if there's consensus for its own, separate article?--Davide King (talk) 03:13, 18 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Davide King, I have not heard that Bakunin, Proudhon, Kropotkin or Tucker use the term "libertarian socialism" to describe their views. Do you have a source in this regard? Yours sincerely, Гармонический Мир (talk) 03:24, 18 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Гармонический Мир, secondary sources would be preferred over primary ones; and that's not what I actually wrote. I didn't write or mean to say they used libertarian socialism but rather than they used terms such as socialist anarchism to refer to what we have at Libertarian socialism, i.e. the anarchist wing of libertarian socialism, which at that time was still synonymous with anarchism and anarchism only.--Davide King (talk) 03:30, 18 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Davide King, I don't understand what is "anarchist wing of libertarian socialism" in relation to the 19th century's anarchism. Do you have a reliable sources in this regard? Yours sincerely, Гармонический Мир (talk) 03:51, 18 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Гармонический Мир, the anarchist wing of libertarian socialism is what you think of as socialist anarchism and includes social anarchism and individualist anarchism as shown in the article. One of the reasons you rejected my move to Libertarian socialism was that it was misleading because libertarian socialism no longer includes just anarchism; and my response was that anarcho-socialism, anarchist socialism, socialist anarchism et all referred to the anarchist wing of libertarian socialism rather than just social anarchism.--Davide King (talk) 03:58, 18 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Davide King, I still don’t understand why we cannot have the article "Socialist anarchism", if we have the article on the narrower and less significant subject, "Social anarchism" (see latter's original form). How do you and other participants in the discussion feel about transferring part of the information from the article "Libertarian socialism" to the article "Socialist anarchism"? (As we found out, many of those who are attributed to libertarian socialism did not call themselves libertarian socialists.) Yours sincerely, Гармонический Мир (talk) 04:32, 18 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Гармонический Мир, because we need [reliable] sources that discuss Socialist anarchism as a distinct concept from either Libertarian socialism or Social anarchism (as stated by Oeqtte). You fail to realise that libertarian socialism isn't just a term but a concept too. See also this: Several years earlier in 1888, the individualist anarchist Benjamin Tucker included the full text of a "Socialistic Letter" by Ernest Lesigne in his essay on "State Socialism and Anarchism". According to Lesigne, there are two socialisms: "One is dictatorial, the other libertarian". Likewise, social anarchism isn't just a term like it was in the original version you linked, but rather the branch of anarchism emphasizing individual freedom with mutual aid, usually contrasted to individualist anarchism.--Davide King (talk) 04:51, 18 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think that Anarchist FAQ can be considered as reliable source. According to it Benjamin Tucker's individualist anarchist views is a part of socialist anarchism (he himself attributed them to socialist anarchism). As for "social anarchism", there is no clear definition of it (although we can refer to Bookchin's vision, as is done in the original version of the article "Social anarchism"). Yours sincerely, Гармонический Мир (talk) 05:23, 18 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Гармонический Мир, sorry but we need much more than just a source, especially a social anarchist one as the authors of the FAQ describe themselves as social anarchists and actually reject terms like socialist anarchism because they consider all anarchism (not including anarcho-capitalism) as anti-capitalist, if not outright libertarian socialist. A clear definition of social anarchism is what we have at Social anarchism, namely the branch of anarchism that sees individual freedom as interrelated with mutual aid.[6] Social anarchist thought emphasizes community and social equality as complementary to autonomy and personal freedom. It attempts to accomplish this balance through freedom of speech maintained in a decentralized federalism, with freedom of interaction in thought and subsidiarity. Subsidiarity is best defined as "that one should not withdraw from individuals and commit to the community what they can accomplish by their own enterprise and industry" and that "[f]or every social activity ought of its very nature to furnish help to the members of the body social, and never destroy and absorb them", or the slogan "Do not take tools out of people's hands".[6][7] They use socialist anarchism to refer to libertarian socialism; they reject the concept itself of socialist anarchism because they see anarchism itself as being anti-capitalist and libertarian socialist.--Davide King (talk) 06:24, 18 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Davide King, now I understand why you are against this article. I am closer to socialist anarchism (or libertarian socialism) too. But it's impossible to prove to the anarcho-capitalists that they are not anarchists. They have their own counterargument for any your argument. Yours sincerely, Гармонический Мир (talk) 10:05, 18 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • As for social anarchism's definition, it's rather vague here. Bookchin had it more understandable. Yours sincerely, Гармонический Мир (talk) 10:09, 18 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • I wouldn't say it's impossible to prove to the anarcho-capitalists that they are not anarchists, for Rothbard's contemporary individualist anarchists rejected him and its anarcho-capitalism; and there're many reliable sources that don't include it as the overall consensus among anarchists deems that anarcho-capitalism cannot be considered a part of the anarchist movement due to the fact that anarchism has historically been an anti-capitalist movement which opposes private property over the means of production and for definitional reasons which see anarchism as incompatible with capitalist forms. Besides, if by anarcho-capitalism they merely mean some voluntaryism, then there's already that in anarchism (Anarchism without adjectives and Synthesis anarchism). However, they usually mean private ownership of land and capital and support capitalist property rights and social relations which no anarchism supported.--Davide King (talk) 16:42, 18 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Гармонический Мир, that isn't how it works. There're also opinions that Nazis and fascists were socialist and left-wing, but that doesn't mean the consensus isn't for both being actual far-right and not socialist. While some people may disagree, anarcho-capitalism isn't generally considered part of anarchism bur rather right-libertarian, even if several indviduals may be considered actual anarchists. Anyway, could you make an expanded sandbox of Socialist anarchism and draft it for review? If you want it to be an article, I think that would be the way to go because Czar, Oeqtte and I disagree that it's worth an article.--Davide King (talk) 18:24, 18 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Davide King: Remember, it is possible to have one disambiguation page Socialist anarchism and have the various other terms redirect to it. However, if you were to create an article at Anarchism and socialism then a redirect and hatnotes may suffice. It is just that "socialist anarchism" is generally the kind of term that needs disambiguation since it refers to different things in different sources. Oeqtte[t] 07:40, 18 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • My issue with these redirection discussions is as follows. Let's assume that each of these terms (libertarian socialism, social anarchism, socialist anarchism, anarchist socialism) refers to slightly different concepts. The best way to cover them is not to fork each to its own article but to take the article that already covers the vast majority of its content and to address the "questions of definition" in that space. This indeed is the point of the Definition of anarchism article: It should outline the existing history and arguments on definitional demarcations and then can serve as a kind of enhanced disambiguation page to receive redirects. This doesn't preclude splitting Definition of anarchism and libertarianism#Relation with socialism into a full article on Anarchism and socialism if and when warranted by summary style expansion, but for now, would it not suffice to just cover the differences between these terms there? Does each really need its own page with heavily duplicated content? We only have that precedent because of how someone edited it years ago, but no other encyclopedia (either specialist or generalist) dedicates separate articles to these very similar concepts. This is a matter of what we stand to gain by writing separate articles articles versus using a merged page to clarify the differences between terms, leaving the main anarchism article to give the overview that is currently common to all of the aforementioned term subpages. Eh? czar 16:55, 18 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • If anything, I would do it the other way around (redirect "socialist anarchism" to "anarchism and socialism") since "socialist anarchism" is not a common construction in the sources I've read. But I think it's premature to spin out another article if there is an existing section that can sufficiently address the constellation of related terms. czar 18:20, 18 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
There are perhaps a dozen ways to refer to the branch of anarchism that overlaps with socialist thought. WP typically handles this through redirects, not separate articles for each slight variant. When choosing what to title that one article, we use the name that best matches the WP:Naming criteria, i.e., what matters most is the name that reliable, secondary sources use most often when describing the topic. Tucker's choice of phrasing doesn't hold much weight in this case. czar 03:13, 20 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'd be curious what sources/content you would be using to expand Libertarian socialism and Social anarchism that would be any different from the content that belongs in anarchism, considering how they're used as virtual synonyms. (If the majority of the history content, apart from a few caveats, would remain the same, why wouldn't it suffice to cover those as a section within the main article?) czar 18:20, 18 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
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