Talk:List of gay, lesbian or bisexual people/Archive 3

Marlon Brando

I noticed Marlon Brando's removal from the article, and I was a little puzzled. I knew it had never ever been confirmed, but I thought his bisexuality was widely accepted enough, more than simply tabloid rumours - accounts from personal friends amongst the sources - that it deserves at least inclusion in the debated section? -Erolos 18:16, 2 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Well, I see that Brando is back in the main article, where someone wrote: Marlon Brando, American Actor, bisexual (In his 1976 biography "The Only Contender" by Gary Carey, Brando was quoted as saying, "Like a large number of men, I, too, have had homosexual experiences, and I am not ashamed.") Personally, I have no feelings about Brando one way or another and don't even care whether he's listed or not. What I would like to see, however, is some rigor being applied to this list. It now seems to be the agreed upon standard that in order to be listed, that person has to have something about his/her homosexuality or bisexuality or even speculation about it mentioned in the main article about that particular person. I have just checked the Marlon Brando article and, as of this date, there is nothing there about his sexuality or speculations thereof in any way whatsoever. That being the case:

1. Shouldn't Brando either be removed from this list, or
2. Shouldn't something about his sexuality be added to the main article?

Hayford Peirce 18:23, 11 August 2005 (UTC)

Yes to both. -Willmcw 22:03, August 11, 2005 (UTC)

Field Marshall Bernard Montgomery

I question this entry, as I have done extensive research on the Field General and have NEVER heard is sexuality questioned. Does anybody have any evidence or has General Patton arisen from the dead to have one more whack at "Monty"!

The source is Nigel Hamilton's biography from a couple of years ago, The Full Monty. Hamilton quotes letters and personal accounts to argue that Monty was a repressed homosexual, and implies that some of his plutonic relationships with boys bordered on pederasty. Such claims are obviously contentious, but Hamilton is quite a respected authority on Monty. Here's an article from the Guardian with some details: [1] And this is the book: [2]

I am assuming you meant to say "Platonic" instead of "Plutonic".

Yes, platonic.

How can anybody have a homosexual platonic (without the sins of the flesh) relationship?

By being sexually attracted to someone of the same gender but not having sex with them. You should really have been able to figure that out for yourself.

It is preposterous! If the best evidence is that he had NON-SEXUAL, normal relationships with men and boys but MAY have had impure thoughts(never acted on), then this entire section has lost its'credibility and should be abandoned or conversly,include every sexually inquisitive hetrosexual male.

Arrant nonsense. Homosexuality is defined by attraction. Whether you act on that attraction is neither here no there. Plenty of people who are openly gay have either never or rarely actually acted on that attraction and the confirmed list includes several celibate homosexuals (Jeffrey John, Stephen Fry, etc.). If the letters and personal testimonies are true, these relationships clearly went beyond the merely homosocial for Monty, and involved sexual attraction that he chose not to act upon. Why don't you read the book then see what you think?

Bernard Montgomery #2

An anon deleted Bernard Montgomery. I checked the bio and found no mention of his orientation. I did a quick web search and found this "Guardian" article which discussed his latent or supressed urges, but which makes clear that there is no evidence that he ever acted on those (supposed) urges. [3]. -Willmcw 06:34, August 12, 2005 (UTC)

Jorja Fox

Is she a lesbian? I have seen websites where she denies it, although I understand her character on CSI is a lesbian (correct me if I'm wrong).

She played a lesbian on ER. I believe her character on CSI is straight.

Well if her character in CSI is a lesbian, then Grissom must be really pleased with himself. Ben W Bell 14:14, 17 Mar 2005 (UTC)

John Paulk

While I hate to do it, I have added John Paulk to the list of gay and bi-sexual people, and established an article about him on Wikipedia. Having known John when he was at his prime "gayness", and seeing that he rose and failed Exodus International, I think its important for his name to be on the list. Personally, I fear the day that he reclaims his gay persona. Also, can some kind folks take a look at the article and ensure that its NPOV? user: stude62 user talk:stude62 01:08, 31 Jan 2005 (UTC)

If she's a lesbian on CSI, then why pray tell, is she always trying to get Grissom to take her out on a date?

Addition of Lincoln

Some anon just added Abraham Lincoln to the list. Let's say I have my suspicions - Skysmith 10:32, 31 Jan 2005 (UTC)

It wasn't me, but of course Lincoln belongs on the list somewhere. Many biographers at least hinted at it, and there's a new book out on the topic.

If necessary, we can create some "super-disputed" or "extra-controversial" category, but not to mention Lincoln in this article would just be silly. To say that Lincoln is not a "person of debated gay orientation" is POV-pushing. The issue certainly is "debated."

Personally, I have to add that on the evidence presented, if it were anyone of less-iconic stature than Lincoln, I think most people would grant least a reasonable likelihood of a relationship between Lincoln and Speed. It's very unlikely that there will be proof one way or the other, and very unlikely given the culture wars that there will ever be general agreement, and our entry should reflect that, but to keep Lincoln out of the article altogether would be POV-pushing. Dpbsmith (talk) 11:30, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Lincoln has been listed in the debated section for months.

Sorry, that is not correct. He is listed, as he should be.Jliberty 03:38, Feb 11, 2005 (UTC)

He was listed in the debated section months ago, the issue was discussed at length and resolved on the Talk page of the page about him. If someone only just added him when Skysmith raised objections above, then someone else must have deleted him from the list first.

Removal of Randy Shilts

Randy Shilts was a well known homosexual and AIDS activist.

I think the removal of his name is a mistake.

I am restoring it. User:ted-m

Anthony Perkins bisexuality

I restored the Bisexual status of Anthony Perkins as his page states that he was bisexual.

user:ted-m

Jeffrey Dahmer

I suggest that Jeffrey Dahmer be moved back to the No longer identifying as gay, lesbian, or bisexual section due to his conversion to Christianity in prison before his death.

I suggest that your implication that there are no Christian self-identified gays, lesbians, or bisexuals is ridiculous. - Outerlimits 09:18, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Barbara Graham

I added her due to her relationship with inmate Donna Prow. While it is common for heterosexuals to have homosexual relationships in prison while still remaining hetero, I think the fact that she refered to Prow as "the only person she ever truly loved" to merit inclusion on this page. Inanechild

Michael Portillo

I have removed Michael Portillo from the "proven gay" list as he does not identify himself as gay; he considers himself straight and has a wife. Although he admitted to having gay relationships in college, these seem to have fallen under his "experimental phase" and he does not seem to align with the encounters he had in the early 1970s. If anything, he's done a 180. Mike H 03:44, Mar 3, 2005 (UTC)

Michael does not call himself as "straight" despite repeated media questioning. The idea of having an 'experimental phase' in college - pleeeese, what planet are you on? A once off drunken experiment, maybe. Twice is a bit questionable. But you don't have longterm relationships with men as an 'experiment', much less introduce your girlfriend (now wife) to someone you call your "ex-boyfriend", much less tell them (oh the tactlessness of it) that one had been seeing both of them at the same time for a period, much less tell them that when they are sitting beside each other in one's speeding car rushing through the countryside.

As to Michael's sexual behaviour since his marriage, few of his friends (not even his wife) believe he hasn't "experimented" since. I'm putting him back in. FearÉIREANN 22:06, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)

or theres discussion of information about portillo's sexualitySandpiper 4 July 2005 16:47 (UTC)

BTW as a matter of interest the reason why Michael, though at that stage a hated Tory, was not outed when his sexual orientation was common knowledge in Fleet Street and Westminster was because a senior Labour figure was also gay and in the closet. A senior Labour figure at the time told me that Labour and the Tories operated a "gentleman's agreement" whereby 'you don't out our guy, we won't out yours'. Michael, to give him his credit, opted when restarting his career to confirm his sexuality. The other guy hasn't - as he is still in the closet, he is not here even though as I know his ex-longterm boyfriend I am 100% sure of his orientation. There are actually a very large number of gay MPs and peers, including household names. But few have been as honest as Michael in coming out, even if it was carefully worded so as not to offend the blue rinse brigade of old dears in the Tories. So he deliberately refuses to categorise himself - he daren't say 'straight' becuase leading tabloids know all about his more recent shagging, while saying 'gay' or 'bisexual' would cause half the Tories (most of whom are elderly) to die of fright. But even talking about long past gay experiences was enough to kill off his leadership hopes, ironically given that he is probably the only senior Tory capable of leading the party to win an election. (To win they need to beat Labour by 10%+, thanks to Britain's ludicrously undemocratic first past the post electoral system. At the stage they are right now, there should be a Tory government around 2013. If Portillo was leader they'd have one in June this year. FearÉIREANN 22:42, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Default Description

Shouldn't gay or lesbian be the default, and only specific notation be made for "bisexual"? In case where the sex of the individual is unclear to the unfamiliar (for example Marilyn Manson) an (M) or (F) could go after the name.

Please Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages. Thanks. Hyacinth 21:04, 17 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Sources?

This edit caught me eye:

• Al Reynolds, husband of Star Jones (of "The View")

No source for this. This type of material, especially about people who are not widely and commonly known as gay or bi, should have some kind of reference, please. Cheers, -Willmcw 23:06, Mar 28, 2005 (UTC)

Trevi

• Gloria Trevi, bisexual Mexican singer [4], recently found Not Guilty of helping her manager kidnap/rape teenage girls; manager convicted) [5]

Including someone on this list because a blogger has written that (Babelfish translation): They say that Gloria Trevi is bisexual (that among other dozens of things more),... is insufficient. User 155.84.57.253/LesbianLatke, please find a more direct, authoritative source. Thanks, -Willmcw 23:02, Mar 31, 2005 (UTC)

Is there a source to show that her designation as a lesbian is given enough credence even to be disputed? -Willmcw 22:11, Apr 4, 2005 (UTC)

Morrissey

The article on Morrissey has this line, which makes it sound as if his sexuality is a marketing ploy:

• Morrissey's ambiguous sexuality, provocative iconoclasm, and lyrical compositions blended with guitarist Johnny Marr's highly melodic songwriting to sell many recordings.

In any case, it is extremely vague. Is there an actual reference to support Morrisey's placement on this list? -Willmcw 21:15, Apr 4, 2005 (UTC)

Possibly asexual.

Hugh Hefner

Can anyone provide some info on his supposedly admitting to having gay relationships in the 1970s? If not, his name should be removed from the list.

-While I (unfortuantely) can't recall the name of the magazine, I DID in fact read an interview with Hugh Hefner a few years ago where he stated that in the mid 1970's at a party, he did have ONE homosexual encounter. However, I certainly don't believe that this should necessarily qualify to have him placed on this list.

In my opinion a single homosexual encounter among so many heterosexual encounters is statistically insignificant. -Willmcw 02:27, July 13, 2005 (UTC)

I do think it would be interesting to see high profile (known) one time encounters and that such. (I'd sign but I'm not sure how)

I think I read that interview many years ago in Details.

Catholic churchmen/Alleged child molesters

Should priests who have been accused of molesting young men or boys, but who have not admitted to these acts or been convicted of the acts be included in this list? The latest such addition is Juliusz Paetz, (former) Archbishop of Poznan. There are plenty of sources describing the allegations. Polish archbishop quits in sex row, Polish Priests Press Vatican on Case Against Bishop. Do we include all of the famous priest/molesters, even if they'd denied charges? -Willmcw 05:35, Apr 13, 2005 (UTC)

Child molestation is pedophelia - an entirely separate category. Gender of victims in child molestation is frequently a matter of availability. If an adult is attracted to same sex children he/she is a pedophile, not gay.

Gay = homosexual = attracted to people of the same sex -- age is without regard. And child molestion is not pedophilia. 24.224.153.40 01:07, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

Michael Jackson! Hello!

Can it honestly be said that Machael Jackson never crossed anybody's minds? It's my opinion that the child abuse aligations are enough to at least put him on the "debated" list. Would anybody disagree?

If he is found guilty then he could be included in the Category:Pedophiles. I'm not aware of any reports that he has either had sex with or indicated an interest having sex with adult males. See also the question above, about pedophile priests. Overall, based on what I've casually read, it appears that child molesters are generally categorized separately from those whose preference is for adults (of whatever gender). -Willmcw 09:50, Apr 20, 2005 (UTC)

Matthew Gregory Lewis

I moved Matthew Gregory Lewis to the "disputed" section, because apparently there is no evidence he ever had sex with anyone. [6] If anyone has a concrete reference then I have no objection to moving him back. -Willmcw 05:00, Apr 25, 2005 (UTC)

Notice of intent to list at VfD

Scanning over this Talk page I am amazed at how many people have been listed here and removed. The editors maintaining this are clearly irresponsible. This page may very well lead to a serious lawsuit against the project and I think it's better for it to just disappear, as it is churlish and useless anyway. JDG 05:51, 6 May 2005 (UTC)

Please don't waste your time. It's quite useful, actually - I for one find it interesting. In any case, there's no chance of getting a consensus to delete, and we've all got better things to do than argue about it. Ambi 05:55, 6 May 2005 (UTC)

Shane MacGowan?

Really? Sources? --Dante Alighieri | Talk 23:20, May 9, 2005 (UTC)

Please vote

Straw poll is at the top of this page.

--Samuel Wantman 00:04, 16 May 2005 (UTC)

Readability of List

Just a thought, but maybe editing the list so it's Surname, Firstname might help its readability a bit... At the moment it looks a tad jumbled... -Veratien 20:50, 16 May 2005 (UTC)

Yes, it is a bit jaring, but I believe it is the Wikipedia standard. All lists of names are done this way. Probably due, at least in part, to the effort it saves in linking the names. -Willmcw 21:03, May 16, 2005 (UTC)

People from ancient times

Looking at this list I've noticed a fair few people from ancient times, in particular Ancient Greece, and I would like to dispute their inclusion. Sexuality in ancient times does not have the same cultural context as it does today in western culture. For example, Ancient Greece (and later Rome) did not really have a concept of masculine and feminine but rather saw people as dominant and submissive. The fact that some Greek philosophers had sex with young boys was not seen as unusual because it was still a relationship between a dominant person (an adult male) and a submissive person (a young boy). Now please don't get me wrong, I'm not saying the paedophilia is okay, I'm just saying that the culture of ancient times was very different to today. Therefore, to include people from ancient times on this list may not accurately reflect their sexual preference or lend credence to the modern day issues of sexuality. Marleysghost 13:51, May 22, 2005 (UTC)

That is one fair interpretation. Anoter is that in Ancient Greece there were different customs and prohibitions on human sexuality, and so there was more room for expression of homosexual and bisexual feelings. There is no doubt that the relationship among many of these men and "boys" (usually adolescents who had not yet grown a beard) was one of love. For more on this I highly recommend Homosexuality and Civilization by Louis Crompton, ISBN: 067401197X as well as the Wikipedia Article Sacred Band of Thebes. Jliberty 14:52, May 22, 2005 (UTC)

Prince Edmond de Polignac

I don't see any evidence that Prince Edmond de Polignac is famous. -Willmcw 23:38, May 26, 2005 (UTC)

Where did you look? - Outerlimits 03:40, 27 May 2005 (UTC)

I first looked in his Wikipedia article. Nothing. Then I checked Google. The only biography I could find was on the John Whistler website, as part of a listing of everyone who attended a dinner party with Whistler. He's often mentioned as the husband of Singer, but that's it. Where have you seen him described as famous? Thanks, -Willmcw 03:54, May 27, 2005 (UTC)

Proust thought him sufficiently famous to merit mention in Remembrance of Things Past. Other places you might look/quotes for your perusal. Whistler: [7] Proust: [8] Proust: "... If in Tissot's picture representing the balcony of the Rue Royale club, where you figure with Galliffet, Edmond Polignac and Saint-Maurice, people are always drawing attention to yourself, it is because they know that there are some traces of you in the character of Swann." (TC, I, 2) [9] [10] ...her beloved (and gay) second husband, Prince Edmond de Polignac, a talented choral composer who independently discovered the octatonic scale in 1879 and whose modernistic works (admired by both Debussy and Proust) she promoted with dedication from 1901 onwards.

I would argue that simply being a prince is sufficiently famous; being a prince and marrying Winnie Singer is yet more sufficiently so; being a Prince who marries the Singer heiress and independently invents the octatonic scale would more than adequately famous again; being a composer of some minor merit might warrant additional consideration; and being the namesake of the Edmond de Polognac prize might well raise him above the dizzying level of fame achieved by, say... the Lady Bunny or Queen Pen. - Outerlimits 04:55, 27 May 2005 (UTC)

I hope you'll take all this research and create an article for him. Cheers, -Willmcw 05:15, May 27, 2005 (UTC)

Malcolm X?

should Malcolm X really be included in this list while the only reference of his possibly being gay is one article in The Guardian?

That's why he's in the "Debated" section rather than the "Confirmed" section. Prairie Dog

I took a quick look when it was added. IIRC, there is a book as well. -Willmcw 03:04, Jun 19, 2005 (UTC)

possible split of list

what would you thing of splittling the list by orientation all homosesuals on one list and all bisexuals on the other.

see list of bisexuals. -Willmcw 03:18, Jun 16, 2005 (UTC)

Oh goody, another flame war. Jliberty 12:21, Jun 16, 2005 (UTC)

Langston Hughes

Langston Hughes is on both the confirmed and the possible gay, lesbian or bisexual lists. I removed him from the confirmed, but if anybody has evidence of his supposed homosexuality than he should be added to the confirmed list and deleted from the possible list.

---Langston Hughes is indeed agreed upon by virtually every biographer to be gay. I have re-added him to the Confirmed section. There is little dispute in the literary world or amongst historical biographers concerning Hughes' sexual persuasion. His Wiki bio even attests to this. --- ExRat 01:11, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

Actually, in a surprising admission on the part of Hughes biographer Arnold Rampersad (who conducted meticulous research and set aside a great deal of prejudice to admit this fact in LLH Volume 2), Langston Hughes showed a preference for other black men, especially dark skinned black men. Hughes found white men of little sexual appeal(Rampersad 336). Moreover, while in his early 60s, Hughes seemed to fall in love with Gilbert Price(Rampersad 373), a former black star of Broadway who was himself closeted until his accidental death due to carbon monoxide. Price had a strong handsome voice similiar to Paul Robesons. Hughes traveling companion in the Caribbean, Zell Ingram, was gay but Hughes disguised him as a heterosexual in his first autobiography (Berry,Faith 123). Zell was known to be gay even though he married and divorced later in his life. The F.S. Poem is conjectured to be Ferdinand Smith, a sailor from Jamaica who Hughes corresponded with up until Smith's death in Jamaica(Berry 347). They met in the 1920's. Smith encourage Hughes toward sea travel. The poem, Sailor Ashore, was written for Smith. Hughes wrote a number of unpublished poems to a black male lover (West 162). Hughes was seen in bath house in Harlem, the only one to admit black men in New York, Mt. Morris Baths. Raoul Abdul, a secretary to Hughes, was a gay man, but not (?) a lover. A close friend of Hughes, Glenn Carrington, was another black gay man who knew Hughes from his youth in the 20's. Carrington often took photos of handsome young black men.

In the book REMEMBER ME TO HARLEM, a selected collection of letters between Hughes and Carl Van Vechten by Emily Barnard, a reference is made to the "open secret" of Hughes being gay by one of the leading black publications of his day, Amsterdam News 1940(Bernard 176). Hughes along with Richmond Barthe ,himself gay, was nominated as eligiable bachelors. In addition, Van Vechten sends Hughes a photograph of two very handsome black sailors with a "wink, wink" inuendo (Barnard 227). The same books hints of other black gay men who were more than likely associated with Hughes. The book feautures ample evidence if only one is willing to read very carefully.

The movie LOOKING FOR LANGSTON pays homage to Hughes, the love of one black man for another black man, and denied black gay history, a love often denied in mainstream gay cinema and general cinema.

"In black culture in general, as long as you can pass and have all of the accoutrements of straight men, then you are "okay"--the problems arise when you are vocal and comfortable with your homosexuality..."--posted comment on black gay blog.

It must be remembered that the majority of black gay men were closeted in Hughes day. Hughes would not have been able to achieve what he did if he was open about his sexuality. Hughes taught black Americans to take pride in their heritage and love themselves absent of self-hate. He was not high minded like many black intellectuals of his day, but celebrated the working class black and through him the working class in general in all people. Long before "black is beautiful" of the 60's, Hughes was saying black is beautiful.

Rampersad, Arnold. The Life of Langston Hughes. Vol.2 1941-1967 I dream a world. New York: Oxford University Press, 1988

Berry, Faith. Langston Hughes: Before and Beyond Harlem. Citadel Press 1983, 1992

Bernard, Emily. Remember Me to Harlem: The Letters of Langston Hughes and Carl Van Vechten. Knopf 2001

West Sandra & Aberjhani. Encyclopedia of The Harlem Renaissance. Checkmark Books 2003

Paris Hilton

I've removed Paris Hilton, since it stated she was bisexual. Sure, she's made out with some girls on pictures found on her cameraphone, but I specifically remember her saying "Ewwww" when Nicole Ritchie said she thought it was hot when two guys kissed (on The Simple Life.)

Hilton's romantic or physical involvements with other women are of concern here, not her opinion of male homosexuals. I'm going to add her back under the disputed section, which reflects the material in our article, Paris Hilton. -Willmcw 21:51, Jun 23, 2005 (UTC)

-Where has Paris Hilton EVER acknowledged being bisexual? Shouldn't she be placed in the Disputed section rather than the Confirmed section?

Lili Damita

This actress was married three times and had at least one child. Her WP bio makes no mention of any lesbian encounters. I've removed her until we can get better sourcing. -Willmcw 00:17, July 11, 2005 (UTC)

-I have placed Lili Damita back on the Disputed list. Numerous accounts of her alleged bisexuality and affairs with Marlene Dietrich abound. These are easily found on searches through the internet as well as published in Kenneth Anger's 1975 book "Hollywood Babylon" and numerous other books.

I don't see anything about that in either the Damita bio or the Dietrich bio. Please add it Damita's bio, then we can add it here. Thanks, -Willmcw 04:19, July 16, 2005 (UTC)

Errol Flynn, who was married to Damita, also referred to her bisexuality in his autobiography.

Nick Cave

• *Nick Cave, Austrialian muscian, has be known to kiss men.

I couldn't find any such reference, which is barely enough to count anyway. Does anyone have a source? -Willmcw 19:56, July 14, 2005 (UTC)

Removed, -Willmcw 03:51, August 2, 2005 (UTC)

Roger Moss

I removed Roger Moss from the list as he was added on July 12 by User:129.74.75.254, an open proxy vandal who also added a spurious addition to the Roger Moss article itself which was quickly reverted. Kaibabsquirrel 15:25, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

I've no real idea of how this list works, but since I am a gay man and my name is Roger Moss -- albeit not the distinguished American architectural historian, but a British academic (Essex University) and a minor novelist (The Game of the Pink Pagoda, 1986; The Miraculous Birth, Secret Life and Lamentable Death of Mr. Chinn, 1989; Le Morne, 2000) -- I thought I'd let you know. My one disqualification from being included is, of course, that I'm not particularly famous.

Dana International

A transgender Israeli Singer (went from male to female) who won the 1998 Eurovision song competition

Dana International is famous. I don't know if we have other transsexuals on this list, but we can add her for the time being. Why don't you go ahead and add her name - just follow the examples of the other names. Cheers, -Willmcw 08:52, July 24, 2005 (UTC)

Jack Kerouac

Why hasn't Jack Kerouac been added? There is notable evidence that he was with men and there in a lot imagery in his work. He was married, but I believe sources claim he is bisexual.

I don't understand how this works; can I just add him to the list? Or do I need approval from someone?

I added Jack Kerouac to the kist. There is eveidence from a notable amount of sources that is he bisexual. One source is http://www.glbtq.com/literature/kerouac_j.html. -User:Amicable keith 19:48 July 31st, 2005 (UTC)

No one's approval is needed, but entries should comply with the agreed-upon criteria posted at the top of the article. Kerouac apparently qualifies, so it's a fair addition. Thanks, -Willmcw 03:06, August 2, 2005 (UTC)

I've checked the actual article and Kerouac still doesn't appear anywhere; there are today even more sources of him being bisexual, such as the Gore Vidal story (http://lastbohemians.blogspot.com/2011/08/jack-kerouac-and-gore-vidal-hook-up-in.html). I don't know quite how I can actually edit the original article, because I believe there's enough evidence to consider Kerouac as bisexual.

"debated"

the "debated" section has to go. It risks being a smear campaign. So Kant was bisexual? Funny, his article doesn't say so. Clay Aiken, "has been questioned but refuses to comment"? I'm sure he'll be delighted to be listed here. Akhenaton, Aristotle, Handel, Richard III the clubfooted hunchback? nice!. The people listed should at the very least have a subsection devoted to their sexuality in their articles, but I find the whole concept of listing people as "suspected homo!" repulsive. You should be content to list people here who have openly confirmed their orientation. dab (ᛏ) 07:15, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

The possibility of Kant being homosexual was discussed in Manfred Kuehn's "Kant: A Biography". [[11]] Kant was publically revealed as having made sexual advances to his servant. Unfortunately, because of the era Kant lived in, there really is not a huge amount of material. Prairie Dog 18:31 11 Aug. 2005

also, "has been known to kiss a man" is ridicuolus as evidence. show some devotion to encyclopedicity, people. *Notability*. List people who have spoken out publicly, and made their orientation matter. If you have to rely on streching paparazzi evidence, the entry has no place here. Ancient Greeks hardly count, either, since their concept of gender was very different. If anything, they could go to their own section, which would essentially be a "List of Ancient Greeks" -- pointless. dab (ᛏ) 07:20, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

FYI, A long discussion and poll recently concluded to establish firm criteria for inclusion in this list: "has a Wikipedia article and that article contains reasonable documentation for inclusion on this list." Obviously we have not leapt to enforce this new policy. We did not discuss the status of the "debated" section, but I would presume that it would follow that if the subject's biography discusses the orientation without a conclusion, but with a strong presumption of being gay/lesbian/bisexual, then that would be the appropriate section for them. Because of the length of the list, some of recommneded splitting off living celebrities (on't ask me why, now we need to merge them back in again) or dead people (which makes a more sense) or pre-20th century people (which is probably the easiest and best). I'd urge you to read the discussion at the top of the page (moved there for prominence) about the criteria. Many of these issues were discussed. Anyway, there's always room for improvement. Cheers, -Willmcw

Alfred Kinsey

I have added scientist/sexologist Alfred Kinsey to the Confirmed section. It is well documented that Kinsey was indeed bisexual and Kinsey himself wrote about his homosexual encounters. Also, Kinsey had a rather long romantic affair with a male co-worker, Ralph Voris. In 1939, while still compiling data for his book "Sexual Behavior in the Human Male" Kinsey began having homosexual affairs with many of his gay male subjects in Chicago. Many of these accounts were corroborated on the PBS documentary "Kinsey" on the program "American Experience" where Kinsey's sexuality was openly discussed by former colleagues and his own children. --- ExRat 21:01, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

American Experience - Kinsey

According to the criteria that editors have agreed upon for this list, their needs to be a mention of the subject's orientation in their Wikipedia article. That article mentions that it is disputed. Can you please add a note there, with your citation? Thanks. Also, can you please sign and date your talk page contributions? Just add four tildes at the end and it'll happen automaticcaly. Cheers, -Willmcw 02:52, August 8, 2005 (UTC)

Sorry, I'm a bit new at this. Hope I'm not muddling up the page. I'm not quite sure I understand why Jack Kerouac is added to the list when his Wiki bio makes no mention of his alleged bisexuality, as well as quite a few others listed in the debated section with the slimmest possible evidence. Yet, a few of my additions are somehow more scrutinized when they are historically proven to be bisexual. I shall make a note in Kinsey's Wiki bio, but if I am to be held to the standard of the Wiki criteria, then everyone should. Also, the Kinsey Wiki bio DOES state (not in dispute) that Kinsey was indeed bisexual:

"None of these accounts of Kinsey's own sex life are supported by official statements from the Kinsey Institute. Although some of them have been confirmed by independent multiple sources (such as his being bisexual)..."

Even the Kinsey Institute openly state Alfred Kinsey was bisexual. Their dispute was with Kinsey biographer James H. Jones claiming that Kinsey was solely homosexual and using his wife Clara as "cover" for his homosexuality. Not with his proven bisexuality.

I don't want to cause controversy though. Like I said, I'm a bit new at this and don't want to cross any lines or step on any toes. It is a very good list though. I just feel that some individuals on the list leave me scratching my head as to why they are included (Britney Spears???) and others are not or erased when they are indisputedly gay, lesbian, or bisexual. --- ExRat 21:01, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

Regarding your research on Kinsey - that should go in the Kinsey article. If Kinsey is widely and without dispute cnsidered to have been bisexual then that should be mentioned in his bio and he should be included here. Regarding Jack Kerouac, while the body of the article doens't mention it, he is categorized as a "bisexual writer". There should be a further mention to support it. Regarding other entries, we are slowly reviewing old entries to see if they comply with the new criteria. Feel free to move any here that you think are not properly added. Thanks, -Willmcw 21:54, August 8, 2005 (UTC)

Kevin Spacey

• Kevin Spacey, American actor, controversy surrounding a supposed outing by an article in Esquire

There's no mention in the biography about this. Please add it there and then we can add it here. -Willmcw 19:40, August 8, 2005 (UTC)

Sigmund Freud?

His article does not say he was bisexual. His theory of Innate bisexuality does not make him a bisexual. Paul August ☎ 16:44, August 11, 2005 (UTC)

It's an interesting question. If he believed that everyone was bisexual to a greater or lesser extent, wouldn't it also apply to himself? Or do you suggest that he excluded himself from his own theory? Just curious, not trying to be antagonistic. · Katefan0^(scribble) 16:58, August 11, 2005 (UTC)

In that case, wouldn't everyone in the world have to be listed here, thereby debasing the value of this article somewhat? Hayford Peirce 17:10, 11 August 2005 (UTC)

No, because not everyone can reasonably be said to subscribe to Freud's theory. But considering that he is the one who promulgated it, it would seem to be a reasonable assumption that he would apply the theory to himself as well. · Katefan0^(scribble) 17:11, August 11, 2005 (UTC)

You mean that only people who actively subscribe to a particular theory can be said to fall within a certain group? By that reckoning, a 17th-century Polynesian who had sex with both men and women would not be considered bisexual because he had never heard of Sigmund Freud. Hayford Peirce 17:26, 11 August 2005 (UTC)

Philosophical flights of fancy aside, the bar that must be passed for inclusion in this article is whether or not there is sufficient documentation that a person was was GLB. My point was that if Freud is the one who promulgated the innate bisexuality theory, surely he must believe it of himself or his entire theory would be invalid by his own actions. So the question we're discussing is whether that is or isn't reasonable enough documentation to include him in this list. · Katefan0^(scribble) 17:40, August 11, 2005 (UTC)

Did you guys read Innate bisexuality? His theory was not that everyone was a bisexual. Quoting from that article:

Innate bisexuality (or predisposition to bisexuality) is a term introduced by Sigmund Freud (based on work by his associate Wilhelm Fliess), and later used (and misused) by many to refer to the theory that all (or most) humans are capable of physical attraction to both sexes.

and

The conclusions that he draws are based on the fact (which was actually incorrect) that at early stages of development, humans undergo a period of hermaphrodism. Based on this, he asserts that, "the conception which we gather from this long known anatomical fact is the original predisposition to bisexuality, which in the course of development has changed to monosexuality, leaving slight remnants of the stunted sex."

Paul August ☎ 18:08, August 11, 2005 (UTC)

Paul his theory states that everyone is born bisexual but through human development as we age we become monosexual or heterosexual and at the same time there is ALWAYS latent bisexuality. Therefore that means he believes at least he was bisexual as a youth and if he formed "correctly" he became predominantly heterosexual while keeping his latent bisexuality. Which warrants an inclusion. That entry is incorrect and I will fix it. See below:

"Although Freud's understanding of perversions is to a large extent determined by his views on heterosexual normality, he insists that the exclusive sexual interest felt by men for women is "a problem that needs to be elucidated," since heterosexual object-choice is not a given of biology accompanying psychic development from the outset, but the culmination of this development that, in most cases, proves unsatisfactory and unstable."

Freud began to develop in the years before the publication of the Three Essays a conception of bisexuality as a fundamental psychical structure common to all humans and independent of any biological substrate. According to Freud, bisexuality is the actual psychical basis of heterosexuality and homosexuality, for both constitute compromise formations based on the narrowing of sexual choice.

Since unconscious bisexuality is postulated as existing in a state of latency in all heterosexuals and as an explanatory principle of homosexual object choice, Freud rejects the hypothesis of a separate "third sex" as propounded, for example, by Karl Heinrich Ulrichs, one of the forerunners of the homosexual emancipation movement in Germany." 70.57.82.114 20:38, 11 August 2005 (UTC)

And even the quote you cited makes it clear. "the conception which we gather from this long known anatomical fact is the original predisposition to bisexuality, which in the course of development has changed to monosexuality, leaving slight remnants of the stunted sex." Translation: humans are born bisexual but develop into heterosexuals (in healthy cases), however remnants of the bisexual attractions will always remain, of course to varying degrees dependent on how healthy your development was. 70.57.82.114 21:00, 11 August 2005 (UTC)

Julius Caesar?

I've removed Julius Caesar.

During Sulla's proscriptions, Caesar being the son-in-law of Lucius Cornelius Cinna, one of Sulla's greatest enemies, fled Rome, ending up eventually at the court of the Bithynian king Nicomedes III. Because of Caesars prolonged stay at court, rumors arose that Caesar and Nicomedes were lovers. These rumors were spread (and perhaps created) by Caesars enemies like Marcus Calpurnius Bibulus, and repeated by the ancient historian Suetonius. Caesar apparently denied these charges, and although perhaps true, they remain at best rumors.

There was also the accusation of Mark Antony against his enemy Caesar Augustus, that he had earned his adoption by Caesar through sexual favors. But again Antony is not an unbiased source, and even Suetonius calls this charge political slander.

Paul August ☎ 18:13, August 11, 2005 (UTC)

Can you please give references? This if from the article:

• Cicero says that "the virginity of this son of Venus was lost in Bithynia" with King Nicomedes. Licinius Calvus was quoted as "whate’er Bithynia had, and Caesar’s paramour (predicator, active partner in anal sex)". Dollabella said that Caesar is "the queen’s rival, the inner partner of the royal couch" and Curio called him "the brothel of Nicomedes and the stew of Bithynia". Bibulus named Caesar the "queen of Bithynia" saying that "of yore he was enamoured of a king, but now of a king’s estate". Gaius Memmius made analogy to Ganymede by stating that Caesar was the "cupbearer to Nicomedes with the rest of his wantons". It was said that soldiers sang mockingly that "Caesar conquered the Gauls, but Nicomedes conquered Caesar".

In ancient Rome male homosexuality was common and widespread throughout society, but it was thought to be improper for a freeborn boy or man to be penetrated anally as Caesar was in his youth. For a man or boy to participate in the passive role during anal sex it generally indicated that they were a slave or one that had earned his freedom. Under Roman law emancipated slaves may still be required to render certain services, including sexual ones, to their former master. [1]

• Mark Antony charged that Gaius Julius Caesar Octavianus had earned his adoption by Caesar through sexual favors. Suetonius while saying that Caesar's affair with Nicomedes is true described Antony's accusation of an affair with Octavian as political slander. The boy would become the first Roman Emperor following Caesar's death. [2]

And it is backed with references. To the best of my knowledge Caesar never denied his relation with Nicomedes. Can you provide a source? 70.57.82.114 20:19, 11 August 2005 (UTC)

To Be or Not?

pete 03:12, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

Julius Caesar is now listed both under confirmed and questionable ... let's have it one place or the other!?

What are the guidelines for how important someone needs to be to be added to the list? For example, is a business owner who's recognized as an expert in his field someone we would want added? Am I asking this question in the wrong place by tacking it onto this? (This is my first posting ... please be kind!)

Archiving

Any objections? It's getting rather long. If not, I'm going to do it in a second here. · Katefan0^(scribble) 21:04, August 11, 2005 (UTC)

Go ahead, but can you leave Caesar and Freud? I insist they be included. 70.57.82.114 21:25, 11 August 2005 (UTC)

Yes, of course. I'll only archive the oldest discussions. · Katefan0^(scribble) 21:46, August 11, 2005 (UTC)

Caesar and Freud

Essentially the facts say:

Caesar slept with King Nicomedes

• • In order for him to be removed from the list you will need a citation of where he denied this.

Freud's theory states all humans are born bisexual and through healthy development become predominantly heterosexual and latently bisexual.

• • I am not really sure how you can refute that. lol

70.57.82.114 21:28, 11 August 2005 (UTC)

Caesar's prodigious bisexuality was a matter of common knowledge in his lifetime - one contemporary joke was, (I forget the exact latin) "The husband of every woman, and the wife of every man." His sexuality is discussed in his biography.

Freud seems to be saying the small children are inherently bisexual, then outgrow it if they are "normal". That's a far crying from him admitting any personal bisexuality.

So, I think we should include Caesar and exclude Freud. -Willmcw 21:56, August 11, 2005 (UTC)

Yes, after having read more thoroughly through the theory he put forth, I don't think that there's any way he could definitively be included, barring some other statements from him personally. · Katefan0^(scribble) 22:03, August 11, 2005 (UTC)

What about Freud saying even those who had healthy development retaining "latent bisexuality"? Would that not make him included? I mean after all he said even the most heterosexual of persons had some residual bisexuality. It may be that he never acted on his "residual bisexuality", but one does not need to have sex to be one, all the is required is the attractions, however little. 70.57.82.114 23:17, 11 August 2005 (UTC)

Look, let's say that Freud wrote a famous essay in which he said that all human beings, as infants, are latent cannibals. But that most people, as they grow up, lose this latency. Absent evidence to the contrary, would we then put Freud into a List of Famous Cannibals? Maybe you would; I wouldn't. Ditto about putting Freud in a List of Famous GLB.... Hayford Peirce 23:38, 11 August 2005 (UTC)

But he said all people retain at least some bisexuality as adults as children they are dominantly bisexual. Do you see what I am saying? He said all adults are bisexual. There is not a single adult in the universe according to his theories that is completely heterosexual or homosexual. I.e. you can be at most 99% heterosexual, but you are still 1% bisexual, that qualifies him for the list. 70.57.82.114 00:14, 12 August 2005 (UTC)

Hayford your analogy is flawed because Freud never said most people lose their bisexuality as adults, in fact he said nobody could lose it entriely. 70.57.82.114 00:22, 12 August 2005 (UTC)

Based on that evidence alone we either need to include everybody or nobody. Since Freud was not speaking personally, it does not apply exclusively to him. Further, it's not clear that he ever acted on his supposed "latent bisexuality". There has already been debate on this page of whether to include those who have only expressed an homoerotic longing, but for whom there is no evidence of ever acting on the desire. In the case of Freud, I don't think we even have love letters to other men. -Willmcw 00:51, August 12, 2005 (UTC)

Are you suggesting that Freud did not believe in his own theories? And you are not required to act on your bisexuality to be bisexual. Celibate heterosexuals are not asexual, they are celibate heterosexual because they have the attractions, whereas asexual have no attractions. Freud said everyone is at least somewhat bisexual, meaning he too is somewhat bisexual. 70.57.82.114 12:44, 12 August 2005 (UTC)

Well, then, if 100% of the population are at least 1% bisexual, mon cher 70.57.82.114, I then repeat what I wrote earlier in the Freud section: "In that case, wouldn't everyone in the world have to be listed here, thereby debasing the value of this article somewhat? Hayford Peirce 17:10, 11 August 2005 (UTC)" That seems inescapable to me. And since they are probably millions of famous people throughout the ages, a list of famous bisexuals would be an awfully long one.... Wouldn't it be a lot easier just to put on the list those people who are openly bisexual, or who have acknowledged at least some instances of bisexual behavior, or maybe have even acknowledged bisexual thoughts or longings without ever having acted upon them? And then we could leave the rest of it to the Freudians in our crowd.... Hayford Peirce 01:12, 12 August 2005 (UTC)

According to Freud everyone is at least somewhat bisexual. Not everyone has this view so we would not list everyone. If Freud said everyone is at least somewhat bisexual, is that not an open declaration of bisexuality? 70.57.82.114 12:44, 12 August 2005 (UTC)

Quoting from the article:

The following list includes people who have confirmed their homosexuality or bisexuality, or whose homosexuality or bisexuality is not debated.

I don't think one can rightly say that their bisexuality is not debated. Paul August ☎ 02:32, August 12, 2005 (UTC)

Paul, can you cite where Caesar said he did not sleep with Nicomedes? And Freud in his own theories said all humans are at least somewhat bisexual, which since I believe he did regard himself as a human, makes him bisexual somewhat as well. 70.57.82.114 12:44, 12 August 2005 (UTC)

You may be thinking of "debatable" rather than "debated". Unless two or more people debate someone's bisexuality, then it hasn't been debated. I think that there are billions of people alive today whose (potential) bisexuality has never been specifically debated. -Willmcw 06:41, August 12, 2005 (UTC)

Must have homosexual sex to be one or a bisexual?

Let me know if my generalizations are correct:

• • User:Paul August suggests that Caesar denied his relation with King Nicomedes but is unable to find a citation for this claim
  • User:Willmcw suggests that Freud may not have believed in his own theories that all humans are at least somewhat bisexual and even if he did he would need a corresponding sex act to be listed
  • I suggest that they both be added unless someone can provide evidence that Caesar denied his relation with Nicomedes and that Freud did not believe in his own theories.
  • More broadly I reject Willmcw's assertion that you must partake in a sex act to be listed. This is incorrect. The dictionary defines sexual orientation by attractions not sex acts. Otherwise if a heterosexual was raped by a homosexual the heterosexual would now be bisexual for merely being raped. 70.57.82.114 13:34, 12 August 2005 (UTC)

I don't think that peforming a (voluntary) sex act is necessary, but it is a clear indication of orientation. A number of people (all dead) have written seeming love letters or proposed theories, but these are ambiguous. Actually "doing it" is unambiguous. Of course if someone came out and said "I've never had gay sex but I want to", then that would be unambiguous as well. Did Freud ever say anything like that? Cheers, -Willmcw 18:53, August 12, 2005 (UTC)

Certainly most priests would say that they are heterosexual but celibate (set aside that many are neither). I think sexual orientation is far too complex to pin down so neatly, but on the other hand, if you are a guy and you look with sexual attraction at other guys, then quit denying who you are :-) Jliberty 20:16, August 12, 2005 (UTC)

Aldof Hitler

There is no mention in Adolf Hitler article that he was gay. What page must be altered?

First add a mention of his orientation to his biography, with whatever proof the editors over there require. Then add his name here. -Willmcw 12:57, August 20, 2005 (UTC)

Oliver Stone

Can anyone find me the source for Oliver Stone?

There's no mention of orientation in his bio. -Willmcw 13:01, August 20, 2005 (UTC)

Hitler is a flaming queen!!!!!!!!!!!

Marilyn Monroe

Was recently discovered to have had a lesbian affair with Joan Crawford.

Pierre Boulez

Pierre Boulez is missing, he was gay.

The requirements for listing someone in this list is that the individual article on them must contain substantial sourcing that suggests that this person was or is gay. Pierre Boulez, as it's written now, contains nothing addressing his sexuality, therefore he can't be included in this list. · Katefan0^(scribble) 14:36, August 25, 2005 (UTC)

"Bussotti's flamboyant behavior evidently created discomfort in Darmstadt among closeted gay composers such as Boulez and straight ones such as Stockhausen and Luigi Nono." [12] - Outerlimits 17:19, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

That's the sort of information that needs to be added to the individual article first. Then, he can be listed here. · Katefan0^(scribble) 17:28, August 25, 2005 (UTC)

That would be one approach, one I'm no longer bothering fighting. Feel free to add it whereever you like, or feel free to suppress the information because of this "rule". - Outerlimits 17:42, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

It's not one approach. It's the policy for adding to this page: If you wish to add someone to this list please ensure that he or she has a Wikipedia article and that article contains reasonable documentation for inclusion on this list. Feel free to add that information to the article, then you can come back here and add him to the list. · Katefan0^(scribble) 17:50, August 25, 2005 (UTC)

No, it is one approach. There's no official Wikipedia policy about this page. So the choice remains yours: exclude factual information if you wish. - Outerlimits 18:10, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

Sure there is. That's the consensus for the policy for this page. It was arrived at by a consensus of users at some time in the past. You should know, if you don't, that Wikipedia works through consensus. That some people will disagree with consensus decisions is unfortunate but inevitable. To suggest that I am "suppressing" information by not adding it myself is a little silly -- by that definition, you too are "suppressing" information. Have fun · Katefan0^(scribble) 18:20, August 25, 2005 (UTC)

Just so you know, instituting actual policy at Wikipedia involves a much more formal process than taking a vote on a talk page. Changing "Pierre Boulez is a conductor and composer" in his article to "Pierre Boulez is a gay conductor and composer" should "permit" his inclusion here, while his addition to this list with the link provided would be removed if his article is not altered? It's ludicrous. - Outerlimits 18:34, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

Yes, if it's backed up by evidence supporting such a change. I don't think I ever suggested it was Wikipedia-wide policy, I explained pretty clearly that it was a consensus for how this page should operate. · Katefan0^(scribble) 18:48, August 25, 2005 (UTC)

What real sources do we have for this "fact"? I searcha and all I could find was the same quote, one author who says Boulez was closeted? Do we have any names of lovers, etc? -Willmcw 21:19, August 25, 2005 (UTC)

To answer Outerlimit's question about this policy, if we add the word "gay" to Boulez's bio, then that accomplishes several things. One, it informs readers of his bio about his orientation. We can't expect them to come here looking just in case he might be on this list. Two, it gives editors familiar with Boulez's life a chance to review the designation. Personally, I've heard recording of his, but I don't know anything else about him. Editors of his bio are presumably better able to judge, and might have other info (i.e. he was married to a woman, he was the lover of Bernstein, etc.). Lastly, it gives us, as editors of this article, a clear criteria for inclusion. Otherwise we are in the position of debating each and every entry. Like now. -Willmcw 00:09, August 26, 2005 (UTC)

Well, yes. I really didn't intend to start another debate, but yes, I think that we need not debate entries with sources given, and that we should follow the official Wikipedia policy of "cite your sources" rather than "say they're gay in some other article". Meanwhile, I sincerely salute Willmcw for his diligence in actually listening to Boulez's compositions...I find them interminable. As for lover's names: Norman Lebrecht, in his book The Maestro Myth, p. 183, writes that Boulez's German lover, named Hans Messmer, is traditionally introduced as Boulez's "valet". I can also reliably aver that Boulez has not been married to any of the available sexes, and that Bernstein's and Boulez's egos could not fit comfortably together in one bed. - Outerlimits 00:37, 26 August 2005 (UTC) (as a post-script for Kate, let me hold forth on one of my own pet peeves: yes, "consensus" means "unanimous", everywhere but on Wikipedia. If anyone disagrees with a decision (in the real world) it's not a consensus decision. We've simply agreed to misuse the word here because it's easier than explaining what's actually meant - which is roughly "no one with the power to do so objects enough to be bothered making a fuss". <g>. - Outerlimits 00:37, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

I've added your citation to the Pierre Boulez and added his name back to the list. Without prolonging this discussion unnecessarily, I would register a protest against calling the biographies of people on this list "some other articles". They are the chief repositories of everything worthwhile that we know about those people. If being LGBT is in any way notable, then that info should be in the biography. If it isn't notable then we should delete this page. -Willmcw 01:35, August 26, 2005 (UTC)

It's not notable/not-notable. There are degrees of notability. That's one reason WIkipedia includes lists; a collection of people who share a common thing can be interesting even when that thing-in-common is not a major facet in their biography. A person's individual article need not - indeed, should not - contain every fact included in WIkipedia related to them. - Outerlimits 02:06, 26 August 2005 (UTC) (P.S.: just as an example: it's not at all clear that Pierre Boulez's sexuality is at all important to understanding his life or his work, while Ned Rorem is a gay composer who's practically professionally gay.) - Outerlimits 23:43, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

Achilles

Removed Achilles. Fictional/mythological characters don't belong on this list. - ExRat 00:10, 27 August 2005 (UTC)

Neil Patrick Harris

I removed Neil Patrick Harris from the list. Harris has never stated that he was gay or bisexual and refuses to comment on his sexuality. No proof exists of him being gay or bisexual except for tabloid speculation. If someone wishes to add him to the "Debated" section, then possibly. But, I don't think he should be in the "Confirmed" section. - ExRat 00:40, 27 August 2005 (UTC)

I moved Harris to the disputed section because there is a discussion of his orientation in his bio. -Willmcw 06:27, August 27, 2005 (UTC)

He might belong in "disputed" if anyone actually contended he is heterosexual. But no one has. I don't know of any citable source that makes the claim that he's not gay. Perhaps there needs to be an "undisputed and unconfirmed" section. - Outerlimits 18:45, 27 August 2005 (UTC)

Or maybe we could just rename the existing section to broaden its definition. -Willmcw 19:08, August 27, 2005 (UTC)

He came out publicly in 2006, the very next year after all these comments - see the Wikipedia article on him.213.127.210.95 (talk) 22:07, 27 July 2016 (UTC)

Marie Antoinette

I removed her entry because her article specifically says the claims of lesbianism were untrue. GinaDana 23:58, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

Problems

Far too many people are mentioned here as Gay, and yet there is no mention of that in their article. I think either that should be remedied, or this page be locked. Otherwise we risk loseing credibility.

We've been waiting for someone to spend the time to go through the listing methodically. New entries are being watched, but previously-listed entries have not been reviewed. Care to do so? -Willmcw 21:32, September 4, 2005 (UTC)

PS, if you do undertake the effort, please make sure to document your work here or in the edit summaries so that other editors will know what you're doing. Thanks, -Willmcw 23:08, September 4, 2005 (UTC)

You people are heading for a lawsuit

Not to muddy the waters...

...but should all transgendered people necessarily be listed here? If a man undergoes a sex change operation and remains attracted to men, he's not really strictly gay. Maybe this article should be renamed to List of famous gay, lesbian, bisexual or transgendered people or fork the transgendered celebrities to List of famous transgendered people to avoid confusion. · Katefan0^(scribble) 20:38, September 6, 2005 (UTC)

Transgendered people aren't. They already have their own list. This is why it is List of gay, lesbian and bisexual people. Ambi 21:04, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

Can you point me to that list? Also, isn't there naturally some overlap? Can't someone be both transgendered and gay? Not sure how to resolve this question except maybe to merge. · Katefan0^(scribble) 21:11, September 6, 2005 (UTC)

The list is at List of transgendered people. There's no need to merge - the two have been working quite well as seperate articles for a couple of years. If someone is transgendered and also lesbian, gay or bisexual, then of course they belong here, but otherwise no. Ambi 21:27, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

So you would support duplicatively listing them in both places, but not a merge? May I ask why? · Katefan0^(scribble) 22:32, September 6, 2005 (UTC)

No, that's not what I said. There is a list of transpeople. And there is a list of GLB people. If a transperson is also GLB, then they belong on that list deservedly. If not, then the ordinary list suffices. Ambi 13:57, 8 September 2005 (UTC)

Merging this list to an existing category

It seems that this list is quite unwieldy (there have been suggestions of breaking it down somehow); at the same time it seems to be doing the same job as Category:Gay,_lesbian_or_bisexual_people. Would it not make sense to merge the two?

A lot of work, I know, but worthwhile I think.

For what purpose? It's convention not to delete lists because of a somewhat equivalent category, and I don't think this list is overly unwieldy. Ambi 13:57, 8 September 2005 (UTC)

Vin Diesel

Removed Vin Diesel from the "Confirmed" list. No confirmation, simply conjecture and rumor. - ExRat 00:18, 10 September 2005 (UTC)

Eleanor Roosevelt

Removed Eleanor Roosevelt from the "Confirmed" section. While there has been some speculation of her "relationships" with other women, this has never been confirmed. Most of the rumors about her allegedly "lesbianism" or "bisexuality" are simply that; rumors, and have never been proven. She does not belong on the "Confirmed" section in my opinion. - ExRat 00:23, 10 September 2005 (UTC)

Suggestion for deleting individuals with no Wiki bio/page.

Since I have noticed several posts describing the article as "unwieldy" and "large", I was wondering what everyone thought of eliminationg the "red" individuals from the list who have no Wikipedia bio or page. I think it may be helpful in curtailing some of the bulkiness of the page. If they have no bio page then perhaps they could be included when they do have when instead of taking up spaces that don't lead anywhere. Also, if they have no page/bio then it is harder to confirm if they should actually be included here. What does everyone think? Good idea? Bad idea? - ExRat 00:33, 10 September 2005 (UTC)

Alexander the Great

Alexadner the Great was never considered bisexual until lately because of the well known film "Troy" which depicted him as exactly what says in the List: Alexander the Great, Macedonian King and conqueror of Eurasia, bisexual, had a relationship with Hephaestion, his childhood friend, as well as several wives and male lovers. However in the main wikipedia article for Alexander the Great we can read: The suggestion that Alexander was homosexual or bisexual remains highly controversial and excites passions in some quarters in Greece, the Republic of Macedonia, and diasporas thereof. People of various national, ethnic and cultural origins regard him as a national hero. They argue that historical accounts describing Alexander's relations with Hephaestion and Bagoas as sexual were written centuries after the fact, and thus it can never be established what the 'real' relationship between Alexander and his male companions were. Others argue that the same can be said about all our information regarding Alexander. Therefore as long as it is not at all sure and furthermore "anachronistic", not to mention that him being add to the list is just the impact of a movie to some, I suggest that Alexander the Great is removed from the list.

Suggestion

I suggest whoever ADDS people shall write the reasons and sources here otherwise they are removed. These lists are very difficult to maintain therefore some kind of "strict" rules can be applied in order to maintain accuracy.

Joan Armatrading

Joan Armatrading, singer-songwriter. There is no indiaction of her sexuality in her article, nor on her "official" website, which is the sole external link from the articel at present. On Wikipedioa:Help Desk, an anon poster said:

"Singer-songwriter Joan Armatrading's name appears in Wikipedia's list of, Confirmed Homosexuals and Bisexuals.

I know there are many people who are convinced she is a lesbian or at least lesbian/bi but Joan herself has never confirmed or denied this.

She has always been very protective of her private life. ... However I have to ask where is Wikipedia's confirmation?"

I must echo the question -- no confirming or even supporting evidencee seems to be on wikipedia at present. DES ^(talk) 15:19, 14 September 2005 (UTC)

Abraham Lincoln

I have temporarily removed American president Abraham Lincoln from the article due to the number of times he has been added and deleted with frequency. There is, in my opinion, little evidence to support the claim of Lincoln's alleged homosexuality. The biography, The Intimate World of Abraham Lincoln written by author C.A. Tripp has been discussed and generally dismissed by most reliable historians. If we are going to start adding people simply because of rumour, innuendo, tabloid articles, and somewhat dubious "biographies", then we are certainly going to have to enlarge the page by thousands of entries. Please folks, let's not be revisionists and let's show a little discretion when deciding who should and shouldn't be included. Merely because something is printed, doesn't make it so. There are a numbe rof individulas who absolutely do not belong on this page already, and seem to be added on the shoddiest evidence. So, let's have a discussion about Lincoln instead of the constant Wiki Edit War. My vote is to not include. - ExRat 21:48, 25 September 2005 (UTC)

We've been around this many times. Tripp and other legitimate historians find strong evidence; other historians disagree (see previous discussions). That is what the section is for, people about whom there is a contrversy. This entry is not based on rumor or innuendo, tabloid article or dubious biographies -- it is based on serious evidence by established historians, though not without controversy. Beyond that, Lincoln's sexuality, and for that matter, the controversy about his sexuality, is of significant historic interest. Jliberty 01:47, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

I agree with ExRat

I do not agree with ExRat. Why shouldn't we say that Lincoln is at least disputed? Do we think that being gay or bisexual is so bad that we owe it to Abe for posterity to believe he was definitely hetero? It is just like Roger Casement, who lost all support from Irish nationalists when rumours about some diaries emerged proving he was gay. Is it remotely possible that an American hero might be gay? Deal with it.

- It is indeed possible for an American hero (POV anyway) to be gay. But, Wikipedia is a compendium of FACTS. Don't try to use alleged bias and homphobia. I merely opened a discussion because of the constant additions and deletions. I'm sure others could use the argument of personal politics for wanting Lincoln placed on the list. I would also like to know of the other sources people keep claiming exist other than this biography. ExRat 23:04, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

I think the rumors that Lincoln was gay thing is explained here

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/040402.html

F.T.R. I suspect President James Buchanan was gay.

That Lincoln's sexuality is debated is a fact. Lincoln should be in the debated section. see The Intimate World of Abraham Lincoln. The book was reviewed in the Washington Post which claimed " The author has failed to prove his case, but he has compiled enough suggestive material to ensure that Lincoln's sexuality will remain a matter of debate."

The place to debate this is talk:Abraham Lincoln. According the criteria of this list established by vote-prven consensus, people will be added only if there is a mention of their orientation in their article. This case fulfills that criteria. Continued removal of Lincoln's name from this article is a violation of the consensus. -Willmcw 01:30, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

For Inclusion- Ani DiFranco and Portia de Rossi

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ani_Difranco

Ani DiFranco, identifies as bisexual

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portia_de_Rossi

Portia de Rossi, identifies as lesbian

Neither of these women are on the list!

Peter Paige

Shouldn't he be moved to the confirmed list? I thought he came out in The Advocate. Or somewhere. I just know I've never heard anybody say he's straight. 69.66.124.179 18:44, 3 October 2005 (UTC) Wapiko

Tarkan

He is on both lists: "confirmed" and "debated". Some consistency needed

Thanks for pointing that out. Since there is no confirmation of the rumors, I removed his name fomr the "undisputed" section. Cheers, -Willmcw 21:00, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

Separate list for "debated" people

I strongly oppose having a separate list for those of debated sexuality. Having the lists together makes it much easier to maintain. Otherwise there would be duplication. There are many lists longer than this, and it is easily edited by section, so I see no reason to rush to split it up. -Willmcw 03:13, 9 October 2005 (UTC)

I'm confused

Ok so we have a transvestite listed and a guy who had sex with a transvestite listed so why not gein? grazon 22:44, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

Transvestites who are not homosexual should be listed in list of transgendered people. Guys who knowingly have sex with transvestites are usually considered gay or bisexual. In the case of Gein, he isn't even a conventional transvestite. Dressing oneself in women's tanned skins is way beyond the definition of transvestism. -Willmcw 22:35, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

Ok.

But in that case shouldn't there be mention of the fact that Dreuxilla Divine is a homosexual in Dreuxilla's page?

grazon 22:44, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

There is, indirectly. You'll see that he is categorized under "Gay, lesbian or bisexual people". -Willmcw 22:49, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

Isn't that kinda circular evidence?

grazon 22:53, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

No, there it isn't circular because, so far as I know, it wasn't added due to Divine's presence on this list. However, I don't know why or on what evidence someone added that category to that biography. You might ask on that talk page. -Willmcw 23:10, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

Karl Rove

I have removed republican party strategist and Deputy White House Chief of Staff Karl Rove from the Disputed page. I have never read anything with any compelling evidence to suggest that he his gay or bisexual. The site that was given as some sort of proof that Rove is gay {http://www.bushstole04.com/gannon_article_10.htm} is an absolutely slanted POV site. The fact that the page is entitled "Bush Stole '04" should have been a clue. While I might not personally like the man at all, I think this addition was merely a political attack. Discretion, discretion, discretion! Please! This page, I'm afaraid is getting to be like a witch-hunt, with people being included on the flimsiest of evidence.ExRat 03:23, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

In this case, as in the case of Shane MacGowan below and almost every other case, the only explanation that we really need to hear is "the bio doesn't mention his orientation." It is up to the biography editors to decide how to handle the matter, not the editors of this list. (Though I think that we'd be sympathetic to making an exception if someone said that bio editors refused to allow an orientation mention for POV reasons despite ample sourcing. That certainly doesn't appear to be the case here.) Cheers, -Willmcw 07:04, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

Shane MacGowan

I have removed former Pogues lead singer Shane MacGowan from the Disputed list. I have been a die-hard fan of the Pogues and MacGowan for many years and have never at any point heard anything to suggest that MacGowan was anything but heterosexual. I am willing to concede that he may be, but hell, anyone may be. But, where's the evidence?ExRat 03:27, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

Glen Potter

I removed:

• Glen Potter, South African born singer, currently residing in Australia.

because I was unable to locate evidence of this. If someone does, please put it back. Deco 03:52, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

sorry to add the people but they are/were gay

Gary Ray Bowles Colin Ireland John Joubert Patrick Mackay Nico Claux Dennis Nilsen Alton Coleman Andrei Chikatilo? Herb Baumeister Marie Hilley Dean Corll

serial killer

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 132.241.245.132 (talk • contribs) 06:18, October 17, 2005.

Please sign your talk page comments, you know how. Please also respect the community consensus which has decided that "...inclusion in this list must be supported by the evidence discussed in the person's biography article." The majority of your entries thus far have not meet that criteria, so I've removed them. Unfortunately, serial killers have become so common that they are not automatically notable. Thanks, -Willmcw 06:53, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

Ricky Martin

Shouldn't Ricky Martin be removed, there is no evidence that he is gay; sure there has been questions made about him being gay, but he has not confirmed or denied this.

I removed the name and left a note at talk:Ricky Martin explaining the reasoning - that there has to be a mention in that article. -Willmcw 21:19, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

Leslie Fish

Would Leslie Fish be considered too obscure a figure to bother placing on this list? Her relationship with Mary Frohman, among others, is public record, and while I do not off-hand know of her relationships with men, her stated position (rightly or wrongly) has always been that bisexuality is the human norm. -Schol-R-LEA (talk • contribs)

If she is notable enough to have an article in Wikipedia, and that article mentions her orientation, then that is sufficient for inclusion in this list per our criteria. -Willmcw 03:30, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

I see. While she does have an entry, nothing is mentioned of her personal life. -Schol-R-LEA (talk • contribs)

Why don't you go ahead and add the info you've given us here to that article. Assuming that other editors of that article don't object to its inclusion (due to unverifiability, etc.) then you can add the name here. Cheers, -Willmcw 03:45, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

George Takei (actor, "Star Trek")

10/28/2005 - George Takei, who as helmsman Sulu steered the Starship Enterprise through three television seasons and six movies, has come out as a homosexual in the current issue of Frontiers, a biweekly Los Angeles magazine covering the gay and lesbian community. "The world has changed from when I was a young teen feeling ashamed for being gay," he said. "The issue of gay marriage is now a political issue. That would have been unthinkable when I was young." The 68-year-old actor said he and his partner, Brad Altman, have been together for 18 years. Takei, a Japanese-American who lived in a U.S. internment camp from age 4 to 8, said he grew up feeling ashamed of his ethnicity and sexuality. He likened prejudice against gays to racial segregation. (Source: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051028/ap_on_en_tv/people_george_takei;_ylt=AnLdVOdZbtq3Ni9t51PMKySs0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTA3ODdxdHBhBHNlYwM5NjQ-)

Anthony George (actor, "Dark Shadows")

George was know to many horror fans as "Burke Devlin" in the U.S. supernatural soap-opera, "Dark Shadows". George died of complications from emphysema on March 16 2005. His obituary noted that he is survived by his partner Robert Watson, along with two brothers and a sister. (Source: http://www.collinwood.net/cast/george.htm)

debated

the "debated" part of this list is extremely annoying, and essentially just slander. please restrict the list to verifiable, substantiated cases. Frederick II of Prussia, for example:

Some sources (Voltaire) indicate that Frederick was homosexual, it remains unclear whether he ever acted upon these supposed tendencies.

so a sarcastic comment from Voltaire is enough to make Frederick a homosexual for all posterity? Please. It cannot be enough that 'somebody made some oblique remark', otherwise virtually anybody could end up on his list ("his school buddies are recorded to have called him 'gay'" -- "list him, he's a homo!" - what gives??) Baad 13:44, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

If you don't think that Voltaire is a credible source for Frederick then go to that article and say so there. (Though he might not be the only source). This list just follows what is written in the biographies, so it is up to those editors to decide whether an assertion about orientation is notable, verifiable, or should be deleted. And no, calling someone gay is not slander. -Willmcw 19:41, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

Why are you clutching at straws. Wouldn't you be better of with Walt Whitman, Em Forster And Michelangelo [anon comment]

well, it depends on whom you call gay. If you were to call me gay, I would consider it slander. The entire point is that Humboldt and Frederick are not around anymore to deny the charges. So, if you must keep the 'debated' part, it may be useful to give some sort of indication of the evidence. "being called gay by Voltaire" (you know Voltaire, I assume?) or "has never shown emotional interest in women" (Humboldt) is hardly the same sort of evidence as "liked to parade about in women's colthes attended by youths" (Henry III) -- I have no objection to listing the latter here at all. But to call a scholar gay because he never married is really approaching the slanderous. Baad 22:39, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

The evidence belongs in the biography of the subject, this is just a list. -Willmcw 23:31, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

Split out bisexuals

Statement by proposer This is silly to have dual maintenance - a massive list of Gay/Lesbian/Bisexual, and another massive list of Bisexual. It would be much better from a non-duplication-of-info-in-two-places sense to split out the bisexual people and ensure they are in the sub-lists at List of bisexuals. We have already split out transgender, and pansexual people into separate lists, so I think it's overall much less dual maintenance and many fewer opportunities for incorrect contents to simply split out the bisexuals from here as well. Bisexuals have their own Category:Bisexual people category, so they don't need to be glommed together with gay people in this list. Obviously, after we split we would need to do a rename.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 15:19, 30 May 2014 (UTC)

Discussion

• support, as nom.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 17:08, 30 May 2014 (UTC)

I'm neutral on this proposal, but as a point of order, I'd observe that 'transgender' is a category orthogonal to 'lesbian, gay, or bisexual', while 'pansexual' certainly isn't. AlexTiefling (talk) 15:31, 30 May 2014 (UTC)

I guess so... but bisexual could be considered orthogonal, at least as an identity to gay or lesbian.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 15:38, 30 May 2014 (UTC)

In some respects. I've debated this one back and forth at bi activist events, and still don't have a good answer. Let's say that pansexual and bisexual aren't orthogonal, at any rate. Transgender is definitely a different kettle of fish, though. AlexTiefling (talk) 15:44, 30 May 2014 (UTC)

I think it's fair to say that bisexual is not a special kind of gay, no? Anyway, it's getting a bit offtopic. They are listed here as bisexual. I'm proposing we just reduce duplication and only list them in one place.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 16:03, 30 May 2014 (UTC)

I'd be the first to say that bisexual is not just a special kind of gay! My point was that being transgender isn't a sexual orientation at all. For what it's worth, I'll support any practicable solution which avoids duplication and gives us a single, well-sourced, list of bisexual people. AlexTiefling (talk) 16:09, 30 May 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 19 May 2015

I'd like to add Louise Madonna Ciccone, AKA Madonna, to the list of bisexual people

Indigofem1 (talk) 22:07, 19 May 2015 (UTC)

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Cannolis (talk) 22:42, 19 May 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 19 May 2015

I'd like to add Eve Salvail to the lesbians

Indigofem1 (talk) 22:17, 19 May 2015 (UTC)

Done Cannolis (talk) 22:42, 19 May 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 7 July 2015

Please add Miley Cyrus into the list of celebrities starting with C. She recently came out as bisexual and is dating a Victoria's Secret Model. I think she belongs on this list as she is a very famous and significant person that many people know of. Thankyou very much Jasminecliffordxoxo (talk) 09:21, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

Caution. Not "yes" or "no" yet, but need further information. When it comes to these lists, Wikipedia does not add people to them on the basis of statements about their sexual behaviour — we add people to them on the basis of the identity labels that they do or don't use to describe themselves. That is, no matter how well we can source the fact that a person has had sexual relationships with both men and women, we don't describe or list them as bisexual until we can properly source them as using the specific word "bisexual" to describe themselves.

A person who has been behaviourally bisexual can identify as "bisexual", as the general and non-specific "LGBT", as "queer", as "pansexual", as "omnisexual", as "fluid", as "gay/lesbian", as "straight", or as "I reject all labels and just identify as sexual" — but for our purposes, what we care about is the word that they use for themselves, and not the sexual behaviour that they evince. Because people's sexual activity doesn't always correspond cleanly to their innate orientation (just think, frex, of the many gays or lesbians who have dated or even married people of the opposite sex before coming out), the word they use for themselves trumps their activity record.

I'm fully aware of what's been publicized about Miley Cyrus' sexuality of late, but what I haven't seen is any source in which "bisexual" is the identity label which she associates herself socially and politically and culturally — what we need is a reliable source in which she uses the specific word "bisexual" to describe her identity, not a source in which she simply talks about having had sex with both men and women. If you can find an appropriate source which satisfies that standard, then by all means bring it on — but she can't be added to the list without one. Bearcat (talk) 17:59, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made.  ^B E _C K ^Y _S A ^{Y L} E _S  19:42, 8 July 2015 (UTC)

External links modified

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Existence of this very article

We need an article on straight people because right now they are either discriminated against or the article is heteronormative. --2001:16B8:2E30:3A00:DCEF:1E72:50DC:731 (talk) 21:33, 9 May 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 11 July 2018

Nicholas Magill - British gay rights activist and AA mechanic Sandynicks (talk) 17:33, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Also, I'm not finding an article for anyone by that name. Please write the article first if need be. ‑‑ElHef (Meep?) 17:45, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

Wikipedia "Featured list"

The following lists of gay, lesbian or bisexual people have received Featured list status for Culture and society:

· A · R · Sa–Sc · Sd–Si · Sj–Sz · T–V · W–Z (7 lists).  Pyxis Solitary yak 12:56, 11 July 2019 (UTC)

Oda Nobunaga, Takeda Shingen (both bi)

In Sengoku Japan, there wasn't any taboo about lying with other men. That practice was called a Shudou and Oda Nobunaga and Takeda Shingen were known for having had relationships with boys named Mori Ranmaru and Kosaka Masanobu, the former of which is a popular subject of yaoi mangas thanks to his "reputation". Oda Nobunaga and Takeda Shingen could be considered bi as both had wives but at the same time had Shudou relationships. This book says that Ranmaru was Nobunaga's "handsome young lover", hence the Daimyo that unified Japan was a bi. As for Shingen, Kosaka Masanobu's own Wikipedia page claims he had a "love relationship" (not sexual, but still romantic) with Shingen.

https://books.google.it/books?id=1ha9GgWNmy0C&pg=PA283&lpg=PA283&dq=nobunaga+ranmaru+sex&source=bl&ots=MMNvrcwUDn&sig=ACfU3U1H8wsFs_gG1hCAn24yxyQ9XeEuwA&hl=it&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwin1vifnLrnAhXOGuwKHT69CgkQ6AEwA3oECAoQAQ#v=onepage&q=nobunaga%20ranmaru%20sex&f=false

This source also states Nobunaga and Shingen have had sex with boys

https://books.google.it/books?id=a6q-PqPDAmIC&pg=PA53&lpg=PA53&dq=were+shingen+and+kosaka+lovers?&source=bl&ots=Kz7ixftmCa&sig=ACfU3U1ugkvQGr_KQnwXHamt4tmvJ7iEZg&hl=it&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjyqrrznrrnAhWE26QKHXbvDZUQ6AEwBHoECAoQAQ#v=onepage&q=were%20shingen%20and%20kosaka%20lovers%3F&f=false 79.12.49.221 (talk) 10:54, 5 February 2020 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. Western identification of persons as "gay" or "bi" do not apply to historical Japan. See the list inclusion criteria for more. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 21:56, 6 February 2020 (UTC)