Talk:List of countries and territories by land and maritime borders

Splitting the table

As it stands the list proves simply confusing, and shockingly long. I propose that the dependent territories be siphoned off into their own little table (or just deleted). Antarctic territories could go into another table altogether, they only border each other anyway. Of course, the main table should have both the Countries including dependencies, and without, like the UK is now.

As for states with limited recognition, I think they're best represented in the table with other states, but they should be added to bordering countries. For example, South Ossetia says it borders Russia and Georgia, but neither Georgia or Russia say they border South Ossetia. Putting it in italics in the side would in my opinion be the most NPOV option. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 16:39, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

Since it is in alphabetical order I'm not sure that length is a concern. There are a lot of territories in the world, so it will be long. In general it could be improved w.r.t. places of limited recognition. Good Ol’factory ^(talk) 21:32, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

Test

Country or territory (Territories without full sovereignty in italics)	No. of land border neighbours	No. of maritime boundary neighbours	Total no. of unique neighbours	Neighbouring countries and territories (Territories without full sovereignty in italics) (L) = share only land borders (M) = share only maritime boundaries blank = share land borders and maritime boundaries
Abkhazia	2	4	4	Georgia Russia Turkey (M) Ukraine (M)
Adélie Land (France)	1	1	1	Australian Antarctic Territory (Australia)
Afghanistan	7	0	7	People's Republic of China (L) India (L) Iran (L) Pakistan (L) Tajikistan (L) Turkmenistan (L) Uzbekistan (L)
Akrotiri and Dhekelia (United Kingdom)	1 (2)	3	3 (4)	Cyprus Egypt (M) Lebanon (M)
				Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus (L)
Albania	4	4	6	Croatia (M) Greece Italy (M) Republic of Macedonia (L) Montenegro Serbia (L)
				Kosovo (L) Borders Kosovo, which some countries consider to be part of Serbia
Algeria	6 (7)	4	8 (9)	Italy (M) Libya (L) Mali (L) Mauritania (L) Morocco Niger (L) Spain (M) Tunisia
				Western Sahara (L)
American Samoa (United States)	0	3 (5)	3 (5)	Samoa (M) Tonga (M)
				Cook Islands(New Zealand)(M) Niue(New Zealand)(M) Tokelau(New Zealand) (M)
Amsterdam Island and Île Saint-Paul (France)	0	0	0
Andorra	2	0	2	France (L) Spain (L)
Angola	4	3	4	Democratic Republic of the Congo Republic of the Congo Namibia Zambia (L)
Anguilla (United Kingdom)	0	4	4	Antigua and Barbuda (M)
				Netherlands Antilles(Netherlands)(M) Saint Martin(France)(M) United States Virgin Islands(United States)(M)
Antártica Chilena Province (Chile)	2	3	3	Argentine Antarctica(Argentina) British Antarctic Territory(United Kingdom) Peter I Island(Norway) (M)
Antigua and Barbuda	0	3 (5)	3 (5)	France (M) Saint Kitts and Nevis (M)
				Anguilla(United Kingdom) (M) Montserrat(United Kingdom) (M) Saint Barthélemy(France) (M)
Argentina	5	3	6	Bolivia (L) Brazil (L) Chile Paraguay (L) Uruguay
				Falkland Islands(United Kingdom) (M)
Argentine Antarctica (Argentina)	2	2	2	Antártica Chilena Province (Chile) British Antarctic Territory (United Kingdom)
Armenia	4 (5)	0	4 (5)	Azerbaijan (L) Georgia (L) Iran (L) Turkey (L)
				Nagorno-Karabakh (L)
Aruba (Netherlands)	0	1	1	Venezuela (M)
Ashmore and Cartier Islands (Australia)	0	1	1	Indonesia (M)
Australia →includes: →Ashmore and Cartier Islands →Christmas Island →Cocos (Keeling) Islands →Heard Island and McDonald Islands → Macquarie Island →Norfolk Island	0	6 (7)	6 (7)	East Timor (M) Indonesia (M) New Zealand (M) Papua New Guinea (M) Solomon Islands (M)
				Kerguelen Islands(France) (M) New Caledonia(France) (M)
Australia (excluding outlying islands)	0	6	6	East Timor (M) Indonesia (M) New Zealand (M) Papua New Guinea (M) Solomon Islands (M)
				New Caledonia(France) (M)
Australian Antarctic Territory (Australia)	3	3	3	Adélie Land(France) Queen Maud Land(Norway) Ross Dependency(New Zealand)
Austria	8	0	8	Czech Republic (L) Germany (L) Hungary (L) Italy (L) Liechtenstein (L) Slovakia (L) Slovenia (L) Switzerland (L)
Azerbaijan	5 (6)	3	6 (7)	Armenia (L) Georgia (L) Iran Russia Turkey (L) Turkmenistan (M)
				Nagorno-Karabakh (L)

Changes made(That I remember right now):

• Splitting the last column between Recognized Sovereign States and the the encompassing group Others
• Making the labels of countries controlling dependencies smaller
• Removing the distinction between nonmainland integral territories of countries, specifically
  • Turning Guadeloupe (An overseas region/department) into just France
  • Deleting Azores
• Reversing the numbers followed by numbers in brackets (eg. American Samoa"5 (3)"→"3(5)"
• Adding nonrecognized states to the "Others" section and including appropriated bracketed number
  • Italicizing Kosovo as a nonrecognized state

Remaining Issues + suggested solutions

• Territorial claims not considered, examples below, which may be able to be solved by explaining in the introduction that de facto situation is considered in these cases
  • Argentina would say they only border 5 countries, as the consider the Falkland Islands to be theirs
  • The Republic of China would claim it borders Afghanistan etc.
• France's French Southern and Antarctic Lands is split up. Maybe all the nonantarctic islands could be combined into one?
• Argentina and Chile consider their antarctic territories to simply be part of their territory, so in their opinion the British Antarctic Territory (the part outside their claims) borders Argentina and Chile, not their respective territories. Could be solved by saying in the introduction all Antarctic territories are treated separately.
• In some cases, if a country borders an unrecognized country, it may not border another, due to this. An example is that Albania above is listed to border Kosovo but not Serbia. It either borders one or the other, but saying only Kosovo is a large bias. I suggest adding Serbia to the list, keeping Kosovo, removing brackets (as Kosovo or not the number of bordering states would be the same) and explaining it in small text in the column which has the total number of bordering territories.

Above is my suggested change through the current "A"'s. I've listed changes I remember making, down to minor ones, and also issues that might come up and proposed solutions. All the changes/problems are relevant to the whole page, not just the above section. Any thoughts? Chipmunkdavis (talk) 09:49, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

One concern I have is that some of the rejiggering is venturing into OR. Most of the chart information was simply taken from the 2003 source, and then OR was essentially used to update the information to include Kosovo, etc. And once this chart is altered, it then has a flow-down effect, since it is essentially derived from List of countries and territories by land borders and List of countries by maritime boundaries, which themselves were simply drawn from the sources, especially with respect to the numbers that were included. Some of the biases inherent in the sources are thus reflected in the adopted chart. Are you working from a source, or just kind of going ad hoc? But anyway, as long as you're confirming anything substantive you're changing with sources, I don't see a problem, as long as the other two articles are also changed as well (eventually) to reflect what is here. Good Ol’factory ^(talk) 10:39, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

I'm fairly sure that I can back up all the above changes with sources. Much of it is simply a reflection of other wikipedia pages. If possible, could you be more specific as to which changes exactly are moving into OR? The changes I included were all ad hoc from various different areas, not just one source. Much of what I did was just to try and WP:NPOV it slightly. Lacking any of the 4 books used to reference this page, I'm afraid I'm slightly in the dark there, but I've managed to get the google versions for the three with IBN numbers provided. I'll give them a look through. In the meantime, if you could tell me which specific changes you think need sourcing (just take it from the list I made) then I can source them. I'd be happy to make the flowbacks, given time. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 10:58, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

Could only read 2 sources, but neither of those mention Kosovo at all. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 11:58, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, none of those listed do mention Kosovo, I have to say. It's entirely OR. I've had a look at your proposed changes in more detail, and I don't think there's anything specific that is of concern. I just wanted to note the issue, since I myself had ventured uncomfortably into OR with the Kosovo issue. I'm fine with what you have proposed. I agree that having a separate section for Antarctic territories could be helpful. And putting the italicised ones in their own section could help break up the length. Good Ol’factory ^(talk) 21:34, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

The problem with Kosovo permeated throughout the whole article. Edited, and I can't believe changing all that resulted in a net change of just -21 characters O.o Chipmunkdavis (talk) 13:22, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

References

Inaccurate title

It isn't a List of countries and territories by land and maritime borders, it is an alphabetical list with the number of borders listed. to be a list of countries by land and maritime borders, the order would have to be determined by the number of borders. The title should be changed. Anoldtreeok (talk) 07:57, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

Sorting the table

is not possible, the results are total gibberish! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Prino (talk • contribs) 11:20, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

Spratlys

Are the countries controlling one or a few of the Spratlys sharing a maritime border with each other? E.g. ROC's Itu Aba isn't far away from Vietnam's posessions around it. 218.250.143.16 (talk) 06:14, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

Netherlands Antilles

Since 10 October 2010, the Netherlands Antilles do not exist any more – they should be replaced by either Curaçao, Sint Maarten, or the Kingdom of the Netherlands. (The computer where I am currently working is to weak to handle this huge table, so I cannot do it myself.) --131.152.41.173 (talk) 14:02, 1 November 2011 (UTC)

Done! Regarding the maritime border between the Dominican Republic and the Dutch territories to the south, I couldn't tell how much of the border was with Aruba and how much was with Curacao. I included them both just in case, but someone should verify this if possible. --Lasunncty (talk) 12:03, 3 November 2011 (UTC)

That is correct, both do border the Dominican Republic (see [1]). Styath (talk) 23:52, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

Maritime border of the Netherlands (country)

The border of the Netherlands does not border to the one with Denmark as can be seen at this file. The Netherlands is colourd in light blue and Denmark is in Red. The EEZ of Germany (greyish black) is in between of the one of the Netherlands and Denmark. Dqfn13 (talk) 09:55, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

I'd like to see a source for the boundary information on that image first. I don't know what the sources for this article say either, though. Styath (talk) 23:45, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

The Dutch government website at [2] talks only about established maritime boundaries with Belgium, the UK and Germany, so indeed no Denmark. I'm therefore removing the Denmark-Netherlands links from the list. Styath (talk) 21:10, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress which affects this page. Please participate at Talk:Lists of countries and territories - Requested move and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RM bot 18:41, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

Nagorno-Karabakh

The table lists Azerbaijan as the only country bordering the Nagorno-Karabakh Republic. While the former Nagorno-Karabakh Autonomous Oblast is surrounded completely by Azerbaijan, the area claimed by the Nagorno-Karabakh Republic also borders Iran and Armenia. These should be added to the NKR's land borders. SiBr₄ (talk) 22:01, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

It also only had Nagorno-Karabakh on the Armenia entry. I've added the various entries. CMD (talk) 06:38, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

El Salvador and Honduras

In one place, the article says that El Salvador and Honduras only share a maritime border. In another place, it says that they share both land and maritime borders. Obviously, both can't be factually accurate. Gringo300 (talk) 07:37, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

 Done, thanks! They share a land border too. CMD (talk) 10:50, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

Afghanistan-India

This border segment is disputed, as Pakistan controls the region in question. An IP user removed India from Afghanistan's list way back in June 2011, and then another IP user removed Afghanistan from India's list just today. To maintain NPOV, I think it should be restored to both lists. Any thoughts? Are there any other similar situations involving other countries? --Lasunncty (talk) 00:53, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

There are several territorial disputes around the world, so we should handle them consistently and with a minimum of fuss. Our list should be based on actual / de facto borders, and then maybe add footnotes or caveats to explain which countries disagree.

There are many cases where "claims" are mutually contradictory, so we obviously can't just act as though one claim is right, building a list which privileges one claim over another for no good reason. Actual borders should be first priority. bobrayner (talk) 12:10, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

French overseas regions and territories

I really think french overseas regions and territories should be listed separately. Reason: they have their own borders and their own entry requirements. E.g. a visa for France isn't valid for Guadeloupe. This list lists equivalent territories of other countries separately and there is no reason why France should be an exception. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.246.78.124 (talk) 19:38, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

Island of Cyprus

There has been a lot of discussion at Talk:List of countries and territories by maritime boundaries and Talk:List of countries and territories by land borders recently, which applies to this list as well. (Actually, why do we have three lists?) I notice that someone added the UN Buffer Zone here, but if that is included, then Cyprus and Northern Cyprus have no border with each other. They both only border the Buffer Zone and Akrotiri and Dhekelia. --Lasunncty (talk) 23:35, 13 July 2016 (UTC)

Cambodia - Malaysia

I have removed this maritime border from the entries for both countries as I have been unable to find any evidence that it exists, either in the sources listed for this article or elsewhere online. Cambodia and Thailand have overlapping maritime claims, but Malaysia does not claim any of this disputed area. Vietnam's maritime border with both Cambodia is agreed by treaty and does not overlap with the area claimed by both Malaysia and Vietnam. Thryduulf (talk) 17:55, 24 November 2019 (UTC)

France and Papua New Guinea

On the section for France it says that they share a maritime border with Papua New Guinea. However the section for Papua New Guinea does not say they have a maritime border with France. Which is correct? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.60.188.94 (talk) 19:05, 2 December 2020 (UTC)

There is no border. I've removed it. CMD (talk) 01:29, 3 December 2020 (UTC)

Russia and Romania

The page says that Russia and Romania share a maritime border, but looking at maps of countries EECs, that doesn't seem to be the case. The Crimea's exclusive economic zone borders Romania, but while governed by Russia, Crimea is considered internationally to be part of Ukraine. Should it be removed?65.60.188.94 (talk) 02:58, 9 December 2020 (UTC)

Canary Islands

I'm wondering what at the criteria for including an overseas territory. For example the Canary Islands appear to share a maritime border with Morocco, but the Canary Islands does not appear as a territory of Spain. Clearly, of course, it is necessary to draw a line in the sand somewhere, as there are possibly many times more small territories, especially islands, than contiguous territories. Perhaps these are not included separately because they are contiguous with Spain, but this is not obvious. Thomasee73 (talk) 22:38, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

Islands are not listed separately. The entry for Spain included the note regarding Western Sahara because of the Canary Islands. CMD (talk) 22:58, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

Correct. The Canary Islands are an integral part of Spain, so the maritime border between the Canary Islands and the Moroccan coast should not be listed separately from the current explanation of the Spain-Morocco border. AuH2ORepublican (talk) 21:06, 7 July 2024 (UTC)