Wikipedia talk:Notability (people)

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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by SportingFlyer (talk | contribs) at 04:15, 3 May 2019 (→‎Proposal to make a slight change to WP:ARTIST: oppose). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

"WT:BIO" redirects here. For WikiProject Biography, see WT:WPBIO. For WikiProject Biology, see WT:BIOLOGY.

PORNBIO

SUPERSEDED BY RFC
removed per the RFC below. Beeblebrox (talk) 19:55, 24 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

This is still a recipe for conflict. Someone can meet all the criteria in this list without there being a single reliable independent secondary source about them. All subject-specific guidelines are merely indicia of the kind of person likely to meet WP:GNG, but n this case the tests are completely unconnected from any kind of reality-based sources. Guy (Help!) 00:20, 13 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Follow up question: why do we have an SNG for pornography at all? GMGtalk 00:21, 13 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
To create yet another walled garden within the encyclopedia, that's why. Most of the content falling under this amounts to nothing more than a directory of individuals who have won awards that 95 percent of the general public have never heard of. RadioKAOS / Talk to me, Billy / Transmissions 00:31, 13 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Applies to most SNGs, but especially this one. Guy (Help!) 00:35, 13 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
!Support MfD. Leviv ich 00:37, 13 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I mean, we don't really need MfD, since we're not really deleting anything. We could just remove it as obviously useless and see who exactly wants to make it their line in the sand to defend pornography as somehow special...other than the fact that Wikipedia is on the internet, which is 72% porn and 36% cat pictures. Then again, we don't have an SNG for cats either as far as I'm aware. GMGtalk 01:04, 13 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Oh yeah. !Support mf'ing deletion, then. Leviv ich 01:17, 13 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
It's not "obviously useless," it's just a SNG that may be a bit too overbroad. I'm not sure I've ever edited a topic on the subject, but I'm glad there's an SNG there to help me if something were to come up at AfD. SportingFlyer T·C 01:34, 13 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
...Just because an SNG for albino acupuncturists can help us simplify AfD by applying arbitrary rules without any critical analysis doesn't actually mean that we need an SNG on albino acupuncturists. They key there is that if you're applying any standard at AfD other than whether a well-sourced neutral encyclopedia article can be written based on the available sources, then you're applying the wrong standard. GMGtalk 01:59, 13 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
It's disingenuous to compare this to albino acupuncturists, though. I think I've only looked into one article which the SNG would be relevant for, but the elements here are different than WP:NACTOR, and WP:GNG has to be met anyways. I'd like to see an example the SNG completely diverges from WP:GNG before jumping to any broad conclusion. SportingFlyer T·C 09:41, 13 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I'd rather think of it as illustrative analytical alliteration rather than disingenuousness. The problem with "WP:GNG has to be met anyways" is that people fundamentally don't act that way in deletion debates, and you wind up in quasi-legal arguments such as the comment below by User:Hydronium Hydroxide about how sub-paragraph C(4) of SNG#1 modifies section 8 paragraph H of SNG#2. I'm sorry, but that winds up looking like an argument between people who have associates degrees in Wikipedia jargon, and is much more concerned about the interpretation of complex sets of rules for their own sake, and comparatively little substantive argument about whether a well-sourced neutral article can be written. Whether a well sourced neutral encyclopedia article can be written is WP:5P1, and if it fails that, then it don't belong here.
If we give any credence to complex sets of rules for their own sake, then the only thing NPORN actually does is restate ANYBIO and GNG for pornography without adding any additional substance:
  1. The person has received a well-known and significant award or honor for pornography
  2. The person has made a widely recognized contribution for pornography
  3. The person has received significant coverage in reliable sources for pornography
So then what is the point of having it when all is does is duplicate nearly word for word guidance already given elsewhere? GMGtalk 11:53, 13 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • PORNBIO expressly removed the "or has been nominated for such an award several times" part included in ANYBIO and PORNBIO restricts the awards to "well-known and significant industry award." Porn award ceremonies are abundant and nominations are given out prolifically. The ongoing dispute is which awards types confer notability. Applying ANYBIO without restrictions would be even more permissive than PORNBIO. • Gene93k (talk) 19:47, 13 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Except that ANYBIO applies to any bio. GMGtalk 19:50, 13 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Because the SNG limits what a "well-known and significant award or honor" or "widely recognised contribution" actually means for these types of biographies. Otherwise, Gene93k is right - you'd be more permissive, and notability analysis becomes even squishier. SportingFlyer T·C 20:05, 13 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Given the subject under discussion, I suggest we steer clear of imagery along the lines of squishier. EEng 21:37, 13 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Considering your propensity to add images to threads, I'm just going to assume you couldn't find a good clean squishy image quickly. SportingFlyer T·C 08:04, 14 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Uh oh, that sounds like a challenge. Lots of pornography at the Commons to choose from. Leviv ich 08:09, 14 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Except that ANYBIO applies to any bio. GMGtalk 20:15, 13 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • So you're saying that PORNBIO should defer to a more general statement? Are you arguing an actor who won multiple ensemble awards should qualify for an article under ANYBIO? SportingFlyer T·C 08:04, 14 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • If a person winning multiple ensemble awards received sustained in-depth coverage in reliable sources for doing so, then yes, they should have an article. If not, then they can't have an article because there's nothing to write one with. That's what determines whether an award is important for our purposes, not whether an it is mentioned in one of our special rules. I wouldn't personally argue to keep an article based on either NPORN or ANYBIO. I would argue based on the sources, and if I can't argue based on the sources, then I don't argue at all, and I go write an article that does have sources instead. But if we're going to have special rules because people who are engrossed in the organizational culture have an affinity for special rules, then we should at least get rid of the ones that don't actually add anything over our other special rules, and this one doesn't, because ANYBIO is both broader in scope and more inclusive in criteria. GMGtalk 11:21, 14 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think we should form a committee to do a comprehensive review of all available sources on each porn performer. EEng 02:47, 13 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Remove this section. I do not think any special criteria are needed. My very best wishes (talk) 03:11, 13 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

It includes 3 points:

  1. That does not help. Who knows what is a well-known and significant industry award? Why awards by that industry are a sign of notability? See next point.
  2. I think this can not be used as a criterion. Someone in these lists is actually an advertisement by this "industry", not a sign of notability.
  3. Yes, sure, but this is a general GNG criterion for any person. No need in anything special for pornography. My very best wishes (talk) 04:38, 14 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • I believe that removing NPORN wholesale would make AFDs more onerous. NPORN has five components:
  • The common Additional Criteria preamble indicates that the NPORN criteria are neither necessary nor sufficient, in other words meeting one or more provides no presumed notability.
  • The NPORN preamble limits scope. It means that one can reasonably argue that for items it covers that this is how the generic GNG / ANYBIO criteria should be interpreted.
  • NPORN#1 interprets/limits ANYBIO#1 and ENT#2
  • NPORN#2 interprets/limits ANYBIO#2 and ENT#3
  • NPORN#3 interprets/limits BASIC.
Non-presumptive SNGs are a Good Thing. Sure we could go from first principles every AFD, but SNGs and similar guides allow us to more easily skip the same debates. SNGs can also help with PRODs. Remove NPORN, and you're left with the less-defined set of criteria at ENT, ANYBIO, and BASIC. If an SNG's criteria need tweaking or certain awards need to be explicitly categorised as notable, noteworthy, or non-notable (yes please -- across all fields) then that should be done. Why don't we need an SNG on acupuncturists, albino or otherwise? Because we haven't had hundreds if not thousands of such bios that are candidates for deletion, and relatively few alternative medicine practitioners have a public profile (but if there were to be a medical practitioner (sub-)SNG that might not be a bad thing). ~Hydronium~Hydroxide~(Talk)~ 04:36, 13 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • A big problem with porn in Wikipedia is that reputable media tends to shun pornography while some consider it of general encyclopedic interest. The rationale behind PORNBIO was that credible recognition by peers or established critics might indicate notability. Unfortunately, without mainstream media or academic attention, too much of the remaining sources exist to promote the industry. There is no easy fix, but having PORNBIO notability claims insist on support from credible sources would be a good start. • Gene93k (talk) 11:51, 13 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'd support getting rid of it. PORNBIO creates the presumption that someone who has won some types of industry awards is notable. In practice it doesn't work like that and even winning some of the most high profile porn industry awards isn't usually enough to save a biography from deletion, unless there is evidence that the GNG is met as well. Given that the guideline should be changed. Porn doesn't get much in the way of mainstream press attention so winning porn awards is not likely to lead to suitable sources being available in itself. ANYBIO would still apply but it would require someone to show that a porn industry award is "well-known and significant" generally, not just within the porn industry. That's a higher standard to meet. Hut 8.5 21:10, 14 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • The first time I agree with user:Gene93k - "A big problem with porn in Wikipedia is that reputable media tends to shun pornography" - so, there will always be problems for erotic/porn articles to meets of WP:GNG. The problem does not concern only one group of people. For example - 99% of sportmens are known only locally, ~90% of sportmens do not meets of the WP:GNG because they are described only in the sports press. So, we can delete 90% of articles of sportmans? Nonsense. Please - some more rationality. I think, to avoid constantly arising conflicts about PORNBIO and AfDs, we need to specify which are "well-known and significant industry award". I also suggest that to modify the previous version of PORNBIO - restore nominations. It is often the case that there is a well known porn star with many years of experience, many (hundreds) movies, many (>10) nominations of awards and article has been deleted because must to be at least 1 really awards. This is absurd. I would also like to inform you that en.Wikipedia has the most irrational requirements for pornstars, the vast majority of deleted articles of pornstars in AfD, has many interwiki, so - these articles existed on many Wikipedias. Subtropical-man (✉ | en-2) 00:20, 15 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The only porn stars I can name are Stormy Daniels/Stephanie Clifford, Karen McDougal and Ron Jeremy. Can we craft a guideline around what they share in common? Legacypac (talk) 18:04, 15 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

All four have soft, voluptuous figures and big tits? EEng 21:00, 15 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Does the thing they share in common happen to be sustained in-depth coverage in reliable independent sources? GMGtalk 18:07, 15 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
They all do stuff Melania won't? Legacypac (talk) 23:59, 15 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
A perfect example of nonsense of current version of PORNBIO is Johnny Sins. In first AfD (2016) - the result was delete, in second AfD (2018) - the result was not keep, just "no consensus" for delete. He is almost cult in pornography industry, also well known as "bald" from Brazzers, popular even in memes outside the pornographic industry [1] and "he is consistently among the most popular porn searches[9][10][11]" He has 4 awards, incuding AVN Award (porn-oscars) - Favorite Male Porn Star (two times) and 33 nominations!!!!!!! Subscribers on new channel of YouTube (from 2017) is million, total views - 44 million, not counting the erotic movies by other productions, for example Brazzers. Several dozen million people know him by sight but due no clarification #1 of PORNBIO and because of that "reputable media tends to shun pornography" (= problem with GNG), the article is still threatened by absurdity of en.Wikipedia. Subtropical-man (✉ | en-2) 20:53, 15 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
It's not our job to fix problems with reputable media and it's certainly not our job to write articles on subject without reputable coverage, and certainly not or living persons. It doesn't matter even a little bit whether he has a cult following, how many people like his tweets, or how many memes he's in, because none of those things help us to write an encyclopedia article. The thing that allows us to write an article is in-depth coverage in reliable sources. That's not a problem; it's a feature. If people want to read about cult subjects that have not received mainstream coverage, then I'm sure there's a wikia for that, just like there is for everything else. GMGtalk 21:11, 15 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed. One of the first things I learned when I started on Wikipedia was that notability != fame. A WP:GNG-notable person needn't be famous, and famous person isn't necessarily notable. Too many people confuse those two things (witness the comments we get about YouTube views, Twitter followers, iTunes downloads, and similar dreck). If it were up to me, I'd raise the bar for inclusion of articles about biographies and bands way higher than it is now. That would eliminate a lot of this pop-culture cruft Wikipedia has now. But I know that's an unrealistic expectation. ~Anachronist (talk) 21:30, 15 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Johnny Sins meets the requirements of the PORNBIO (two notable awards) and even GNG (few sources outside the pornographic industry). The problem is that group of few (still the same) users pushing version that "Favorite Male Porn Star" (and each other award) of AVN Award (porn-oscars) not meets of #1 (well-known and significant industry award). This is absurd and patology. Using the method of Wikipedia:Meatpuppetry, this group of few (still the same) users win in each AfD about pornstar, almost always article is deleted. We have to end these manipulations and finish creating own standards. Therefore, corrections in PORNBIO are necessary. There must be clear criteria for pornstars. Subtropical-man (✉ | en-2) 21:32, 15 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • I do believe a correction is necessary, and that's to remove the thing entirely as utterly useless. An award doesn't mean you've received independent reliable coverage, and if it does, then you don't need to argue based on the award, because you can argue based on the independent reliable coverage. If you want to fix the fact that reliable sources don't cover the porn industry, then go start a media company and write about the porn industry in a way that has reliable journalistic integrity and systematic editorial oversight. We don't need to fix Wikipedia so that we can write poorly referenced articles on porn, because the purpose of Wikipedia is not to write about porn. The purpose of Wikipedia is to write about subjects that have received sustained in-depth coverage in reliable sources. If a subject hasn't received that coverage, then they can take their twitter followers and their memes and go elsewhere. The fact that there is a small dedicated fan base that wants to write about every trivial detail of a niche subject does not constitute a crisis on our part. See also every Wikia ever created that lists every trivial unsourced minutiae on everything that's ever been within half a mile of a popular video game. GMGtalk 23:44, 15 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • GreenMeansGo (GMG), sorry but the problem is the reliability of the occupational analyzes. At one time, encyclopedias had a small number of biographies, encyclopedia had articles about significant people in the world like Mikołaj Kopernik or Picasso. Now, Wikipedia describes local politicians, local sportmens, local military personnel with no contribution to history or local poets with 2 books. What is it supposed to be? These people only do their job, some people to race, others write poems, others play in porn movies. They have notoriety but none of them no matters to the world. Fame is not a synonym for the word of "notability". De facto, on Wikipedia ~99% of biographies should be removed, being famous and listed in the press should not be enough, these people have no significant contribution to humanity / world. For now, there are no changes for resolve the problem. Subtropical-man (✉ | en-2) 02:02, 16 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Notability is not a measure of whether an article should be written. Notability is a measure of whether an article can be written. The presumption is that every neutral well sourced article that can be written should be written. It is not a measure of importance, or fame, or contribution to humanity or history; it is a measure of whether we can write an article based on coverage in reliable sources. We have articles on people who are probably objectively terrible people and contribute nothing to anything, but we have them because there are reliable sources available sufficient to write an article with. We lack articles on people, especially in antiquity, who may have made lasting impactful contributions to humanity, because we have no reliable sources with which to write an article. Our job is not to fix that; our job is only to record it. GMGtalk 02:21, 16 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • You just showed the moral, proving that current standards are hopeless and need to be changed. Fame is not a synonym for the word of "notability" but also: existed any reliable sources is not a synonym for the word of "notability". Your opinion is based on one wrong theory: existed reliable sources = article can be written and your next text of "It is not a measure of importance, or fame, or contribution to humanity or history" - sorry, Wikipedia is encyclopedia, not garbage or newspapers looking for publicity. Subtropical-man (✉ | en-2) 13:01, 16 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • How many articles are in Encyclopædia Britannica? 32,640 pages!, en.Wikipedia has 5,808,409 articles, so - Encyclopædia Britannica is just 0,56% of en.Wikipedia. How many sportmens are in Encyclopædia Britannica? How many politics are in Encyclopædia Britannica? Sorry, but biographies is marginal part of the Encyclopædia Britannica. Subtropical-man (✉ | en-2) 01:29, 16 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Seems like a good RfC idea, perhaps for WP:VPPOL, to avoid attracting mostly a bloc vote. I agree that the SNGs should not be making up fake "anti-GNG" criteria. Their purpose is helping editors decided whether the topic they want to write about is likely to pass GNG and why (or, what kinds of sourcing to find and facts to source to keep an article that already exists but is attracting claims of not being notable enough to keep). I also tend to think we do not need a page like this specifically for porn stars, but we don't MfD guidelines (see WP:P&G, which specifically says so). Rather, the community may decide to mark them {{Historical}} or {{Rejected}}. In this case, it might be kept but made to stop contradicting the site-wide main notability guideline (which isn't okay, per WP:CONLEVEL policy – something definitely has to change about this).  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  04:01, 22 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Have never voted to keep a porn article but I dont see the need to dump the sng as it is normally considered subservient to GNG at AFD in practice, and is at least a benchmark to advise editors against creating the most unnotable of porn bio articles, im my view Atlantic306 (talk) 20:06, 22 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Having run a couple of weeks and attracted a fair bit of discussion, and seemingly overall support, reckon it's time to flip this into a bona fide RfC? Or to those here feel there is sufficient consensus in the threaded discussion to remove the text without the formality? GMGtalk 20:14, 22 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Needs an RFC, there is opposition Atlantic306 (talk) 20:48, 22 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Request for comment regarding PORNBIO

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

Survey regarding PORNBIO

  • Support removal we have WP:ENT we don't have seperate guidelines on stage actors, voice actors, soap actors etc. Legacypac (talk) 20:32, 22 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support removal (I've not commented in this discussion yet). Past AfD discussions on adult actors have generally shown that even "significant awards" do not correlate to the subjects meeting WP:BASIC, to which PORNBIO is a supplement. We have WP:ENT and this is sufficient. --K.e.coffman (talk) 21:54, 22 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support as proposer. PORNBIO is mostly redundant to ANYBIO and GNG as I indicated in the threaded discussion above. There is no obvious reason that I see to treat pornographic biographies especially different than others, or at least not any different than other biographies of entertainers. There is no indication that I see, and no real argument above that the criteria is likely to correspond to coverage in reliable sources, but instead seems fairly arbitrarily chosen for a niche subject for no apparent reason in particular, for either standards or scope. Beyond that, we should be mindful to push back against CREEP by actively removing unhelpful guidance, since an abundance of such guidance only helps to complicate discussion, and deter new editors with unnecessarily complex sets of rules and jargon. GMGtalk 22:11, 22 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose as it at least deters new pornbios on the more unnotable subjects Atlantic306 (talk) 22:23, 22 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support – Simpler is better. The adult entertainment industry may have been ignored by reliable sources when this SNG was created in 2006, but today, there doesn't seem to be any lack of reliable sources that cover this industry. I see no real arguments in the discussion for why a separate SNG is needed, and why these articles aren't adequately addressed by GNG, ANYBIO, and ENT. Giving editors a fourth thing to consider (PORNBIO) is too complicated and apparently unnecessary; ENT is adequate as an SNG. Leviv ich 22:33, 22 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose - "A big problem with porn in Wikipedia is that reputable media tends to shun pornography", there are several sections in Notability (people), due to this problem PORNBIO should be remain. Subtropical-man (✉ | en-2) 22:55, 22 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Please don't take my statement of the problem as an endorsement of keeping PORNBIO the way it is. I'm undecided about dumping PORNBIO. That said, Wikipedia needs to be based on reliable sources, and excusing pornography from that is bad policy. • Gene93k (talk) 17:37, 24 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support removal I have always thought that this privileged porn bios as a subset of entertainers, and was a weird niche SNG. They should have to meet GNG/ENT, if they don't we shouldn't have an article on them. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 00:58, 24 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support removal. This has led to endless drama and misunderstanding, proposing that frankly terrible sources be treated as reliable because no actually reliable sources exist. Guy (Help!) 01:01, 24 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - I generally trust participants in a project to be more knowledgeable about which subjects falling under that project are truly notable, and which sources provide reliable information about subjects in that area. I would like to think that if the guidelines developed by such a project were problematic, then they could be fixed locally rather than being eliminated. bd2412 T 02:24, 24 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose it requires improvement not removal, indeed I think removal would actually make things worse as awards are so prolific in the porn industry there needs to be some guide about which ones are significant and which ones aren't - something that PORNBIO is best placed to do. I know that there are plenty of people who have a problem with biographies of porn stars being in Wikipedia at all, but Wikipedia is a neutral encyclopaedia so recommendations based on personal feelings regarding the subject matter must be ignored. Thryduulf (talk) 02:30, 24 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose removal of SNG and apply it more rigorously. Another editor has pointed out Wikipedia:WikiProject Pornography/Deletion that much progress is being made in deleting undesirable articles using the SNG, although there is more to be done. Xxanthippe (talk) 02:49, 24 February 2019 (UTC).[reply]
    Really? Because it seems much more likely to be used to argue for keeping flagrant BLP violations based on an award that no one has ever heard of or cared about other than fanboys on the internet. GMGtalk 13:06, 24 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
It looks as if that one is heading for deletion as a result of applying the SNG strictly. Xxanthippe (talk) 03:39, 25 February 2019 (UTC).[reply]
The only ones citing this SNG are the ones !voting to keep the article. GMGtalk 22:25, 25 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per GMG, this can be adequately covered by other guidelines. -- Tavix (talk) 15:47, 24 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support removal but we do need to place a grandfathering clause to cover existing articles for a period of about 2 years. The porn industry has little external, independent coverage and thus the criteria for this here are far too dependent to show that WP:V can ultimately be met. --Masem (t) 17:52, 24 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • What would be the point of a grandfathering clause? We have a current problem with articles that don't conform to WP:BLP, so surely any fix to this problem should be implemented immediately. Phil Bridger (talk) 18:02, 24 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Any porn actor meeting one of the current PORNBIO criteria should mean there's a source - maybe not the best or an independent source - to show that criteria is met. That's not an outright failure of BLP, so there's no reason to rush to remove these articles - this also creates a fait accompli problem if someone mass noms them for deletion. If there are true BLP violation articles that can't be edited away easily, then do that. --Masem (t) 18:06, 24 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • You are here, as below, concentrating on the wrong aspect of the sources. If the source is non-independent then that is not necessarily a BLP failure, put if the source is unreliable, which many of those used in articles about porn actors are, that definitely does fail WP:BLP. Phil Bridger (talk) 18:21, 24 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • What I am saying is that if we are removing PORNBIO, then there are going to be numerous pages created/developed in good faith on the basis that PORNBIO was correct, so we should not be rushing to delete them unless they are an outright BLP violation. To me, this would fully unsourced articles. Articles with unreliable sources but against uncontestable claims are not BLP violations, and should be allowed to be kept and a year or two under grandfathering to see if they can be improved beyond the unreliable sources. If they can't be, then after this grandfathering period, they are fair game for AFD. --Masem (t) 19:58, 24 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Well, then, we disagree, but Wikipedia, and the rest of the world, would be a pretty boring place if we all agreed about everything. Phil Bridger (talk) 20:02, 24 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support removal the veiled attempts at censorship in this are fly in the face of existing policy. Regular AFDs work for all other actor articles there is no reason they can't work for porn actors as well. MarnetteD|Talk 17:57, 24 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • a stroll through AfDs linked from Wikipedia:WikiProject Pornography/Deletion confirms for me that PORNBIO needs to go. It is being used to argue keep on pages that fail WP:ENT. Therefore it is (or is being argued to be) more permissive then our main guideline. Legacypac (talk) 17:58, 24 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose removal per Chesterton's fence. I have commented on thousands of AfD discussions, but make a point to avoid PORNBIO ones. There is no good way to use the WP:ENT criteria to assess porn actors - determining whether actors have "significant roles" is nearly impossible at AFD, and determining if they have a "large fan base" is equally difficult. Using industry awards is a proxy for this metric that can be adjudicated with much less effort. If the PORNBIO standards often allow for articles that violate the WP:BLP policy or WP:V, they should be changed.
    Many commenters want to remove this because they feel SNGs are generally bad, or there are too many porn bios. I disagree fully. I support having more SNGs and always oppose the theory that we should have no rules but GNG to assess notability. I generally oppose deletionist arguments on policy, particularly when they are based on WP:IDONTLIKEIT. Furthermore, it's unclear whether this would decrease the number of articles; if there is enough bureaucracy at AFD, it may increase the article count through friction. power~enwiki (π, ν) 18:23, 24 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support removal. Its purpose has never been more than that of protecting a walled garden of articles on topics that fail any sane notability criteria. Many of its claims (of people being "notable" if they earned this or that type of industry award or played this or that type of role) are simply, factually untrue – let's not forget that a SNG cannot and must not arbitrarily decide what is or isn't notable, but must make testable and falsifiable generalizations about what types of topics typically fulfill our actual, general notability criteria, the ones defined in GNG. If ths SNG don't match those, then the SNG is simply invalid. We should have got rid of it long ago. Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:17, 24 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support removal. Given that the very nature of the subject poses BLP issues, sourcing must be stricter (and thus the notability bar higher) than the typical biography. Tolerating poor sourcing also invites spam, covert advertising, the misuse of Wikipedia for promotional purposes and gaming of sourcing requirements, just like we have with corporations and a subset of living people. I'm not familiar with how often porn actors/actresses are spammed, but I wouldn't be that surprised if they were. MER-C 22:00, 24 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose removal I strongly believe this should be kept. We already delete most pornography-related articles at AfD for not passing this SNG, and a clear reading of the SNG clarifies how WP:ENT should be applied by strongly limiting the notability criteria. The industry has enough awards I could make a clear keep argument at AfD under WP:ENT for an award currently limited by WP:PORNBIO. Also, as noted above, anyone meeting WP:PORNBIO should meet the WP:GNG, and nothing has been demonstrated here showing there's a problem in that regard. SportingFlyer T·C 05:20, 25 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose removal We have guidelines such as WP:SPORTSPERSON, WP:ARTIST and WP:CRIMINAL because "the one size fits all" WP:BASIC doesn't always work in specialised area. I don't see WP:PORNBIO as different to any of the other more specific guidelines. That said, I think it needs to be more specific than it is at present. For example "well-known and significant industry award" should be defined. --John B123 (talk) 22:12, 25 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. Some of these people are being watched by millions per week online, but because of what they do, the sources that would qualify as WP:RS, only cover them sporadically, and nowhere near in proportion to their inherent notability and engagement by the public. WP:PORNBIO reflects reality. This proposal is a depreciated version of reality. Britishfinance (talk) 20:47, 3 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • support passing PORNBIO is no longer a successful argument at afd. Therefore the sng is depreciated. These are mostly BLPs and that level of sourcing is necessary.Spartaz Humbug! 23:06, 7 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    Some administrators such as yourself have dismissed it for years, while others follow it since it is the current rules. You recently nominated various porn actor articles for deletion and Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Seymore_Butts ended with keep because of the porn subject specific guideline. So yes, it is a successful argument at AFD. Dream Focus 00:19, 8 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Yes PORNBIO was cited by some voters but others noted he passes WP:ANYBIO amd WP:GNG because, as I noted, Butts is one of the two most famous male porn actors out there. You can debate which votes were more important but Mr Butts does not need PORNBIO to have a page. Legacypac (talk) 01:14, 8 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I think Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Mia_Malkova_(3rd_nomination) is a better example of pornbio being the reason it was kept. There are some AFDS where pornbio is ignored and other times its the reason something is kept. Horrible that rules don't get enforced consistently. I'm in favor of eliminating this subject specific guideline of course, but as long as its there it should be followed. Dream Focus 15:30, 8 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support elimination of this subject specific guideline. This is an encyclopedia not a porn catalog. I believe the rules should be followed, and if you disagree with them discuss it here and change them in a proper manner. If for some reason the rule is kept, then it should be followed. Dream Focus 23:59, 7 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. There has just been at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Casey Calvert (actress) another article about a porn actor kept on the basis of passing WP:PORNBIO (by virtue of receiving XRCO "Unsung siren awards", which pretty clearly states unnotability in its very title) that doesn't contain any reliable sources that would get it through WP:BLP. The WP:PORNBIO guideline, or any other guideline, should not be used to override fundamental policy in this way, but it is clearly happening in this case, so it would be best to get rid of the guideline. I can only surmise, by the way that WP:BLP is routinely ignored in such discussions, that porn actors are not considered to be real living people. Phil Bridger (talk) 21:48, 9 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support removal There's no reason for this to be separate from WP:NACTOR. Natureium (talk) 02:07, 11 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support removal. For the most part, SNGs are meant to clarify the GNG, but what I've seen from AfDs is that subjects that pass PORNBIO often fail NACTOR/GNG. SNG should only be allowed to supplant the GNG (e.g. WP:ACADEMIC) under the highest scrutiny. I don't want to practice knee-jerk subject discrimination here, but ultimately it makes sense if we think encyclopedic = long-term significance; we read papers from hundreds years ago, but who even remembers a porno from a decade ago? (And of course the ones that do get remembered are surely covered in reliable sources, so the GNG/NACTOR is perfectly sufficient.) -- King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 02:45, 11 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose removal - Such guidance is necessary to allow reasonable encyclopedic coverage of individuals whose trade is stigmatized by society (which means there is less coverage of it in traditional media and that many editors distaste of it will bleed into their opinions). WP:P*/D shows that pornography deletionism is quite healthy without eliminating a helpful guideline that saves a few borderline cases; Better to keep a few too many than to throw them all away. — Godsy (TALKCONT) 03:24, 11 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support removal - With all the promotional industry awards, it is far easier for someone to become "encyclopedic" by being involved in the porn industry than by being an academic, a journalist, a CTO, a CFO... This change could be applied retroactively to profit. No need for en.wp to continue promoting the industry. SashiRolls t · c 14:30, 11 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    We're not here to right great wrongs. People don't get Wikipedia articles if their work is valuable, but if their work is notable. (No comment on the relative value of work done by pornographic actors vs. CTOs.) — Bilorv (he/him) (talk) 14:18, 13 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I found this recent article interesting concerning WikiPorn's cultural footprint. Catalina Cruz has articles on both fr.wp & en.wp; the WMF's former CTO (Victoria Coleman) is on neither. As far as writing straight dung goes, I suppose Miller v. California did establish the obscenity test as being based on "serious literary, artistic, political, or scientific value", rather than industry-primped notability. SashiRolls t · c 20:52, 13 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support removal Perhaps we can identify what are actually the legitimate highest awards in the industry that are not merely promotional and limit consideration to that, but if there are not substantive sources about the individuals besides "X won this fancy award", i.e. the GNG, there should not be an article about them regardless. Reywas92Talk 18:58, 11 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support removal articles about subjects which do, in theory, meet PORNBIO are frequently deleted at AfD anyway when there is no evidence of passing the GNG. The fact that meeting PORNBIO does not create a likelihood of the subject meeting the GNG means it's not an effective notability guideline. The problem is than porn doesn't get much coverage in mainstream media and industry media sources aren't sufficient. Hut 8.5 21:45, 11 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support removal per pre-RFC initial discussion statement by JzG/Guy ~ ToBeFree (talk) 13:21, 12 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support removal, WP:ENT + WP:GNG should be adequate. PORNBIO seem to be too divergent from our other bio standards to keep, mostly due to the awards issue, which seems to be intractable. Kaldari (talk) 16:24, 12 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support removal due to being too narrow (at least, in my opinion) to be a good notability guideline. There's also the plenty-mentioned "keeping articles as they pass PORNBIO but they don't pass GNG", mainly due to the awards clause in the former, which also draws my disapproval. Sure, trying to rewrite it is an option, but right now I see too many flaws for a rewrite to do much. Kirbanzo (userpage - talk - contribs) 21:44, 12 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose removal - per power~enwiki. MrClog (talk) 23:22, 12 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support removal - per power-enwiki and GMG. Ealdgyth - Talk 14:33, 13 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support removal. PORNBIO has 3 points. Point 1 is pointless without an accompanying list of awards that are deemed (following research) significant (and leading to coverage). Point 2 (groundbreaking, iconic, unique, trend - with the exception of HoF perhaps) - is impossible to assess without evaluating sources as to whether a certain act is trendy/unique/iconic or merely a minor variation on some other prior act - it has us evaluating coverage in any event. Point 3 (" featured multiple times in notable mainstream media.) is WP:SIGCOV which doesn't need a SNG. The current SNG, therefore, is pointless as it is either undefined (significant award) or the existing SIGCOV. Icewhiz (talk) 15:22, 13 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose removal but word much more strongly & restrictively. I have the same goal as those wanting to remove it, but think removing this is going in the wrong direction. . The awards issue can be dealt with by a list of what counts--a short list. The GNG does not work very well in this field--it's much too permissive. DGG ( talk ) 19:38, 13 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    @DGG: the current SNG, as worded, does not override WP:BASIC - you would need to work that in as well, not just tighten.Icewhiz (talk) 19:44, 13 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    agreed. The status of this and most sngs is ambiguous. Each one should decide whch option to follow:, just a guide, giving a presumption of notability , giving a presumption of non-notability, restricting the GNG, or expanding it. The amiguity heeleads to erratic decisions at AfD. DGG ( talk ) 20:52, 13 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    @DGG: I'm a little confused by your !vote. An SNG by its very nature is more permissive than GNG; it allows subjects that fail GNG to be considered notable. If those subjects passed GNG, we wouldn't need the supplementary guideline. Are you proposing that we ignore GNG for pornographic actors? How else would we make an SNG more restrictive than the general guideline? Vanamonde (Talk) 06:49, 19 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Not so. We can define a SNG however we choose: as an alternative, as a replacement, as a restriction, as a liberalization. The current way, of defining it as a presumption is Imo essentially meaningless, because it leads to a debate at every individual AfD about what the erelevant meaning should be. Remember, we make the rules, and what ever notability guideline we make by consensus can have whatever form and applicability we choose. DGG ( talk ) 07:34, 19 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support removal - This is a ridiculous low bar for some of the least encyclopedic, worst-written fluff bios on Wikipedia. Treat pornstars like all other movie actors — if they break through into popular culture, with requisite substantial coverage in reliable sources, by all means cover them. But the vapid pseudobios created by hobbyists because Trixie Shagsmore won the 2016 American Humper Award for the best threesome in a Volkswagen, etc. should be absolutely shitcanned as a low bar Special Notability Guideline. Deprecate — with fire. Carrite (talk) 03:38, 16 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support removal No problem with conventionally "unencyclopedic" topics, but I expect them to have significant coverage beyond trade press and niche websites. No problem if a better vetted SNG is re-added later. And yes, porn is probably not the only subject with this problem.—Bagumba (talk) 10:37, 16 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support removal. I think we need to keep in mind the purpose of SNGs in general. As I see it, a supplementary guideline exists because there are sets of topics that "should" be notable (by which I mean editors would broadly agree that they need to be covered by a good encyclopedia) but would not normally meet GNG, or cannot be shown to meet GNG. Scholars are a good example; politicians in countries outside the anglosphere are another. We have had something of a proliferation of SNGs, particularly with respect to biographies, which has led to a corresponding proliferation of low-grade biographies of individuals with no lasting impact. PORNBIO is a perfect example of this. Pornographic actors in general are nowhere near significant enough in the larger scheme of things that we need to lower the bar for notability for them with respect to either actors or biographies in general. Vanamonde (Talk) 06:46, 19 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support removal The purpose of SNGs as I see it is to allow editors to quickly determine which topics are highly likely to meet the GNG if a more in-depth search was completed. State or provincial legislator? Check. Olympic athlete? Check. The problem with PORNBIO is that a very large percentage of performers who pass it nominally will fail GNG upon closer examination. The bottom line is that winning a porn industry insider backscratching award is simply not a reliable indicator of genuine notability. This does not mean that all porn stars are non-notable but far too many of them are non-notable upon closer examination. They should be held to the same standards as other entertainers. The argument that I often hear is that the "mainstream media" discriminates against porn stars. Perhaps. But that is a gripe, valid or not, against the sources that we recognize as reliable, not against Wikipedia itself. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 07:11, 19 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support removal I believe GNG is more than sufficient. -- Dolotta (talk) 19:10, 20 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support removal Redundant with GNG. -BRAINULATOR9 (TALK) 16:58, 21 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose removal - We NEED a guideline here, and this one can always be revised. While there are a few editors who are enthusiasts in the subject area, from what I've seen the more serious problem is the widespread bias against the subject. Any porn-related AFD get spammed with garbage 'delete' votes even when there are hundreds of sources and the subject would blatantly pass the GNG in any other genre. We shouldn't be including a bio just because it mentions porn, but we sure-as-hell shouldn't be deleting any bio just because it mentions porn. Alsee (talk) 11:50, 23 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support removal As a misanthrope, I always want to stop "a few editors who are enthusiasts in the subject area". We, the community, are fed up with your fandom. If you wanted to keep articles about your shameful hobby, you should have done more to restrain the random editors who contributed too much to this ill pursuit. Chris Troutman (talk) 14:15, 24 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion regarding PORNBIO

  • I've taken the liberty of formatting this as an RfC above the point where Legacypac and K.e.coffman began casting bolded !votes. If either of you take issue with this feel free to move your comments to the threaded discussion above or below. GMGtalk 22:05, 22 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Good. Thanks Legacypac (talk) 22:08, 22 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • One point that often seems to be forgotten in deletion discussions about porn actors is that all pages are subject to WP:BLP, by which all content about living people needs to be reliably sourced, whatever notability guidelines might suggest. All porn industry web sites that I have seen routinely publish fantasy made-up "biographies" of porn actors, so they are not reliable and can't be the basis of an article about a living porn actor. There seems to be an assumption by some editors that people somehow lose their humanity if they are filmed taking part in sexual activity, so they lose the protection that every other living person gets. Phil Bridger (talk) 12:34, 24 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    • Its not so much a question about sourcing but the reliability and independence of that sourcing. What's been identified is that there is very little coverage of the porn industry outside of the works that drive the porn industry, meaning there's conflicts of internet, etc, and thus we're lacking independent coverage of that. This is what happened in the mixed-martial arts area a few years ago - coverage outside of MMA-organized periodicals was rare. We need that independence for notability. --Masem (t) 17:51, 24 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • My opinion at this time, is to reduce this to the level of WP:ESSAY. While I am of the opinion the the notability criteria of musicians is to lax (a separate subject I know), it can be said in some cases that having a notability essay or guideline about a certain subject, which have consensus from experts within that field of editing, can serve as a filter to ensure that only the truly notable are allowed to have an article on Wikipedia. We have WP:NOTPAPER, but we also have WP:GNG. What constitutes as a notable award within the field of pornography? What is the Oscar or BAFA of porn? If ENT becomes the default, what constitutes "Has had significant roles in multiple notable films, television shows, stage performances, or other productions." If taken strictly, each of the "multiple notable" productions would have to pass GNG in order to provide a bar, if taken loosely, an actor/actress who have (say a dozen) multiple IMDB listings as "significant roles" now can warrant an article. Should Entertainers, whether pornographic or not, have the one and notable rule like WP:NBASE has; meaning one game in a "major league" grants notability?--RightCowLeftCoast (Moo) 18:27, 24 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Before I give my opinion I would like to understand ... why sports news sites satisfy WP: GNG for sportmans articles, music sites satisfy WP: GNG for musicians, (include independent musicians) but adult video news sites does not satisfy WP: GNG for pornographic artists? I am afraid that the exclusion of WP: PORNBIO will result in a mass deletion of articles. Another question, rankings on sites like pornhub or followers on social networks might be considered?Guilherme Burn (talk) 23:23, 24 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Porn news sites that are RS are fine. No one said they are not. Sites and "awards" that are strictly promotional are not OK. Social media follower counts are often manipulated as it takes just a few days and a few bucks to get millions of views and followers. While views and followers are a possible indicator of notability, we need good RS still. Legacypac (talk) 23:36, 24 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • WikiProject Pornography provides useful guidance about the reliability of porn news sources. It specifically cautions about Adult Video News that its articles are often repackaged press releases. That appears to apply to XBiz as well. The porn trade press often crosses the line between covering the industry and promoting the industry. Legacypac's assessment of social media is also correct. Porn promotion floods the Internet. Promotional sources are unacceptable in verifying facts or establishing notability. • Gene93k (talk) 02:28, 25 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Guilherme Burn: That is a fair question. I contribute to American sports bios that have coverage in mainstream newspapers, but there are plenty of other sports that seem to justify their notability from respective sport specific sites.—Bagumba (talk) 10:16, 16 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • WP:PORNBIO should be kept separated from WP:ENT. I think pornography related topics should have their own set of guidelines for notability. However, there are huge conflicts with WP:GNG, especially with the sources. Therefore I propose amendments to PORNBIO. Probably participants of WP:PORN will help. THE NEW ImmortalWizard(chat) 12:46, 25 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

WP:PORNBIO redirect

Currently WP:PORNBIO is very widely linked. If this proposal succeeds in deprecating the SNG, then I suggest copying the content to Wikipedia:Notability (pornographic actors) and marking it historical. I think this is the best solution, as:

  1. We can't just delete the redirect.
  2. Redirecting to the top of WP:BIO is not helpful (especially given that many historical AfDs have cited it as policy rationale).
  3. We don't want to keep a dead section around in WP:BIO indefinitely.

Thoughts? -- King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 04:08, 24 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Permalink to this discussion once closed with a statement saying it was depreciated (presumably that is the only reason to retarget the redirect)? Legacypac (talk) 04:16, 24 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Since I do not see a consensus here yet I'm leaving this section open. I'm going to remove the section from the policy as that was the consensus reached above, but the redirects are another matter. RFD may be a better venue to decide this. Beeblebrox (talk) 19:52, 24 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support proposal to copy the content of the former SNG to the redirect and marking it historical, along with a permalink to the RfC. Leviv ich 20:30, 24 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Yes Levivich's solution is even better. Legacypac (talk) 21:01, 24 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed. -- King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 00:58, 25 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Levivich's proposal. Since Beeblebrox deleted the SNG completely and since we haven't figured out what to do with the redirect yet, I added a note about its deprecation on the main page (Wikipedia:Notability (people)). I don't intend for it to be permanent, but I do think it's helpful in the interim. SportingFlyer T·C 07:29, 25 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Notification of Discussion - Canadian judges

All -- there is a discussion at Wikipedia talk:Canadian Wikipedians' notice board about the application of Wikipedia:Notability (people) (specifically WP:JUDGE) and its possible application to trial judges in Canada. You are invited to participate. I am involved in the discussion.--Mr Serjeant Buzfuz (talk) 12:33, 26 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Priests

I have lately come across a lot of short articles on Anglican priests indicating that they were Dean of some diocese or other. Examples would be John Hay (priest), who was "Dean of Raphoe from 2003 to 2013", and Peter Wall (priest), who is Dean of Niagara, who I nominated for deletion. I am struggling to find a basis for notability for priests at the deanery level, and it seems like a lot of these are being made. bd2412 T 00:55, 6 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  • The guidance at Common Outcomes is at WP:CLERGY. The bishops of major denominations, including Catholic and Anglican Communion bishops, are typically found to be notable. Parish priests and local pastors need to show good third-party coverage. As for your examples, John Hay has one good reference, falling short of WP:BASIC. Peter Wall looks like a borderline CSD#A7 to me. • Gene93k (talk) 01:46, 6 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • I agree with your assessment, but note that a large number of articles of this sort are now being created, so something will need to be done at a higher level to address this problem. bd2412 T 02:19, 6 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Proposal to make a slight change to WP:ARTIST

  • WP:ARTIST says that an artist is notable if "The person's work (or works) has: (a) become a significant monument, (b) been a substantial part of a significant exhibition, (c) won significant critical attention, or (d) been represented within the permanent collections of several notable galleries or museums."
I'd like to propose a slight clarification of this, to change "several notable galleries or museums" to "two or more notable galleries or museums". This is the way the word "several" has been interpreted at AfD, and is also better than the dictionary definition over at the OED:"More than two but not many." --- ThatMontrealIP (talk) 18:48, 21 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Agree, makes it simpler and straightforward Atlantic306 (talk) 19:46, 21 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • This seems reasonable. signed, Rosguill talk 23:46, 25 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • I don't necessarily think this is wrong but I would caution from the GNG that we have resisted the idea of quantifying how many sources are appropriate for the GNG, because that can be gamed. If this is added, I would add a footnote caveat that the number is meant as a guiding principle, and there are IAR-type exemptions to that depending the galleries/museum. EG an artist that gets their work into the Louvre may be notable from that alone. --Masem (t) 00:25, 26 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • WP:ARTIST says that an artist is "likely to be notable" in such a case. As such, I would just ask: if someone has their work in two notable galleries (or museums) does that mean, in a large majority of cases, that they will have been the subject of in-depth coverage in reliable independent sources? If so, a change may make sense to specify. We shouldn't be keeping anything based just on that criterion, though, if it doesn't translate to coverage of the artist, of course, but I take that as presumed here. — Rhododendrites talk \\ 00:31, 26 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I'll try and stay out of this as much as possible, as I initiated the discussion, but I think the inclusion in museum collections, with or without SIGCOV, tends to reinforce point a) of WP:ARTIST: "The person is regarded as an important figure or is widely cited by peers or successors.", as the selection for permanent collections is considered to be very serious business within the art world. For one, you may have to take care of whatever you selected to add to the collection... for the next several centuries! SIGCOV does usually come with people on that level, but not always. ThatMontrealIP (talk) 00:41, 26 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • I share Masem's concern that too strict a quantification may be too easily gamed. Two museums at the level of the Smithsonian or MoMA would certainly be enough for me to argue for a keep. But there are a lot of lesser but notable museums that I would not find so convincing. —David Eppstein (talk) 03:08, 3 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • "lesser but notable museums" How would you determine which museum was greater or lesser? Bus stop (talk) 03:24, 3 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose I think it's a fine idea but I don't think it's clear enough on which museums qualify, book reviews are mush simpler because you can put them up on WP:GNG grounds. SportingFlyer T·C 04:15, 3 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

WP:NMODEL

The criteria don't mention modeling work at all as contributing to notability. There's an AfD for Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Daniella van Graas where we're discussing whether seven fashion magazine covers and being for a period the 'face' of a major skincare brand raises a model to notability; it seems like it should at least be approaching notability. I'm wondering if we need to add something to the criteria here that specifically covers models? Pinging RebeccaGreenTrillfendiLubbad85 --valereee (talk) 15:34, 26 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Valereee: The community just got rid of a Subject-specific Notability Guideline (SNG) for pornstars. I don't think it's feasible to create a presumption of notability for models. The community, generally, has turned against SNGs and support for such has been viewed as ILIKEIT. There's more traction in getting an active WikiProject to create an internal guideline (like WP:MILPEOPLE) and then bring it here. Chris Troutman (talk) 15:43, 26 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I think she is notable. We will need to work harder to find sources. I agree that modeling adds to her notability just as her covers, and movie work do. Lubbad85 (☎) 17:19, 26 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  • The last thing we need is more SNGs judging importance as if importance has anything to do with notability. If the best available on this person is a link to the most passing of mentions in an unrelated news story, and two links to some website of dubious reliability, then there is nothing to write and article with, and it should be deleted. It doesn't matter if she walked on the moon, cured cancer, and killed Hitler. If you can't scrape together even a single decent source, then she ain't notable. GMGtalk 17:26, 26 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

What it comes down to is appearance does not = notability. People don't seem to understand that. If I appeared as an extra in Iron Man 3, that doesn't make me notable. Notability comes from:

  1. "Significant coverage" addresses the topic directly and in detail, so that no original research is needed to extract the content. Significant coverage is more than a trivial mention, but it does not need to be the main topic of the source material.
  2. "Reliable" means that sources need editorial integrity to allow verifiable evaluation of notability

A model can walk in a Prada show, that doesn't make her notable just because Prada is a prestigious brand. If a fashion magazine or newspaper details that... then yes it becomes notable. This is an example. Because then they give more information about other work they did and their background. It's not just "model walked for Prada" and a picture of it. That's unacceptable. This is an encyclopedia. Trillfendi (talk) 18:22, 26 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

GreenMeansGo the problem I'm having -- and maybe it's caused by the fact we do have SNG at WP:NMODEL, just not for models -- is that the guidelines say "1.Has had significant roles in multiple notable films, television shows, stage performances, or other productions." Which seems to indicate that even if no one is talking about these roles, they're still enough. And the fact this set of guidelines specifically calls out models would mean that we'd interpret that guideline to mean (in the case of a model) 'important modeling assignments' which would seem to include things like fashion mag covers and being the face of major skincare brands. I do agree that importance is not notability; what I'm wondering is whether appearing on the cover of a magazine that is considered a reliable source is significant coverage equivalent to a long text-based profile inside. It's coverage in a reliable source. It's just not text. --valereee (talk) 18:53, 26 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Let's say you have a model on a dozen different covers of big-name magazines. Even if that were to connote notability, with what material would we write the bio? The presumption of notability is not a politically-driven ILIKEIT campaign. The idea is that with particular accomplishments (like a Medal of Honor or Nobel Prize), there will be significant coverage about that person's life upon which we could write. Who, exactly, is writing about these models? The Daniella van Graas article relies heavily upon FashionModelDirectory.com which just establishes she exists and did covers. With no real coverage about her as a person, why would we write a bio about her? This is why there's no inherent notability in modeling. If Daniella were able to suit up for a game of Major League Baseball, there would be an industry of sports writers to give us source material. Chris Troutman (talk) 19:03, 26 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Exactly what I’ve been saying for months on the AfD, but people want to break bad at me for pointing it out every time. This article is an abomination. This is exactly what we don’t need on this website. I wouldn’t care if she has a 90ft billboard in Times Square. Notability comes from what we can verify reliably. “Idolcelebs” is all people could come up with?! This is why I keep proposing deletion on articles almost daily! Appearing as one of Vincent Chase’s flings on Entourage is NOT enough for an article, people. Operative word is article, not blurb, not resume, and not trivia page. There is supposed to be a quality standard on this website but people want to continuously make exceptions for pretty women. It’s absolutely stupid. Trillfendi (talk) 15:23, 27 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
*: (The only reason why I would make exceptions sometimes for things like the more popular circulations of a magazine such as Vogue (American, British, French, etc.) is that they write articles about the subjects (i.e. significant coverage) while others just put a random model on the cover and don’t even so much as put their name.) Trillfendi (talk) 15:23, 27 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
They problem valereee is that these SNGs are only an approximation of whether a subject is likely to meet GNG. That's why everything is covered with WP:BASIC as an overarching caveat. If someone meets one of these criteria, or for that matter, if they meet every criteria, but they still fail GNG, then the criteria are wrong. GNG in turn is a measure of whether an article can be written. By this, I mean an actual article of the type that wouldn't stand out like a sore thumb in any traditional encyclopedia. (Note: That article doesn't have to be written, but it has to be capable of being written.)
It's important not to get so caught up in sets of special rules that we lose sight of the purpose of the rules. If you want to update the special rules, then you need to show that the criteria you're suggesting is likely to mean the subject meets GNG. Keeping in mind that notability is a measure or write-ability, and not of importance. The consequence of that is that we're inevitably going to have important people who are not notable, and notable people who are not important. GMGtalk 19:07, 26 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
GreenMeansGo and Chris troutman, and I do agree with you both. I'm just...kind of feeling undecided here. I feel there's something in our approach that is missing something important in these cases, but I'm not figuring out what it is that's missing. To continue Chris' sports analogy, I almost feel like it might be like barely-notable sports figures: if they played 1 game at the professional level of sport X, they're notable, even if no one ever wrote anything about them of significance in a reliable source. --valereee (talk) 19:22, 26 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, NSPORTS is a mess. But just because people read NSPORTS and throw throw everything else out the window as they proceed to make 10,000 10-word perma-stubs, doesn't mean the answer is to lower everything else to the same standard of non-notability. GMGtalk 19:26, 26 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
GreenMeansGo, lol, very true. --valereee (talk) 19:31, 26 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • WP:ENT, WP:MODEL, WP:NACTOR? They're the same guideline! Doesn't anyone notice this?! I feel like I'm taking crazy pills! At least for models at AfD, a lot of uncertainty could be settled by coming to consensus on what counts as notable "other productions". No need to create a new SNG. Just an explanatory footnote would do. This might also help sort through model articles that rely on marginal "15 models you HAVE to see!" clickbait masquerading as significant coverage. Bakazaka (talk) 20:02, 26 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
To chime in here, the Daniella van Graas is not "an abomination." The impending WP:Snowball keep will prove that claim wrong.
The question of sources and estimable work is a perennial problem. Apparently User:Trillfendi knows nothing about modeling. van Graas was a Ford model (a high levvel accolade), the Aveeno spokesmodel and face for years – replaced by Jennifer Aniston. She has a substantial work record in films and television and was for a shot time a parrt of the cast of the longest running ameican soap opera.
Finding multiple WP:RS was complicated by national boundaries and language barriers – had to find Dutch articles.
This is part of a larger campaign whereby Trillfendi is trying to forum shop.
In any event, readers use that information. WP:Not paper. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 19:07, 30 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I didn’t even bring it here—valereee created this on April 26, and pinged me, Lubbad85, and Rebecca Green, for a broader topic of the model notability issue. So how am I “forum shopping” by responding to her request? Are you illiterate? Or just plain dumb? Trillfendi (talk) 19:38, 30 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
And how do I “know nothing modeling” yet I’ve created well over 70 model articles. Manifestly I know more than you or anyone here about it. Being signed to Ford Models does not equal automatic notability. It’s idiotic. Do you want me to go to their board right now and list the hundred of un-notable models currently represented by them and who don’t have Wikipedia pages? BEING SIGNED TO A MODELING AGENCY DOESN’T CREATE NOTABILITY IF YOU HAVEN’T DONE NOTABLE WORK THAT CAN BE PROVEN WITHOUT SEARCHING THE DEEP WEB. You expect people to be impressed that she was the model of a drug store lotion brand. And when the astronomically more famous Jennifer Aniston takes her place she became a footnote? Raise your banal standards. Being on a soap opera that thousands of entry level actors go on isn’t special. Trillfendi (talk) 19:48, 30 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Your inclusionism sounds similar to ILIKEIT. Realize that you would have to gain consensus for "accolades" the rest of us have never heard of and don't care about. Instead, provide sources to make a GNG case. Chris Troutman (talk) 19:11, 30 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Nope. I disagree. Sometimes professional recognition is enough. What about professors? 7&6=thirteen (☎) 19:14, 30 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Struck the forum shopping remark. I was wrong. Although it is a fact you went here.
WP:Civil. Won't name call back. Apparently your judgment is consistently questionable in many ways? 7&6=thirteen (☎) 19:44, 30 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Dramatic irony, really rich, coming from the one blatantly lying. Trillfendi (talk) 20:27, 30 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Since you think having once had a comp card (if you even know what that is) from Ford Models is unmitigated notability just based on the Ford Models name: Abigail Olin, Adriana Cernanova, Allegra Doherty, Allie Redmond, Alyssa Arnesen, Amanda Batcher, Amanda Mondale, Amber Wignall, Anastacia Lupu, Anisa Dagher, Angelina Jesson, Anna Fischer, Anna Rachford, Arina Lush, Ashley Augenbergs, Aryn Terry Charlotte Rose, Chloe Kramer, Clair Wuestenberg, Dalia Savic, Dalila Babakhanova, Elise Agee, Elizabeth Sawatzky, Ella Rattigan, Gaby Diana, Grace Fly, Hannah Claverie, Hilal Ata, Hiltje de Kroon, Hope Fly, Jana Julius, Jeske van der Pal, Johanna Schapfeld, Julia Courtes, Juliana Schurig, Juliet Ingleby, Kate Li, Kiran Kandola, Laras Sekar, Lieke van Houten, Lila Cardona, Luiza Scandelari, Mia Gruenwald, Natalie Brown, Oliwia Lis, Pamela Ramos, Raquel Pascual Vila, Rebekka Eriksen, Rona Mahal, Rose Costa, Sara Soric, Selena de Carvalho, Selma Hadziosmanovic, Tanya Kizko, Thairine Garcia, Tsheca White, Vasilisa Pavlova, and Veridiana could use your "assistance" in article creation. And that’s barely scratching the surface of one board.... Good luck trying to make something out of a picture, blurb, gossip, people search website, one sentence, asinine forum or blog from a teenage girl’s room, or Instagram posts. Trillfendi (talk) 04:03, 1 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

There unequivocally needs to be a fundamental change in what notability is considered for a model (no matter if it's a fashion model, model-turned-actress, glamour model, etc.) otherwise the same re-litigation is going to end up happening every 3 months. There are people who think alleged appearance equals notability (then anybody could say they walked for Dior and get an article. Which sadly seems to be the real issue in this category. Countless articles with 2 sources--models.com for the agency and FMD for wild, unverified statements.) and there are people who think a model's article should be more than a terribly sourced CV. And there's a third squadron of people who think nothing is enough to prove notability even if the preeminent Vogue says "this model is a top model" and does have actually notable appearances that get attention (Balmain, Alexander Wang, and Prada campaigns tend to do that). I created Keke Lindgard because she walked in the Victoria's Secret Fashion Show and that event gets a lot of press for months but at the bare minimum she had a regional source and a reputable fashion source that gave facts and didn't ask stupid, useless questions. The problem is every year there are dozens of "look who's walking in the Victoria's Secret Fashion Show!" and "is Jane Dane coming back this year?" articles from Vogue, Allure, Harper's Bazaar, InStyle, etc that rarely offer much substance. If someone proposed it for deletion I wouldn't budge but at least she has a career to stand on for refunding if that happened. Suelyn Medeiros, Esther Baxter, and Celine Farach incontestably need to be deleted. Like, today. "Sexy video model takes Instagram pictures"? "What's your favorite color?" Ludicrous. That is what is unacceptable. That's the stuff that needs to be eradicated on sight. Hilda Clark could definitely be redirected elsewhere. Trillfendi (talk) 17:01, 1 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
There will always be editors who disagree, for good reasons and bad, and if those editors disappear, more will take their place. So in my opinion it's more useful to focus on the process and guidelines. What would you say to removing the "or other productions" from WP:ENT? That would, in theory, remove the argument that show X or Y or magazine cover Z is sufficient for notability. Bakazaka (talk) 19:16, 1 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Addendum given the structure of the opening question in this discussion: A WP:ENT footnote clarifying that magazine covers are not "significant coverage" would close a potential loophole. Bakazaka (talk) 19:25, 1 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • No need for SNG, but some milestones probably imply presumed notability. A model making more than 10 million dollars a year, a model who has had many covers on major publications, a model who has been in many campaigns.... All of these are strong indications that the subject probably has SIGCOV. However, given the rather copious (and frivolous) sourcing out there on models were really don't need a SNG with presumed notability. Find the sources - they shouldn't be hard to find (at least for models from the past two decades). Thresholds for model notability should be described in WikiProject space or an essay. If there is an issue with sourcing for historic models (e.g. from the early 90s back in time - where digital archive access is more spotty) - that probably merits more attention. Icewhiz (talk) 06:36, 1 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I agree with Icewhiz. Getting onto the roster of the Ford Agency as a regular is somewhat akin to being drafted, signed and playing regularly for the New York Yankees. It'a an elite and exclusive honor. but getting to gauge levels of success is still an issue, and numbers of contracts, covers, etc. are part; obviously WP:RS are too. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 17:37, 1 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Of the Top 50 models right now, half of them are signed to either DNA Models or The Society Management (Elite) with Next Management almost making a triumvirate of domination. Ford only has 4. That analogy is dated. Trillfendi (talk) 22:57, 1 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Calibrating these rules of thumb takes effort - going over AfDs (of a large bunch of models). Collecting stats and BEFOREing sources for multiple articles. WP:SOLDIER and WP:AIRCRASH carry some (non-binding policy wise) weight at AfD since AfD participants think they are a fairly decent rule of thumb. I'd suggest that instead of discussing here - that people interested in modelling AfDs start doing the legwork. Shamlessly plugging this in here - User:Levivich/Footy AfDs - Levivich and myself are running a side project, trying to gauge NFOOTY's accuracy (which is a SNG coupled with the essay FPL) - this takes leg work. Icewhiz (talk) 17:53, 1 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Scroll up and you'll see another approach: discuss until a well-formed RfC question emerges, then use the RfC process. Bakazaka (talk) 19:16, 1 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
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