Talk:WikiLeaks

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Why the disclaimer?

Apple Records doesn't have a disclaimer that they aren't related to Apple Inc. So why does this article need a disclaimer? This looks like a meta Wikipedia thing. Wiki software predates Wikipedia by many years and WikiLeaks originally was conceived to use Wiki software, but they later rejected it. Someone Not Awful (talk) 23:28, 24 April 2018 (UTC)

Someone Not Awful, I support retaining the disclaimer. I have often observed people online confusing WikiLeaks with Wikipedia. And your Apple analogy is absurd. In 2017, CIA Director Mike Pompeo called WikiLeaks "a non-state hostile intelligence service." No U.S. government official has said any such thing about Apple. Whenever possible, Wikipedia would be wise to distance itself from WikiLeaks, which is toxic on a grand scale. KalHolmann (talk) 00:02, 25 April 2018 (UTC)

The hatnote has been extensively discussed, and consensus is that it is a necessary evil. In general, Wikipedia does not use disclaimers in articles. This is a rare exception. Reach Out to the Truth 00:06, 25 April 2018 (UTC)

Wikipedia has numerous partner projects and organizations, from WikiMedia, WikiCommons etc.. and fact Wikileaks started out with MediaWiki software muddles the two. In general, I would support adding a disclaimer to WikiHow as well, but that's a discussion on their page. Shushugah (talk) 13:20, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

The disclaimer is there to hide the obvious connection between the Wimipedia and WikiLeaks. Assange is obviously a sock puppet of Jimbo Wales. Sayyed al afghani (talk) 20:15, 29 August 2018 (UTC)

It's been discussed - the hatnote's needed, and a rare exception to the guidelines of "no disclaimers". Paintspot Infez (talk) 23:02, 14 April 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 2 November 2018

Change 4chan forum (used by far-right American groups) to 4chan forum, to comply with NPOV and reduce bias. 97.121.167.173 (talk) 06:39, 2 November 2018 (UTC)

The sources after the sentence you are referring to support the information that you are asking be removed. How is this not neutral? ~ GB fan 10:12, 2 November 2018 (UTC)

 Done (and also wikilinked 4chan). GB fan, the parenthetical note made it sound like (or could have made it sound like) 4chan's main purpose is use by the far-right, whereas the Guardian article simply said that the Monde article reported that it was "[favored]" by them. I wouldn't automatically object to a more nuanced note here if it can be made in a well-sourced way, but as it stood, it was a blanket statement about 4chan that wasn't appropriate. –Deacon Vorbis (carbon • videos) 14:25, 2 November 2018 (UTC)

Why no external website link?

I'm wondering why the article doesn't provide a link to WikiLeak's offical website. The "External links" section is empty. NewWorld101 (talk) 16:09, 13 December 2018 (UTC)

I was wondering the same thing. Although WikiLeaks.org is written in the side box I don't know why it isn't the usual clickable URL Cannonmc (talk) 08:29, 14 April 2019 (UTC)

Seth Rich BS

The editor Aviartm has edit-warred out long-standing content on Assange's fueling of Seth Rich conspiracy theories (even going as far as violating 3RR). The editor keeps removing RS language that notes that Assange (1) suggested/implied that Seth Rich was the leaker[1][2][3][4][5][6][7] and (2) that Assange's BS fuelled conspiracy theories on the subject.[8][9] The editor instead keeps adding obfuscating WP:OR nonsense that claims Assange "stated no confirmation or refutation that Seth Rich" was the source, when RS clearly say Assange "suggested"/"implied" this[10][11][12][13][14][15][16] or "carefully nurtured" the conspiracy theory[17]. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 15:21, 14 April 2019 (UTC)

You just copied and pasted your info here from your talk page inquiry on Julian Assange. And to correct the balance as I said previously at Julian Assange's talk page, I added the material to WikiLeaks here. Now, both POVs are balanced. Aviartm (talk) 18:55, 14 April 2019 (UTC)

I've removed this. First, Aviartm, I have no idea what you mean by "both POVs." What "POVs" would those be? The sources reflect that the implication that Seth Rich might be connected to WikiLeaks is an evidence-free conspiracy theory. Second, moreover, you removed the cited statement "No evidence supports the claim that Rich was the source of the leaks" (that's WP:PROFRINGE) and inserted lengthy Assange quotes cited to YouTube clips to Assange interviews. That's WP:PROFRINGE. Third, you lack consensus for this material and need to stop inserting it, over the objections of other editors. Neutrality^talk 20:57, 16 April 2019 (UTC)

Neutrality Firstly, only 1 editor has objected, that is Snooganssnoogans. By "both POVs", I am referring to the insinuation by Assange in an interview with Nieuwsuur and the straightforward comment by Assange in an interview with Fox News. Secondly, "No evidence supports the claim that Rich was the source of the leaks", yes, and like Assange too has mentioned, Seth Rich is not either. The insinuation/suggestion/implication of Assange by Assange with Nieuwsuur is already in there. Continued, I removed the sentence because I found the two citations to be inadequate and not relating to the sentence. The Slate citations debunks a conspiracy about the FBI killing Rich; the citation furthers discusses Assange's interview with Nieuwsuur, which is already cited numerous times. The second citation for the sentence, NBC, mentions WikiLeaks' reward for information and other deaths "related" to Rich's. That is it. Neither mention deliberately that "there is no evidence", etc. That is why it was removed. It can be added, just add a corresponding and appropriate citation for it instead of off topic citations. Further, how is it Wikipedia:PROFRINGE if there are citations with the quotations? From the page: "The notability of a fringe theory must be judged by statements from verifiable and reliable sources." The quotations have several citations so I think it is not Wikipedia:PROFRINGE. Lastly, neither does Snooganssnoogans have consensus. Aviartm (talk) 21:17, 16 April 2019 (UTC)

First, those are just statements of a single individual, so it's super weird to refer to two statements of the same guy as 'both POVs." Second, Snoogans plus myself is two editors. Third, as your second point ("there's no evidence that Rich wasn't the source of the leaks"), that's an argument from ignorance. Fourth, the sources clearly support the statement that there is no evidence behind the conspiracy theory; the Slate article says there is "absolutely zero evidence for" the claim. Neutrality^talk 22:01, 16 April 2019 (UTC)

Neutrality Let's try and not play semantics please, just "both POVs" as in "both comments". Secondly, because prior to you commenting, there has only been Snooganssnoogans on this talk page. Thirdly, how is that bad per se? There is a void here; no one knows for sure. U.S. Intelligence says Russia, Assange says no; doesn't confirm or deny who the source is, etc. It is not our place to speculate the conclusion; per Wikipedia:CRYSTALBALL. As previously mentioned, "No evidence supports the claim that Rich was the source of the leaks" can be added, just add right citations. The Slate does mention that but about the FBI conspiracy, not the "No evidence supports the claim that Rich was the source of the leaks." These are widely 2 different things. Lastly, you did not comment how on using quotations from reliable sources is Wikipedia:PROFRINGE. I would like feedback because you said it, so it is best that you come up with a response please.

Finally, I think it is best that we do include "No evidence supports the claim that Rich was the source of the leaks." with appropriate citations; include quotations from Assange's interviews from Nieuwsuur and Fox News as prior to my edits becoming controversial, these interviews were already cited, just not in text form in the page. Both comments of Assange should be in there. The current state of the page is misleading and the "fueling conspiracies" part is extremely violating Correlation does not imply causation. Snooganssnoogans since the start has not been cooperative and been Wikipedia:STONEWALLING heavily. All I wanted to do was add Assange's comments on the matter (with reliable sources of course) to expand contexts and his thoughts on the matter. To eschew Assange's comments on a controversial matter is unethical editing in my opinion. Aviartm (talk) 22:26, 16 April 2019 (UTC)

The "fueling conspiracies" part is taken directly from the source. E.g., NBC News: "WikiLeaks ... is fueling Internet conspiracy theories." I have no idea what you mean by repeating "extremely violating correlation does not imply causation," but that's not a policy. And there is no policy that we have to replicate long quotations from anyone, let alone fringe figures. WP:PROFRINGE says we are "nor a soapbox for self-promotion" of fringe theories, nor should we give "the proclamations of its adherents" excessive prominent. Rely on the mainstream sources and their interpretations. Neutrality^talk 23:48, 16 April 2019 (UTC)

Neutrality I know that there is no policy of "Correlation does not imply causation" (either though it should be a policy), but it is certainly an intellectual principle of reasoning. D.C. Police offered a $25,000 reward for information yet the Wikipedia page does not entertain that idea of the "D.C. Police fueling conspiracy theories!" I wouldn't say Assange is "fringe"; continued, so we should just eschew from using quotations now on Wikipedia from individuals in any matter? "The notability of a fringe theory must be judged by statements from verifiable and reliable sources, not the proclamations of its adherents." My edits adhered to this 100%. Frankly, so far, there has been no good causes to be against my edits besides conducting Wikipedia:IDONTLIKEIT and Wikipedia:STONEWALLING... Both comments by Assange, the straight-forward one and the insinuation one were on the page, cited using reliable sources, and structured in a Wikipedia:NPOV manner. Now, the page is not Wikipedia:NPOV and there are factual errors.

Gimmicks used to object my edits: 1. No clear consensus, 2. WP:PROFRINGE despite edits being neutral and heavily cited by "the mainstream sources and their interpretations" (Exhibit A, B, C, D, E, F; plus new citations from convos such as G. Despite Citations 260, 262, and 263 mentioning the Dutch Nieuwsuur interview. 3 out of 4 currently-live citations mention the Dutch Nieuwsuur interview.; all I did was add quotations of this interview and Fox News' interview with Assange.; 3. Wikipedia:STONEWALLING, and 4. Wikipedia:IDONTLIKEIT. This is the most baseless and bogus opposition in contesting any edits of mine I have ever encountered. Not once did any editor spruce up or change the material of my edits at the time. They were always reverted despite lack of argument. And since Snooganssnoogans is not participating and possibly forcing a WP:DEADHORSE card, and you Neutrality, not showing much error or contestation in my edits, I can only try again with my edits. In short, the editor that expands contexts gets contested for no good reason. Aviartm (talk) 01:31, 17 April 2019 (UTC)

Analogies of Julian Assange to the D.C. police are totally irrelevant. I've made my position, based on Wikipedia policy, very clear, as has Snooganssnoogans. You haven't fully responded to those points, but have chosen instead to get personal ("bogus opposition," etc.). I'm not going to repeat myself. Neutrality^talk 03:46, 17 April 2019 (UTC)

Neutrality Which points have I not addressed? You and I have both responded thoroughly to our comments and questions. And your most 2nd most recent response to my concerns were primarily for comment than anything else which I responded to them in full. About Snooganssnoogans, Snooganssnoogans has not responded to this Talk Page at all. I have addressed all of your inquires, why not continue the reciprocity? There are clearly more dilemmas and violations in opposing my edits than my edits being published. Lastly, if you and Snooganssnoogans wish not to correspond, I will make my edits again. There is a reason why Talk Pages are a thing. Aviartm (talk) 03:58, 17 April 2019 (UTC)

Neutrality "Analogies of Julian Assange to the D.C. police are totally irrelevant." <-- Why? Asserting something does not make it true. That's a non-argument. 84percent (talk) 04:01, 17 April 2019 (UTC)

I'm not going to get into games with you. This is an encyclopedia and not an Internet forum or debating society. If you want to take this to RfC with a version A/version B, take it to RfC (which would be better than filibustering). But if you "make your edits" again, without consensus, as you have threatened to do, you would violate Wikipedia policy. So I want to make that very clear and explicit to you. Neutrality^talk 04:02, 17 April 2019 (UTC)

Neutrality You are an administrator, you should be willing to solve disputes yet you have shown you are apathetic to doing so. And which policy will I be violating? Because in this case, if no consensus is reached, now what? Is Murder Of Seth Rich never to be edited again because "no consensus was reached?" And this situation is just moronic. Snooganssnoogans makes a Talk Page inquiry to solve an Wikipedia:Edit dispute of the lowest-quality imaginable; later doesn't participate whatsoever; somehow I am in the wrong for alleged Wikipedia:PROFRINGE but that gets disproven and no consensus is reached with the original creator of this Talk page inquiry, or anyone so far in this discussion. Editors should not Wikipedia:Cherrypick, Wikipedia:IDONTLIKEIT, Wikipedia:STONEWALL and should not make a Talk Page inquiry if they are not going to participate. Aviartm (talk) 04:15, 17 April 2019 (UTC)

@Neutrality: You specifically made a post on a noticeboard calling for more input to this debate. If you are uninterested in discussion, then why would you create that post calling for more eyeballs? 84percent (talk) 04:05, 17 April 2019 (UTC)

I am interested in getting more views from experienced editors. I'm not interested in listening to the same editor filibuster. Please comment on the content, not on me, and please stop pinging me. Neutrality^talk 04:07, 17 April 2019 (UTC)

My edit experience is irrelevant and shouldn't be brought up here (see: WP:DNB and WP:APR). I have been and am commenting on the content; I simply asked you to explain or elaborate on your argument, however you responded with remarks about me personally, which seemingly includes a threat of admin action. My original question to you regarding the analogy of Julian Assange and the D.C. police has not been answered. 84percent (talk) 04:12, 17 April 2019 (UTC)

It is very important to present a WP:NPOV. The text is currently clearly biased and misleading. In particular, replace

WikiLeaks fuelled the conspiracy theories by offering a reward of $20,000 for information leading to the capture of Rich's killer and hinting that Rich may have been the source of the leaked emails. No evidence supports the claim that Rich was the source of the leaks.

With the more accurate and undoubtedly neutral:

Julian Assange did not confirm or deny the source behind the DNC emails. Assange elaborated by saying; "We're not saying that Seth Rich's death necessarily is connected to our publications – that's something that needs to be established. But if there is any question about a source of WikiLeaks being threatened, then people can be assured that this organization will go after anyone who may have been involved in some kind of attempt to coerce or possibly, in this kill a potential source." WikiLeaks offered a reward of $20,000 for information regarding Rich's death.

84percent (talk) 03:27, 17 April 2019 (UTC)

The existing text accurately reflects the reliable cited sources. There is zero basis to call it "misleading" or less "accurate." Neutrality^talk 03:30, 17 April 2019 (UTC)

You asked for more eyeballs here; do you want my input or not? In my opinion, and others, there is a clear bias and the way the text is worded does not present a WP:NPOV. 84percent (talk) 03:33, 17 April 2019 (UTC)

I agree with Aviartm above. 84percent (talk) 03:34, 17 April 2019 (UTC)

Thank you 84percent. If you read what I have said of the past couple of hours, or the entire discussion, thanks for reading. Neutrality has yet to respond to my comments, again. I am still flustered that editors would contest more context on citations that are already within the page. It makes no sense to me. Aviartm (talk) 03:43, 17 April 2019 (UTC)

How can it be that adding additional factual context and including the original quote is somehow less neutral? Thank you for you efforts in keeping the page honest. 84percent (talk) 03:53, 17 April 2019 (UTC)

84percent I have no idea, zero idea. Thank you for the compliment. The pathetic thing about this, which I'm sure you read, is that "3 out of 4 currently-live citations mention the Dutch Nieuwsuur interview," and all I do is add context and its gets STONEWALLED. Aviartm (talk) 04:01, 17 April 2019 (UTC)

If you believe there is community-wide support for your obfuscatory fringe version, then start a RfC. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 11:36, 17 April 2019 (UTC)

War Crimes

Since the arrest of Julian Assange "it" is often wrote/said WikiLeaks revealed war crimes.

For instance, this week Ecuador’s former president said that "although Julian Assange denounced war crimes, he’s only the person supplying the information." Ref.: The Latest: Quito arrest part of Assange probe, AP News, April 12, 2019

With the assistance of newspapers including the New York Times, Der Spiegel, the Guardian and Le Monde, the "Iraq: The War Logs" were disclosed and revealed the Pentagon had falsely denied knowledge of various crimes. The lead for the Guardian’s introduction to "Iraq: The War Logs" said that the WikiLeaks documents detail "torture, summary executions and war crimes."

Without going further back, have Wikileaks’ leaked documents exposed war crimes? If so, shouldn't we mention it in the introductory section. --93.211.209.233 (talk) 15:32, 14 April 2019 (UTC)

Strong US-centric bias and recentism in lede

The lede is strongly focused on American politics. In particular, about a third of the lede is about the ongoing political scandal over 2016 election ("Russiagate"). The lede makes almost no mention of Wikileaks' leaks regarding other countries, including Saudi Arabia, Syria and Russia. Russiagate doesn't need as much space in the lede, and the other leaks need at least some mention. -Thucydides411 (talk) 00:13, 17 April 2019 (UTC)

Thanks -- I agree. I've removed some of the RussiaGate from the lead, but I haven't touched the body. Specifically, whether Julian Assange has a US political preference is not relevant; we do not write the same about editor-in-chiefs or CEOs in the leads of, for example, The New York Times, Forbes, or other popular outlets. 84percent (talk) 03:57, 17 April 2019 (UTC)

When RS cover the biases of "news" organizations, we absolutely do cover that in the lede. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 11:30, 17 April 2019 (UTC)

Nope, the lede should summarize the body and a large part of the body covers how this "journalistic" outlet pushes feverish conspiracy theories and hoaxes related to US politics, and all coincidentally about Democrats. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 11:30, 17 April 2019 (UTC)