Talk:Fraser Island

Questionable line and source

There is a line in the frontier conflict chapter that goes Recent research has shown that the native police operations on Fraser Island during 24 December 1851 and 3 January 1852 were lawful and that only two Aboriginals were killed while attacking Walker’s police party on the night of 27 December 1851.[43] It seems oddly political and the source it references has a very odd description very shady description — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.144.200.33 (talk) 22:53, 30 November 2022 (UTC)

Rename article K'gari

Given that the name has now been changed, it seems logical to rename this article K'gari and redirect Fraser Island to here. See news article on this http://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2014/oct/24/-sp-paradise-restored-kgari-native-title-success-the-start-of-a-new-story-for-fraser-island This would be the same solution as is used for Uluru Wcornwell (talk) 03:09, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

The news article says the native title claim has been successful, but the rest of it is talking about how they hope to change the name. So a change of this article title would be premature until the name is officially changed by the Queensland Government. But it would certainly be appropriate to add this news about native title and the desire to change the name to the article in the interim. Kerry (talk) 10:11, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

If the name does change I would prefer to leave this page name the same and have K'gari as a redirect. Our guideline states that "When a widely accepted English name, in a modern context, exists for a place, we should use it." Until K'gari becomes commonly used it should not be changed. - Shiftchange (talk) 08:18, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

Good points. Didn't quite pick up it was a federal judge not the Queensland government in the guardian article; also the distinction between government names and common usage is a good one. cheers, Wcornwell (talk) 05:55, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

Just returned from weeks here and surrounds. 100% people are using K'Gari now. The other is still in common use too, but K'Gari was the usually the headline name. Especially in light of the history behind the European naming, if somebody with more time than me could look at the necessary evidence required to update Wikipedia here, I would be deeply obliged. Koilectiv (talk) 02:25, 3 June 2023 (UTC)

The recent decision by the Queensland Department of Resources to recognise the proper name of "Fraser Island" as "K'gari" should inform the decision to change the name of this Wikipedia article. As other people have mentioned, the World Heritage Committee also officially recognised the name also as K'gari back in 2021.

See here: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-06-07/traditional-owners-celebrate-fraser-island-name-change-to-kgari/102410130 Oskar Suth (talk) 10:09, 7 June 2023 (UTC)

Agreed. Yesterday, in a closed ceremony on K'Gari, the Qld Premier announced that K'Gari is now the legally recognised name under Qld law, ending an 8 year struggle by Butchalla people to have their land's accurate name recognised in Qld law. The Premier emphasised that this "always was, always will be" the right name for these lands. Reclamation of the original name was also popularly supported by broad consultations open to all parties concerned. And so, K'Gari it is. Koilectiv (talk) 01:06, 8 June 2023 (UTC)

I think it is time to change the name now to 'K'gari (Fraser Island)' as this is now its official name via the Qld Gov. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.20.69.24 (talk) 08:43, 2 December 2020 (UTC)

Not according to the Qld Govt, see [1] Kerry (talk) 13:05, 4 December 2020 (UTC)

I have updated the name to reflect the official situation

There may be some room for a debate once the change becomes official, not changing the name in that case as pointed out about how keeping the old name would reflect a common usage for now, but there are other considerations to be made, such as the moral consideration of continuing a colonial legacy etc. Not a debate I want to make now, but I don't think its as clear cut as just applying the guidelines, they are not and cannot be relevant to every situation and in cases like these there is a basis for certain exceptions JWBurgess (talk) 01:14, 18 October 2021 (UTC)

It surprises me, that this article still carries the old name. It worked in case of Uluru and this articel should be renamed as well - I just did it for the German version. Best, Llydia (talk) 10:06, 6 October 2022 (UTC)

This question has been under debate for some years, but as of today the name has finally been officially changed by the Queensland state government following public input and consultation. The official government statement has been released today, and therefore now is the most appropriate time for the article to be renamed: https://statements.qld.gov.au/statements/97872 Ishel99 (talk) 13:40, 7 June 2023 (UTC)

Agree As the name is now officially K'gari it would make sense to replicate this on the article AlienChex (talk) 22:31, 7 June 2023 (UTC)

Shipwreck

I added a small section about the shipwreck. There was no information on the island (ie: plaque, sign, etc.) so I found this information on the internet. It seems to be accurate as it can be found on many different sources. Also, I have some pictures; I will add one of the shipwreck soon.

I've added a bit more to the story of the shipwreck. Specopsaust (talk) 14:02, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

I added that the name is due to James Fraser or his wife. Guardian says it was the wife. I am about to add the citation of the Guardian article announcing the official name change and history of the name. Zaslav (talk) 04:42, 7 June 2023 (UTC)

Fraser Island was named after James Fraser as per the official Queensland Place Names entry, not Eliza Fraser. Kerry (talk) 04:58, 22 June 2023 (UTC)

Former name or the other name?

Previously the article stated -> "Fraser Island, also known as "K'gari". I just edited it and changed it to "K'gari, 'formally' known as Fraser Island" since officially Fraser island is not its name anymore and likely to stay that way. People should be made aware it doesn't have two names but only one official name. And that Fraser island was the former official name. But feel maybe it needs to be discussed since it's a gray new territory here. Some context is the reason they changed the name was supposedly to get rid of the colonial stain given the life story of Eliza Fraser, who practically demonized indigenous people. So it's extremely unlikely the government will officially rename the island back as "Fraser island" ever again. Nvtuil (talk) 08:26, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

The name Fraser Island remains official and the primary name. It is not the former name at all. See my comments on the move discussion above. If you are going to make claims about such things, point to evidence for what you claim. This is an encyclopedia, citations needed! Kerry (talk) 15:21, 2 October 2021 (UTC)

I think you meant 'formerly' not 'formally', but, more importantly, I think a change to the lead sentence should follow the move, not precede it. Tkanus ^dialogue 00:58, 3 November 2021 (UTC)

The Islands name has never formally changed from Fraser Island, It's still in the public consultation phase. [2] Nford24 (PE121 Personnel Request Form) 23:01, 2 October 2022 (UTC)

Time to update the name.

Since 2011, K’gari has been recognised as an alternative name for what was Fraser Island, but now the latter has been dropped entirely.
K’gari was originally known by Europeans as Great Sandy Island before it was changed to Fraser Island, after Scotswoman Eliza Fraser was shipwrecked there in the 1830s.
The name had been deemed culturally inappropriate as Fraser wrote a debunked negative tale of her “captivity” by the Butchulla people, who she called “savages” and “cannibals”, after the shipwreck. The lies spread throughout the English colony despite being contradicted by fellow survivors.
— https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2023/jun/07/fraser-island-no-more-kgaris-official-name-change-corrects-a-historic-wrong

Pandapod1 (talk) 08:56, 7 June 2023 (UTC)

In light of this news, the name of the article should be changed. Jmbranum (talk) 11:51, 7 June 2023 (UTC)

References

Requested move 9 April 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) {{ping|ClydeFranklin}} (t/c) 02:52, 16 April 2023 (UTC)

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Fraser Island → K'gari (Fraser Island) – Aim to reflect the official government name of the island and recognise its historical significance. It is currently known as both K'gari and Fraser Island by Queenslanders in everyday use. This would be a Wikipedia title change similar to that of the Uluru or Kata Tjuta pages that followed the gazetted renaming of places to their traditional names. Title change also promotes easy access to the Wikipedia page via Google search of both K'gari and Fraser Island. DrSielt (talk) 01:43, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose the currently proposed "K'gari (Fraser Island)" title as is. Unless a proper common name used in reliable source in its entirety is "K'gari (Fraser Island)", it would violate our article title naming conventions. It would then incorrectly be viewed as a parenthetical disambiguation title and give the misconception that "K'gari" is a only a part of "Fraser Island". Note that the Uluru or Kata Tjuta pages are currently not stylized that way as parenthetical titles. The article should either be "K'gari" or "Fraser Island", depending on the common name rules instead of official names, with the guidelines regarding the treatment of alternative names applied to the lead intro section and incoming redirects accordingly. Zzyzx11 (talk) 15:44, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Requested move 7 June 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. WP:NAMECHANGES was cited but no evidence provided to show that most RS had stopped using the old name. WP:OFFICIALNAME clearly specifies that being an official name is not a valid argument for being the title, it must be the WP:COMMONNAME in RS. Perhaps a case of WP:TOOSOON. (non-admin closure) Captain Jack Sparrow (talk) 14:16, 21 June 2023 (UTC)

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Fraser Island → K'gari – K’gari is now the official standalone title. "Fraser Island" is officially dropped.[3][4][5][6][7] 203.8.131.32 (talk) 03:26, 7 June 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. Skarmory (talk • contribs) 05:23, 14 June 2023 (UTC)

• Support - Since K’gari is now indeed the island's official name as per the World Heritage Committee. https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-06-07/traditional-owners-celebrate-fraser-island-name-change-to-kgari/102410130 Hu753 (talk) 06:47, 7 June 2023 (UTC)
• Amendment - The title should be changed to K’gari (island) to acknowledge that the subject is an island. - Hu753 (talk) 07:47, 7 June 2023 (UTC)

  Comment - Article names are parenthesized for disambiguation. There's no reason to put "(island)" in the title unless it's going to be confused with something else. Park3r (talk) 08:00, 7 June 2023 (UTC)

• Support - it is now the sole official name, as per https://www.qld.gov.au/environment/land/title/place-names/proposals-decisions Job Number 22-022, can finally put this one to rest. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Notconnor (talk • contribs) 05:19, 7 June 2023 (UTC)

  Comment - the policy that governs article naming is WP:COMMONNAME. Wikipedia articles don't necessarily reflect official names. Park3r (talk) 07:55, 7 June 2023 (UTC)

  Comment - the next section of that guideline is WP:NAMECHANGES which suggests that we should use the new name if it's a clear and intentional name change. The-Pope (talk) 14:57, 7 June 2023 (UTC)

  Comment - It specifically says "If the reliable sources written after the change is announced routinely use the new name, Wikipedia should follow suit and change relevant titles to match". It seems likely it will meet the recognisability criteria in the not-too-distant future (as is the case with Uluru), but we should follow what reliable sources use. StuartH (talk) 18:28, 7 June 2023 (UTC)

  Also, given the history of failed move attempts, this should probably go through WP:RM. I'm not sure about the etiquette of doing that when the discussion has already begun (it's triggered automatically with the template, but it doesn't look like the template was used). StuartH (talk) 03:01, 8 June 2023 (UTC)

  Previous failed moves were due to the official dual name "K'gari (Fraser Island)" not meeting the disambiguation guideline. K'gari is now the sole official name. There appears to be sufficient support here for simple redirects. 203.8.131.32 (talk) 04:17, 8 June 2023 (UTC)

  I'm leaning towards supporting a move, but it does appear to clearly meet the definition of a potentially controversial move WP:PCM. One of the attempts failed because it was moved without going through the proper processes, something that should be avoided if there is strong support for a move. StuartH (talk) 04:47, 8 June 2023 (UTC)

• Support - yes, use the new official name, but keep Fraser Island as a redirect. --Bduke (talk) 08:33, 7 June 2023 (UTC)

Support Poketama (talk) 09:08, 7 June 2023 (UTC)

• Support - will only increase in usage. The-Pope (talk) 14:57, 7 June 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose for now - per WP:COMMONNAME. The same argument was had with Turkey after the country changed names to Türkiye. Nford24 (PE121 Personnel Request Form) 06:14, 8 June 2023 (UTC)
• Weak support - I think we should be guided by the secondary sources on this, most of the sources reporting on the change have shifted to using K'gari rather than just reporting on the change, but I don't see a major issue in waiting if it's unclear to what extent the new name meets the recognisability criteria. StuartH (talk) 06:28, 8 June 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose for now - per WP:COMMONNAME. Kiwiz1338 (talk) 07:27, 8 June 2023 (UTC)
• Support - use the new official name, and make Fraser Island a redirect. The issue was discussed last year and reverted to Fraser Island at that time because, in fact, the name had not been officially changed yet. Now that it has, the name change is appropriate. It will no doubt be controversial to some people for political reasons, as seen in the unattributed edits earlier today, but now is an appropriate time. The only reason for delay might be to wait a few days until a certain sector of society loses interest and moves on to the next controversy :P Ishel99 (talk) 09:16, 8 June 2023 (UTC)
• Support - This shouldn't even be a debate. 'Fraser Island' will redirect users to the page and so there will be no confusion. AussieWikiDan ^(talk) 11:58, 8 June 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose - This appears to be an astro turf campaign. I live on Fraser Island, no one here calls it anything but Fraser, same with the mainland. Just a small group of political activists who victim blame a rape victim ignoring the court records and trial records because it suits their ideology. This isn't like Ayers Rock because people actually live here. Their mainland government can change the name officially as much as they like, just like Ayers Rock the world and the people living there will still know and use it's actual name. 2001:8003:2964:AF00:EC5F:C189:8DB0:6EE2 (talk) 21:14, 8 June 2023 (UTC)

  We are not disputing that there will be people opposed to the government's decision to change the name. However, that is not relevant to this discussion. AussieWikiDan (talk) 01:56, 9 June 2023 (UTC)

  It sure is irrelevant. But I'm not going to pretend victim blaming isn't a huge portion of this astro turfing campaign to demonize and alter our home by a radical minority group. In fact, said radical group has gone and tried to get me banned just for saying what I did. Sorry, imagine that a group of weirdos across the sea that think they can push you around because their island is bigger spend decades campaigning to change history because they're crazy ideologically possessed political types and you--the people--are left victims of their whim. You're not going to be as concise and impassioned as the average voter here. I will endeavor to keep my comments more brief. But I am 87 years old, I doubt I can teach this old dog a new trick. 2001:8003:2964:AF00:EC5F:C189:8DB0:6EE2 (talk) 08:41, 9 June 2023 (UTC)

  The thing is, Wikipedia is not a place for political campaigning. It is an encyclopaedia which, as far as possible, just tries to record the current facts, and sometimes historical facts too. There may actually be room in the article to reflect the controversy over the name change, so long as that can be supported from sources. So the facts are not going to be popular with everyone, but the fact is that the official name of your island has now changed. At 87 years of age I can understand why that would be a bitter pill to swallow. But Wikipedia can only record the change as it has happened. 'Facts' are sometimes hard to establish, and for example you can bet that the articles about the Ukraine war will have all kinds of disputes going on. But Wikipedia is not, as an organization, involved in astroturfing for issues, and its most experienced editors go to great lengths to keep things factual, neutral and unemotional - which I do understand is not where you are at on this issue, for understandable reasons. I am sure there are much more useful forums online for you to make your views known though, and to join forces with those with similar views to yourself. Ishel99 (talk) 09:05, 9 June 2023 (UTC)

  Wait. You live on Fraser Island? I know you CAN live on Fraser Island, but few do. Thiscouldbeauser (talk) 15:39, 10 June 2023 (UTC)

  This comment surprises me deeply. I am an independent observer, currently in Hervey Bay (a main access point) and have been both on K'Gari and in phonecalls to public officials there in the past weeks (preceding the name change). If anything, I'm surprised how relaxed people are here about the official name change. None of the on-island officials or resident resort staff used any other name with me but K'Gari during conversations. The vehicle ferry signage had the old name on signage, but it has become common place to see newer tourist brochures stating only K'Gari.

  There is a large population of elderly retirees in this region, some of who may have particular difficulty accepting the change. For these generations, Qld school curriculum on black history was either entirely absent or very pauce. And so it is that you get sincerely held beliefs like "no-one lives at Ayers Rock!" despite the fact Anangu have lived at Uluru for tens of thousands of years, Mutitjulu township is literally just 2k's east of the rock itself, Anangu literally co-run the national park on a daily basis, and Uluru has been the official legal name there for 35 years now. But for those raised with a basic country Qld education 60 years ago, much of what I've written could very easily seem like history itself has gone topsy turvey.

  It isn't at all my experience that locals are rejecting the name K'Gari en masse. Nor was that the government consultation's finding. If anything, in surrounding towns what I'm mostly overhearing is ordinary signs of habit change like "Oh, are you going to Fraser... um, oh... I meant K'Gari?" with a friendly smile on their face.

  But all of this is beside the point. Because this is Wikipedia. And anecdotes and unsubstantiated personal preferences don't win at Wikipedia. Koilectiv (talk) 13:21, 18 June 2023 (UTC)

• Support – per WP:NAMECHANGES Storm machine (talk) 00:18, 9 June 2023 (UTC)

  In recent months the local newspaper (no longer in hardcopy and subscriber only online) has used K'gari and Fraser Island interchangeably in headlines and copy:

  • Dingo euthanised on K’gari following 'high risk incidents'"(10 June 2023, Fraser Coast Chronicle)
  • New Fraser Coast Films company to bring Hollywood to region (2 June 2023, Fraser Coast Chronicle)

  "Another movie is also planned to be filmed on K’gari (Fraser Island) later this year, titled He Loves Me Not."

  • Woman rescued after yacht sinks off Fraser Island (15 May 2023, Fraser Coast Chronicle)

  "Emergency crews rescued a woman on Monday following the distress call from a sinking yacht at the northern tip of K’gari (Fraser Island) about 8.30pm on Sunday."

  • Girl attacked by dingo on Fraser Island (3 April 2023, Fraser Coast Chronicle)

  "Visitors and residents on K’gari are reminded to keep children under constant supervision."

  • Bargain B&B’s in Hervey Bay revealed (1 April 2023, Fraser Coast Chronicle)

  "Known for being the aquatic playground of whales and the gateway to K’gari (Fraser Island) means no matter where you stay, the Hervey Bay has plenty of nature to enjoy for a budget price."

  • Massive clean-up of harmful litter at K'gari's Boorangoora lake (29 March 2023, Fraser Coast Chronicle)

  "'K’gari is protected by three lore's. It is a World Heritage site for all to enjoy but please when on K'gari, leave only footprints,' Ms Minniecon said."

  Official sources [8], [9], [10], [11], [12], [13] all seem to point that WP:NAMECHANGES would be appropriately met.

  I would posit that Fraser Island and K'gari (Fraser Island) be the valid redirects to K'gari. Storm machine (talk) 06:20, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

• Support – There are plenty of quality sources that state that K'gari is now officially the name of Fraser Island. Per WP:COMMONNAME, the title of the article should usually reflect the common name used, but from my understanding, there were already a significant number of people who called Fraser Island K'gari before the official change, and I am of the belief that if a relatively equal number of people call the island by either name, the title should then fall back to the official name. As a precedent for an Australian place name, Uluru is still called Ayers Rock by a great number of people (and officially gazetted with both names), but since the number of people using either (or both) name(s) is very roughly equal, it makes sense to fall back to the now-official name. There should, of course, be mention of any controversy regarding the name in the article itself. As "AussieWikiDan" has already stated, the title "Fraser Island" will redirect to "K'gari", so there will be no confusion. Additionally, the lead already clearly states that K'gari used to be called Fraser Island. Furthermore, while not as important, sources state that maps and signs will now start bearing the name K'gari, which will likely increase the popularity of the name, and keeping the article title as Fraser Island may confuse people who have never heard of the island before, who search for the name "K'gari" because they read it on a map or saw it on a sign somewhere. There is no need to disambiguate the title with "(island)", as there are no other articles with the name "K'gari". 58.107.92.169 (talk) 13:37, 10 June 2023 (UTC)

Comment – As a suggestion, perhaps the lead should be changed slightly to read "K'gari, also known as Fraser Island,..." 58.107.92.169 (talk) 13:59, 10 June 2023 (UTC)

That would be ideal. Thiscouldbeauser (talk) 06:45, 11 June 2023 (UTC)

{{subst:requested move}} FlightJeremy (talk) 06:38, 11 June 2023 (UTC)

wow, i messed that up, apologies. thought that was something else. FlightJeremy (talk) 06:38, 11 June 2023 (UTC)

Comment: if this is changed, we should probably get someone to rename the page in each language wiki. Currently, by looking at the Wikidata item:

• The Czech and Polish Wikipedias use translations of "Great Sandy Island"
• The German, Hungarian, Malay, Swedish and Ukrainian Wikipedias use "K'gari" (obviously the Ukrainian Wikipedia uses the Cyrillic form)
• The Vietnamese Wikipedia uses "K'gari (Fraser Island)" (with the Fraser Island part translated into Vietnamese)
• The rest use translations of "Fraser Island"

And for other projects:

• The page "Fraser Island" on Wikivoyage is available in five languages: Dutch, English, German, Italian and Polish. The Dutch, English and German ones all use "Fraser Island" untranslated, while the Italian one uses Isola di Fraser (which is obviously Fraser Island in Italian) Polish one (which uses "Great Sandy Island" but in Polish; i.e Wielka Wyspa Piaszczysta)
• Wikimedia Commons uses "Fraser Island"

So, if the English Wikipedia renames this page, the change should be reflected on each wiki. Also, it should be reflected on other pages containing the term "Fraser Island" (e.g Fraser Island, Queensland). Thiscouldbeauser (talk) 07:05, 11 June 2023 (UTC)

• Each wiki has its own rules. We can't mandate that other wikis change their titles, nor should we choose the title of this article based upon the title patterns on other wikis. Dekimasuよ! 12:13, 13 June 2023 (UTC)
• Fraser Island, Queensland is the locality (populated place). Both the geographical feature (this article) and the locality were officially renamed at the same time. 203.8.131.32 (talk) 03:28, 14 June 2023 (UTC)

• Comment. Most of the !votes in this discussion are not at all grounded in policy. It is clear that the official name of the island has changed, but we do not necessarily use official names (WP:OFFICIAL). WP:NAMECHANGES asks us to determine whether reliable sources have generally switched to the new official title, but all of the sources linked in this section to date are about the name change itself; they are not articles that simply refer to the island by the new title. Simply citing WP:NAMECHANGES does not actually support the request, and guesses about whether the percentage of reliable sources using the official title will increase in the future are not relevant to determining the article title under our article titling policy. There is clearly a significant amount of support for this request, but I recommend relisting this with a suggestion to show, with actual evidence, that WP:NAMECHANGES actually applies. Dekimasuよ! 12:13, 13 June 2023 (UTC)

Relisting comment: Heavy support, but it's not grounded in solid policy. Only a few sources have been provided, and they seem to be mostly reporting on the name being officially changed. I do not think enough evidence has been provided to show WP:NAMECHANGES has been met. 58.107 says said sources exist, but those sources haven't been provided, so I can't verify the claim. Skarmory (talk • contribs) 05:23, 14 June 2023 (UTC)

I agree that so far most !votes haven't been grounded in policy or detailed reasoning. It seems to me that several of the news articles reporting the change seem to have immediately adopted the change in the article itself (for instance, [14] says "K’gari made headlines in 2020", despite the headlines referring to Fraser Island). But ideally we would have multiple news articles post-change that refer to K'gari specifically and not Fraser Island. StuartH (talk) 10:29, 14 June 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose for now - Although the official name has been changed, most people still refer to the island as Fraser Island. I would generally support such a change, however as per WP:COMMONNAME, it would be against Wikipedia's policies. Until K'gari becomes common use (similar to the Uluru/Ayers Rock debate back in the 1990s and early 2000s), the title should remain as Fraser Island. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Aydenholtonvlogs (talk • contribs) 02:53, 20 June 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Name change

Pretty much all news outlets now refer to K'gari (and many have done so for months or even years). I think that the above decision needs to be reviewed sooner rather than later. See Google search on news. Here is same search minus "change", to eliminate the articles reporting the name change. To me this clearly demonstrates that it is now the common name. Laterthanyouthink (talk) 11:28, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

In general, move requests based on a common name change do better if clear evidence is presented in the request at the outset. I would suggest a new request be based on that, rather than being based on an official name as the previous RM did along with early supports. CMD (talk) 12:26, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

I agree with CMD, this wasn't the best example of a move request given the reluctance to go through the proper processes and the misunderstanding by many of WP:OFFICIAL and WP:COMMONNAME. If there is strong support for the position that K'Gari is the common name (the secondary sources do appear to be shifting on this), it should be central to the move discussion and arguments along the line of "it's the official name" should be avoided as not being in line with wikipedia naming guidelines. Next step appears to be raising the issue on the closer's talk page. StuartH (talk) 01:44, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

@Laterthanyouthink: I wouldn't oppose a new RM here if you bring this info, but the discussion above was closed properly per what was discussed. This would hold up at move review, because this evidence was never brought up during the actual request. Feel free to start a new RM with this info if you want the change – that should also hopefully filter out some of the people who saw the official name changed and immediately went to change it on Wikipedia, leading to generally better policy-based arguments. Skarmory (talk • contribs) 23:03, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

Thanks to all. Will aim to do it in the next day or two. Laterthanyouthink (talk) 11:13, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

Requested move 3 July 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Not moved The evidence presented by the nominator above has evidently failed to convince any of the later participants. (closed by non-admin page mover) * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 01:59, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

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Fraser Island → K'gari – Per WP:COMMONNAME - see talk page for recent discussion. Laterthanyouthink (talk) 01:50, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

The previous discussion just has two google searches, one of K'gari (producing >9000 results for me) and one with "-change" (producing over 14,000[?] results for me). If I sub in "Fraser Island, I get 8,900 and about 300,000 respectively. I am not sure how these show common name. CMD (talk) 02:11, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose. The evidence presented above doesn't consider the commonality of the current title; when we do the equivalent search we receive 16,200 results, compared to the 15,500 results for the proposed title.

Further, WP:GOOGLELIMITS applies; results larger than approximately 500 are very rough estimates and cannot be relied on. Limiting our results to just news articles from the past year, we find approximately 50 results for K'Gari (once we have manually excluded results in languages other than English, and excluded results like this one where the island is not mentioned.) In comparison, we see approximately 200 results for Fraser Island when the same exclusions are applied.

Google Scholar provides a similar result; so far in 2023 there have been 100 scholarly works using Fraser Island, compared to 35 for K'Gari. The actual disparity is greater than that, as a partial manual review demonstrates that most results for K'Gari are for topics other than the island, while almost all results for Fraser Island are for the island.

Finally ngrams, while a little out of date, also present an overwhelming preference for the current title. BilledMammal (talk) 02:28, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose. While K'gari is now the official name, it does not seem to be the common name. It's also worth noting that the recent name change discussion from a month ago resulted in no change to the article title. michael60634 / talk / contributions 05:50, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Requested move 20 July 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: no consensus. This was a complicated RM, and there now seems to be a valid PAG-based reason to move, but the Google Scholar results still show Fraser Island as the most common name, preventing a consensus from forming. (closed by non-admin page mover) CLYDE ^{TALK TO ME}/_{STUFF DONE} 19:29, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

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Fraser Island → K'gari – Considering K'gari has now quickly been adopted as the island's common name after the official renaming in early June, I strongly believe it's time for the title of the article to be changed as per WP:COMMONNAME. The quick uptake of the island being called by what is now its official name is perhaps best illustrated by the recent media coverage of the latest dingo attack where outlets like The Guardian, SBS, Nine News, Seven News, The Courier-Mail, Brisbane Times and the ABC have all mentioned K'gari in article headlines without referring to its former name.[15][16][17][18][19][20][21] The name Fraser Island is used in some of the articles but only once and only to clarify that it had been K'gari's former name. It seems K'gari is now overwhelmingly the dominant name used by the media when referring to the island. 2001:8003:6C01:3100:54A1:EA4C:9797:542E (talk) 11:49, 20 July 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. BilledMammal (talk) 02:26, 31 July 2023 (UTC)— Relisting. —usernamekiran (talk) 16:59, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

• Support - was going to contest the closure above as too hasty, but didn't get around to it. Nobody calls it Fraser Island any more, at least in the media.

Laterthanyouthink (talk) 12:24, 20 July 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose, on both procedural and PAG grounds. On procedural grounds it is inappropriate to keep making move request after move request until one finally passes; the previous move request was closed just ten days before this one was opened, and this is the fourth move request in as many months. Because of this, I propose a twelve month moratorium on new move requests.

On PAG grounds, my !vote from the previous RM still applies:

The evidence presented above doesn't consider the commonality of the current title; when we do the equivalent search we receive 16,200 results, compared to the 15,500 results for the proposed title.

Further, WP:GOOGLELIMITS applies; results larger than approximately 500 are very rough estimates and cannot be relied on. Limiting our results to just news articles from the past year, we find approximately 50 results for K'Gari (once we have manually excluded results in languages other than English, and excluded results like this one where the island is not mentioned.) In comparison, we see approximately 200 results for Fraser Island when the same exclusions are applied.

Google Scholar provides a similar result; so far in 2023 there have been 100 scholarly works using Fraser Island, compared to 35 for K'Gari. The actual disparity is greater than that, as a partial manual review demonstrates that most results for K'Gari are for topics other than the island, while almost all results for Fraser Island are for the island.

Finally ngrams, while a little out of date, also present an overwhelming preference for the current title.

BilledMammal (talk) 02:23, 31 July 2023 (UTC)

• Comment - pinging users Wcornwell and Newimpartial, who also commented on BilledMammal's talk page regarding their earlier close this move. Turnagra (talk) 03:04, 31 July 2023 (UTC)
• Support - contrary to BilledMammal's previous assertion when they closed this move after a single day, there are actually grounds for a new request on this. The recent tragic dingo attack on K'gari saw a wide range of media coverage of the island - which almost universally used K'gari. Where "Fraser Island" was used, it was in the context of a line such as A "high-risk" dingo on K'Gari, formerly known as Fraser Island, was responsible for an attack that left a woman in hospital. Several of the results for Fraser Island are also either irrelevant or not reliable (take, for example, the line "She says it's so she can go to Fraser Island (or whatever the hell it's called now)", which is clearly a ringing endorsement of reliability). I'd also note that several of the sources which reference Fraser Island seem to be referring to the locality, which currently is still at that name as opposed to the island. At any rate, WP:NAMECHANGES says we should give more weight to sources published after the change, and these overwhelmingly refer to K'gari. Add to that international sources such as UNESCO and it's a no brainer.

As for the number of moves which have taken place, two of them had very limited engagement, and the third actually had a large majority of people in favour of the move. 11 users were in favour compared to just 3 opposed - one of which accused those in favour of the move as political activists who victim blame a rape victim ignoring the court records and trial records because it suits their ideology. Frankly, I think the bigger issue here isn't the number move requests, but that the 7 June discussion didn't result in a move.

To expand upon my reasoning for the move, K'gari would better adhere to the WP:CRITERIA we use for determining article titles than the current title:

Recognisability: I think both K'gari and Fraser Island are equally recognisable as the island in question, so this is admittedly even.

Naturalness: As the name overwhelmingly being used by recent sources to refer to the island, K'gari is far more likely to be what readers are likely to look or search for and that editors would naturally use to link to the article from other articles.

Precision: While this island is undoubtedly the primary for Fraser Island, I'd note that there is also a town of the same name and no fewer than 13 islands of the same name in Canada alone (not to mention this... interesting... sounding book). K'gari, on the other hand, unambiguously refers to this island.

Concision: The proposed title is less than half the length of the current one.

Consistency: Other Australian features which have had their indigenous names restored are based at their indigenous names, such as Uluru or Kata Tjuta.

Put all of this together and the only logical policy-based name for the article is K'gari. Turnagra (talk) 03:04, 31 July 2023 (UTC) (expanded 05:58, 8 August 2023 (UTC))

The 7 June discussion was correctly closed per policy, most of the supports were contrary to wider guidelines. This is the first of the four move requests to have an opening argument based on our naming policies. CMD (talk) 04:39, 31 July 2023 (UTC)

See this discussion on closer's talk page. BilledMammal (talk) 04:23, 1 August 2023 (UTC)

To reply to the arguments you added:

K'gari is far more likely to be what readers are likely to look or search for We can actually test for this with Google Trends. Google Trends shows us that readers are overwhelmingly likely to search for Fraser Island, in every Australian state and territory, as well as almost every country in the world. The only exceptions are Botswana and South Africa, but I suspect that is because there is a water park by the same name in South Africa.

From this, I think we can assume that it is also more likely to be what editors would naturally use to link to the article from other articles and what readers would recognize.

The existence of the water park is also technically a rebuttal to your precision argument, but I think the better rebuttal is that the primary topic for both titles is indisputably this topic, despite the existence of other entities by the same name, and thus both titles are equally precise.

Finally, regarding the consistency argument; we don't consistently use the aboriginal name for locations, we consistently use the common name. For example, the official name of Uluru is Uluru / Ayers Rock, but we just use Uluru as the common name. Similarly, the official name of Mount Wellington is kunanyi / Mount Wellington, but we just use Mount Wellington as the common name. BilledMammal (talk) 09:16, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

Being a primary topic doesn't determine precision - the language would almost certainly be the primary topic for English, but we still have the article for that at English language because just English on its own isn't precise enough. I did try earnestly to find anything other than the island by the name of K'gari and the water park didn't come up, so I apologise for that. Though on that, the dozens of different Fraser Islands in Canada are almost certainly contributing to the popularity of that search term there. As for the rest of your comment, I'd also point out that I said nothing about the official name, you appear to be conflating different things. Turnagra (talk) 10:07, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

I'd also point out that I said nothing about the official name, you appear to be conflating different things. Apologies, when you said Australian features which have had their indigenous names restored I assumed that "restored" meant "included in or made the official name". Can you clarify what you meant?

I did try earnestly to find anything other than the island by the name of K'gari and the water park didn't come up, so I apologise for that. It's an easy mistake to make; I wouldn't have found it if I didn't already have a hint that something existed in that region.

Regarding the rest of your comment; being the primary topic is usually enough to satisfy precision (for example, Melbourne, London, Auckland, Berlin, and many others). The different Fraser Islands are likely contributing to it, but I doubt their contribution amounts to much (and certainly not enough to overcome the 22:1 preference); only one is significant enough to have a Wikipedia article, and even that one appears to be unremarkable. BilledMammal (talk) 10:28, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

• Neutral on name change; Oppose 12 month moratorium on change requests - thank you, BilledMammal, for replacing your prior SUPERVOTE with an Oppose !vote. However, I am not convinced by your evidence, as my understanding of place name changes, where the references are fairly evenly divided, is that barring a good reason we tend on enwiki to use the official name (where the sources clearly indicate one). This doesn't appear to be a case like Czechia, where there continues to be a strong preference within sources to retain the earlier against the more recent official name. So while I lean towards a change, I'm not sufficiently convinced in sustained use of the name to !vote decisively on the matter. However, I am sufficiently convinced of the grounds for potential change that, should this RM be unsuccessful, it would be quite appropriate to have one or more additional RM proceedings over the next 12 months as patterns form in the recent evidence.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Newimpartial (talk • contribs) 13:02, 31 July 2023 (UTC)

  My close wasn't a supervote - I wasn't assessing consensus - it was just a procedural close due to an RM identical to several prior RM's being opened ten days after the prior one had closed, in line with relatively common practice. When asked, I reopened the discussion. BilledMammal (talk) 04:21, 1 August 2023 (UTC)

  I think I understand what a "procedural close" is, and what an "IAR close" is, but I can't really wrap my head around what a procedural IAR close would be, or why it would be in line with community norms or the expectations placed on discussion closers.

extended content

I would also point to your comment in which you "offered" to reopen - Further, if this one does go forward I'm going to push for a one year moratorium; a four move requests in such a short period is verging on disruptive, five certainly would be - seems at the very least ingracious and possibly an attempt to unduly influence the actions of other editors on what should have been a purely procedural matter. It is fine to have opinions about a discussion, and it is fine to close discussions procedurally, but it isn't really OK to attempt to enact one's own opinions while presenting one's actions as purely procedural.

Newimpartial (talk) 17:25, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

Procedural because it wasn’t an attempt to assess consensus, just an attempt to avoid wasting communities time with a proposal that had been rejected ten days prior, and IAR because I was involved. I don’t understand what point you are trying to make with your extended content. BilledMammal (talk) 00:28, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose. We go by the most common English name, not the official name, for article titles. And it definitely seems to be inappropriate to open a new RM discussion so soon. Rreagan007 (talk) 22:09, 31 July 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose. This proposal has been defeated twice in two months. Give it a rest. -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:58, 1 August 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose - Best we stick with the most common english language name. GoodDay (talk) 21:52, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

  Aren't we supposed to use the most frequently used name in English-language sources, rather than the most common english name? For all I know, this might be the cruz of the issue. Newimpartial (talk) 22:39, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

  Indeed. WP:UE talks about how it should be the name used in English language sources, not necessarily a name with English origins. We use Uluru and Kata Tjuta - hell, even Wollongong - for that exact reason. The linguistic origins of the name have absolutely no bearing on this discussion. Turnagra (talk) 05:58, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

• Comment @Turnagra, Rreagan007, Necrothesp, and GoodDay: Newimpartial has commented on the moratorium proposal; do the four of you have any opinions on it? BilledMammal (talk) 00:28, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

Moratorium is acceptable, given the frequency of RFCs. GoodDay (talk) 00:31, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

Apologies, I thought I'd covered this earlier. While I'm sympathetic to those who are complaining about the number of move requests, I think arbitrary moratoriums on a particular topic are arguably even worse. Opening a move request for something like this should be predicated on new information or changing usage, rather than how many requests have previously happened. In this case, the move request followed a range of news articles which almost exclusively referred to the island as K'gari, which is a pretty solid indication that usage has changed and there are grounds to move the article. I'd be happy for move requests such as the one from 3 July where there's no backing info to be closed early by an uninvolved editor if a discussion hasn't started, but I don't think a moratorium is conducive to ensuring the article follows policy. Rather, it could result in wikipedia increasingly being out of step with wider usage because of an arbitrary limit. Turnagra (talk) 05:58, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

• Support - Hi everyone, I am very new to Wikipedia editing and therefore the procedures, but am a resident of the Fraser Coast, frequent visitor to K'gari, and involved with local tourism and media as well as the local indigenous community, the Butchulla People. The Queensland Government officially changed the name of the Island on the 7th June, 2023. This ended the previous dual naming convention of K'gari / Fraser Island and is the final stage of a process commenced in 2011. As a local I can confirm that the island is primarily referred to as K'gari (yes, some older residents still refer to it as Fraser), and is exclusively referred to as K'gari in local & state government departments, and the media.

While the name change is official, Tourism & Events Queensland are running a campaign and providing industry support to assist with international awareness of the name change (Fraser Island's name has changed to K'gari) (About the name change).

I apologise if my response doesn't fit proper protocols, I do have supporting links/references and also apologise (in advance) if I have attached/referenced them incorrectly. I would welcome any feedback, constructive criticism and assitance in supporting my case/position. I also have emails and other supporting documents which support the correct titling of K'gari and believe that the dual naming convention which was previously in place skews google search results and would not provide a true indication of the present common name, but as mentioned above, I am a beginner in terms of editing/proposing change/etc. to wikipedia. That Dan Guy78 (talk) 05:11, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

Support — in addition to online materials I'm seeing being more than adequate, I began exploring the region in April and have now lived here since June. K'Gari was the common name people were using routinely the whole time, so much so that it surprised me to hear it wasn't then yet the legally recognised name. Now that it is, this article title should be changed. Qld legal names have been insisted on routinely for other towns nearby, even when common use names were different (see Seventeen Seventy, for example). Yet we're refusing now the legally recognised name, in increasingly common use, because why? Are we going to continue skirting around that this name has black origins and our older local white population were raised in an era when public education on black cultures was non-existent or poor? Editors tend to skew older. Each must ask themselves genuinely to what extent their implicit biases may be interacting with which aspects of this debate their minds are more drawn to. Now excuse me, I've gotta go switch off the radio, which has just played yet another boat cruise ad enticing tourists to come and explore K'Gari (and by no name other). Koilectiv (talk) 10:17, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Name origin, spearing, and burning

@Kerry Raymond: In July, you reverted some of my edits to:

1. Restore the claim that Captain Fraser was killed by an aboriginal spear
2. Give prominence to the claim that it was named after Captain Fraser, not Eliza Fraser
3. Add the claim that Mr Brown was burned

These edits appear to be based on two sources; the name origin appears to be based on Queensland Government place name database. However, news sources describe the island as being named after his wife, Eliza Fraser (SBS, ABC, the Guardian). In line with WP:DUE, I think we should follow the description in the clear majority of reliable sources.

The claims about the spearing and the burning appear to be based on an 1836 source you added in the same edit; I am not convinced this is a reliable source (It makes statements like In eight days from this brutal affair, the same cannibals also killed Mr. Brown, the chief officer, by holding fire-brands to his legs, and so burning him upwards!), and it appears also appears to be a primary source.

I don't think we should be adding either of these claims without reliable sources to base them on. BilledMammal (talk) 20:38, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

The QPN is the official place naming database. It is the reliable source. The Qld Govt has been tracking their place namess for many decades, probably longer than the ABC or SBS have (sadly journalists today are more interested in click bait than fact checks, since anyone can check the QPN online). See also [22]. The 1836 source is not primary as it is a newspaper report of the interview with the two survivors. It is also the earliest report that I can find of the events. While it seems there is no doubt that Eliza Fraser may have embellished her story as the years went on as it appears that telling her story was her source of income, there is no such claims of embellishment about Mr Baxter the second mate. The 1836 source are what they said immediately after being rescued. Obviously it represents events as they perceived them which may be capable of misinterpretation. For example, was the work Eliza was asked to perform treating her as a slave or normal tasks being performed by the Aboriginal women? However, it seems difficult to misinterpret that James Fraser was speared even if we do not know what took place before that. Had James Fraser done something that would legitimise his being speared in the minds of the Aboriginal people? Perhaps he had, but we don't just know. I did not include the quote about the death of the first mate as it was not clear if either Baxter or Eliza witnessed this or whether that is what they surmised had happened. Also the use of the "cannibals" is questionable in that there is no evidence of cannibalism taking place (neither Baxter nor Eliza mentioned it occurring). However, it is quite feasible that Baxter and Eliza would have referred to the Aboriginal people as cannibals because James Fraser insisted on travelling by boat south as long as he could in the small boats as he was afraid that to go directly to shore because he had heard the Aboriginal people in the area were cannibals, so presumably his belief the Aboriginal people were cannibals was passed onto Baxter and Eliza. Given that Eliza gave birth to their baby in that small boat and the baby drowned as it was full of water supports that they held that belief, otherwise surely James Fraser would have wanted his wife to give birth more safely on-shore. I don't see how we can omit the report of the two survivors immediately after rescue in favour of sources created nearly 200 years later, which, in the case of the SBS, were linked to publicising the NITV program they had just made. Perhaps for NPOV we should include the full 1836 report and then we can add all the more recent explanations for why those survivors may have lied or misinterpreted events. Then leave it for the reader to decide. Kerry (talk) 00:35, 4 September 2023 (UTC)

The QPN is the official place naming database. It is the reliable source. It's a reliable source, but that doesn't mean it is the only reliable source. If every other says differently - and so far, it seems they do - we follow those other sources.

The 1836 source is not primary as it is a newspaper report of the interview with the two survivors. It's a primary source because it is the unaltered account of the events from Baxter; Since writing the above, we have received the following memorandum from the second mate of the Stirling Castle, who has promised us the full particulars of the wreck, and the miseries he and the rest endured while in the hands of the savages.

We shouldn't be interpreting primary sources, particularly since the story has been disputed. Do you have any modern sources for these claims? BilledMammal (talk) 03:32, 4 September 2023 (UTC)

Sounds like it'd be a lot simpler if we just used K'gari!

All joking aside, I'll preface this by saying that I haven't looked into this properly yet, but I'd be wary of leaning too much on media sources for the origin of the name. While media are generally reliable, I feel like for something like this they could be prone to referencing a legend about the name's origin without actually fact checking its accuracy since it'd likely be a reasonably minor part of the story (as indeed it is in the articles you linked). In comparison, looking into the origins of place names is a pretty core part of what the QPN's role is, so I'd be inclined to take their word over a greater number of media sources. The easier, and arguably better, approach would of course just to say that the etymology of the name is unclear and present the variety of different explanations for its origin.

As for points 1 and 3, I haven't investigated enough to have strong feelings either way, but I would note that being from the time doesn't automatically make something a primary source. Turnagra (talk) 05:39, 4 September 2023 (UTC)

I've removed the claims about spearing and burning; without a reliable and non-primary source we cannot include them. For now, I've left the claim about the origin of the name, but unless we can find more reliable sources that support the claim that it was named after Captain Fraser we will need to change it; to many sources claim it was named after Eliza Fraser and too few claim it was named after Captain Fraser. BilledMammal (talk) 23:37, 7 September 2023 (UTC)

Spelling of K'gari

I'm just curious as I've found no information myself on the reason for the "k'" in the spelling. According to the Wikipedia page for the Gubbi Gubbi language, the Badjala dialect, from which the name K'gari originates, has the phoneme /ɡ/ and the phoneme /kː/ and presumably one of them is the phoneme that begins this word. It does not state the exact phonetic realisation of either of these in an initial position. Is "k'g" the usual transcription of either one of these phonemes or is this just a quirk of transcription that occurred in this word when a native English speaker impressionistically wrote down what they thought they heard when a Badjala speaker said the name? Just curious if anyone has any more information about it. 120.22.162.34 (talk) 13:06, 9 September 2023 (UTC)