Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Biography

clarification on birth and death dates guideline

I am trying to figure out what this paragraph (in the project page, here) means:

Beyond the first paragraph of the lead section, birth and death details should only be included after a name if there is special contextual relevance. Abbreviations like b. and d. can be used, if needed, when space is limited (e.g., in a table) and when used repetitively (e.g., in a list of people).

Another editor has apparently interpreted this to mean that birth and death dates of people mentioned in an article should not be included; that editor made this [edit] to remove birth and death dates of the subject's children. I asked them about this, and they agreed that we could use some clarification here.

So: if an article's subject has a non-notable child, should the birth and death dates of the child be given? The MOS paragraph above seems to suggest the the birth and death dates should not be given (though I do not know what "special contextual relevance" means...what does that mean?). I see no reason why the birth and death dates should not be included, as this is useful information not provided in any other way in these articles (and there are many, many articles that do list the birth and death dates of notable peoples' children). Perhaps the issue is the word "details": are birth and death details different from birth and death dates (are dates a possible part of details?)? Is the MOS saying that dates are okay, but more "detail" than dates are not? I look forward to hearing your thoughts on this. Cheers! Doctormatt (talk) 03:01, 10 June 2021 (UTC)

I think children count as "special contextual relevance". I would interpret this clause as meaning birth and death dates should not be included for most people mentioned in an article. Children, spouses, and maybe parents, would be an exception. -- Necrothesp (talk) 10:30, 10 June 2021 (UTC)

Doctormatt, I won't pass judgement on the diff you cite, because the non-notables in question are deceased and no longer minors. But in general, we do not reproduce the birthdates or exact names of non-notable minor children, in accordance with WP:BLPNAME and WP:CHILDPROTECT. This usually applies to Hollywood celebrities announcing their pregnancy and welcoming their new babies. Elizium23 (talk) 12:32, 10 June 2021 (UTC)

I am still unsure what to do here. Can someone say what the intent of the paragraph referenced in my first post is? Why are birth and death dates not okay to include for most people? If a non-minor person does not have a wikipedia article, but they are mentioned in an article, what is the harm in indicating when they were born and died? This seems like helpful information for specifying persons in the more distant past, especially, since many people have the same names. Further, does anyone else support the claim that "special contextual relevance" applies to children? Should I edit the project page to make that clear? If someone could comment on the specific [edit] mentioned above, that would be awesome. I look forward to hearing your thoughts. Doctormatt (talk) 03:51, 15 June 2021 (UTC)

Why are birth and death dates not okay to include for most people?: Simply, WP:NOTEVERYTHING. Why would should it be included beyond cases with "special contextual relevance"? As for the diff, have you discussed this with the other editor?—Bagumba (talk) 04:27, 15 June 2021 (UTC)

Yes, I discussed [[1]] this with the other editor. As to your comment regarding "special contextual relevance", I still have no idea what people think this means: this phrase seems much too vague to be helpful in a MOS. As I wrote above, birth and death dates can be useful, for example, for specifying a historical person since names are not unique (and neither are birth and death years, but they help narrow things down). Doctormatt (talk) 05:03, 15 June 2021 (UTC)

A lot of times it's intentionally vague because 1) some people don't like being over-prescriptive 2) "relevance" can vary by topic and it's left to the individual page editors. The two editors above have said it seems reasonable for adult children. Do you have other areas of concern?—Bagumba (talk) 06:36, 15 June 2021 (UTC)

Okay, I have updated the paragraph in the MOS to add the following sentence: "For example, it is generally acceptable to give such details after the names of parents, spouses, siblings and adult children of an article's subject.". Cheers! Doctormatt (talk) 03:52, 16 June 2021 (UTC)

Sorry but I have reverted because I think it needs further discussion. Just because the subject of the article is "a public figure" and thus (apparently) open season for comment and risk of impersonation, that cannot be assumed to apply equally to the subject's relatives. It cannot be assumed that they have the same level of protection. There are serious cases of fraud where banks have been deceived by well-briefed scammers who have date and place of birth, pet names, etc. Whereas they might be extra careful when dealing with a well-known figure, that is much less likely if the person is not well known. Articles should say that the subject has N children, going into the personal details of those children is mere prurience. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 16:00, 16 June 2021 (UTC)

Birth/death dates for relatives are just trivia and usually not relevant to the topic. "Special contextual relevance" is vague but I suspect if you do not have a special reason to include such dates then then are not relevant. If a child, who would have taken over a company, died before the parent, then there is relevance. But ordinarily not. MB 16:11, 16 June 2021 (UTC)

Although years (or full dates) of births and deaths of parents and children appear in many biographies on Wikipedia, I don't see that they contribute significant information about the subjects of the articles. If a death in the family caused a change in career or something similar, that would be worthy of mention beyond just a parenthetical insertion, but I see no point in routine inclusion of such facts.Eddie Blick (talk) 16:47, 16 June 2021 (UTC)

Fyodor Dostoevsky lists birth and death years of his children (in the infobox!), as well as those of his siblings. Leo Tolstoy has an impressive bulleted list of 13 of his children, each with birth and death years listed. Patrick Brontë lists birth and death years for all of his children, in the infobox and in the Family section. Leon Trotsky lists birth and death years of his parents and his children. Louise Taft lists the birth and death years of her parents. Am I to understand that some editors think these birth and death details should be removed from these articles, and that this is based on their interpretation of this MOS? I am surprised that this historically useful information is considered not worthy of inclusion in a biography. I am not a historian; I would love to hear from one on these points. Doctormatt (talk) 21:09, 16 June 2021 (UTC)

In the examples you quote, the people concerned are all dead so the question of "right to a private life" doesn't arise. Otherwise, the strictest interpretation of WP:BLP should apply. Maybe people need to recall WP:NOTATABLOID? Even when the subject has displayed poor judgement in releasing the information concerned, we should still show restraint. I can't remember which celebrity it was who admitted that her 15-year old daughter had "banned her from posting any more pictures without her permission". Relatives are not just appendages like a car or a house, they are individual people who have a right to be left alone unless they personally choose the tabloid glare. Wikipedia can hardly deprecate the Daily Mail if we behave like the Daily Mail. If in doubt, leave it out! --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 08:21, 17 June 2021 (UTC)

Thanks, John. The edit ([[2]]) that started this conversation involved dead people as well. So, could we update the MOS to say that birth and death dates may be added for dead children, parents, etc., and add a reminder that, for living people, WP:BLP applies? I think this would be pretty clear guidance. Doctormatt (talk) 18:50, 17 June 2021 (UTC)

I don't see any consensus for a change in this discussion. Most editors are saying such details are rarely relevant and/or that the guideline should remain vague. DrKay (talk) 19:14, 17 June 2021 (UTC)

I agree with others that these details are rarely relevant, and I don't think that the MOS should not be updated to suggest this type of information should be routinely included. – wallyfromdilbert (talk) 19:35, 17 June 2021 (UTC)

RfC for CONTEXTBIO and its implications

If a person has expressed they are not a citizen of a country, and that is sourced, should they still be called a citizen in the lead even when they are only a permanent resident? Essentially, should permanent resident be removed from this criteria so as to not confuse anyone? It currently says, The opening paragraph should usually provide context for the activities that made the person notable. In most modern-day cases, this will be the country, region, or territory, where the person is a citizen, national, or permanent resident; or, if the person is notable mainly for past events, where the person was a citizen, national, or permanent resident when the person became notable. Trillfendi (talk) 00:00, 11 June 2021 (UTC)

We shouldn't imply that they are a citizen if they are not. It could be worded that they are a citizen of X but based in Y. For example, a P.R.permanent resident in the U.S. should not be called "American". Is there a specific example you had in mind?—Bagumba (talk) 01:22, 11 June 2021 (UTC)

Bagumba, just wanted to note that Puerto Ricans are Americans with United States citizenship from birth. – wallyfromdilbert (talk) 01:26, 11 June 2021 (UTC)

Oops, I meant PR as in permanent resident. Corrected.—Bagumba (talk) 01:30, 11 June 2021 (UTC)

It seems to be a common refrain especially for British people who moved to America at a young age (or in the case of Gillian Anderson, vice versa) such as Jodie Turner-Smith, 21 Savage and the late MF Doom. I believe British-American is too nebulous for that. Or like Malin Åkerman who was born in Sweden and raised in Canada but was never a citizen there, for a long time her lead said Swedish-Canadian. I think based in [country] avoids any confusion. Trillfendi (talk) 03:03, 11 June 2021 (UTC)

MOS:OPENPARABIO says (my emphasis added): The first sentence should usually state .... It it can't be easily stated in the lead sentence, there is leeway to handle with more than a simple sentence in the lead paragraph.—Bagumba (talk) 07:50, 11 June 2021 (UTC)

I think "permanent resident" is useful to have in the guideline for those individuals who are not citizens of a country but are most closely associated with that country because they now live there permanently, such as by using the "based in" wording suggested by Bagumba. – wallyfromdilbert (talk) 01:43, 11 June 2021 (UTC)

@Bagumba and Wallyfromdilbert: They asked this with Jodie Turner-Smith in mind. She was born in the UK and immigrated to the US sometime during her childhood (can't find a reliable source giving her age, but she attended high school there), began her career as an actress and model in American projects, and still resides in the US. I think almost all sources refer to her as British or British-born, and she isn't an American citizen. There was some back-and-forth editing on calling her British or American which lead to a short discussion on her article's talk page. Abbyjjjj96 (talk) 03:06, 11 June 2021 (UTC)

So the specific question is whether a person who is British-born and an American permanent resident should be referred to as "British-American" or just "British"? And should this depend on whether they have specifically stated they are "not American"? Dicklyon (talk) 03:23, 11 June 2021 (UTC)

Jodie-Turner Smith looks like a situation where simply "British" would be appropriate in the lead sentence since that is how most sources appear to refer to her, and she also says she is "not American" in one of the sources in the article [3]. I think her residence in the United States would still be relevant for the lead paragraph though. However, "British-born" seems a little strange for someone who is still British, especially when it is cited to an article that simply calls her "a British actor" in its actual body copy. I generally favor using citizenship as the country/location before the person's occupations/notable roles in the lead sentence because that is clear guidance that helps avoid these situations, but I think that there are definitely individuals who should have their country of residence in the lead paragraph, even if not in the first sentence (and maybe a very small number who should have it in their first sentence, like MF Doom). I think there is a little confusion with MOS:OPENPARABIO discussing the "first sentence" and MOS:CONTEXTBIO discussing the "opening paragraph". I don't know if the guidance could be adjusted to make this clearer. In MOS:OPENPARABIO, it also has "Context (location, nationality, etc.)", and maybe we should remove "location" from there to make the "first sentence" guidance clearer. – wallyfromdilbert (talk) 03:36, 11 June 2021 (UTC)

Agree that if a person's home country is relevant to the lead, a Briton should generally be called plain "British" and not "British-born".—Bagumba (talk) 03:54, 11 June 2021 (UTC)

What makes Turner-Smith's home country relevant to the lead? The notes in the code of Mila Kunis and Nina Dobrev's articles say not to include their birth country. And while those two are both citizens of the country they later moved to, mos:contextbio says "citizen, national, or permanent resident". Abbyjjjj96 (talk) 04:07, 11 June 2021 (UTC)

Abbyjjjj96, the articles on both Mila Kunis and Nina Dobrev do mention where they were born, and both even do so in the second sentence of the article. The MOS section you mention is about the "opening paragraph" and not just the lead sentence. As for Jodie Turner-Smith, she is a British citizen and not an American citizen, and it seems like the overwhelming amount of sources refer to her as a "British actor" or "British actress", while only a small amount refer to her as "American". She also considers herself British and not American. Mila Kunis and Nina Dobrev are not comparable situations to her. – wallyfromdilbert (talk) 04:17, 11 June 2021 (UTC)

I meant the first sentence re. Kunis and Dobrev. MOS:OPENPARABIO says the first sentence should usually state: "Context (location, nationality, etc.) for the activities that made the person notable." She became notable in American projects, and it's not like she immigrated to the US as an adult; she has been based there since she was a child. Abbyjjjj96 (talk) 05:39, 11 June 2021 (UTC)

Turner-Smith's lead sentence has "based in the United States", which establishes location. I don't see an issue with the guideline.—Bagumba (talk) 07:34, 11 June 2021 (UTC)

What makes Turner-Smith's home country relevant to the lead?: If that was a response to my comment, I have no opinion on that specific bio. My comment was "if a person's home country is relevant ...", which I assumed it was because the lead already had "is a British-born ..."—Bagumba (talk) 07:34, 11 June 2021 (UTC)

For Wikipedia consistency, I think mention of "American" in the lead sentence should be reserved for citizens (or occasionally for those with American heritage—MOS:ETHNICITY: "Ethnicity ... should generally not be in the lead unless it is relevant to the subject's notability). I get calling her an "American actress" in the context of her presumably only doing American movies, but it's at best ambiguous and at worst misleading based on Wikipedia lead convention. Alternatives like "based in the United States", "American movies", etc. are preferable.—Bagumba (talk) 03:49, 11 June 2021 (UTC)

We still also still have the problem which has gone on for years across Wikipedia on nationality when it comes to British citizens due to the fact British citizens articles are treated differently to every other nationality. It is meant to be nationality in the introduction and yet British which is the actual legal nationality, often doesnt get mentioned, with only English, Scottish, Welsh or Northern Irish getting used. It would help if there was a clear policy that British citizens should always be stated as British citizens. This isnt something people can pick and choose on a whim. They are either British citizens or they are not. All British citizens, wherever they live now and what ever part of the UK they are from, should be described as British in the introduction or at the very least in the infobox. RWB2020 (talk) 11:09, 12 June 2021 (UTC)

I think local consensus on which term to use is the most appropriate in those situations, and I wouldn't agree with a strict rule for UK nationalities (or other situations where citizenship and nationality may differ, such as Puerto Rico). – wallyfromdilbert (talk) 17:31, 12 June 2021 (UTC)

The choices being commented in this RfC seem to imply that including people's citizenship/nationality should be a thing that is normally done on articles. I think we need to reconsider that assumption tbh. A lot of people are opposed to the entire concept that people should be classified by government. Especially if their notability has nothing to do with government/citizenship at all. So the clear answer to the specific article that this RfC arises from is to not include citizenship/nationality information for a subject that has stated that they are not of that nationality, as well as to reconsider the inclusion of such info in the lede for others. 06:31, 14 June 2021 (UTC) TOA The owner of all ☑️

I also think that the American concept (where "X-ian" indicates origin/ethnicity rather than nationality) should prevail over the foreign concept where "X-ian" indicates citizenship/nationality, although I don't think Wikipedia would support that convention. 06:33, 14 June 2021 (UTC) TOA The owner of all ☑️

I disgree that it is an American English concept. Yao Ming was not referred to as an American basketball player when he played in the United States. In the case of Wikipedia, the de facto convention is that it specifically refers to nationality in the lead sentence.—Bagumba (talk) 07:07, 14 June 2021 (UTC)

Yao was never American in either the American sense or non-American sense of the term (i.e. not by nationality and not by origin). 14:23, 15 June 2021 (UTC) TOA The owner of all ☑️

Then I misunderstood your apparent suggestion to ignore citizenship/nationality, when the RFC was inspired by a British citizen who lives and works in the U.S.—Bagumba (talk) 14:53, 15 June 2021 (UTC)

To clarify, for a subject like J. Smith whose nationality is not relevant to their notability, it does not need to be stated in the lead (Nor does their residence). I would consider nationality relevant only for people such as public officials or if their notability arises from nationality-related issues. 17:51, 15 June 2021 (UTC) TOA The owner of all ☑️

MOS:OPENPARABIO says to "usually" state one's nationality in the first sentence. When it doesn't make sense, don't include it.—Bagumba (talk) 06:44, 14 June 2021 (UTC)

At this point, it would be jarring for me to find a biography that didn't mention nationality in the usual place, and I expect it would be sufficiently jarring for other editors that they would clamor to put it in. I would say that its near-universal presence establishes consensus for universal inclusion. Elizium23 (talk) 06:52, 14 June 2021 (UTC)

Agree that it should be rare to exclude. I don't recall which pages, but the debate is usually a person who holds citizenship in multiple countries and summarizing in one sentence is problematic.—Bagumba (talk) 07:14, 14 June 2021 (UTC)

There are both British and Americans living and working in places all over the world (Hong Kong, Singapore, Sydney, Dubai...take your pick) and no-one would ever think to question that they aren’t still British or American, even if they’ve been there for years. But there does seem to be something mysterious about living and working as an expat in America that has editors suddenly falling over themselves to challenge a lead sentence reference to their nationality. MapReader (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 18:26, 15 June 2021‎ (UTC) I think as others have pointed out we are emphasising the legal/governmental element too much here. For example many, many UK bio articles start with "Welsh/Scottish/English" even though legally none of that exists only "British" does iirc. How do reliable sources describe the person in question, seems more of an article-by-article basis, etc. Regards  Spy-cicle💥  ^Talk? 17:55, 20 June 2021 (UTC)

Questions about MOS:BIRTHNAME

• Okay, thus I'm recently working on the late Russian Empire/early Soviet Union biographies and I wonder one thing. MOS:BIRTHNAME says "While the article title should generally be the name by which the subject is most commonly known, the subject's full name, if known, should usually be given in the lead sentence (including middle names, if known, or middle initials). Many cultures have a tradition of not using the full name of a person in everyday reference, but the article should start with the complete version in most cases." shouldn't this also apply to the body? MOS:LEAD says "The lead should stand on its own as a concise overview of the article's topic. It should identify the topic, establish context, explain why the topic is notable, and summarize the most important points, including any prominent controversies." Looks important to me why isn't this included in MOS:BIRTHNAME?
• Since I am working on the former Russian Empire-related articles the middle name is replaced with patronymics but does that count as part of their full names? If so does this also applies to ethnic groups like the Mongolians who use clan names? I got confused when I was working on those topics because almost all of the articles at the moment don't mention the patronymic and MOS:BIRTHNAME isn't helping me currently. I hope I can get some answers here. Cheers. CPA-5 (talk) 08:48, 14 June 2021 (UTC)
  • Just to give an uneducated opinion from the sidelines, I suggest that wp:COMMONNAME also applies. Taking President Putin as a for-example, the article is called Vladimir Putin (as he is generally known), he is introduced in the opening sentence as Vladimir Vladimirovich Putin and his patronymic is mentioned just that once in the lead, once more in the first sentence of #Early life, then nowhere else. It seems that this is the norm: his father is mentioned once out of respect then need not be mentioned again (unless disambiguation is needed). So if the Putin example is a good one, you only need to mention the patronymic once more in the body: the childhood section seems ideal. The Joseph Stalin article gives the name Joseph Vissarionovich Stalin just once (in the lead) but then that wasn't really his name at birth. V.I. Lenin is just as complicated. Caution: I write as someone who got hopelessly confused by the multiple names for the same few people in War and Peace and never finished it! So at best this opinion is to help your analysis rather than to give a definitive answer. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 19:04, 20 June 2021 (UTC)

Your feedback would be welcome at the James Barry Rfc

There is currently an Rfc going on at Talk:James Barry (surgeon)#Request for comment: Pronouns attempting to determine what pronouns to use for James Barry (surgeon), and for which MOS:GENDERID plays an important role. Your feedback at the discussion would be welcome. Mathglot (talk) 00:04, 18 June 2021 (UTC)

Borderline cases and dead names

I posted this Talk:Laurel Hubbard#Sourcing and pronouns and just wanted to check that my understanding is correct i.e. if it cannot be established that Hubbard is notable under her dead name, whether via GNG of sources prior to her transitioning or a subject specific guideline, the dead name should be excluded?

I also bring this up because it occurred to me while writing that it's probable we will mention some biographical details related to her career for which she is notable i.e. weightlifting such as records she achieved before transitioning and maybe will be using source from before she transitioned but possibly shouldn't be mentioning the name those achievements were under. Hopefully we can find more recent sources, but I'm not sure if this is guaranteed. This is potentially likely to be not uncommon with sports people, but I guess would arise in other cases. E.g. the long discussion above arises mostly from Elliot Page, but it seems we may also have actors who played minor roles prior to transitioning, not enough to make them notable but enough to mention in the article.

The long discussion above is a mess so I can't be bothered looking at it but are we developing guidance on how to handle these cases? AFAICT the above discussion is focused on cases where the subject was notable so we do mention the dead name somewhere in our article. But as indicated earlier, it strikes me with cases where the subject wasn't notable, we could have a situation where we are using sources prior to the subject transitioning which only mention the dead name but which won't be mentioned anywhere in the article. So there may be a risk of some confusion to readers when checking out the sources. (I'm aware that technically there is always going to be some risk since there's no guarantee readers are going to read the whole article carefully. And that part of the reason for the discussion above is how we handle such issues while respecting subjects.)

Also and this is probably less likely to arise with actors or sports people but it strikes me in cases with academics and others of that sort, transitioning may have little or no impact on their career. And especially in cases of WP:GNG rather than WP:PROF or something, it may be there's no clear date when you can say they became notable. Do we have guidance on how to handle these cases?

Nil Einne (talk) 08:05, 21 June 2021 (UTC)

External opinions needed on Augustus

Hi. This very Wikipedia's Manual of Style gives Augustus as an example of article whose first sentence should start with only the one name by which he is most famous: "Augustus (63 BC – 14 AD) was a Roman emperor ....". In the page Augustus, on the other hand, one user insists on adding "Caesar" as the first word of the article. Discussion opened by said user in the talk page has led another user to disagree with him and state that using simply "Augustus" is the best option. As he insists on adding "Caesar", I think third opinions would be very much appreciated on the issue. Thanks in advance. Dan Palraz (talk) 15:38, 27 June 2021 (UTC)

Foreign langage

Hi, i wanted to ask since its not specified here, in what case should we use foreign langage for someone's name ? Indira333 (talk) 12:40, 29 June 2021 (UTC)

We use whatever a majority of English language reliable sources use when discussing the person. So, if they use an anglicized version of the name, so do we… but if they use a “foreign language” version, we do too.

Examples: John Cabot, not “Giovanni Caboto”…

but Johan Sebastian Bach, not “John Sebastian Bach”. Blueboar (talk) 12:53, 29 June 2021 (UTC)

For example 'Huda kattan', she was born in the Us but in her lead sentence her name is translated in arab, is it correct or wrong ? Indira333 (talk) 13:04, 29 June 2021 (UTC)

I will rewrite my question. In what cases should we translate someone's name in a foreign langage ? Huda Kattan is American and was born in the Us, but in the lead sentence of her bio, her name is translated in Arab, is it correct ? Should we always do like that ? Indira333 (talk) 13:24, 29 June 2021 (UTC)

NAME TRANSLATION in a foreign langage.

Hi, In what cases should we translate someone's name in a foreign langage ? Huda Kattan is American and was born in the Us, but in the lead sentence of her bio, her name is translated in Arab, is it correct ? Should we always do like that ? Indira333 (talk) 14:38, 29 June 2021 (UTC)

Ah… you are asking about whether we should give a parenthetical translation in the lead sentence. It isn’t “wrong”… but it isn’t always necessary or appropriate. Translations like this are usually given when the subject is primarily known outside the English speaking world (in this case it would be if the subject is primarily known in the Arab speaking world). The idea is to help readers who have come across the name in a non-English script/language know that they have found the correct English language article.

So, the question is: how well known is this person (an American) in the Arabic speaking world? I don’t know the answer to that. Blueboar (talk) 15:15, 29 June 2021 (UTC)

Yes that's what i was asking, thank you ! Indira333 (talk) 15:46, 29 June 2021 (UTC)

Capitalization of Secretary-general/Secretary-General?

The MoS says "Hyphenation and compounds: When hyphenated and capitalized, e.g. Vice-president (as it is usually spelled in contexts other than US politics), the element after the hyphen is not capitalized." So "Secretary-general" when capitalization is called for, right? But "Secretary-General" outnumbers "Secretary-general" 44 to 1. I hesitate to start fixing 11,000 articles, expecting a lot of pushback. Why is the MoS so out of line with actual usage? Chris the speller ^yack 03:17, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

No idea. But in this instance it is clear that capitalising both elements is the norm, especially when prefixing a name. It would look very weird otherwise (e.g. Lieutenant-general Sir John Smith). However, when not prefixing a name things are not so clear-cut. In the past it was more common to only capitalise the first element than it is today (although even then, very rarely when prefixing a name). -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:50, 13 July 2021 (UTC)

RfC for use of peerage titles in lists and tables

Comment is invited as to whether the following established practice is compatible with guidelines and WP:MOS. Across a number of UK government (especially ministry lists such as First Johnson ministry) and parliament articles, peers are referred to in lists and tables by their full formal style and title, rather than by name. (See Talk:First Johnson ministry#MOS for listing current peers; and abortive RfC attempt at Talk:House of Lords#RfC for use of peerage titles in lists and tables.) DBD 10:27, 10 July 2021 (UTC)

• It would help if you could give an example… because I am not sure that there is an “established practice” - I have looked at articles on several historical ministries, and see multiple (different) stylings. Blueboar (talk) 11:02, 10 July 2021 (UTC)

  Examples: "The Rt Hon The Baroness Evans of Bowes Park PC" in First Johnson ministry (including embedded Template:Boris Johnson cabinet 1 vertical) and other recent ministry and shadow cabinet list articles (say, since 2001); "The Baroness Evans of Bowes Park" [4] DBD 13:29, 10 July 2021 (UTC)

• It's important in a list of cabinet secretaries and ministers to distinguish which are in the Lords and which are in the Commons. I would however change "The Baroness Evans of Bowes Park" to "Natalie Evans, Baroness Evans of Bowes Park" or "Natalie, Baroness Evans" or "Natalie, Lady Evans." Also, drop the "PC." Since everyone on the list is a PC, it makes no sense to include it for peers only. TFD (talk) 13:51, 10 July 2021 (UTC)
• No, it is not compatible. MOS:SURNAME only allows nobility to be referred to solely by title on subsequent use, and deprecates that approach entirely for modern persons. We have a detailed guideline, WP:NCBRITPEER, designed to ensure that the titles of articles of British nobility are the most recognizable common name. I can think of no reason why that common name would not be what we use to identify that person on first mention in other articles. Piping the link to remove the name is not at all helpful to the reader. We have no obligation to conform to the official style of the British government for a particular context. This also sometimes comes up with respect to the royals (e.g., referring to the Princess Royal or the Earl of Wessex in an article purely by their titles and not their names). Keeping in mind we are writing for a global audience, and deliberately want to avoid in-group shibboleths, using the common name that forms the article title is almost always the most appropriate choice.--Trystan (talk) 15:38, 10 July 2021 (UTC)

  For one thing, ministers in the United Kingdom can come from both the House of Commons and the House of Lords (though nowadays from the lower house). Ministers drawn from the House of Lords may also have served in the Commons too: an example would be Zac Goldsmith. As we are indeed "writing for a global audience", it would not be clear to the reader that Goldsmith is a minister from the House of Lords: an important distinction. Sdrqaz (talk) 20:26, 10 July 2021 (UTC)

  Even the prime minister can come from the House of Lords. Though, that hasn't happened for quite some time :) GoodDay (talk) 20:44, 10 July 2021 (UTC)

  The last time was in 1963, when the 14th Earl of Home was appointed PM - he renounced his peerage four days later. You need to go right back to the 3rd Marquess of Salisbury to find the last PM who sat in the Lords throughout his term (1895–1902). Several PMs have been elevated to the the peerage, but since 1876 that has only happened after they left office for the last time - the last incumbent PM to be raised to the peerage was Benjamin Disraeli, who became the 1st Earl of Beaconsfield in 1876 and left office in 1880. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 21:08, 10 July 2021 (UTC)

  @Sdrqaz: Quite right re: Goldsmith and other peers whose biographies are at their names alone. I agree that when it is necessary to make clear that they are a peer, their title should be included after the link. DBD 12:39, 13 July 2021 (UTC)

  @Trystan: Thanks, I appreciate your focus on ease of access for a broad readership. In your last sentence, you touch on what I think is my main concern — that this practice has never been examined outside of a very small group of editors. This is the clear benefit of seeking wider comment. DBD 12:43, 13 July 2021 (UTC)

• Title shown or not, it helps to show the persons actual name. GoodDay (talk) 16:32, 10 July 2021 (UTC)
• It is compatible – Titles are names, and always have been names in British society. When the majority of reliable news sources refer to someone as 'Baroness Evans of Bowes Park' without further qualification, then there are no grounds for saying that that is not a common name for that person. MOS:SURNAME only deprecates titles for modern persons in situations where there could be confusion, not completely, and furthermore, the specific instances we are talking about here are tables, not prose, so it is likely that these guidelines do not apply at all. The tables follow customary British style for ministry lists, and unless someone can think of a good reason to deviate from it, as it is found in reliable sources, we should not do so. More importantly, the tables serve to chronicle the style due to a person in the position that they are serving in the British government, and in this context, this is useful information for the reader. Finally, I must express my utmost opposition to the use of Wikipedia-invented styles like 'Natalie, Baroness Evans', the likes of which should not be used anywhere. We must, must follow reliable sources, lest we become the source of the proliferation of styles that do not actually exist. RGloucester — ☎ 20:23, 10 July 2021 (UTC)
• Of course it's compatible, per above. Nothing whatsoever makes it incompatible with any guideline. Peers are invariably referred to in the media as Lord, Lady or Baroness So-and-So, not by their first names. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:00, 13 July 2021 (UTC)

  Note (this is included in the linked prior discussions): I had particularly in mind the MOS sections MOS:SURNAME and MOS:HON; as Trystan points out above, WP:NCBRITPEER is also relevant.

  MOS:HON begins "Honorifics and styles of nobility should normally be capitalized, e.g., Her Majesty, His Holiness. They are not usually used in running text, though some may be appropriate in the lead sentence of a biographical article, as detailed below, or in a section about the person's titles and styles."

  MOS:SURNAME para 4: "A member of the nobility may be referred to by title if that form of address would have been the customary way to refer to him or her; for example Robert Dudley, 1st Earl of Leicester, may become the Earl of Leicester, the Earl, or just Leicester (if the context is clear enough) in subsequent mentions. For modern-day nobility it is better to use name and title; at some time in the future the Prince of Wales will be a different person than Charles, Prince of Wales, and a great many articles risk becoming out of date. Be careful not to give someone a title too soon; for example, one should use Robert Dudley or Dudley when describing events before his elevation to the peerage in 1564."

  In case these help further discussion. DBD 13:17, 13 July 2021 (UTC)

  We are not discussing the use of honorifics, except for in the narrow case of the ministry tables, which as specified are a section 'about a person's titles and styles' as relevant to their participation in the ministry. No one is suggesting using honorifics in running text. Again, on the point of MOS:SURNAME, the relevant section reads 'For modern-day nobility it is better to use name and title; at some time in the future the Prince of Wales will be a different person than Charles, Prince of Wales, and a great many articles risk becoming out of date', and this obviously does not apply to life peers, for whom there is no such possibility of confusion. In any case, as I said above, I do not think that this section, which is about running text, applies to tables, and specifically, to tables that are intended to display the styles and titles as they are accorded to a person who holds a specific position within the British government. RGloucester — ☎ 15:22, 14 July 2021 (UTC)

  I contend that none of the contexts we're talking about are "about a person's titles and styles", but about their rôle(s). You are correct that the guidelines as they stand don't mention tables nor lists; but I have put out this request for comment so that other users might comment. You and I have rehearsed this enough and this is to broaden the discussion. DBD 16:28, 14 July 2021 (UTC)

  What you don't seem to understand is that, in a British governmental context, 'role' can accord one a title or style, and vice-versa. Being made a privy councillor grants one the style of 'The Right Honourable' (and there are indeed occasions when cabinet members are not PCs, contrary to what was stated above), being given a peerage grants one the ability to sit in the government as a minister, &c. One might remember the recent creation of a peerage for Zac Goldsmith, which was noted in the media, given that he had just lost his seat in the Commons, and was made a peer specifically so he could continue to sit in government! Likewise, various titles and styles are awarded to people for their service in government, and these are also worthy of note in this context. This is the reason why British ministry lists, whether those found in Dods or on the British government website, always include titles and styles. This is not a matter of etiquette, courtesy or deference, as you have tried to claim, but rather a matter of informing the reader of a person's role and status within the ministry. I can understand why some contemporary persons have a disdain for noble titles and styles, and indeed, editors here from outwith Britain might view this matter as parochial. However, it is not Wikipedia's job to reform British society by diminishing the role these titles play in actual practice, and furthermore, to nullify them in a way that does not accord with common usage. We should reflect usage in reliable sources. RGloucester — ☎ 16:47, 14 July 2021 (UTC)

  You are trying to discredit me as some kind of iconoclast. That is ad hominem. The question is compatibility of practice with guidelines; and this is a Request for Comment, whose purpose is to gather more editors' insight, not to hear from the same editor many times, thank you. DBD 08:30, 16 July 2021 (UTC)

  I think the contentious issue here isn't about whether titles should be excluded, but about whether names should be included. I agree that titles are relevant to indicate the person's role and status within the ministry, but names are equally important to actually identify who the person is to the reader. For example, to explicitly indicate to the reader that Zac Goldsmith from the First Johnson ministry and The Lord Goldsmith of Richmond Park from the Second Johnson ministry are in fact the same person. The ministry articles should convey such information clearly and explicitly to the reader, without requiring specialized knowledge or clicking every link in the article. Listing him as "The Right Honourable Zac Goldsmith, Lord Goldsmith of Richmond Park PC" achieves both goals, and can hardly be said to convey a revolutionary disdain for nobility. If we want to explicitly convey how he is listed in the official government list but still convey vital information to the reader, "The Right Honourable Lord Goldsmith of Richmond Park PC (Zac Goldsmith)" would also work.--Trystan (talk) 14:52, 16 July 2021 (UTC)

  There is nothing inherently wrong with either of your two proposals, and I'm not opposed to using them. My objection is primarily to Wikipedia-invented styles like 'Zac, Lord Goldsmith'. However, I have to admit that I feel your proposal makes the names much longer without fair reason. I don't believe that titles, as commonly used in the media, are 'specialised knowledge'. See The Evening Standard, The Times, BBC. &c. Admittedly, Lord Goldsmith of Richmond Park is somewhat exceptional, in that he had substantial media coverage before elevation to the peerage, and also, there is another well-known Lord Goldsmith, making use of the short form of his title ambiguous. In the context of a ministry list, however, and specifically a table, I don't really understand the need for adding an additional name appendage, given that Wikipedia is WP:NOTPAPER, and hyperlinks are available. I don't think it is a burden to expect the few people who will be confused to click the hyperlink. RGloucester — ☎ 15:08, 16 July 2021 (UTC)

• It is compatible but shorter forms are usually best, per TFD above. Johnbod (talk) 17:08, 14 July 2021 (UTC)
• Comment - Makes ya wonder, don't it? Is he Prime Minister Lamb or Prime Minister Melbourne. GoodDay (talk) 14:56, 16 July 2021 (UTC)

  He is 'Viscount Melbourne' in every book I've read on the subject (and definitely not 'Prime Minister Melbourne', which is an Americanised form). RGloucester — ☎ 15:10, 16 July 2021 (UTC)

  My point is though, which is his surname? His family name, or his title? What's best to use, across the 'pedia. GoodDay (talk) 15:19, 16 July 2021 (UTC)

  His common name is 'Viscount Melbourne'/'Lord Melbourne', and he should be referred to as such (he can also be referred to as just 'Melbourne' after he has been first introduced). There is no reason to be so attached to the modern (and 'Americanised') idea of an essentialised surname. As I said above, titles have always, always been used as names in British society. RGloucester — ☎ 15:22, 16 July 2021 (UTC)

  RGlouchester has it correct: use “Lord X” / “Lady Y” / “Viscount Z”, as this is common usage. Blueboar (talk) 16:09, 16 July 2021 (UTC)

• No, it is not compatible. I would support Tristan above and suggest that commonname is generally the way to go, which aligns with the general principles that apply across WP and would put clarity and ease of reading first. In an article about the person in question, their full name including any titles and honorifics is spelled out once, in the lead, with commonname (or just surname) used thereafter, the principle being that the full name is readily accessible for anyone who needs it. On the same basis, tables and lists that include wikilinks to the personal bio page should be based on commonname format; anyone who wants to full gen just needs to click once. Lists and tables benefit from being in a clear, straightforward easy to read format, and clutter from spelling out each individual’s full title is a disbenefit. MapReader (talk) 05:29, 17 July 2021 (UTC)

Name changes in which previous name was considered offensive

I was curious about this stipulation in MOS:CHANGEDNAME:

If a person, or more typically a group, has adopted a new name because they determined the old name to be offensive, generally use the new name for all time periods. Note the old name in the first sentence of the lead, when discussing the naming history, and when citing works published under the old name. Note the other name as "(formerly X)" or "(now Y)" if needed for clarity. Examples: Lady A, The Chicks.

This was added in this edit in February. As far as I can tell from searching the archives of this talk page, it doesn't seem this provision was ever discussed? It seems it may have been related to this RfC on MOS:DEADNAME. Beland who made the addition was also the closer of that RfC and mentioned the Lady A and Chicks examples in their closing statement. But as far as I can tell, this scenario was not mentioned in the RfC statement. Perhaps there was some extensive discussion of it as part of the RfC (there were a lot of comments), though I was not able to find evidence of this.

Does this actually have consensus? And if so, I'm curious what encyclopedic purpose was found to be served by having a different treatment for Puff Daddy or Cat Stevens vs. Dixie Chicks or Lady Antebellum. Colin M (talk) 21:00, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

The previous discussions about deadnaming were so complicated it's probably worth just considering this question on its own merits. For names that are considered offensive (at least by the person or group being named), the purpose of generally following the name change is to avoid distracting readers and fans by repeating the offensive name unnecessarily. For the purpose of presenting facts clearly, it still needs to be explained that the old name and the new name refer to the same entity. For name changes where the old name is not offensive, the only real consideration is clarity. Many editors contributing to the deadnaming RFCs did object to anachronisms. Certainly for corporations and countries and similar entities, it seems clearer to use the name in use at the time, since it's associated with a particular era and a particular governance structure. Arguably, that's somewhat true for recording artists as well, though for the purpose of clarity, it still needs to be noted that e.g. Cat Stevens is also known as Yusuf Islam. -- Beland (talk) 21:26, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for noting this; I have removed it pending discussion. I do not agree with this addition. There was no real discussion of this in the RfC about deadnaming, so it lacks community support. Deadnaming as a concept applies only to individuals, and only to those who have changed gender; there is no such thing as a deadname for a band or other group of people, only a former name. I find it rather unlikely that anyone seriously finds words like "antebellum" or "dixie" to be so offensive that these words should be avoided entirely. And even if they did, WP:NOTCENSORED applies. We need to avoid WP:CREEP, and the fact is that contextually, using the name in use at the time may be the most sensible in many cases. Crossroads ^-talk- 04:39, 14 July 2021 (UTC)

One possible unintended consequence of this change relates to MOS:LDS. A few years ago, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints discontinued the use of common names like "Mormon Church", "Mormons", "LDS Church", effectively saying that it found those terms offensive. The first is already generally disallowed by the topic-specific MOS, but the second and third last have been deemed still acceptable. The argument could be made that the proposed addition to MOS:CHANGEDNAME would support a change of the MOS:LDS to follow the church's requested style guidelines, something that has been quite strongly opposed to this point. Note that MOS:LDS already does allow for the previous names of the church to be used ("Church of Christ", "Church of the Latter Day Saints", etc) when it's associated with a particular era. "LDS Church" is used extensively through WP, especially as a parenthetical disambiguation in article titles. --FyzixFighter (talk) 04:54, 14 July 2021 (UTC)

Credentials

I seek not to change Wikipedia policy on credentials. However, I am concerned about the addition of the link "Academic or professional titles and degrees 'WP:CREDENTIALS' redirects here. For the use of credentials by Wikipedia editors, see Wikipedia:There is no credential policy." The link takes the reader, probably an editor, to a controversial essay created in 2008 by an editor whose Talk page consists of fatalistic language regarding the perceived hopelessness of Wikipedia, not to mention several grammatical and style errors, all of which make me question the wisdom of linking to the essay from the all-important Wikipedia Manual of Style. (Examples: "...editing Wikipedia is futile." "Wikipedia is a nightmare that is slowly eroding and collapsing in and on itself.") To include a link from the Manual of Style page implies acceptance of the essay and gives its author a cloak of authority. I am not sure most Wikipedia editors would agree to give this author that level of authority, as evidenced by the concerns of Wikipedia editors who, through the edit history and the essay's Talk page, have taken issue with it. It should also be noted that the editor has not contributed to Wikipedia since 2011. My concern is not only with the author, but with the essay. Although Wikipedia Manual of Style/Biography Academic or professional titles and degrees states a clear Wikipedia policy, the essay inaccurately states that there is no Wikipedia policy on academic or professional titles and degrees, saying "In the absence of an official policy, editors are free to make claims regarding their own credentials as they see fit, but there is no official requirement for any other editors to treat credentials in the same manner." Also, I am concerned that although it is an essay and not a guideline or policy, editors still may misconstrue the article to be a Wikipedia guideline or policy. That is an easy mistake to make for all editors, but especially for new or inexperienced editors. For the reasons stated, I am removing the link and recommending that the essay is deleted. If, as the essay states, it is not "one of Wikipedia's policies or guidelines, as it has not been thoroughly vetted by the community," then why are we linking to it from the Manual of Style article? The Manual of Style article is one of the most important articles on Wikipedia. Everything we do on Wikipedia is based on the Manual of Style. I am posting this as a Talk section to allow any editor to post his or her opinion on the removal of the link. Clearly, my opinion is that this essay has no place on the page of the Manual of Style. Thank you for your contribution to Wikipedia and your consideration of my edit. God bless and happy editing! MarydaleEd (talk) 19:25, 16 July 2021 (UTC)

Rhododentrites, from our discussion regarding deleting this essay, I understand that the author's point was that the credentials of Wikipedia editors are unverified. I am not sure why that was important enough to warrant an essay, because as editors, we are all equal. An editor's credentials are irrelevant since we cannot publish articles of original work, but every editor has the right to publish an essay. I agree with you that there is no reason to delete the essay and appreciate you clarifying the text for me. However, I still believe this essay should not be linked from the Wikipedia Manual of Style and I am displeased that you reverted my edit. I brought the subject to the Talk page and invited a discussion in the spirit of collaboration so a consensus could be reached. Perhaps I should have initiated the discussion before I deleted the link, and I hope I can be forgiven if I jumped the gun. Whether a consensus is reached to keep it or delete it, I am happy to acquiesce to the will of my colleagues. I remain steadfast in my belief that even though the author is correct, the essay as it stands should not be linked from the heart of Wikipedia's policy page. However, I am open to compromise. If we think the point is important enough to be included in the Manual of Style, is there a better way to incorporate language into the policy and guidelines instead of linking to an essay? I would be happy to submit language to add, but would welcome your recommendation for text to incorporate into the Manual of Style alerting readers that editors' credentials are not verified. Again, thank you for contributing to this conversation. I hope we hear from others. God bless and happy editing. MarydaleEd (talk) 22:41, 16 July 2021 (UTC)

MOS:DEADNAME for non-living people

So like, we really gotta do something to establish a site-wide handling of how deadnaming is handled with deceased people, because it's the wild god damned west on Wikipedia. The lack of any specific guidelines on how to handle deadnaming even lead to a huge to-do about Sophia, where people were adding their deadname before the body was even cold, under the logic that non-notability of a deadname is only a factor in living people. Not only is such an action obviously ghoulish, and not only does such an action drive away certain editors on a website noted for demographic issues, but it still can cause distress to the people who were close to this person in life, as well as readers who are like Sophia, who are made to feel unwelcome on Wikipedia. Something has to be done to address this policy vacuum. - Bryn (talk) (contributions) 15:56, 18 July 2021 (UTC)

Do you mean Sophie (musician)? GiantSnowman 16:24, 18 July 2021 (UTC)

Yeah, my b. - Bryn (talk) (contributions) 16:27, 18 July 2021 (UTC)

Checking around, Sophie's full name was readily published in BLP-compliant sources as early as 2015 (from what I can find). This would not be deadnaming even if Sophie was still living. --Masem (t) 16:38, 18 July 2021 (UTC)

Firstly, my point is that it is clear that the deadname was featured in the article specifically because Sophie had no coverage by the BLP guideline anymore. Secondly, it is still definitionally deadnaming, as deadnaming refers to the act of using the name that they had when they presented as the gender assigned at birth. - Bryn (talk) (contributions) 17:10, 18 July 2021 (UTC)

Masem, I'm not sure whether you realize how MOS:DEADNAME works for living people. For a deadname to appear in a BLP article, it is not sufficient that the former name be reliably sourced: the BLP subject must have used the former name voluntarily to refer to themselves, and have met Notability standards while doing so. It does not seem likely that Sophie! met that standard but even if so, we should all remain clear on what the standard for living (or recently deceased) people is before expanding it to long-dead people. Newimpartial (talk) 17:17, 18 July 2021 (UTC)

As the article on Sophie says "Prior to taking the stage name Sophie, the artist's birth name was used in larger projects. Sophie appeared in promotional photographs of the band Motherland during 2008–2009, sporting a shock of red hair and androgynous facial features. The artist's birth name was credited in the remix of Light Asylum's "A Certain Person" in 2010.[19] The artist began using the Sophie moniker in 2012, but the birth name was listed in the 2013 duo project Sfire." So I think the line for Sophie being notable before using the new name is clearly met including the volume of RS that mention that. I agree that generally the same standards for deadnaming or lack of that should hold true for BRD as it does for BLP in general, but I don't think this applies for Sophie. --Masem (t) 17:30, 18 July 2021 (UTC)

See also: Talk:Billy Tipton § Dead name and other changes to terminology

As it's written, MOS:DEADNAME is primarily designed to protect the privacy of living people covered under the WP:BLP policy, because it's extremely important that those articles are correct. The guideline currently reads:

If a living transgender or non-binary person was not notable under a former name (a deadname), it should not be included in any page (including lists, redirects, disambiguation pages, category names, templates, etc), even in quotations, even if reliable sourcing exists. Treat the pre-notability name as a privacy interest separate from (and often greater than) the person's current name.

Obviously, Wikipedia still has a duty to write about all transgender and nonbinary subjects---living or deceased---in a way which is not harmful or stigmatizing, so you're right that more consideration about this policy, as it applies to non-BLP subjects, is necessary.

I think it's reasonable to say that this particular paragraph should, by default, apply to all transgender subjects who were not notable under their former names. i.e. removing "living" from the first sentence. A change like this would probably require an RfC, and I'd be interested to see what other editors have to say about it. RoxySaunders (talk · contribs) 16:37, 18 July 2021 (UTC)

I would agree that deadnaming should apply to the deceased, just with the understanding that sources post-death may be more forthcoming about publishing these earlier details and if this readily available in sources, it should not be omitted from the article. --Masem (t) 16:53, 18 July 2021 (UTC)

Wikipedia obviously should not be the first to publish (ie “out”) a Deadname… because that would be a violation of our WP:No original research policy. However, the extra caution of respecting the subject’s privacy does not apply to the dead. So if reliable sources note a Deadname, so can we. Blueboar (talk) 17:17, 18 July 2021 (UTC)

Could we at least agree, then, that if no independent, reliable sources are available for a former name that are published after a subject's death, that WP would not include it either? I'm not sure that this would affect many cases, but it would move the boundary away from the current conceptual free-for-all. Newimpartial (talk) 17:21, 18 July 2021 (UTC)

I would definitely agree that we should only rely on best-quality sourcing for bios of deceased people for any inclusion of deadnaming. (Eg when I was searching for Sophie above, Daily Fail came up a lot and I would not use them at all for even long-dead people). --Masem (t) 17:32, 18 July 2021 (UTC)

The quality of sourcing definitely matters, but I don’t think it matters when it was published. Once a person has died, they no longer need the extra privacy protection we gave them while alive. Noting a historical name change becomes a standard biographical detail. Blueboar (talk) 00:41, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

To paraphrase Gertrud Stein, a reliable source is a reliable source is a reliable source. I do not understand why those that are published after a subject's death should be any different than those published before a subject's death. Peaceray (talk) 04:43, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

I also agree that this rule should be changed to include trans people who are dead, in most cases.

Is it agreed upon policy that respecting the subject's privacy does not apply to the dead? If so, could someone please cite that section of policy? It would seem to me that it is best case in most situations to refer to someone in death as they would have asked in life. In cases of trans people who very clearly stated their desire not to be deadnamed, or if they lived under their new name for many years, I don't see why it would be justifiable in most cases to ignore that wish after death.

Also, deadnaming trans people who are dead does not just affect the subject: it also affects other trans people who are alive and read the article, and enables invasive curiousity around trans people's private lives. This feeds into a narrative that trans people are lying or covering up their identities, which is both disrespectful to the person who has died and harmful to living trans people.

If the rule is that a living or recently deceased trans person's deadname shouldn't be shared unless notable, it would seem that at least in some cases that should apply to dead people as well. Catman6423 (talk) 19:29, 18 July 2021 (UTC)

That seems too wide of a scope to me. None of us want to see trans people harmed, but we are not here to prevent the general public from having "invasive curiosity"—that would be like stopping all gossip. Impossible. Our guideline is worded to protect a single individual and their immediate family and friends. Binksternet (talk) 22:55, 18 July 2021 (UTC)

The Sophie case is interesting because the birth name was used in multiple reliable secondary sources after the artist started using the stage name Sophie, and after the artist became famous. (The earliest published "Sophie" that I found is from January 2012 in Bomb magazine.) Was fame acquired by this person before 2012? Not so much as to satisfy WP:MUSICBIO; the person had been a member of a marginally successful trio called Motherland, and had collaborated without much fanfare in other projects such as Sfire with Jeffrey Sfire, all using the birth name. None of these would have brought independent notability. But with newfound 2015 fame, the birth name was connected to the stage name in the following publications: Pitchfork, NME, Exclaim! all from 2015, and The Times, The Guardian, Red Bull magazine, Queerspace magazine, NOW Toronto, TIU magazine (Spain), The New York Times, Los Angeles Times and AllMusic from 2016. Sources are not lacking. What is lacking is notability prior to the Sophie moniker of 2012.

The majority of posthumous sources don't connect the birth name to the stage name. Perhaps the only one doing so is this obituary in The Herald newspaper of her native Glasgow.

What makes this case interesting is that the media were busily hunting down the connection in 2015–2016, something we would normally summarize for the reader. Usually, Wikipedia follows the example of the media, but in this case we have erected an artificial barrier, a barrier of our own making. So in this case Wikipedia departs from the media. Binksternet (talk) 19:44, 18 July 2021 (UTC)

At least as I read on our deadnaming principles, we're not necessarily applying the WP:N metrics (eg meeting the requirements for a standalone article) when determining if a person was notable before the name change, but simply if they were clearly discussed in some sources at some length - here being a member of Motherland which is not a trivial thing (it would be different if this was some random garage band that went nowhere with no wide releases of their music). And of course, they had a major role within this group, too, this was not like a roadie or the like that didn't make the music or appeared on stage. Here, I think that line is clearly passed for Sophia, in addition to the quality of the sources at the time (2015-ish, rather than at death.) The key is to remember that we're not supposed to be mudracking to mention the deadname and using crap or primary sources like records to do this, and that's definitely not the case happening here. --Masem (t) 20:08, 18 July 2021 (UTC)

Also, I'm seeing several obit-type sources from RSes that mention the original name, eg Deadline Hollywood, The Atlantic, MTV, and Billboard, to name a few. --Masem (t) 20:14, 18 July 2021 (UTC)

I think we definitely should not dead name living trans people for the privacy reasons cited above, but if reliable sources cover their name after they have passed away then it should be included. GiantSnowman 20:44, 18 July 2021 (UTC)

Again - could you please explain why privacy concerns don't remain after death? Catman6423 (talk) 20:48, 18 July 2021 (UTC)

And again, deadnaming someone after their death affects not only the subject but also other trans people by extension. I don't agree with that. Catman6423 (talk) 20:49, 18 July 2021 (UTC)

Masem, I think the second paragraph of the current MOS:DEADNAME is quite clear about this:

If a living transgender or non-binary person was not notable under a former name (a deadname), it should not be included in any page (including lists, redirects, disambiguation pages, category names, templates, etc), even in quotations, even if reliable sourcing exists.

The word "notable" links to WP:N in the guideline itself, and Talk page discussions or RfCs I've seen or participated in, prior to and since the latest DEADNAME rewrite, have frequently turned on when the former name was no longer used by the BLP subject and when they became notable. Binksternet's discussion of SOPHIE's career above is a perfect example of how this should be done, regardless of exactly how long DEADNAME applies after death or what precisely the relevant sources are. Newimpartial (talk) 21:19, 18 July 2021 (UTC)

I would still argue that in the specific case of Sophie, which is being called a "stage name" rather than a new identity name (in contrast to something like the Elliot Page case which is a full name change), this is less a deadname issue because it doesn't seem directly connected to specifically coming out as trans - and the sourcing/commentary on identity in the article itself don't see to suggest anything different. That is, is this like not calling (at least at one point) Madonna as her given name. But I will still point out the numerous sources before and after death (and that's just in English) and while before being a solo artist, while there may not be enough for outright notability for a standpoint based on the non-solo career, this is far from being a completely private, poorly-known individual that we do want to protect. --Masem (t) 21:58, 18 July 2021 (UTC)

"could you please explain why privacy concerns don't remain after death" - they do, but not as much, hence why we have WP:BLP, WP:BLPPRIMARY etc. In short, it's because dead people can't sue. GiantSnowman 11:24, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

Strong oppose For many historical biographies dealing with transgender identity, the whole reason for notability is that. A completeness requires the birth name. Otherwise we are going beyond respect for living or recently deceased individuals & carving out a whole new class for the transgendered. This fails to align with the WP:CENSOR policy & the WP:RECENTISM explanatory supplement.

If we are going to remove the things that makes a subject notable from an article, then each article should also have a WP:AFD nomination. To me, that is the logical consequence. Peaceray (talk) 20:51, 18 July 2021 (UTC)

This argument strikes me as completely incoherent. For trans people who became Notable because they were trans but whose deadnames (e.g., birth names) were unknown during their lives and who were only known by their chosen names, how on earth can their deadname be an inherent aspect of their Notability? If the article did not mention that they were trans, your argument to "send them all to AfD" might at least be internally consistent. However, I haven't seen any edits that would do that - even deadname removals or changes to "birth sex" language that you have reverted - so, seriously - whuuut? Newimpartial (talk) 21:31, 18 July 2021 (UTC)

I know of no article which contains a birth name in which those names were unknown during their lives. Otherwise, we would have no knowledge of the birth name. The inclusion of their birth name is part of the verification of their birth identity.

Enough with the DEADSHAMING. If everyone treated the transgendered with the respect each human deserves & addressed everyone as they wished to be addressed, there would be no shame about a birth name. It would be just another factoid. Peaceray (talk) 22:35, 18 July 2021 (UTC)

But it is not just another factoid, and they are not always treated with the respect each human deserves. —El Millo (talk) 22:43, 18 July 2021 (UTC)

In a truly neutral world both would be. Do we not strive for neutrality? Peaceray (talk) 23:15, 18 July 2021 (UTC)

In a truly safe world, it would be safe to publish the home addresses and phone numbers of celebrities on Wikipedia. However, because doing so puts the subject at risk, we do not do this. We create a Wikipedia for the world that exists, not the world you wish existed. Also, the word is transgender, not transgendered. - Bryn (talk) (contributions) 00:07, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

What you write is true for living people. However, we are discussing here the extension of BLP guidelines to the dead. I fail to see the harm to Billy Tipton or a myriad of other deceased transgender folks (and I write of historical biographies, not recent deaths) if we mention their birth name.

You are right about home addresses and phone numbers: for privacy in the case of the living, & irrelevancy in the case of the dead. Peaceray (talk) 03:57, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

Yet we do not include the addresses of the deceased. - Bryn (talk) (contributions) 17:22, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

Peaceray, don't be draft. In the case of Billy Tipton, which you know well, his deadname was not published in any independent, reliable secondary sources during his lifetime nor was it used by the subject at any time from his mid-20s until death, nor were any of those who knew him in the last decades of his life aware of it. This is a perfect example where the deadname only became a known fact about the subject in sources published post mortem. And there is no consensus on WP about the verification of the birth identity of trans people, I'm afraid. Once again, assuming the thing that is to be proven. Newimpartial (talk) 23:22, 18 July 2021 (UTC)

From my understanding this part of MOS:DEADNAME (If a living transgender or non-binary person was not notable under a former name (a deadname), it should not be included in any page (including lists, redirects, disambiguation pages, category names, templates, etc), even in quotations, even if reliable sourcing exists. Treat the pre-notability name as a privacy interest separate from (and often greater than) the person's current name., does not apply to deaceased persons. If it is noted in RSs it should probably be included in the article. As said above we should not be making an artificial barrier between RSs and Wiki on deceased persons.  Spy-cicle💥  ^Talk? 20:58, 18 July 2021 (UTC)

This !vote seems to me to assume exactly the things it intends to prove. Many participants in this discussion are raising the questions (1) for how long after death does a BLPPRIVACY interest in a trans person's deadname continue to apply - like all BLP concerns, it is not extinguished immediately after death - and (2) whether other factors, notably the avoidance of harm to living (in this case, trans) people affect the appropriate treatment of deadnames for people more than, say, 20 years after death. You can pretend that everyone already agrees that the answers to these questions are (1) only for a short time, maybe a year or two and (2) no, but I don't think !votes that refuse to even engage with the real issues here are particularly helpful at this point. Newimpartial (talk) 21:26, 18 July 2021 (UTC)

Honestly, there is a lot of trivial things about people, places, and objects that we still do not include, even if mentioned in a reliable source. - Bryn (talk) (contributions) 21:45, 18 July 2021 (UTC)

At no point has birth name ever been trivial in an encyclopedia. Binksternet (talk) 22:18, 18 July 2021 (UTC)

I don't think the WP community supports this statement, when it comes to the deadnames of trans people. Perhaps we should have an RfC. :p. Newimpartial (talk) 23:22, 18 July 2021 (UTC)

If the issue was trivial, we wouldn't be spending so much time discussing it. Birth name is a BFD for those who wish to hide it. Not trivial. Binksternet (talk) 04:14, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

The issue is not trivial, the content being added is. Mainly because that is the only justification I have seen for inclusion in the case of people who were not notable under their deadname: "people may want to know a person's deadname." - Bryn (talk) (contributions) 17:22, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

People want to know because it's critically important to a person's life story. Birth name shapes a person's self-image and others' perception of them.[5][6][7][8][9] "A basic struggle in the human kingdom is one of words: name or be named, define or be defined." "Names distinguish one person from another and help form a sense of self." Every trans person has been affected by their birth name. Binksternet (talk) 18:16, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

But if it critical to a person's life story, we would expect reliable sources to have given the birth date that weight in their reporting. We should not be digging it up just to be a completionist if that's not something backed in quality RSes (for living and deceased). --Masem (t) 18:30, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

From Every trans person has been affected by their birth name (clearly true), one cannot reasonably conclude that At no point has birth name ever been trivial in an encyclopedia (alleged but not proven). Whether my birth name had been Ernie or Bert would be of no encyclopaedic interest if no reliable sources had referred to me as Ernie or Bert, no matter how Notable I turned out to be. Newimpartial (talk) 19:13, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

It's not great that there's no clear guidance on this one way or the other; as editors have linked above, it causes the same issue to be discussed over and over on various articles, wasting time. What options should an RfC propose? One end of the spectrum would be to never include any deadname (even if notable), and some people seem to be suggesting the other extreme, including any dead person's deadname (even if obscure). One obvious intermediate option, discussed above, is to remove "living" any apply the existing notability-based threshold to all trans people. What other options might we consider?
Should we distinguish based on how long ago someone died? For example, "someone killed a trans actress and then updated her Wikipedia page because she's no longer alive" feels like it could be handled differently from "someone died two hundred years ago".
(As a separate issue, another shortcoming of current guidance is what to do if someone is marginally notable enough for a Wikipedia article under their deadname, then transitions, and sources for the next fifty years call them by their post-transition name; it seems wrong to keep the no-longer-notable name in the first ten words of the article just as prominently as it'd be in the article of someone who just transitioned. You may know which specific articles I'm thinking of!)
Something else we should consider is moving deadnames which are present out of the lead, but that might be better left to its own discussion/RFC. -sche (talk) 22:24, 18 July 2021 (UTC)

I think you’ve summarized possible RfC options nicely. It may be worth distinguishing between long-dead and recently deceased subjects. As an alternative to removing “living”, an RfC could also propose “living and recently deceased”. RoxySaunders (talk · contribs) 22:54, 18 July 2021 (UTC)

My proposal would be that for people who are dead we use the following criteria:

1) whether there is a notable reason to include their deadname, such as fame under their deadname

2) continue to respect their privacy, as well as the guidelines around the principle of least astonishment [10], as much as possible. If there is clear and compelling evidence that they did not wish to be addressed by their birth name, such as not going by it for most of their life, we should exercise prudence in including it

3) consider the impacts to other, living trans people of treating dead names as public information, and lean against presenting it unless necessary

This would allow us to be judicious, present the name when needed, and avoid it when not. Catman6423 (talk) 22:46, 18 July 2021 (UTC)

To -sche: other factors I would throw in are: (1) what name did reliable sources (if any) use for the subject while they were alive, both before and after transition? There are more aspects to this worth considering, IMO, than the DEADNAME criterion for BLPs; and,

(2) what name or names do recent, reliable scholarship about the subject (if available) use as their standard "common" name? This criterion would begin to deal with the changing norms among biographers and other scholars where it comes to trans life stories.

My sense is that deadnames that meet the current DEADNAME Notability requirement, and deadnames that were the main names used by reliable sources whole the subject was alive, and deadnames that are frequently used in recent (say the last 15 years) biographies should all be included in our articles. This would be considerably more lenient than MOS:DEADNAME for BLPs but much more nuanced than the current free-for-all, and I think it would capture all the deadnames in which the reader had a reasonable, legitimate interest. Newimpartial (talk) 00:37, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

Basically, I would have the mindset that we should not be trying to dig up deadnames - if we are using only one or two sources (even if high quality) with the only mention of the deadname, or that the sources that are being used are poor quality ones, even things like public records/court documents/etc., then we have zero basis to include such names. And this applies across the board for any type of naming issue - pre-marriage names, stage names, names of immigrants before they gained citizenship, etc. Or to flip it around: if we have multiple high-quality RSes repeating the old name in connection to the new name in any of these situations, it makes zero sense not to include it, but this should be taken as a threshold that should be crossed, and treat any case that doesn't meet it as defaulting to omission. Now, in particular for trans individuals, we can talk about minimizing its mention (once is all that is needed) and of course respecting the current name or the name they used when they died in the writing of the rest of the article. But I mean, if its backed by numerous sources (as in the case of Sophie here) omitting it makes us look off. We've not dug anything up - that name is out there, clear as day. Something that can be easily verified by a one minute Google search in good sources should not be something we should be worried about hiding because the privacy / respect aspects simply don't exist when that sourcing is that obvious. --Masem (t) 00:53, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

I generally agree with Newimpartial and MASEM here. Those seem like solid guidelines to me - avoid it unless necessary by the criteria mentioned above, and when necessary minimize its usage. Catman6423 (talk) 01:43, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

This comment is not an RfC (don't !vote), but to spitball possible RfC wording, what do people think of: "Under what conditions should pre-transition names of deceased transgender people be included?
A: Do not include pre-transition names.
B: Include a pre-transition name only if the transgender person was notable under that name (i.e. apply MOS:DEADNAME to all trans people, not just living ones).
C: Include a pre-transition name only if it is commonly used mentioned by reliable sources.
D: Include any pre-transition name." What's missing / what should be changed? Should C be "...if it is commonly mentioned by reliable sources", rather than "used"? (Should those both be options?) (Perhaps some people would vote for "B and C", i.e. include the name if either B or C is met.) -sche (talk) 03:08, 19 July 2021 (UTC) tweaked following comments below

To me it seems that B and C are to similar to be different options, if reliable sources commonly use the pre-transition name to refer to the person, then the name is notable (or perhaps the person has explicitly stated they do not find its use offensive, in which case we could also include it). I also think option A shouldn't be included, as there's been ample consensus in that massive RfC not so long ago that it shouldn't be prohibited in every case and that doing so would be detrimental to readers. —El Millo (talk) 03:43, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

Good point; I changed C to "commonly mentioned". I think that's more distinct (there are living trans people whose articles exclude a name they weren't notable under and don't identify with even though some sourcing mentions it, so there are surely dead people in that situation). But C was an attempt at summarizing the 'commonly found in sources' criterion talked about by Newimpartial and Masem above (who said there's more to what they're thinking of than just applying the existing guideline for living people to dead people, as in B), so if I've mis-summarized and they can provide better (concise) wording to replace C, that'd be great. -sche (talk) 10:08, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

Agreed that A is off the table. That has already been rejected. Crossroads ^-talk- 05:05, 20 July 2021 (UTC)

• You need a time frame for how long after death. Six months, a year, more years... Binksternet (talk) 04:16, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

I agree there's probably a period (but what period?) prior to which someone should be treated one way (but which way?), and after which they should be treated another way (but which way?)... but the fact that different people would answer each of those questions differently makes this tricky; an RfC that tries to ask about all three could end up having too many moving, interacting parts to be intelligible or able to produce a consensus. Maybe we could presume the criteria that should apply to recently deceased people should be the same as for living people, so the first part of the RfC could be How long should MOS:DEADNAME continue to apply to recently deceased people? 1 week, 6 months, 1 year? and the second part could be like After that, under what conditions should a deadname be mentioned? Indicate any you support. 1: include the name if the person was notable under it; 2: include it, regardless of whether they were ever notable under it, as long as it is commonly mentioned by sources; 3: include it, as long as there is any reliable source for it; [etc]"...? -sche (talk) 10:46, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

It is likely the same amount of time that BLP applies to the recently deceased, which is variable, a minimum of 6 months but may be as high as 2 years for a controversial figure where the nature of BLP protection is needed that long after death. There is no hard-fast rule here for all other BLP related aspects, so I'd expect the same principle to apply to deadnaming; some of these may be controversial, some may not. --Masem (t) 13:54, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

Strictly speaking, I think that if a person's deadname is not notable before they are dead, it would create the most stability to simply never include it. This seems like the solution that would create the least strife. Ie, we don't have to go through a process of arguments over whether it's been long enough to include a deadname or not. Just don't do it at all. Such an action would create a more civil, more stable process, as I can assure you, those who are committed to the inclusion of deadnames full stop are less invested in this than those who oppose them full stop. My views go to extremes — that is, that the Washowski sisters, Elliot Page, etc. should not have their deadnames stated — but I know that this will not fly on Wikipedia. Thus, I aim to minimize the number of people who this applies to. - Bryn (talk) (contributions) 17:22, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

But Wikipedia has articles on people who did not clearly meet Wikipedia standards until after death, sometimes long after death. Some of those people were trans, or at least GENDERID would apply to them. So I'm not convinced that a blanket statement that only deadnames that were notable in life should be included actually would work as intended in all cases. Newimpartial (talk) 17:30, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

As an example: James Barry (surgeon). It's debated whether they were trans or not and the article forgoes pronouns as a result. But, clearly a number of people think Barry was a trans man. Barry is only notable for the career as a surgeon, which happened while living as a man. A blanket application of DEADNAME to all persons, not just living ones, would result in people arguing that since Barry could have been trans, Barry's birth name must be purged from the article, even though Barry died 156 years ago, long before any concept of deadnaming existed, and way past the time when the privacy interest of WP:BDP applies. This would be an extreme position and would take Wikipedia away from how the sources treat the topic, which is against the WP:V and WP:NPOV policies. More generally: There are massive differences between the situation of someone who died, say, a couple of years ago, and lived in a cultural context much like 2021's, and someone who died centuries ago. Any proposed changes must account for this. Crossroads ^-talk- 05:02, 20 July 2021 (UTC)

Another "moving part": many comments above deal with when to include (mention) a deadname, but it'd be desirable to also have consensus on which name to use as the primary name in the text of the main biography or other articles, right? Obvious options include "do the same as with living people / use the chosen name" or "use the name that's most common in RS written after the name change" (borrowing some language / ideas from WP:COMMONNAME). These might not match if e.g. a person transitions after their main period of notability has passed and gets only a little (but some) attention from RS post-transition. Is this too many moving parts to ask about in one RfC? I mean, the RfCs which updated the guidance about living people were, well, RfCs, plural. -sche (talk) 18:24, 20 July 2021 (UTC)

I fully support the layout of the RfC as suggested by -sche above' with the necessary adjustments for time (could this be done by second simple 'poll' rfc with options like after one year, 5 years, 30 years and never). In general I support the change intially suggested by RoxySaunders above, that the beginning of MOS:DEADNAME should be simply changed by replacing "living" from the first sentence with all, so the guidance covers all transgender subjects who were not notable under their former name. I see no reason why folks in death should be treated any differently as in life (especially as soon as they drop) It is that simple. It makes no difference if the most reliable media mention the persons deadname after death, if that person was not notable under the deadname it should not be used, we do have higher standards than the press. ~ BOD ~ ^TALK 20:56, 20 July 2021 (UTC)

I would oppose removing “living”. Blueboar (talk) 21:05, 20 July 2021 (UTC)

Simply why? This rule change relates only to those who were never notable under the Deadname. Why does the fact of their death make it suddenly OK broadcast their Deadname. If the existing rule protects and respects people while they live, it seems logical to me to extend the cover to include the deceased ~ BOD ~ ^TALK 00:01, 21 July 2021 (UTC)

I can see how mentioning a living person’s deadname can cause that person emotional (and perhaps even physical) harm, But what harm are we protecting a dead person from? Blueboar (talk) 00:36, 21 July 2021 (UTC)

^{Its goes beyond the very realistic health and real physical assault issues, it is also respecting the person as a human being, plus what about that persons loved ones after death. After all MOS:DEADNAME states Treat the pre-notability name as a privacy interest separate from (and often greater than) the person's current name. And guided by WP:BLPPRIVACY says regards People who are relatively unknown we should include only material that is directly relevant to the person's notability, which a Deadname is highly unlikely to be. ~ BOD ~ TALK 11:28, 21 July 2021 (UTC)} edited ~ BOD ~ ^TALK 12:20, 21 July 2021 (UTC)

The way I would view it (as I mentioned above) is that we don't want to be digging up any old names (not just trans, but pre-marriage, etc.) used by any individual (living or dead) if the quality reliable sourcing is not there for it. WP should not be the "first publisher" of such material, and in such cases, by normalizing it across the board, we should only be repeating that old name if we have a wealth of sources that connect the old name to the new one. Eg in the case of Sophie above, it is very very easy to find the birth name in a wealth of good RSes prior to and after death, and while she may not have been WP:N-notable under that name, its clear that these sources readily make the connection. As a counter example, Dana Simpson before transition went by D.C. Simpson, and while you can hunt and peck for what the D stood for before transitioning, it is very much not wildly published nor connected with the Dana named ("D.C." is only because of previous works published under that). So here's a case that if we strove to include that birth name, we'd be digging up dirt as WP, and that's complete what DEADLINE and other BLP (or even WP:V) policy is meant to stop us doing. The only factor to consider when it comes to dead individuals is that future publications (of quality RS) may be more bold to publish a birth name or other names as more research about the person's life is done. The case around Billy Tipton seems to be such an example. But again, using the same manta that WP should not be the first major publishers of these and should only reflect quality RSes if they publish and connect these names, then we have a nice consistent principle that works great not only for living transgender people, but for deceased ones, and any other situation where one does not keep their birth name for reasons. I know DEADNAME is designed to be tailored around transgender because of sensitivity specifically on bringing up those names, but the principle easily applies across the board. --Masem (t) 00:56, 21 July 2021 (UTC)

I think that is a very good and proper starting point for all BLPs. I would still argue for the extension of MOS:DEADNAME to specifically cover "all" Trans folks who were never WP notable under their deadname. And if MOS:DEADNAME currently guides us regards living subjects that we do not include their deadnames even if reliable sourcing exists, I do not see why that rule should not also apply equally to the deceased (especially the recently deceased). ~ BOD ~ ^TALK 11:28, 21 July 2021 (UTC)

As a hypothetical, take the case of a living person who for all purposed never merited any type of news coverage, period; they then had their transition, and sometime after that, they became an important icon in activism or similar, and their life became the subject of review, which included the transition, and thus we have ready publication of their deadname at this point in multiple high quality sources like the NYTimes or BBC. We aren't digging up that name, and if that name is nearly unavoidable in the media, then it seems rather silly for us to hide it (but as I mentioned above, we can be certain to minimize its usage to likely one mention at most). But that determination should be made on a source review for frequently and quality. There are living people that are trans that have kept their deadname out of subsequent media coverage, but where we have internet troll boards like Kiwi Farms and others do all this research to find out the deadname and try to get that picked up in various outlets , and some sources of lesser reliability might fall for that. So while that may be a case where the deadname can be found without little difficulty, the quality of the sources cover it would be something to stay away from. Whenever we are talking about including a deadname or birth name or other similar case, living or dead, we always should approach that there needs to be a minimum threshold of quality sourcing (reliability of the sources and the number reporting it) to support the inclusion, and err to omission if that threshold is not clearly met. --Masem (t) 12:13, 21 July 2021 (UTC)

I think it leaves the situation slighly vague, future editors will disagree about quality of sources and whether enough reliable secondary sources cover the deadname etc. Surely the argument about the RSP availability of the person's deadname in the RSPs could have been used in respect of living trans individuals, that is why the rule clearly states that we do not include their deadnames even if reliable sourcing exists. It gives the editor clear unambiguous guidance. ~ BOD ~ ^TALK 12:45, 21 July 2021 (UTC)

I'm going to dig my heels in a bit here, partly because I see the discussion polarizing more than I think is useful. I cannot support the extreme position, "just treat all deadnames of dead people the same as living people" because there is a whole category of notable lives - people who became known as Trans, or even became known at all, only through scholarship post mortem - to whom the "only deadnames by which they were Notable at the time" principle doesn't work because there was no "media"-style coverage contributing to their post mortem notability".

On the other hand, I am equally unable to support the other extreme position, that some point (2 years?) after death, DEADNAME ceases to apply at all and all birth names should be included as a matter of encyclopaedic routine. This seems callous to me both in its treatment of the deceased and in its effect on living Trans people. So I think we need some recognition on policy that some of our subjects are notable because of recent, reliable post mortem scholarship. For them, we should follow MOS:GENDERID for their gender identity, as far as the evidence allows, should respect their last chosen name to the extent that we can, but should be able to follow high-quality scholarship in instances where it consistently or prominently features the deadnames of these long-dead individuals (but not do so when high-quality sources do not). That isn't a formal proposal, but it's where I come down. Newimpartial (talk) 13:33, 21 July 2021 (UTC)

I think that is where El Millo recommendation below of a fixed year say 1920 or a fixed period that is a respectful period say 100 years from the death of a subject might be a possible compromise for the two sides you present. ~ BOD ~ ^TALK 14:20, 21 July 2021 (UTC)

I agree we don't want the case that when the proverbial WP:BRD period is up at 2 years, we should have people swooping in to fill in deadnames just because they can show WP:V-appropriate sourcing. But I completely disagree that talking about waiting over 100 years after dead to include deadnames is beyond the scope of what BLP itself implies. Again, I stress that our approach should start with the default "don't include deadnames" but consider only adding them if the threshold of "notability before transition" (eg the Caitlyn Jenner/Elliot Page situation), or if there is clear support recognizing the deadname in multiple high quality reliable media (the Sophie case here). All this on the basis that if that information can be easily found and confirmed by a a brief, simple Google search in multiple sources , we aren't violating any privacy that wasn't already broken by the high quality media. And this is rule that readily applies to the living and deceased, and with the assumption that if that sourcing doesn't exist at the time of the deceased' passing (including the obits in their wake), its likely not going to appear for several years after the fact, and surpassing the BRD period, and thus effectively meeting the same goal. I'm all for keeping the non-notable or not-well discussed deadnames out of articles, that is core to BLP privacy issues, and the threshold to treat an individual differently must be rather high and stringent based on established sourcing. Just that we shouldn't be fearing privacy issues when that deadname is used frequently in our best quality sources. --Masem (t) 20:15, 21 July 2021 (UTC)

I agree with you regards Jenner and Page, deceased subject who was clearly famous/notable under their Deadname and

MOS:DEADNAME A living transgender or non-binary person's former name should be included in the lead sentence of their main biographical article only if they were notable under it; introduce the name with "born" or "formerly"

If we are talking soley about a deceased transgender or non-binary person who was not notable under a former name (a deadname), i still disagree the argument where "if there is clear support recognizing the deadname in multiple high quality reliable media...information can be easily found and confirmed by a a brief, simple Google search in multiple sources" surely the same argument of a multitude RSPs deadnaming the deceased person could have been aimed at the living transgender or non-binary person (though now against the MOS:Deadme protection), the community decided that it "should not be included in any page" , even if reliable sourcing exists for their deadname. We can discuss what reasonably qualifies a respectful time period when the protection might come to an end. I am simply arguing for consistency with the MOS:Deadname guidance. ~ BOD ~ ^TALK 22:56, 21 July 2021 (UTC)edited ~ BOD ~ ^TALK 23:05, 21 July 2021 (UTC)

I continue to disagree with this in certain cases. If we have someone from the 17th or the 19th century, who was not Notable at the time under any name but who was studied over the last few decades because of their queer gender expression, I don't think it makes sense then to leave out the deadname "because they weren't Notable with it at the time" - in such a case that seems entirely irrelevant to me. We should follow our own rules for GENDERID and COMMONNAME, but after that I think we should include the deadname as well if it is preponderant in the highest-quality sources for that individual. My argument isn't "it's in other sources so readers can find it anyway"; rather, it is "if the highest-quality sources do this in these cases, where the risk of harm to anyone is minimal and the benefit of suppressing the name uncertain at best, then in those cases it seems the right thing to do." Newimpartial (talk) 23:13, 21 July 2021 (UTC)

What I said above agrees with you regards historically notable persons, the only thing we need to establish is the length of time that reasonably qualifies as a respectful and necessary time period for the protection to cease. ~ BOD ~ ^TALK 23:53, 21 July 2021 (UTC)

Perhaps, if not for every trans person given the James Barry (surgeon) example given by Crossroads, we could set a starting period, instead of having it be a certain time after the person's death, it could be set for people dead before a certain year, e.g. before 1900, before 1920, or something like that. —El Millo (talk) 00:19, 21 July 2021 (UTC)

That would a far easier & clear guidance for editors to understand, better than my simple time intervals I suggestion. ~ BOD ~ ^TALK 00:26, 21 July 2021 (UTC)

I like this idea. It still leaves us without guidance on people who died before that year, but maybe that's fine, since that's a small percent of cases and handling them case-by-case isn't necessarily a bad idea. Trying to think of how to write an RfC such that the language to be changed in the guideline is obvious (so we don't need umpteen separate discussions like we did with the last RfCs, hah) ... and using "1920" as a cutoff since it was suggested and is approximately a hundred years ago and approximately when the word transsexual was coined and thus a time when the 'modern' era could be considered to start ... what about:

"Under what conditions should pre-transition names of deceased transgender people be included?
A: For any transgender or non-binary person who died after 1920, include a pre-transition name only if the person was notable under that name, i.e. where MOS:DEADNAME currently says "a living transgender or non-binary person", change this to "a living transgender or non-binary person, or one who died after 1920".
B: For any transgender or non-binary person, include a pre-transition name only if the person was notable under that name: where MOS:DEADNAME currently says "a living transgender or non-binary person", change this to "a transgender or non-binary person".
C: For deceased transgender or non-binary people, include a pre-transition name if it is documented by reliable sources."

Do people actually want B to be an option or does A satisfy most people who would want B? Should C be expanded with some guidance on which name to use as the primary name? (I could even foresee splitting it into two options, one for "include deadname, use chosen name as primary" and one for "include deadname, use most common name as primary".) Is any obvious option missing? Does anyone really want "apply the current rules for X number of years after death" as an option separate from "apply the current rules for anyone who died after year X"? Should C incorporate recognition that BLP continues to apply to recently-deceased people for a while, to prevent "ghoulish" immediate edits like the one OP brought up, so changes to articls can be more thought out? -sche (talk) 01:32, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

Ummmm, I really do hate to raise complications, but the "C" option above proposes answers to questions - like on what basis former names should be included - that also arise if there is a date cutoff, but which "A" does not address.

Maybe it would be better to ask whether or not to extend the current DEADNAME provisions back to the beginning of time, back to 1920, or not at all, and then as a later step ask how to handle the earlier deadnames: whether to treat the chosen name as the COMMONNAME, whether the threshold for including the deadname is straight-up Verifiability or a higher standard, etc. It seems to me that deciding between 2 and 100 years (and infinity) for the current DEADNAME provisions might be the easiest part, without raising secondary questions: for example, the "ghoulish" provisions are only relevant if people reject any extension of DEADNAME provisions outside BLPs. Newimpartial(talk) 01:43, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

Simplifying it for a first Rfc is a good idea. First we decide on this, then on how to treat those not covered by DEADNAME, if any. —El Millo (talk) 02:29, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

That's a tempting idea. (I even considered suggesting it in my comment above.) My concern is that any RfC on this topic seems likely to become big and long and heated, and if it ends in no consensus and then having to run another RfC on a different kind of options, when we could theoretically discuss a full "suite" of options from the start, then that's ... likely to be draining. However, I can see the benefits to splitting the issue into separate, "simpler" questions. -sche (talk) 04:15, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

Reply to Newimpartial surely the basis for whether former names may be included - that arise after a cut off period date (A), would be the same as option (C). Currently the mininium requirement for names not prohibited by MOS:DEADNAME is that they are verified by reliable sources. I do however think it would be desireable to have a built in/pre notified second RfC to decide the threshold for including the deceased's deadname once the agreed time period is up, whether it is straight-up Verifiability or a higher standard. ~ BOD ~ ^TALK 08:20, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

Just to be clear: I was talking about the scenario where there would be a date cutoff (e.g., people who died before 1920), and the threshold for including a deadname in articles for people who died before that date. The lowest possible threshold for inclusion would be Verifiability, but a number of other thresholds have been proposed in this discussion. The draft option C above mentioned one such threshold, but if A were to pass then any votes for C would not play any role in setting the threshold in the guideline. Which is why I think it should be a separate decision - personally, I favor "the practice of the best sources" in these cases, which is a much higher standard than Verifiability, but the question hasn't been put to the community and probably shouldn't be, until there is a decision about the date cutoff. Newimpartial (talk) 14:22, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

I think B is desirable out of compleletness, some editors might wish to have that option as others wish for the other extreme of position C. ~ BOD ~ ^TALK 08:20, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

Seperately would it be too confusing if we had 4th option similar to A but for a shorter length of time. Pre deciding that what that shorter time period might be tricky/contenious, but the is no harm to us for trying. I would suggest a generation 25 years or two generations 50? ~ BOD ~ ^TALK 08:20, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

I could support a “not right away” rule… but not one with a set number of years. So much depends on the sources and the specific history of the individual in question. No matter where we draw the line (One year, 10 years, 200 years) there are going to be too many situations where we would have to make an exception… and in both directions (ie situations where it makes sense to mention the deadname before the “cutoff” date… and situations where it makes sense to wait a longer period, or to never mention the deadname at all). It simply has to be done on a case by case basis. Blueboar (talk) 13:26, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

I would still recommend that even if treated case by case, a first point of reference should always be WP:BRD here - this would establish that rushing to include the deadname if it wasn't included before as soon as the person's death is confirmed is pretty much against WP's BLP treatment, but that if 2+ years down the road, that deadname is well-backed by sources, then the reasons to exclude start to wane. There could be easily valid reasons to not include after 2 years, such as if the person's trans status was an object of ridicule by darker forums of the Internet, and thus not including the deadname would be a reasonable step, but that's also a factor built into BRD. We don't need a hard timeframe as long as we defer to both the principle of BRD and that we are judging appropriateness of inclusion by the frequently and quality of sources that do provide WP:V-meeting confirmation of the deadname --Masem (t) 13:55, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

For Masem and Blueboar: do we really think the cases are so heterogeneous that a distinction between, as proposed, those who died before 1920 and those who died more recently doesn't capture the main principles? Certainly the problems I had with applying MOS:DEADNAME to the beginning of time are highly concentrated along those who died before 1920, to the extent that I don't have any problem with excluding them from the BLP DEADNAME rule and coming up with new guidance for them. At the same time, I see much benefit and very little harm to be done by extending deadname protections developed for BLPs to those who died since 1920. It really doesn't seem very complicated to me at this point. Newimpartial (talk) 14:29, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

I'm proposing a KISS-style scheme that would apply to any prior name situation, which would include deadnames along with pre-marriage names, etc. and regardless if they are living or deceased. We go by if that prior name is well-established and routinely connected to the current name in the high quality sources we expect for a BLP or any bio - to a point where it is very easy to discover that prior name with simply google searching - then we should include it, as omission of readily-available, WP:V-meeting information from multiple quality sources would look very odd for WP. As I've said, we should be establishing a policy that it should not be up to WP editors to dig up these names from few sources or weak/non-RSes (including all the caveats from primary sources per BLP), and that's generally how the current DEADNAME intent reads, but the situation can be easily kept to a simple concept applying to living/dead and any other name factor by assuring a volume of quality sources exists to back it up, as if that volume does exist, the privacy issues are out the door.

How that name is woven into the article would require a bit of different care depending on the case - for a trans individual, if they weren't notable under that name at all, then very much so its not something to put in the lede but mention once in the body, whereas for your Caitlyn Jenners and Elliot Pages, that former name should be a lede term due to prior notability, and in either case, minimizing its usage as necessary to one or two mentions. --Masem (t) 14:57, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

I can’t speak to “we”… but I do think applying a fixed date (any date) would be problematic. A one-size-fits-all approach is not the way to go. I totally agree with the idea of “respect the subject’s privacy”… but that respect has to be tempered by our job as encyclopedists. There are too many variables (sourcing, the history of the individual in question, etc.) for any one-size-fits-all rule on DEADNAMING to work. For some, we should mention their deadname while they live… for others, we should do so soon after they die… for yet others we should wait longer… for yet others we should never mention it. When (and how) depends on a host of complexities that are subject specific. Blueboar (talk) 15:37, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

I think maybe some of us are simply arguing for RfC options ahead of the RfC, and i do not think our positions are shifting. Maybe we should proceed to open minedly agreeing to the RfC's wording. I have changed -sche suggested order (apologies but I think it works better) but how about:

Under what conditions should pre-transition names of deceased transgender people be included?

ONE
1A: For deceased transgender or non-binary people, include a pre-transition name if it is documented by reliable sources. (I think this is the current situation but I am also sure (know) that I am missing something in Newimpartial explanation)

1B: For any transgender or non-binary person who died after 1920, include a pre-transition name only if the person was notable under that name, i.e. where MOS:DEADNAME currently says "a living transgender or non-binary person", change this to "a living transgender or non-binary person, or one who died after 1920".

1C: For any transgender or non-binary person, include a pre-transition name only if the person was notable under that name: where MOS:DEADNAME currently says "a living transgender or non-binary person", change this to "a transgender or non-binary person". (A simple continuation of MOS:DEADNAME)

TWO
2A: Where inclusion of the Deadname is permitted under options 1A and 1B above the test for inclusion is the standard RSP Verifiability

2B: Where inclusion of the Deadname is permitted under options 1A and 1B above the test for inclusion is the higher test of "the practice of the best sources" ~ BOD ~ ^TALK 16:08, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

Sigh, I could not !vote for ANY of these (my opinion falls somewhere between 1A and 1B… and I don’t see the point of a 1920 cut-off date.) What I could support would be something that extends DEADNAME to the recently deceased (without a firm timeframe)… Yet also says that exceptions can be made on a case by case basis depending on a) the depth and quality of the sources discussing the subject under the pre-transition name, and b) the length of time since they died. Not sure how to word that into a snappy “option” for the RFC. Blueboar (talk) 19:31, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

Regards a 'snappy' Option D ~ I strongly believe any time frame in an option ought to be longer than the recently deceased. It about respecting the person as a human being, plus privacy and protection of the subjects family after death. After all MOS:DEADNAME states Treat the pre-notability name as a privacy interest separate from (and often greater than) the person's current name. I would suggest a generation 25 years at a mininium (or two generations 50?) (my personal vote probably differs). I fear that an unclear time frame might lead to endless arguments in articles, plus an equal number of arguments about who qualifies as an exception. ~ BOD ~ ^TALK 20:01, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

I respect that this is how you feel, but if you don’t include options you disagree with, you are intentionally skewing the RFC. Blueboar (talk) 20:29, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

Recently deceased is far too ambiguous. That could easily range from a couple months to ten years depending on who reads it. —El Millo (talk) 20:31, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

"Recently deceased" is specifically defined by WP:BDB - at least 6 months but may be up to two years depending on the nature of the person. --Masem (t) 20:42, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

I think you mean WP:BDP, but if it is somewhat clearly defined as six months, one year, two years at the outside there, then it is appropriate as an option to include here. —El Millo (talk) 20:53, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

Respectfully hang on :) I have in the proposal added at least one option I strongly disagree with and I am made it clear I am open to fourth option of a fixed period after death. Though I would have gone for a longer period, I am happy to follow a majority decision. ~ BOD ~ ^TALK 22:07, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

@Bodney re "I think this is the current situation": as the non-inclusion of such names in some articles (Sophie's was cited above) shows, the current situation is that such names are neither mandated nor forbidden, there's no guidance one way or the other, and people debate it case-by-case, so 1A would respresent a major change to mandating inclusion of such names (seemingly even for very recently deceased people). This doesn't mean it shouldn't be listed—I listed it myself in my earlier drafts—just that it's not the current situation, it's a major change. -sche (talk) 21:55, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

Replying to -sche Though the discussion has possibly moved on ...I happy for corrections and improvements. I accept I may be mistaken. I thought 1a reflected the situation were such names are neither mandated nor forbidden. (I personally think the Sophies case is not helpful as it is debateable if she was notable and verified as such in the reliable media before her transition (then mentioning her deadname would be allowed, under the current rule.)) ~ BOD ~ ^TALK 23:47, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

If people want "extend DEADNAME to recently deceased people only" as an option, then it should be listed, but FWIW it's clear from the discussion above that "continue to have no guidance on what to do in almost all cases" ("continue to have no guidance on what to do after 6-24 months") doesn't actually resolve (almost any of) the issue this thread is about. -sche (talk) 22:07, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

I don't disagree with either comment by -sche here, I think, but I would like to make things a bit more painfully clear if I can. Three points.

1) the status quo, as I understand it, is no guidance for deadnames for the standard BLP after death; current DEADNAME provisions apply after the usual BLP period (potentially up to 2 years). I want to nail this down because I see what appears to be confusion about both where the status quo line is and what principle applies on the other side of the line (which is no guidance, "The Wild West", at least as I see it).

2) I think the second barrel of the question (criteria where the current DEADNAME standard does not apply) should be decided only after the community has decided to have, or not to have, a cut-off other than the BLP threshold. This includes any decision to extend the application of the current Notability-based metric, whether using an unmoving date like 1920 or a movable feast like 25 or 50 years after death. I say this because, for me at least, the guidance to offer regarding all deadnames where the subject is more than 10 years dead would be very different from the guidance for all subjects deceased before 1920.

3) Aside from the Notability-based DEADNAME principle, I understand people here to have discussed at least three alternative lower thresholds. From most inclusive to most restrictive, they are: (1) sheer Verifiability of the deadname (2) inclusion of the deadname in (independent) Reliable Sources, and (3) use of the deadname in the best RS available, or as a best practice in those sources more generally. As an example of this last idea, if we have five articles on civil war-era people who adopted a gender expression contrasting with their assigned sex, and the three with recent academic biographies all have their deadnames treated in one way, we might be best off to follow that practice also for the two without sources of the same quality (or recency).

And no, I am not insisting that my preferred option appear in a second !vote (or a first). But I do want anyone trying to draw up a possible RfC to recognize the actual issues that have been raised by participants - and not primarily by me - thus far. Newimpartial (talk) 23:55, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

Blunter questions - Deadname after death

If we want to limit the initial question to just three options, then I would suggest:

1. The protections and limitations spelled out in WP:DEADNAME end when the subject dies.
2. The protections and limitations spelled out in WP:DEADNAME continue indefinitely.
3. The protections and limitations spelled out in WP:DEADNAME fade over time (details to be determined as a second phase if this option gains consensus).

I think this captures the essence of the question, without trying to nudge the responders into a predetermined answer. Blueboar (talk) 22:07, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

Well, I have some reservations about this formulation. The first option seems misstated, since BLP provisions in general do not end when the subject dies, but some time after.

Also, I don't think everyone with serious reservations about 1) or 2) agrees that the protections should fade over time. In particular, the idea of a fixed cut-off, like 1920, doesn't imply that anything would "fade over time" - older biographies would be treated one way, and newer ones another, but the line would not move. So the idea of "fading over time" is not clearly the one relevant third option, IMO. Newimpartial (talk) 23:06, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

We could do:

1) WP:DEADNAME is treated as anything else regarding BLPs, i.e. continues for the recently deceased

2) WP:DEADNAME continues indefinitely

3) 1) to those dead before X year and 2) for those dead after X year —El Millo (talk) 23:37, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

Sigh… I don’t think we are going to be able to hold an RFC… we can’t even agree on what the fundamental question should be. Blueboar (talk) 23:56, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

El Millo, please see what I have written above. I think we have to first answer the question, should the current deadname provisions be extended beyond the recent BLP period, either (1) to the beginning of time, (2) to those who have died since 1920, or (3) not at all. Only then do I think we could meaningfully discuss what guidance to offer (if any) for deadnames of those where the Notability-based rules do not apply. Newimpartial (talk) 00:00, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

Why not have four straight options regards the length of time, (wording to be improved) option A4 might lead to another RfC..

Poll A

A1) WP:DEADNAME is treated as anything else regarding BLPs, i.e. continues for the recently deceased

A2) WP:DEADNAME applies in perpetuity

• A3) WP:DEADNAME applies to those who died after 1920
• A4) WP:DEADNAME applies until 25 or 50 years after death

After that maybe have a seperate RfC regards the verifiability of the deadname. ~ BOD ~ ^TALK 00:36, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

Having 4(-5) options makes it harder for the closer, but I'm ok with that formulation of the question if it reflects what people want to ask. Newimpartial (talk) 00:52, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

I should have made it clear that I am open to any changes, espicially the date in A3 and the length of time in Option 4A. ~ BOD ~ ^TALK 01:00, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

I appreciate Blueboar's insight into what the three basic options under discussion are (even if the phrasing had issues as noted above), and insight that putting off deciding how long to continue applying DEADNAME (past any "recently deceased" period) until a second RfC could allow for a clearer picture of what the general consensus is than running an up/down ~vote on a specific cutoff or running multiple competing cutoffs, even if it means more work/time/RfCs are needed to arrive at guidelines. For wording, might I suggest something like "Should MOS:DEADNAME guidelines about pre-transition names:
A) apply only to living (and, to the extent indicated by WP:BLP, recently deceased) transgender and non-binary people,
B) apply to all transgender and non-binary people (living or deceased),
C) apply to all transgender and non-binary people from the modern era, timeframe to be determined by a later RfC (for example, those who died after 1920, or 1965).
Guidelines for cases not covered by MOS:DEADNAME may be discussed in a later RfC." -sche (talk) 02:30, 23 July 2021 (UTC) tweaked slightly -sche (talk) 05:50, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

Support: For my part, I am OK with this. This gradual approach does help us move forward towards a clear decision. ~ BOD ~ ^TALK 09:25, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

I still would request a “fades over time” option with no dates. Anyway… ping me when/if this goes live to the community. Blueboar (talk) 12:14, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

To clarify, do you want an option for fading it out after a period greater than the 6-24 month WP:BLP fade-out period of "recently deceased" (as in A), but shorter (or longer?) than C would cover? And/or do you want an option that, even after it's made more precise by the follow-up RfC that your wording (and my option B) calls for, "fades out" as a gradual thing rather than at a defined cutoff? (So editors could discuss for each article whether the guideline had faded out or not...? Is that different from what editors are doing now, discussing for each article whether the practices the guideline prescribes should be applied?) -sche (talk) 06:37, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

No set time… base the fade out on sources not time. Blueboar (talk) 12:09, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

There are things I like about this, but the problem I have with it is that it assumes deadnames will gradually establish themselves in sources over time. But what actually seems to happen is much more aleatoric - sometimes there is a wave of deadname publication in obituaries (which we don't register at the time due to the slow sunset of our BLP rules), and then the deadname may actually be less present in the references that follow. Or in the case if longer-dead people, there may be a wave of publications using (not just mentioning) the deadname in one decade, followed by another wave in which the deadname is scarcely mentioned. So, much love as I have for long-term equilibria, I don't really see how fade out provisions based on the sources would work. Newimpartial (talk) 13:19, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

Comment I am in favor of having the MOS:DEADNAME exclusion stop applying after a certain amount of time. I am concerned about carving out a special protection for a certain class of people. Would we never include a birth name for an African-American who has changed her or his name to something other than than the last name inherited from a slave owner who raped a woman ancestor? What about the person who was sexually abused by a parent who changed their last name before fame so as not to be associated with that parent? Or what about partner in an abusive marriage who divorced then later became notable — should we never mention that particular married name? I think that in all cases we should mention a birth name / DEADNAME after a reasonable & respectful amount of time has passed, & that we should grandmother in historical biographies. Peaceray (talk) 04:27, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

The boat for carving out a special protection for a certain class of people sailed some time ago - the names of trans people are treated differently than other changed names. The question is what the scope of this special protection ought to be, not whether it should exist. Newimpartial (talk) 04:35, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

As I wrote, I think that MOS:DEADNAME should cease to apply after a reasonable & respectful amount of time has passed, & that we should grandmother in historical biographies. Peaceray (talk) 05:07, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

This is true, but the reason for that has always had to do with BLP, due to the potential for harm to specific living individuals. To extend this carveout from the threshold for all other information (WP:V+WP:DUE) from living to dead people (beyond the standard WP:BDP period) is entirely novel. Crossroads ^-talk- 05:34, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

I am still in favor (but this would complicate any RFC) of a "past name" policy that incorporates not only deadnames of trans individuals but also pre-marriage names, immigrant name changes, etc. that works equivalently on when we would include a past name, though obviously, the care in how that is presented in context in the case of a trans individual is unique to those situations because of the clear identity issue. I think that when DEADNAME was proposed, the sole focus was entirely on living trans individuals, and there wasn't much thought put to deceased or other cases, but when you look at all aspects combined, it makes a lot of sense. --Masem (t) 13:47, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

Dutch names in article Des van Jaarsveldt

I was wondering if I could get some assistance with the page Des van Jaarsveldt please. He's a Rhodesian-South African with a Dutch surname and I was wondering would it be correct to refer to him in the article as "van Jaarsveldt" or "Van Jaarsveldt"? The C of E God Save the Queen! (talk) 16:25, 20 July 2021 (UTC)

Government bio infoboxes, should they be decapitalized or not.

Very straight forward & simple question. Should we
A) Keep the titles capitalized in the infoboxes or
B) Decapitalize in the infoboxes.

Examples-A: 46th President of the United States, 23rd Prime Minister of Canada
Examples-B 46th president of the United States, 23rd prime minister of Canada

NOTE: This is about the infoboxes 'only' & naturally, will affect hundreds of bios.
GoodDay (talk) 18:45, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

NOTE: This RfC is only about ordanalized titles, such as those in the above examples, since those are the ones MOS:JOBTITLE would have us lowercase. ― Tartan357 ^Talk 02:45, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

Survey

• B: There are compelling reasons why MOS:JOBTITLE was adopted. When these offices are modified by an order, i.e., 45th, the guideline tells us they should not be capitalized. I'm concerned about consistency here. The de facto situation is JOBTITLE is applied inconsistently: we use lowercase for modified offices in short descriptions and article bodies. Why should infoboxes be an exception? Either get rid of JOBTITLE or apply it evenly. ― Tartan357 ^Talk 19:26, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

  Hi Tartan357. Re "[...] the guideline tells us they should not be capitalized", can you please provide the relevant quote from the guideline, to clartify what you are referring to. Thanks. Nurg (talk) 03:20, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

Nurg, the following is from MOS:JOBTITLES:

[Job titles] are capitalized only in the following cases:

...

• When a formal title for a specific entity (or conventional translation thereof) is addressed as a title or position in and of itself, is not plural, is not preceded by a modifier (emphasis mine) (including a definite or indefinite article), and is not a reworded description:

Richard Nixon was President of the United States.

Nixon was the 37th president of the United States.

― Tartan357 ^Talk 05:08, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

• C - Does not matter. Just don’t edit war about it. Blueboar (talk) 21:16, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

There's no edit-warring & we all hope that there won't be, after this RFC is closed & a ruling is given :) GoodDay (talk) 06:26, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

• D - put the ordinal someplace else. It's a separate datum and doesn't belong there in the first place. If it were moved, the objection would go away. --Khajidha (talk) 00:37, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
• A - capitalise. JOBTITLES is already stupid, but extending it further would be perverse; infoboxes are clearly different beasts than running text in any case. I note that "D" above, while a good attempt, doesn't help with titles with more than one word like "Prime Minister" or "Secretary of State". Frickeg (talk) 00:44, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

  Frickeg, actually, it would, since the ordinal is the only thing that would trigger lowercase per MOS:JOBTITLE. ― Tartan357 ^Talk 02:43, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

  Tartan357, it doesn't help the issue because you still need to decide whether to capitalise as "Prime Minister" or "Prime minister". Frickeg (talk) 06:11, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

  Frickeg, without the ordinal, it would definitely be Prime Minister per MOS:JOBTITLE. ― Tartan357 ^Talk 06:22, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

  Thus opening up another dispute, keep or remove ordinals. GoodDay (talk) 06:27, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

  GoodDay, only if we entertain option D, which is honestly beyond the scope of this RfC. ― Tartan357 ^Talk 06:34, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

  Options C & D should be ignored, as they're not a part of the RFC questionaire. They only serve to muddy the waters. GoodDay (talk) 06:37, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

  The entire point of option D is that the "problem" only exists because we have adopted a poor design for the infobox. It is designed to fix the real problem. --Khajidha (talk) 12:01, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

  There'd be no problem if the infoboxes were left alone, as they have been for years. Ordinal with capitalized jobtitle. GoodDay (talk) 15:50, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

  That's just silly, like you're saying there'd be no problem if only there was no problem. ― Tartan357 ^Talk 18:27, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

  WP:JOBTITLES has been over-reaching since last year. There comes a point, when enough is enough. GoodDay (talk) 18:34, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

  GoodDay, then the proper course of action is to start an RfC to undo JOBTITLES altogether, not to try to carve out arbitrary exceptions to it. Although I prefer the status quo, my primary concern is respecting consensus. ― Tartan357 ^Talk 18:37, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

• One RFC at a time, please. GoodDay (talk) 18:39, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

  GoodDay, this is your RfC, and you didn't make it about JOBTITLES, you made it about this narrow issue. So "I don't like JOBTITLES" is not a valid argument here. JOBTITLES is a community-established guideline that is not up for debate here. You're proposing an exception to JOBTITLES that only applies to infoboxes, yet you have failed to articulate an infobox-specific justification. As the one proposing an exception, the burden is on you to provide that. ― Tartan357 ^Talk 03:52, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

  The options have been given. Editors involving themselves in this RFC will decide the outcome. GoodDay (talk) 04:13, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

• A, uppercase, per Frickeg. Randy Kryn (talk) 00:59, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
• A, uppercase, as we've been doing for years. Honestly, what's next? Lower casing article titles? Gotta draw the line, somewhere. GoodDay (talk) 01:03, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
• C – Does not matter. Not one reader in hundred would notice the difference or care if they did. Find something else in the article that needs improving, that a reader will notice. Wasted Time R (talk) 01:06, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
• B, as per example, but not automatically decap as per "simple question". I see no reason why an infobox should have different treatment than the rest of the encyclopedia. MOS:JOBTITLE applies and should apply consistently everywhere. The comment about "Lower casing article titles" is silly, as GoodDay must know, because lowercasing entire titles is not in keeping with our MOS (and would be surprising to readers expecting a competently written encyclopedia). And of course, we actually do downcase parts of titles appropriately, as at Lieutenant governor (Canada) or Lieutenant governor (United States), for example. — JohnFromPinckney (talk / edits) 01:28, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

  Yes, I'm well aware of those half lowercase article titles, which are usually done without benefit of an RM, like Deputy prime minister of Canada. -- GoodDay (talk) 02:46, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

• A, uppercase; I don't see any convincing reasons to lowercase the titles in the infobox. Some1 (talk) 01:05, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

  Some1, the burden is on those proposing an exception to our existing guideline, not the other way around. WP:JOBTITLES tells us it should be lowercase. If we're going to carve out an exception to that community-established standard for infoboxes, we'll need a reason specific to infoboxes for that. WP:IJUSTDONTLIKEIT isn't that. ― Tartan357 ^Talk 03:58, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

  The "result" of this RfC can either reaffirm MOS:JOBTITLES or carve out an exception to MOS:JOBTITLES. Some1 (talk) 04:30, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

  Some1, that's correct. And you just voted to carve out an exception. Can you affirmatively explain why you think there should be one? ― Tartan357 ^Talk 04:36, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

• A, uppercase, per GoodDay Rexh17 (talk) 04:15, 25 July 2021 (UTC)
• A, uppercase, per the above. Sea Ane (talk) 16:09, 25 July 2021 (UTC)
• Leaning towards A, as I find that having a title being lowercased in the infobox, particularly when it's on its own line and demarcated in a box, looks strange to me. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 17:05, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

  @Tenryuu: that's not a valid argument. It might look weird to most of you because, being native English speakers, you're used to titles being in title case, but as I said below, we have a policy (WP:SENTENCECASE) that states we don't treat titles or infoboxes any different than running text when it comes to capitalization, we use sentence case always. As we can see in the lead section for President of the United States, it is written in lowercase if it's not the beginning of the sentence (The president of the United States (POTUS)...). —El Millo (talk) 18:40, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

  The difference is that it's not being used as prose, which I normally copyedit in lowercase, and what stands by policy still rubs me the wrong way. I've said my piece and I stand by it. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 20:15, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

  Why in the world does Wikipedia have a policy that does not follow what most native English speakers are used to? Seems like that's a pretty strong reason to just chuck that policy out the window. --Khajidha (talk) 11:28, 28 July 2021 (UTC)

• A, uppercase. MOS:JOBTITLE makes (some) sense in prose, but not in infoboxes. KidAd • SPEAK 18:45, 25 July 2021 (UTC)
• B, b-b-because I have not been convinced that offices in infobox headers should be exempted from two reasonable guidelines, namely MOS:JOBTITLES and MOS:HEADCAPS. MOS:JOBTITLES already allows for far, far more capitalization than academic publishers do, and significantly more than the media do. It is only "stupid" for allowing so much leeway. The very least that can be done for Wikipedia to look serious is to capitalize no more than that. If the capitalization is that important, just do away with the ordinal in the infobox. "45th president" is not an office anyway. Surtsicna (talk) 21:04, 25 July 2021 (UTC)
• A, uppercase, MOS:JOBTITLES talks about used generically. So taking about just in the infobox, I don't believe it is being used generically there, you aren't using it in a sentance so makes more sense to be in capitals.— NZFC^(talk)(cont) 22:38, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

  NZFC, MOS:HEADCAPS tells us that infoboxes also use sentence case, so that's not a valid argument. ― Tartan357 ^Talk 22:42, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

• Just change it to: “President of the United States (45th)”… then everyone will be happy. Blueboar (talk) 22:48, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

  Novel idea. But, I highly doubt it would catch on :) GoodDay (talk) 22:54, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

  This is what I mentioned above as option D. It's not the exact spot I would choose, but I wouldn't object to that location either. --Khajidha (talk) 11:44, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

• B. Chicago Manual of Style talks about this exact thing, specifying lower case titles when the title itself is being discussed. Caps are reserved for immediately before the name, as in Prime Minister Pedro Sánchez. Binksternet (talk) 23:59, 25 July 2021 (UTC)
• B – No convincing argument has been offered for capitalizing this in infoboxes when it's not capitalized in prose, nor for capitalizing it when no other infobox items are capitalized. Wikipedia treats infoboxes and prose equally when it comes to capitalization, sentence case is used. —El Millo (talk) 00:03, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
• A as per above explanations. The Drover's Wife (talk) 02:46, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
• B per existing guideline, and example in, MOS:JOBTITLES. The word "president" etc in that context is a common noun. There's no reason for using different style guidelines in an infobox. Mitch Ames (talk) 13:10, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
• A as per Frickeg, KidAd, Tenryuu 🐲 and GoodDay. Having the titles of what are highest offices of state in 'lower case' do look a bit strange. Are not President, Vice President, Prime minister, Grand Duke, Emperor, Chancellor or Chairman all proper nouns and thus should normally be capitalised. Regarding info boxes were the text is not even a sentence, were the title as in an office of state is also effectively a secondary title in an infobox. e.g. Barak Obama, 44th President of the United States; Mike Pence, 48th Vice President of the United States or Winston Churchill, Prime Minister of the United Kingdom. (Note: I am no grammar expert) ~ BOD ~ ^TALK 16:45, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

  No, Bodney, none of them are proper nouns. They are all common nouns. Wikipedia's MOS:JOBTITLES, The Chicago Manual of Style, AP Stylebook, the Oxford Manual of Style, etc, all clearly state that these words should not be capitalized. Academics and journalists do not reverently capitalize offices and neither should Wikipedia. Surtsicna (talk) 17:32, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

  Bodney, MOS:HEADCAPS and MOS:CAPS tell us that infoboxes do use sentence case, though. Why should job titles be the singular exception to this? ― Tartan357 ^Talk 19:33, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

Bodney, I hear ya. GoodDay (talk) 06:31, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

• A per the arguments already made. Turnagra (talk) 19:19, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
• B Unless we make a guideline that infobox titles don't follow the same capitalization guidelines are other titles and headings. There's nothing unique to the intersection of infoboxes and jobtitle caps. Dicklyon (talk) 19:28, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
• A JOBTITLES makes sense in running prose but in the infobox or other places on a page where sentence fragments would be used - article titles, categories, etc. - the use of capitalization does not infer with running prose. --Masem (t) 20:14, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

  Masem, MOS:HEADCAPS and MOS:CAPS tell us that infoboxes do use sentence case. ― Tartan357 ^Talk 20:55, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

  I read that if we were trying to construct a sentence fragment. I would still argue that a job title, isolated from any other prose, is a unique case that should be capitalized, since we can't tell otherwise in context which other version of caps should be used. --Masem (t) 04:43, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

  Masem, why can't we tell otherwise in context which other version of caps should be used? I'm trying to understand that statement, but am having a hard time. MOS:CAPS says sentence fragments pretty much everywhere, including infoboxes, follow the same capitalization rules as running text. And we have a clear capitalization rule for running text in this case. Why is an exception necessary? ― Tartan357 ^Talk 05:37, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

  If we were captioning a picture with a short phrase like "Bill Clinton, the 42nd president of the U.S.", there would still be enough context of a partial sentence to know that we're using the office (rather than title) form prescribed by JOBTITLES to keep that lowercase. In the infobox, just saying "42nd President of the U.S." is not enough context to determine if we're talking the office vs. title, and I would argued that implicit in the infobox that this is nearly always meant to be considered the title form. Mind you, I know one specific example of JOBTITLES says that "<cardinal> <position>" makes that an office, and to that point, I would actually argue that we should be presenting these in infoboxes as "President of the United States (42nd)" as there no official title of "42nd President of the United States". --Masem (t) 13:24, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

  implicit in the infobox that this is nearly always meant to be considered the title form — The infobox on Bill Clinton is {{Infobox officeholder}} which has a field "office", not "title". Mitch Ames (talk) 13:52, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

  That's only obvious if you are reading the wikitext, not the rendered text. --Masem (t) 21:55, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

  As an additional comment here, if the parameter name and expected value is the "office" and editors are entering things like "45th President of the U.S." which is not an office, then its being misused. On the other hand, using "President of the U.S. (45th)" is an office title with the added clarity of which ordinal position held, and that would conform to JOBTITLE without a problem. --Masem (t) 16:33, 28 July 2021 (UTC)

We must keep in mind, that 46th & President of the United States (in the Biden article) are separate entities from each other, in the infobox. That there's no suggestion of an office called 46th President of the United States. GoodDay (talk) 18:42, 28 July 2021 (UTC)

• Masem, since we are presenting it with the ordinal in front, and JOBTITLES gives us an example of that being lowercase, that's what we should do here. ― Tartan357 ^Talk 22:04, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

Hello Masem. IMHO, we should continue what we've been doing for years. Keep the jobtitles captalized in the infoboxes-in-question, whether they're accompanied by ordinals or not. GoodDay (talk) 05:46, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

Once again, a statement of preference with no reasoning to back it up. ― Tartan357 ^Talk 06:12, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

• A The decapitalised version just looks wrong IMO. Number 57 20:52, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

  Number 57, MOS:HEADCAPS and MOS:CAPS tell us that infoboxes use sentence case. Why should job titles be the singular exception? ― Tartan357 ^Talk 20:56, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

  A job title is not a sentence, though. GoodDay (talk) 20:59, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

  MOS:HEADCAPS and MOS:CAPS tell us to use sentence case for things that aren't sentences:

  Wikipedia uses sentence case for sentences, article titles, section titles, table headers, image captions, list entries (in most cases), and entries in infoboxes and similar templates, among other things. Any instructions in MoS about the start of a sentence apply to items using sentence case.

  Also, I know you know better at this point. Please stop misrepresenting our guidelines. ― Tartan357 ^Talk 21:03, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

I'm with ya, Number57. GoodDay (talk) 06:36, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

• A. (1) This particular usage is the "job title" case specified in JOBTITLES, and not the "officeholder" case (Vice President of the United States vs. List of vice presidents of the United States). (2) I view the ordinal as separate from the job title. It could be just as easily be expressed as "Vice President of the United States (47th)", which you can't do in prose, but you can do here because the ordinal is separate. I would support moving the ordinal to an end parenthetical like I have demonstrated if there is truly a JOBTITLES issue here, but I don't think there is. — Goszei (talk) 23:19, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

Not certain, but I think an attempt (maybe via RM) was made in the past, to move the veep article to Vice president of the United States. Thankfully, it didn't succeed. GoodDay (talk) 23:54, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

OK, but moving the ordinal to a parenthesis at the end of the office would aesthetically be a hundred times worse than either of the two options of this RfC. PraiseVivec (talk) 16:12, 28 July 2021 (UTC)

Indeed. GoodDay (talk) 18:37, 28 July 2021 (UTC)

Another straw man. That RM failed because that would have gone against JOBTITLE as the title is unmodified. ― Tartan357 ^Talk 18:39, 28 July 2021 (UTC)

• A. This seems a decent place to invoke the 5th pillar of Wikipedia (and maybe even WP:IAR) and let common sense prevail over rigid adherence to what are only guidelines after all. We should not forbid lowercase or sentence case where it is appropriate, but neither should we require it. To maintain formal, professional appearances, title case or other creative capitalizations may be warranted. --Animalparty! (talk) 21:43, 29 July 2021 (UTC)
• A JOBTITLES is was created due to the prevelance of decapitalisation by some style guides in prose like Chichago manual, etc. Those manuals say nothing about infoboxes. We should capitialise here becuase to match what the title of the article is. Prose clearly differs from infoboxes. In addition, JOBTITLES has been contested for a long time now and per other reasons noted above.  Spy-cicle💥  ^Talk? 22:53, 29 July 2021 (UTC)

  Your argument for special treatment of infobox content on Wikipedia hinges on the fact that CMOS doesn't mention infoboxes? I guess I have to concede that prose clearly differs from infoboxes in the sense that CMOS talks about prose and fails to even mention Wikipedia infoboxes, but holy cow, what a stretch. And your premise that JOBTITLES is a direct result of CMOS, et al., needs some sourcing before I concede that. — JohnFromPinckney (talk / edits) 23:53, 29 July 2021 (UTC)

  In all these style guides that we often use evalualate the usage and what we often based our MOS on like for instance, The Chicago Manual of Style, please cite where such capitalisiation for JOBTITLES in relation to infoboxes applies. I am not saying CMOS determined our MOS, I was giving one core example as why such a guideline is often argued for us to have.  Spy-cicle💥  ^Talk? 00:42, 30 July 2021 (UTC)

  Spy-cicle, please cite where such capitalisiation for JOBTITLES in relation to infoboxes applies. I can do that. From MOS:CAPS:

  Wikipedia uses sentence case for sentences, article titles, section titles, table headers, image captions, list entries (in most cases), and entries in infoboxes and similar templates, among other things. Any instructions in MoS about the start of a sentence apply to items using sentence case.

  ― Tartan357 ^Talk 00:45, 30 July 2021 (UTC)

  Apologies if I did not make myself clear in my previous comment. What I meant was do you know of any external Manual of Styles (like CMOS) which say to decapitalise job titles in infoboxes, specifically.  Spy-cicle💥  ^Talk? 00:54, 30 July 2021 (UTC)

  Let's not forget that even if A succeeds, everything else in infoboxes will still use sentence case per MOS:CAPS. So, job titles would be the only exception, which would be quite strange. ― Tartan357 ^Talk 23:58, 29 July 2021 (UTC)

  Indeed, Spy-cicle. It's increasingly obvious, that WP:JOBTITLES needs some kinda adjustments. Many editors are against imposing lower-casing in the infoboxes, concerning job titles/offices. GoodDay (talk) 00:49, 30 July 2021 (UTC)

  And many editors are for imposing lower-casing in the infoboxes, concerning job titles/offices. Now, GoodDay, please learn how and when to comment in an RfC. — JohnFromPinckney (talk / edits) 04:07, 30 July 2021 (UTC)

Discussion

The documentation for Template:Infobox officeholder uses initial caps in its example (...to state that the officeholder is the nth holder of the office, for example "42nd President of the United States".) as does the example at Template:Infobox officeholder/example#General office. Just noting that these might have to be changed depending on the consensus of this RfC. Aoi (青い) (talk) 20:15, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

Query - Do any of the WP:RS, particularly reference works, published elsewhere use initial small letters in their boxes and tables? Or would Wikipedia be a first mover in doing this? Newimpartial (talk) 02:10, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

Basically, it's a dispute over whether or not a job title in the infobox of a bio, should be decapitalized, merely because it has an ordinal in front of it. GoodDay (talk) 02:54, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

Right, but I am wondering how other reference works handle this and similar cases. Newimpartial (talk) 03:05, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

Don't know. GoodDay (talk) 03:07, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

Newimpartial, see this ODNB entry and, for example, this Britannica entry. Surtsicna (talk) 17:46, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

So could you explain to me what appears to be the inconsistent capitalization in Britannica's infobox? I don't see a box in oxforfdnb so I can't comment on that one. Newimpartial (talk) 13:11, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

The distinction being made by some editors between the infobox and the rest of the article is incorrect per WP:SENTENCECASE. We always use sentence case, even in infoboxes and titles, just as in running text. Whether it should be capitalized or not, being in the infobox can't be part of the argument in favor or against it. —El Millo (talk) 01:12, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

It is being argued concerning the infoboxes, thus the RFC. GoodDay (talk) 02:18, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

We have a policy that says not to treat infoboxes different to running text when it comes to capitalization. Even though Frickeg said that infoboxes are clearly different beasts than running text in any case, it is clear it doesn't apply to capitalization. Those in favor of treating them differently should argue why WP:SENTENCECASE wouldn't apply to this specific case. —El Millo (talk) 03:56, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

Facu-el Millo, right. MOS:HEADCAPS tells us that sentence case is used in infoboxes. So the argument that infoboxes are clearly different beasts than running text does not hold water. The only way to capitalize the job titles in infoboxes without creating a glaring conflict with the rest of the MOS guidance on capitalization would be to get rid of JOBTITLES. If infoboxes use sentence case, and sentence case treatment of these titles is lowercase, why should they be uppercase in infoboxes? ― Tartan357 ^Talk 04:19, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

For what it's worth, WP:SENTENCECASE doesn't apply to infoboxes while MOS:HEADCAPS defers to capitalization rules documented elsewhere for proper nouns. So if an RfC were to document that these titles should be treated as proper nouns in tables and infoboxes (which is what I believe most publishers do, now, which as I understand was the main factor cited by JOBTITLES supporters), I don't see why implantation would be a problem. Newimpartial (talk) 16:39, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

We shall see what's implemented & what isn't, when this RFC concludes. GoodDay (talk) 16:56, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

@Newimpartial: MOS:HEADCAPS states: Use sentence case, not title case, capitalization in all section headings. Capitalize the first letter of the first word, but leave the rest lower case except for proper names and other items that would ordinarily be capitalized in running text. ... The same applies to the titles of articles, table headers and captions, the headers of infoboxes and navigation templates (underlining mine). The first footnote in MOS:CAPS states: Wikipedia uses sentence case for sentences, article titles, section titles, table headers, image captions, list entries (in most cases), and entries in infoboxes and similar templates, among other things (underlining mine). If the consensus of this RfC says we should capitalize this in an infobox, it should also apply to running text, or, at the very least, they should explain why an exception is reasonable. —El Millo (talk) 18:40, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

I'm afraid we are not talking about the headers of infoboxes, and the relevant phrase in the footnote is actually list entries (in most cases), and entries in infoboxes and similar templates. I wouldn't be against an RfC to further nuance the footnote, but it is already somewhat less than imperative. My impression is that the relevant examples from other publishers do actually treat list entries and infobox-equivalents differently than running text when it comes to capitalization, so I don't see why we should be unable to follow suit. Newimpartial (talk) 18:58, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

Many many publishers treat titles and headers differently than running text, but Wikipedia doesn't. Those !voting A are in favor of an exception to policies and guidelines, but are arguing as if it wasn't an exception, saying things like infoboxes are clearly different beasts than running text in any case; I don't see any convincing reasons to lowercase the titles in the infobox; and MOS:JOBTITLE makes (some) sense in prose, but not in infoboxes. All of these are already flawed, because they assume something that isn't the case in Wikipedia. You all have to argue for why we should have an exception to the rule of sentence case in this case in particular. Those would be arguments for treating title and header capitalization different across all cases, which is not what this RfC is about. Yet, many keep repeating it, and I think it has to do with what I said earlier of native English speakers being used to seeing title case used for titles, but that's not what Wikipedia does. I honestly think all these should have to be disregarded, and !voters should be asked to give a different, valid argument for the exception, because all of these are basically WP:IDONTLIKEIT and are against the Manual of Style. —El Millo (talk) 19:10, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

"...all these should have to be disregarded, and !voters should be asked to give a different, valid argument...". With all due respect, you don't get to arbitrate the rules of this RFC or its outcome. If there's a consensus to go with option 'A', then that's what we will go with. If there's a consensus to go with option 'B', then that's what we will go with. The editors will decide. GoodDay (talk) 19:21, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

El Millo, you state that many publishers treat titles and headers differently than running text, but Wikipedia doesn't as though it were one of the Pillars, and as though it obviously applied to tables and infobox entries. So far the only evidence that it applies to the latter at all is a weakly-worded footnote to an MOS guideline, and I have no idea when (or if) that footnote was even discussed. Compared to a reasonably well-publicized RfC on a policy page, the footnote doesn't seem to embody a very high WP:CONSENSUSLEVEL. You certainly don't get to argue that all !votes to treat infobox entries differently represent invalid reasoning because it is a given that WP:JOBTITLES applies to all text equally. That is for the community to decide, not a quasi-judicial argument. Newimpartial (talk) 19:34, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

I was answering to GoodDay but an edit conflict came up, so this it kind of an answer to both. I don't care for this particular RfC, I care for valid arguments being put forth by editors, that's why I haven't !voted, so don't worry about WIKILAWYERING because I'm not trying to win, I'm striving for compliance with the rule in the validity of the arguments. In fact, I think it looks good if it's capitalized. But that, as all other arguments offered so far, are just variations of WP:IDONTLIKEIT. I just want those in favor of A to come up with something valid. I myself can't think of a good argument for capitalizing it in infoboxes but not in prose right now. There are no exceptions of sentence case already laid out anywhere that generally apply to any type of text, not titles, not section headers, not infobox items, not infobox headers, not image captions. If you want there to be an exception for sentence case that only applies to government titles only in infoboxes, come up with a logical argument for it. With the way the Manual of Style is currently written, you either keep it sentence case in the infobox, or you capitalize it everywhere, including in prose, and it could be justified based on what reliable sources do with government titles or something to that effect. But the way the RfC is being proposed, you have to come up with a specific argument in favor of capitalizing it in the infobox and not in prose, while also not capitalizing every other infobox item everywhere else. I'm worried that if this RfC is accepted with these kinds of arguments, then just any kind of difference in capitalization in infoboxes or in article titles will be justified in the same way ("it looks good", "it looks bad", "it seems weird to me"), using this RfC as precedent. —El Millo (talk) 20:03, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

The MOS-in-question is not a commandment, which can never be amended or rejected, in whole or in part. Editors will decide 'here', how & where the MOS-in-question, gets implemented. How each editor chooses to pick an option (in this RFC), will do so as they wish to. Either they'll pick 'A', 'B' or neither. GoodDay (talk) 20:15, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

See WP:NOTVOTE. ― Tartan357 ^Talk 20:20, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

If the RFC's outcome is 'option A'? That's the option that'll be implemented. 20:22, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

Are you willing to ignore WP:NOTVOTE just because you'd like the outcome? —El Millo (talk) 20:34, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

Gentlemen, whatever the consensus of this RFC is (A or B), I'll respect it. I hope, you'll both do likewise. GoodDay (talk) 20:39, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

Yes, and that consensus will be decided in accordance with WP:NOTVOTE, despite your repeated suggestions to the contrary. ― Tartan357 ^Talk 21:15, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

I haven't suggested anything, accept that I'll respect the consensus of this RFC, whatever that will be. GoodDay (talk) 21:20, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

I'd like to note that regardless of the outcome of this RfC, MOS:JOBTITLES will continue to exist. So, arguing here that you don't like the guideline is pointless. This is not the place to take out your frustration with that guideline. It exists. It will keep existing. This RfC is about whether to create an exception to the guideline, for which we would need a cogent infobox-specific rationale. ― Tartan357 ^Talk 04:10, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

The consensus reached in this RFC will be respected & carried out, no matter the outcome. GoodDay (talk) 04:15, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

GoodDay, you think this RfC could overturn JOBTITLES altogether? That seems totally out of the scope you set out in the question, and it certainly isn't one of the two options you provided. You said yourself that additional options would muddy the waters. Make up your mind. ― Tartan357 ^Talk 04:22, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

Option 'A', is the status quo across many political bios, in terms of ordinal/jobtitle in the infoboxes. GoodDay (talk) 04:24, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

GoodDay, what does that have to do with what I just said? ― Tartan357 ^Talk 04:25, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

I deal with practical matters on this project. Go over to (for example) the bios of the Australian prime ministers & 'remove' the ordinals & lowecase the offices. Then report back, whether or not you were reverted. GoodDay (talk) 04:27, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

GoodDay, I really couldn't care less how many people revert me. We have guidelines, and an RfC is needed to change them. Please stop with these weird appeals to popularity and WP:IJDLI arguments and just focus on the issue at hand, with arguments grounded in our guidelines. ― Tartan357 ^Talk 04:34, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

You're becoming tiresome, tbh. You are free of course, to continue repeating your arguments. But please, direct them towards somebody else. GoodDay (talk) 04:39, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

It should really not be too much to ask that we have logic-based reasons for doing things. In fact, it's required. I'm getting a little tired myself of articulating guideline-based arguments and being met with these non-sequiturs about how the masses disagree with me so I must be wrong. ― Tartan357 ^Talk 04:45, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

I'm not really sure if this is the proper place to put this because of all the different threading and outdenting, but if "native English speakers [are] used to seeing title case used for titles" then that's a pretty good argument that Wikipedia needs to do it that way. --Khajidha (talk) 11:50, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

I have never understood the logic of capitalizing in: “In January, Smith was inaugurated as the President of the United States”… but not capitalizing in: “In January, Smith was inaugurated as the 49th president of the United States.”

I understand that style guides say that adding an ordinal changes the capitalization of the title… but I don’t understand why they say this. Blueboar (talk) 13:21, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

That some editors actually want to apply it to infoboxes, is perplexing. GoodDay (talk) 14:28, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

Furthermore, how (for example) "29th Governor General of Canada" is considered a sentence, is beyond me. Now, if the infobox read, "Julie Payette was the 29th Governor General of Canada"? then that would be a sentence. GoodDay (talk) 14:38, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

Nobody is saying it is or should be considered a sentence. People are saying that it should be in sentence case. Sentence case ≠ sentence. Surtsicna (talk) 17:28, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

46th President of the United States on its own (i.e. in the infobox), is not a sentence. The ordinal doesn't modify anything, the office directs to the intended article. GoodDay (talk) 17:32, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

Could you please read again what I wrote? Surtsicna (talk) 17:48, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

Why then, are you pushing to either delete 46th from the infobox (in the case of Biden) or lower-casing to president of the United States in the infobox? GoodDay (talk) 17:51, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

Because text in infoboxes should be in sentence case per WP:SENTENCECASE. Surtsicna (talk) 17:54, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

Not in infoboxes. Thus the crux of our disagreement on this topic. GoodDay (talk) 17:58, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

How did you conclude that? Does it say anywhere that it doesn't apply to infoboxes? —El Millo (talk) 18:20, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

It doesn't specially include infoboxes. Are you (plural) going to start moving article titles next, to lowercase? GoodDay (talk) 18:30, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

If by lowercase you mean sentence case, then that's what is correct and what is done, and it's exactly what WP:SENTENCECASE says, unless of course for titles of works and proper nouns (are you now suggesting article titles should be in title case?). If by lowercase you mean actual full lowercase including the first letter, that's never even been suggested, so obviously no. Asking this doesn't seem particularly well-intentioned or intellectually honest. —El Millo (talk) 19:01, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

In the infobox, the jobtitle with an ordinal, is not a sentence. GoodDay (talk) 19:08, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

You already said that immediately above and it was refuted. Sentence case doesn't mean that whatever it's applied to is or becomes a sentence. We apply sentence case to article titles and that doesn't make them sentences. We apply it to section headings and that doesn't make them sentences. —El Millo (talk) 19:18, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

We're only going in circles here. You & I are never going to agree on this topic. GoodDay (talk) 19:31, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

My apologies; it is not WP:SENTENCECASE that says sentence case should be applied in infoboxes but MOS:HEADCAPS. And once again, nobody is saying that this is a sentence, so there is no point in bringing that up for the umpteenth time. Surtsicna (talk) 20:17, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

At least we agree, that we disagree. GoodDay (talk) 20:41, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

MOS:CAPS states: Wikipedia uses sentence case for sentences, article titles, section titles, table headers, image captions, list entries (in most cases), and entries in infoboxes and similar templates, among other things. Any instructions in MoS about the start of a sentence apply to items using sentence case. That is very clear. You can't just say "we agree to disagree". Sentence case applies to infoboxes. It's in the MOS. There is zero room for interpretation in that quote I just provided. You're starting to veer into disruptive WP:ICANTHEARYOU territory with these comments. ― Tartan357 ^Talk 01:54, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

A jobtitle (i.e. office) within an infobox, 'is not' a sentence. Now, stop arm twisting me. GoodDay (talk) 02:11, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

Do you really not understand that sentence case and sentences are separate things or are you just pretending not to understand it? —El Millo (talk) 02:17, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

My read is that they are pretending not to understand because they don't want it to be true. Which may end with them being taken to WP:AE if they continue down this path. ― Tartan357 ^Talk 02:20, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

I've chosen option "A" in this RFC & I'm not going to change my position. Neither of you have convinced me to change that position. GoodDay (talk) 02:23, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

That's fine but not what we're discussing here. You seem to have a habit of changing the subject abruptly like this if you're unable to refute a point. The question of whether infoboxes use sentence case is settled. Per MOS:CAPS, they do. No more of this nonsense, please. ― Tartan357 ^Talk 02:25, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

You & I have nothing more to discuss. GoodDay (talk) 02:36, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

Blueboar, according to MOS:JOBTITLES it would be "inaugurated as the president of the United States" because of the definite article, regardless of whether there is an ordinal. Therefore the ordinal does not change anything. Of course, according to virtually every English-language academic style guide in the world, it would be lower case with or without the definite article anyway. Surtsicna (talk) 17:25, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

FWIW, to the 2 or 3 editors who have been implementing lower-casing in the intros of bio articles, per WP:JOBTITLES? You haven't been very consistent in your implementations. See the bios of Canadian, Australian & New Zealand governors general, for example. Also, you haven't even been consistent with the intros of the bios of the prime ministers of those countries. And that's just a tiny section of such bios across Wikipedia. GoodDay (talk) 17:08, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

I look at the example of the UK's Home Secretary. They are called, across all news media, the Home Secretary. I don't think I've ever once seen them be referred to as the home secretary. - Aussie Article Writer (talk) 20:19, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

For the sake of other participants, I should note here too that this assertion is not true. Surtsicna (talk) 07:43, 28 July 2021 (UTC)

Query re office vs title

The lede for the Prime Minister of New Zealand article says, "Originally the head of government was titled "colonial secretary" or "first minister". This was changed in 1869 to "premier". That title remained in use for more than 30 years, until Richard Seddon informally changed it to "prime minister" in 1901 during his tenure in the office."

The infobox for Richard Seddon says, "15th Prime Minister of New Zealand". He was the 15th person to fill the office of head of government. He was the 1st person to hold the title "Prime Minister".

Does the item in the infobox that this RFC is discussing refer to the office, or to the title of the officeholder? I presume that many supporters of option B in the RFC would say it's referring to the office, so I'm interested in what supporters of option A would say. Nurg (talk) 23:54, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

What do New Zealand sources call him? GoodDay (talk) 23:58, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

I don't know. Nurg (talk) 01:21, 30 July 2021 (UTC)

Leader of the opposition

Should Leader of the Opposition be capitalised? The page and all its subsidiary pages are mostly unfixed, and an editor on Singapore's page has been persistent in capitalising it, and even went back to capitalise the version on the UK's page. I am taking my cue from Chief of Naval Operations, which I inquired about last year, in which the entire phrase is in small letters. But it would be good to hear the opinions of the community. Seloloving (talk) 23:37, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

Would anyone be free to chime in on the matter? Thank you. Seloloving (talk) 23:45, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

With the implementation of lower-casing job titles in article intros, having become the norm? I reckon, lower-casing is the version to adopt for that article. For example: See Prime Minister. -- GoodDay (talk) 23:46, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

Would it be a good idea to add Leader of the Opposition to the list of examples in the page, seeing as it's a very widely used title across many countries and nearly equivalent to Prime Minister? I get that it would trigger a deluge of names to add... but it would make citing policy easier. Seloloving (talk) 23:52, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

Clarify. Add what article to what article? GoodDay (talk) 00:01, 28 July 2021 (UTC)

Just wondering if it would be a good idea to add Leader of the Opposition to the list of examples in MOS:JOBTITLES, as it is a very widely used title. Seloloving (talk) 00:03, 28 July 2021 (UTC)

You choice. GoodDay (talk) 00:05, 28 July 2021 (UTC)

"Home Secretary" vs "home secretary"

I noticed that on Home Secretary the title has been lowercased. In almost all references in the UK news, and overseas, the title is "Home Secretary" and not "home secretary". Wallnot believes that MOS says it must be in lowercase. I respect their reading of MOS:JOBTITLES, but surely in the case of the Home Secretary of the UK this is not the case? I am bringing the discussion here. - Aussie Article Writer (talk) 20:09, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

I honestly don't know what gotten into folks concerning WP:JOBTITLES, in these last few months. See above Infobox RFC. GoodDay (talk) 20:12, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

I'm not sure I understand it either. If you look at all the news reports on the Home Secretary, they capitalise the title. - Aussie Article Writer (talk) 20:18, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

Incidentally, the RFC above only deals with infoboxes, shouldn't it be expanded to deal with the lead section? - Aussie Article Writer (talk) 20:22, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

I fear the lead sections are now beyond hope. GoodDay (talk) 20:31, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

It’s not just the last few months. If you look at the history, people have been expressing unhappiness with JOBTITLES for years. Blueboar (talk) 21:09, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

This is a straightforward application of a long-standing MOS rule. There is an existing consensus, as I established on the talk page, for lowercasing the title. If you are confused regarding the source of that consensus, you can consult the archived MOS discussion, which I linked on the talk page. If you wish to establish an exception to the rule for Home Secretary, or to change the rule, it is you who must obtain consensus for doing so, not I. Additionally, I don’t see how this discussion belongs at MOS talk biography. Wallnot (talk) 20:24, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

No, not all news sources capitalize "home secretary". The Guardian, BBC, and The Independent, for example, habitually do not.[11] Virtually no academic sources capitalize job titles. Surtsicna (talk) 20:35, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

In fact, Home Secretary should be at Home secretary, or it should be "Home Secretary" everywhere. —El Millo (talk) 20:37, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

So does that mean that every article in Category:Prime ministers by country is wrongly titled? - Aussie Article Writer (talk) 20:48, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

TBH gentlemen, WP:JOBTITLES is a mess & likely needs an overhaul. GoodDay (talk) 20:50, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

This isn't about WP:JOBTITLES, it's about consistency between title and prose. Perhaps JOBTITLES is wrong, but if it's right it definitely shouldn't just apply to prose, it should apply to prose and titles. If it's wrong, then it shouldn't apply anywhere. —El Millo (talk) 21:01, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

At this point, I'm going to bow out. It does appear there is inconsistency, but I feel I am causing more heat than light in the discussion, despite my good intentions. I certainly don't want to make a difficult situation worse! - Aussie Article Writer (talk) 21:25, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

The time is coming when attempts will be made to move articles titles to full lower case. Articles like Governor-General of Australia, for example. GoodDay (talk) 21:32, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

GoodDay, actually, MOS:JOBTITLES would be against such a move. ― Tartan357 ^Talk 21:39, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

For now. GoodDay (talk) 21:40, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

Nobody lowercasing anything has gone beyond what JOBTITLES allows. Please stop with the straw man scaremongering. ― Tartan357 ^Talk 21:41, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

Actually, I am now on the verge of suggesting that MOS:JOBTITLES be made more in line with other English language style guides by giving far less leeway for capitalization. MOS:JOBTITLES is already a compromise between established academic practice and an upper case fixation, and that compromise is very lenient towards the latter. If that boat is going to be rocked all the time by those to whom such generous concessions were made, we may as well sink it. Any new version of MOS:JOBTITLES can only be more in line with academic and journalistic style guides. Surtsicna (talk) 22:24, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

It should certainly be "Home Secretary"! Johnbod (talk) 21:35, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

Oxford and Chicago, among others, are convincing me otherwise. Surtsicna (talk) 22:24, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

Yes, it should. Unique title held by only one person at a time. -- Necrothesp (talk) 10:27, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

According to whom? Which style guide are you citing? Surtsicna (talk) 21:41, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

New examples of capitalisation for 'Positions, offices, and occupational titles'

In the table of examples at 'Positions, offices, and occupational titles', there are examples of

• a title modified by a definite article (the)
• a title modified by an indefinite article (a)
• a title modified by a definite article and an ordinal

There is no example of a title modified by an ordinal alone.

I propose adding two new examples. If either of these examples do not accurately reflect the guideline, then please say so.

To the left column headed "Unmodified, denoting a title", add:

Richard Nixon, President of the United States, resigned in 1974.

In the right column headed "Modified or reworded, denoting an office", replace "Nixon was the 37th president of the United States." with:

Richard Nixon, 37th president of the United States, resigned in 1974.

Nurg (talk) 04:10, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

I have had second thoughts about this. I am withdrawing the proposal. Nurg (talk) 21:32, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

I would go with: “richard nixon, 37th PRESIDENT of the united states “… just to be ornery. Blueboar (talk) 01:05, 28 July 2021 (UTC)

Don't be a DICK. — JohnFromPinckney (talk / edits) 01:37, 28 July 2021 (UTC)

~~RicHarD nIxOn~~ 37th PRESIDENT uwu (😂) -sche (talk) 04:54, 28 July 2021 (UTC)

Never mind breaches of style guides, those are capital crimes. Nurg (talk) 05:13, 28 July 2021 (UTC)