Wikipedia talk:Notability (people)

"WT:BIO" redirects here. For WikiProject Biography, see WT:WPBIO. For WikiProject Biology, see WT:BIOLOGY.

Local sources, again

This comes back every few years, but to summarize, Wikipedia:Notability_(organizations_and_companies) has a short and useful section WP:AUD. How about we move it here? While there is no consensus to apply this to GNG in general, I think that discussion does show more consensus for using this with biographies, particularly of modern individuals. With the caveat that this may could be limited to individuals primarily active from 2nd half of the 20th century onward, I think this would be a good rule to deal with some spam (i.e. people who receive in-depth write ups in very obscure sources, like city-wide or parish-wide magazines). To be clear: if one makes it to Foo Town Encyclopedia, that's ok. But if you get covered by Foo Town Newspaper that is not circulated outside Foo Town, I don't think that's a good source. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 07:32, 17 September 2018 (UTC)

• I would strongly oppose this - precisely because "local" is so hard to define. I've seen serious Wikipedia editors argue that every single major newspaper in Australia bar one is a "local" newspaper. It gives no guidance to users and ensures ugly and pointless deletion discussions. The attempt to actually define "local" in the context of the companies rewrite a few months ago was a mess that wound up with no useful consensus on what that was, and the interpretation mess at AfD that followed in relation to other vague language in that rewrite (because I and others hoped it would generally be interpreted sensibly, and wasn't) tells me that redoing it in relation to biographies would be a very bad idea. The Drover's Wife (talk) 07:47, 17 September 2018 (UTC)
• Support, conditionally upon it always being very clear that it only applies to recent cases. It should probably apply to all BLPs. It should not apply to anyone who died more than 60-70 years ago. The wish to add the clause here I think is motivated by biographies with associated promotion, and I think that should probably be mentioned, I think company founders and CEOs should be treated as stringently as their companies. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 07:52, 17 September 2018 (UTC)
  • But we know that it would be used to try and delete many, many biographies that are not promotion, wasting editorial time and ensuring that more notable subjects of BLPs (and those who know them) get to see charming comments made about their notability - on subjects that have absolutely nothing to do with companies. Spam-hunters who've decided that it's easier to just kill everything in sight are becoming almost as much of a problem as spammers in my book. The Drover's Wife (talk) 07:57, 17 September 2018 (UTC)
    • Do we know? I am open to be persuaded. Can you give some examples? "Local" need not be hard to define, for this purpose. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 08:12, 17 September 2018 (UTC)
      • Well, the last time the discussion was had, it was long, fruitless, and involved people seriously trying to invalidate every newspaper in the country bar one, and experience at AfD has shown deletionists frequently applying absurdly wide readings of any vague language that was inserted in that rewrite more broadly. This does not make one want to repeat the process. The Drover's Wife (talk) 08:30, 17 September 2018 (UTC)
        • I can't speak for what some other people argued (and from what you say it doesn't seem like they made a particularly good argument). But I agree with Joe this shouldn't be to hard. A source that we should treat carefully, i.e. local, can be defined as having circulation no greater than one city or metropolitan area, or equivalent unit of administration (county, etc.). Provincial/state publications, i.e. regional, would be fine. And as noted before, limiting this to let's say 21st century sources or such would be ok too. The goal is to eliminate vanity spam, when someone gets an in-depth piece in their local city or parish or such newspaper, 'local boy/girl gets a career in the big city! look at that, folks!'. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 09:20, 18 September 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose. GNG works fine as is. WP:AUD was adopted as a narrow exception to address unique promotional concerns with companies and should not be extended to biographies. Moreover, the proposed change is grossly overbroad. While it may be appropriate to give discounted weight to small town newspapers, significant coverage in major metropolitan newspapers is entirely valid. Cbl62 (talk) 09:08, 17 September 2018 (UTC)
• Support. I think this is actually fine. I was a bit hesitant about the potential for overreach but I think the proposed text is pretty careful to exclude anything that could not be considered a small-town paper (i.e. it specifically mentions regional and statewide media which eliminates several of the concerns discussed above). It is definitely a problem that needs solving, because with regards to WP:POLITICIAN for example, there is nothing in the guideline that says local sources aren't fine, which would mean that every single local mayor or councillor could be (and has been) argued as notable under current guidelines, and the only counter-argument at the moment is "oh, no, we don't read it that way", which is a hell of a way to introduce newbies with an interest in local politics to Wikipedia. Frickeg (talk) 09:17, 17 September 2018 (UTC)
• GNG and multiple sources I generally find that WP:GNG stating that "multiple sources are generally expected" is sufficient. This rules out the subject that gets coverage in only one or two "local" sources. Note that muliple articles from the same publisher still counts as one source.—Bagumba (talk) 10:34, 17 September 2018 (UTC)
  • "muliple articles from the same publisher still counts as one source". I like that a lot, but where is it written down? I echo Frickeg as I am pretty sure there are bios of local politicians which are argued notable because the subject has received several articles in the local town gazette (or website). --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 09:23, 18 September 2018 (UTC)
    • @Piotrus: It's in WP:GNG at "Sources": "Multiple publications from the same author or organization are usually regarded as a single source for the purposes of establishing notability."—Bagumba (talk) 06:50, 19 September 2018 (UTC)
      • Who put the "usually" in? For the purpose of demonstrating notability, the independent sources have to be independent from the subject as well as from each other. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 07:49, 19 September 2018 (UTC)
        • @SmokeyJoe: The quote was regarding the number of sources (e.g. same newspaper with 10 different articles on the subject still counts as one "source" for notability purposes). It was not referring to "same author or organization" being the same as subject of the page.—Bagumba (talk) 08:42, 19 September 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose To me, the reason that local (however it might be defined) sources are suspect is that they may not be reliable or independent of the subject. Saying all local sources should be discounted is an easy out, but not a good one. Many local sources are of acceptable quality, I don't see how being local equates to being dubious. If a source is of dubious quality or is too closely related to an article's subject it probably should be improved upon. If an article is at AfD due to poor sourcing or if a fact in an article is in dispute, the source should be analyzed on its own merits, regardless of whether or not it is local. Smmurphy^(Talk) 15:02, 18 September 2018 (UTC)

I agree the quality of the source matters the most, but I know of many local papers (or online newspapers), which are just a repository of press releases (which may or may not be easy to spot). --Enos733 (talk) 17:20, 18 September 2018 (UTC)

Local sources are fine to support a topic once shown notable, the issue is that topics that only have local sourcing may likely not be notable for our purposes. We're likely to be able to document the history of a multi-generation family-owned small town restauarant via local sources over time, but that doesn't make the restaurant notable for a global work. --Masem (t) 17:42, 18 September 2018 (UTC)

• Oppose per WP:CREEP. Notability is a guideline, not policy, which means that it is quite imprecise and fuzzy. Adding more vague concepts like "local" would make matters worse, generating vexatious and opionated arguments which would essentially boil down to WP:IDONTLIKEIT. Andrew D. (talk) 09:14, 19 September 2018 (UTC)

• Support for BLPs: this would be a good addition, for two reasons. First, many SNGs already do a good job at indicating significant (i.e. WP:NPOL, WP:CREATIVE, WP:PROF), but in the areas without SNGs, it's more difficult to arrive at a consensus. This would apply to businesspeople, beauty pageant winners, motivational speakers, YouTube personalities, etc, which are prone to promotionalism and fancruft -- the second reason to tighten the requirements. --K.e.coffman (talk) 03:51, 20 September 2018 (UTC)

Changed to general "support". K.e.coffman (talk) 00:25, 23 September 2018 (UTC)

• Oppose per The Drover's Wife. We have no agreed upon metric to differentiate between a "local" newspaper or a "regional" newspaper or a "major metropolitan" newspaper or a "national" newspaper. For example, I have heard editors argue that the San Francisco Chronicle is a local paper despite the fact that has been circulated widely throughout Northern California since at least 1880 and has won many Pulitzer Prizes going back at least to 1941. Although I recognize the inherent issues of promotionalism regarding BLPs, especially of younger people in the early stages of their career, I think that it is a mistake to accept certain sources for establishing the notability of a person who is dead, but reject equivalent sources from the same publications for a person who is alive. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 23:00, 21 September 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose largely per TDW. The main issue for me is determining what constitutes a "local" source, and the significant likelihood that deletionists will try to expand the definition of it. I also don't think we should be going down that path where we have one rule for dead people and another for BLPs regarding whether undefined "local" sources are useable to determine notability. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 02:40, 22 September 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose – This would set a poor precedent, particularly regarding people based in or from third-world, less developed and rural areas of the world, where a lesser degree of new coverage and a lesser amount of news agencies and publishers exist. Seems that this could also lead to a greater degree of WP:SYSTEMIC bias on Wikipedia as well, whereby people covered in first world countries would receive favoritism for inclusion in the encyclopedia per a greater amount of overall said coverage, news agencies and publishers in first world countries. North America¹⁰⁰⁰ 04:16, 22 September 2018 (UTC)
• Massive oppose. AUD is bizarre nonsense that has nothing whatsoever to do with real scholarship. The very idea is simply wrong in principle per se. Circulation is simply not relevant. If the sources are reliable and independent, or the topic is objectively important and reliably sourced, there is nothing to discuss. Real historians use local newspapers: I really should not have to say anything else. ORG as a whole contains so much nonsense now that it is probably broken beyond repair and should probably be demoted to an essay. James500 (talk) 01:30, 25 September 2018 (UTC)

Agree that Org needs a lot of tidying and re-thinking. I rarely find it useful in AfD. FOARP (talk) 19:37, 17 December 2018 (UTC)

• Oppose Do we have to have multiple local sources or will "the paper my old employer owns" just do? Does it have to be for multiple events or just "that fun run I did dressed as biffo the bear". I can see this just cluttering up the project with one event non celebrities who got an award for using the same broom for 15 years. Also how local do we make it, county, city, village, that working as a chicken soup machine repair man ward is notable why should we. We can use non English language sources, so there shuold (if someone is genuinely notable) be no trouble finding non English sources that meet our existing RS criteria.Slatersteven (talk) 10:28, 25 September 2018 (UTC)
• Support Per K.E.Coffman and Masem - it's not that the sourcing is "local," it's that if a WP:BLP is only sourced to a local area, we should look twice at their notability. This would include someone from New York who gets written up in the NYT. SportingFlyer talk 07:48, 26 September 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose - We are here to write reliable biographies about individuals covered in multiple published sources, not to endlessly debate whether the sources that comprise the information blocks for building the biographies are "important enough." GNG is all about avoiding the trap of such normative, time-sucking, fruitless, bad-feeling-generating arguments. There is no way to define "local" versus "regional." This just dumps mud on top of a reliable, useful, and thoroughly established GNG. Carrite (talk) 14:58, 8 October 2018 (UTC)
• Support - while I agree that "real historians" use local papers and that they are absolutely a reliable source, not all reliable sources are created equal when it comes to establishing notability for a worldwide encyclopedia. It's my opinion that there has to be at least a modicum of "non-local" interest in a particular topic for it to be notable enough to be included. I grew up in a small town of about 25,000, and I wouldn't be able to count the number of "local kid makes good" stories in our paper; one in particular that comes to mind was the half-page feature, with multiple color photos, of our high school baseball catcher and his counterpart on the rival high school baseball team, both of whom happened to be some of the better high school baseball players in the state. Unfortunately neither of them went on to play even major college ball, let alone any level of professional ball, but they both got that big feature article plus at least one other that I remember. I don't think anyone in their right mind would call either of these two kids notable in the Wikipedia sense, but if someone were to find those two articles, they would at least be on their way to meeting GNG as currently written. And the same would almost assuredly be true of a lot of otherwise non-notable college athlete, especially those from smaller towns where going on to play college athletics is less common. I guess where I am going is the fact that historians (and Wikipedians) should definitely use local papers, but historians don't have to screen topics the way we do; they get to research whatever the heck interests them. We need some kind of objective criteria to avoid writing (and keeping) articles that simply aren't of sufficient interest. CThomas³ (talk) 00:37, 16 October 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose per above. It's impossible to clearly identify "local" sources; more importantly, for the sake of neutrality and not wasting time, notability should not be any kind of value judgement on how subjectively important or encyclopedically deserving a subject is, but a simple assessment of whether it's possible to have an article on some subject that meets the essential content policies (WP:V,WP:NPOV,WP:NOR, and WP:BLP). Wikipedia is not paper; if a reader doesn't want to learn about some locally renowned and reliably-covered individual, they're welcome to not search for them. That said, AfD participants should be vigilant about covert advertising, as they generally already are. FourViolas (talk) 03:19, 16 October 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose A) Local is poorly defined B) it's a bad idea. We don't need to keep trying to narrow our scope. If we can write a good article, we should ideally have a good article. That requires independent reliable sources, nothing more. Hobit (talk) 21:19, 29 October 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose'. This implies a level of reliability that is, in practice, likely to be highly contingent on the precise interpretation of local and the exact publication involved. Guy (Help!) 18:25, 30 October 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose Some countries have very decentralised media (e.g., Germany) and most/all of their big-name media are at some level regional/local. The idea that you can simply say "national coverage is required" in terms of establishing notability for anything in those countries simply won't work. Moreover this is simply creating an artificial standard for notability based on national/regional borders - there is no reason why the Irish Times (a national paper in the Republic of Ireland, population 4.8 million) should be sufficient to establish notability, but coverage in the Evening Standard (a city paper for London, urban population 9.8 million) should be insufficient. Regional, even small-town media is still a WP:NEWSORG and should still get the presumption that if they have a professional staff, editors and so-forth, then they should be a reliable source unless there is evidence to the contrary. Concerns about small-town papers bigging up some local citizen are misplaced - there is still a requirement for more than a fluff-piece or interview before you can get to notability. FOARP (talk) 19:33, 17 December 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose it should be the reliability of the source that counts rather than the locality in relation to the locality of the subject, local sources can be more reliable than national sources in my view Atlantic306 (talk) 19:58, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
• Comment - an RFC on removing WP:AUD altogether has been started here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Notability_(organizations_and_companies)#RFC:_Should_local_coverage_in_reliable_sources_be_sufficient_to_establish_notability?

Notability of business people in Uwajimaya

Need your thoughts on a number of drafts over at Talk:Uwajimaya#Notability_of_business_people_in_Uwajimaya. Editor has drafted biographies of family members in the business which is a local supermarket chain in Seattle. It's not Walton family AngusWOOF (bark • sniff) 17:08, 28 January 2019 (UTC)

Norman Goodman

This article came to my attention via a link in the recent deaths page. I see that it has existed since 2009. However, I found nothing, either in terms of its prose or its wikilinks, which told me a thing about the position Goodman held or why it would be considered a notable position. Near as I could tell, he was a court clerk, which I don't believe is typially considered a notable position. The impression I'm getting here is the same as with so many other pieces of minutiae on the encyclopedia, that we're giving this a pass because it has something to do with a big city. RadioKAOS / Talk to me, Billy / Transmissions 03:33, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

A county clerk is not inherently notable, however it seems Goodman has garnered coverage (being responsible for many years for calling people to jury details) by the NYT - 2019, 2014 - as well as several other outlets - so there is a case to be make for WP:GNG. Icewhiz (talk) 08:20, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

PORNBIO

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

This is still a recipe for conflict. Someone can meet all the criteria in this list without there being a single reliable independent secondary source about them. All subject-specific guidelines are merely indicia of the kind of person likely to meet WP:GNG, but n this case the tests are completely unconnected from any kind of reality-based sources. Guy (Help!) 00:20, 13 February 2019 (UTC)

Follow up question: why do we have an SNG for pornography at all? GMG^talk 00:21, 13 February 2019 (UTC)

To create yet another walled garden within the encyclopedia, that's why. Most of the content falling under this amounts to nothing more than a directory of individuals who have won awards that 95 percent of the general public have never heard of. RadioKAOS / Talk to me, Billy / Transmissions 00:31, 13 February 2019 (UTC)

Applies to most SNGs, but especially this one. Guy (Help!) 00:35, 13 February 2019 (UTC)

!Support MfD. Leviv ich 00:37, 13 February 2019 (UTC)

I mean, we don't really need MfD, since we're not really deleting anything. We could just remove it as obviously useless and see who exactly wants to make it their line in the sand to defend pornography as somehow special...other than the fact that Wikipedia is on the internet, which is 72% porn and 36% cat pictures. Then again, we don't have an SNG for cats either as far as I'm aware. GMG^talk 01:04, 13 February 2019 (UTC)

Oh yeah. !Support mf'ing deletion, then. Leviv ich 01:17, 13 February 2019 (UTC)

It's not "obviously useless," it's just a SNG that may be a bit too overbroad. I'm not sure I've ever edited a topic on the subject, but I'm glad there's an SNG there to help me if something were to come up at AfD. SportingFlyer T·C 01:34, 13 February 2019 (UTC)

...Just because an SNG for albino acupuncturists can help us simplify AfD by applying arbitrary rules without any critical analysis doesn't actually mean that we need an SNG on albino acupuncturists. They key there is that if you're applying any standard at AfD other than whether a well-sourced neutral encyclopedia article can be written based on the available sources, then you're applying the wrong standard. GMG^talk 01:59, 13 February 2019 (UTC)

It's disingenuous to compare this to albino acupuncturists, though. I think I've only looked into one article which the SNG would be relevant for, but the elements here are different than WP:NACTOR, and WP:GNG has to be met anyways. I'd like to see an example the SNG completely diverges from WP:GNG before jumping to any broad conclusion. SportingFlyer T·C 09:41, 13 February 2019 (UTC)

I'd rather think of it as illustrative analytical alliteration rather than disingenuousness. The problem with "WP:GNG has to be met anyways" is that people fundamentally don't act that way in deletion debates, and you wind up in quasi-legal arguments such as the comment below by User:Hydronium Hydroxide about how sub-paragraph C(4) of SNG#1 modifies section 8 paragraph H of SNG#2. I'm sorry, but that winds up looking like an argument between people who have associates degrees in Wikipedia jargon, and is much more concerned about the interpretation of complex sets of rules for their own sake, and comparatively little substantive argument about whether a well-sourced neutral article can be written. Whether a well sourced neutral encyclopedia article can be written is WP:5P1, and if it fails that, then it don't belong here.

If we give any credence to complex sets of rules for their own sake, then the only thing NPORN actually does is restate ANYBIO and GNG for pornography without adding any additional substance:

1. The person has received a well-known and significant award or honor for pornography
2. The person has made a widely recognized contribution for pornography
3. The person has received significant coverage in reliable sources for pornography

So then what is the point of having it when all is does is duplicate nearly word for word guidance already given elsewhere? GMG^talk 11:53, 13 February 2019 (UTC)

• PORNBIO expressly removed the "or has been nominated for such an award several times" part included in ANYBIO and PORNBIO restricts the awards to "well-known and significant industry award." Porn award ceremonies are abundant and nominations are given out prolifically. The ongoing dispute is which awards types confer notability. Applying ANYBIO without restrictions would be even more permissive than PORNBIO. • Gene93k (talk) 19:47, 13 February 2019 (UTC)

• Except that ANYBIO applies to any bio. GMG^talk 19:50, 13 February 2019 (UTC)

• Because the SNG limits what a "well-known and significant award or honor" or "widely recognised contribution" actually means for these types of biographies. Otherwise, Gene93k is right - you'd be more permissive, and notability analysis becomes even squishier. SportingFlyer T·C 20:05, 13 February 2019 (UTC)

Given the subject under discussion, I suggest we steer clear of imagery along the lines of squishier. EEng 21:37, 13 February 2019 (UTC)

Considering your propensity to add images to threads, I'm just going to assume you couldn't find a good clean squishy image quickly. SportingFlyer T·C 08:04, 14 February 2019 (UTC)

Uh oh, that sounds like a challenge. Lots of pornography at the Commons to choose from. Leviv ich 08:09, 14 February 2019 (UTC)

• Except that ANYBIO applies to any bio. GMG^talk 20:15, 13 February 2019 (UTC)

• So you're saying that PORNBIO should defer to a more general statement? Are you arguing an actor who won multiple ensemble awards should qualify for an article under ANYBIO? SportingFlyer T·C 08:04, 14 February 2019 (UTC)

• If a person winning multiple ensemble awards received sustained in-depth coverage in reliable sources for doing so, then yes, they should have an article. If not, then they can't have an article because there's nothing to write one with. That's what determines whether an award is important for our purposes, not whether an it is mentioned in one of our special rules. I wouldn't personally argue to keep an article based on either NPORN or ANYBIO. I would argue based on the sources, and if I can't argue based on the sources, then I don't argue at all, and I go write an article that does have sources instead. But if we're going to have special rules because people who are engrossed in the organizational culture have an affinity for special rules, then we should at least get rid of the ones that don't actually add anything over our other special rules, and this one doesn't, because ANYBIO is both broader in scope and more inclusive in criteria. GMG^talk 11:21, 14 February 2019 (UTC)

• I think we should form a committee to do a comprehensive review of all available sources on each porn performer. EEng 02:47, 13 February 2019 (UTC)
• Remove this section. I do not think any special criteria are needed. My very best wishes (talk) 03:11, 13 February 2019 (UTC)

It includes 3 points:

1. That does not help. Who knows what is a well-known and significant industry award? Why awards by that industry are a sign of notability? See next point.
2. I think this can not be used as a criterion. Someone in these lists is actually an advertisement by this "industry", not a sign of notability.
3. Yes, sure, but this is a general GNG criterion for any person. No need in anything special for pornography. My very best wishes (talk) 04:38, 14 February 2019 (UTC)

• I believe that removing NPORN wholesale would make AFDs more onerous. NPORN has five components:

• The common Additional Criteria preamble indicates that the NPORN criteria are neither necessary nor sufficient, in other words meeting one or more provides no presumed notability.
• The NPORN preamble limits scope. It means that one can reasonably argue that for items it covers that this is how the generic GNG / ANYBIO criteria should be interpreted.
• NPORN#1 interprets/limits ANYBIO#1 and ENT#2
• NPORN#2 interprets/limits ANYBIO#2 and ENT#3
• NPORN#3 interprets/limits BASIC.

Non-presumptive SNGs are a Good Thing. Sure we could go from first principles every AFD, but SNGs and similar guides allow us to more easily skip the same debates. SNGs can also help with PRODs. Remove NPORN, and you're left with the less-defined set of criteria at ENT, ANYBIO, and BASIC. If an SNG's criteria need tweaking or certain awards need to be explicitly categorised as notable, noteworthy, or non-notable (yes please -- across all fields) then that should be done. Why don't we need an SNG on acupuncturists, albino or otherwise? Because we haven't had hundreds if not thousands of such bios that are candidates for deletion, and relatively few alternative medicine practitioners have a public profile (but if there were to be a medical practitioner (sub-)SNG that might not be a bad thing). ^~Hydronium^~Hydroxide^~(Talk)~ 04:36, 13 February 2019 (UTC)

• A big problem with porn in Wikipedia is that reputable media tends to shun pornography while some consider it of general encyclopedic interest. The rationale behind PORNBIO was that credible recognition by peers or established critics might indicate notability. Unfortunately, without mainstream media or academic attention, too much of the remaining sources exist to promote the industry. There is no easy fix, but having PORNBIO notability claims insist on support from credible sources would be a good start. • Gene93k (talk) 11:51, 13 February 2019 (UTC)
• I'd support getting rid of it. PORNBIO creates the presumption that someone who has won some types of industry awards is notable. In practice it doesn't work like that and even winning some of the most high profile porn industry awards isn't usually enough to save a biography from deletion, unless there is evidence that the GNG is met as well. Given that the guideline should be changed. Porn doesn't get much in the way of mainstream press attention so winning porn awards is not likely to lead to suitable sources being available in itself. ANYBIO would still apply but it would require someone to show that a porn industry award is "well-known and significant" generally, not just within the porn industry. That's a higher standard to meet. Hut 8.5 21:10, 14 February 2019 (UTC)
• The first time I agree with user:Gene93k - "A big problem with porn in Wikipedia is that reputable media tends to shun pornography" - so, there will always be problems for erotic/porn articles to meets of WP:GNG. The problem does not concern only one group of people. For example - 99% of sportmens are known only locally, ~90% of sportmens do not meets of the WP:GNG because they are described only in the sports press. So, we can delete 90% of articles of sportmans? Nonsense. Please - some more rationality. I think, to avoid constantly arising conflicts about PORNBIO and AfDs, we need to specify which are "well-known and significant industry award". I also suggest that to modify the previous version of PORNBIO - restore nominations. It is often the case that there is a well known porn star with many years of experience, many (hundreds) movies, many (>10) nominations of awards and article has been deleted because must to be at least 1 really awards. This is absurd. I would also like to inform you that en.Wikipedia has the most irrational requirements for pornstars, the vast majority of deleted articles of pornstars in AfD, has many interwiki, so - these articles existed on many Wikipedias. Subtropical-man (✉ | en-2) 00:20, 15 February 2019 (UTC)

• One can not compare the achievements in sports which are more or less objective (e.g. running N meters faster than for M seconds) with "achievements" in pornography. Yes, one can say that pornography is a variety of entertainment. This is fine. We do have a section about entertainers in the policy. But we do not need a separate subsection about pornography in the section about entertainers. My very best wishes (talk) 16:12, 15 February 2019 (UTC)

The only porn stars I can name are Stormy Daniels/Stephanie Clifford, Karen McDougal and Ron Jeremy. Can we craft a guideline around what they share in common? Legacypac (talk) 18:04, 15 February 2019 (UTC)

All four have soft, voluptuous figures and big tits? EEng 21:00, 15 February 2019 (UTC)

Does the thing they share in common happen to be sustained in-depth coverage in reliable independent sources? GMG^talk 18:07, 15 February 2019 (UTC)

They all do stuff Melania won't? Legacypac (talk) 23:59, 15 February 2019 (UTC)

A perfect example of nonsense of current version of PORNBIO is Johnny Sins. In first AfD (2016) - the result was delete, in second AfD (2018) - the result was not keep, just "no consensus" for delete. He is almost cult in pornography industry, also well known as "bald" from Brazzers, popular even in memes outside the pornographic industry [1] and "he is consistently among the most popular porn searches[9][10][11]" He has 4 awards, incuding AVN Award (porn-oscars) - Favorite Male Porn Star (two times) and 33 nominations!!!!!!! Subscribers on new channel of YouTube (from 2017) is million, total views - 44 million, not counting the erotic movies by other productions, for example Brazzers. Several dozen million people know him by sight but due no clarification #1 of PORNBIO and because of that "reputable media tends to shun pornography" (= problem with GNG), the article is still threatened by absurdity of en.Wikipedia. Subtropical-man (✉ | en-2) 20:53, 15 February 2019 (UTC)

It's not our job to fix problems with reputable media and it's certainly not our job to write articles on subject without reputable coverage, and certainly not or living persons. It doesn't matter even a little bit whether he has a cult following, how many people like his tweets, or how many memes he's in, because none of those things help us to write an encyclopedia article. The thing that allows us to write an article is in-depth coverage in reliable sources. That's not a problem; it's a feature. If people want to read about cult subjects that have not received mainstream coverage, then I'm sure there's a wikia for that, just like there is for everything else. GMG^talk 21:11, 15 February 2019 (UTC)

Agreed. One of the first things I learned when I started on Wikipedia was that notability != fame. A WP:GNG-notable person needn't be famous, and famous person isn't necessarily notable. Too many people confuse those two things (witness the comments we get about YouTube views, Twitter followers, iTunes downloads, and similar dreck). If it were up to me, I'd raise the bar for inclusion of articles about biographies and bands way higher than it is now. That would eliminate a lot of this pop-culture cruft Wikipedia has now. But I know that's an unrealistic expectation. ~Anachronist (talk) 21:30, 15 February 2019 (UTC)

• Johnny Sins meets the requirements of the PORNBIO (two notable awards) and even GNG (few sources outside the pornographic industry). The problem is that group of few (still the same) users pushing version that "Favorite Male Porn Star" (and each other award) of AVN Award (porn-oscars) not meets of #1 (well-known and significant industry award). This is absurd and patology. Using the method of Wikipedia:Meatpuppetry, this group of few (still the same) users win in each AfD about pornstar, almost always article is deleted. We have to end these manipulations and finish creating own standards. Therefore, corrections in PORNBIO are necessary. There must be clear criteria for pornstars. Subtropical-man (✉ | en-2) 21:32, 15 February 2019 (UTC)

• I do believe a correction is necessary, and that's to remove the thing entirely as utterly useless. An award doesn't mean you've received independent reliable coverage, and if it does, then you don't need to argue based on the award, because you can argue based on the independent reliable coverage. If you want to fix the fact that reliable sources don't cover the porn industry, then go start a media company and write about the porn industry in a way that has reliable journalistic integrity and systematic editorial oversight. We don't need to fix Wikipedia so that we can write poorly referenced articles on porn, because the purpose of Wikipedia is not to write about porn. The purpose of Wikipedia is to write about subjects that have received sustained in-depth coverage in reliable sources. If a subject hasn't received that coverage, then they can take their twitter followers and their memes and go elsewhere. The fact that there is a small dedicated fan base that wants to write about every trivial detail of a niche subject does not constitute a crisis on our part. See also every Wikia ever created that lists every trivial unsourced minutiae on everything that's ever been within half a mile of a popular video game. GMG^talk 23:44, 15 February 2019 (UTC)

• GreenMeansGo (GMG), sorry but the problem is the reliability of the occupational analyzes. At one time, encyclopedias had a small number of biographies, encyclopedia had articles about significant people in the world like Mikołaj Kopernik or Picasso. Now, Wikipedia describes local politicians, local sportmens, local military personnel with no contribution to history or local poets with 2 books. What is it supposed to be? These people only do their job, some people to race, others write poems, others play in porn movies. They have notoriety but none of them no matters to the world. Fame is not a synonym for the word of "notability". De facto, on Wikipedia ~99% of biographies should be removed, being famous and listed in the press should not be enough, these people have no significant contribution to humanity / world. For now, there are no changes for resolve the problem. Subtropical-man (✉ | en-2) 02:02, 16 February 2019 (UTC)

• Notability is not a measure of whether an article should be written. Notability is a measure of whether an article can be written. The presumption is that every neutral well sourced article that can be written should be written. It is not a measure of importance, or fame, or contribution to humanity or history; it is a measure of whether we can write an article based on coverage in reliable sources. We have articles on people who are probably objectively terrible people and contribute nothing to anything, but we have them because there are reliable sources available sufficient to write an article with. We lack articles on people, especially in antiquity, who may have made lasting impactful contributions to humanity, because we have no reliable sources with which to write an article. Our job is not to fix that; our job is only to record it. GMG^talk 02:21, 16 February 2019 (UTC)

• You just showed the moral, proving that current standards are hopeless and need to be changed. Fame is not a synonym for the word of "notability" but also: existed any reliable sources is not a synonym for the word of "notability". Your opinion is based on one wrong theory: existed reliable sources = article can be written and your next text of "It is not a measure of importance, or fame, or contribution to humanity or history" - sorry, Wikipedia is encyclopedia, not garbage or newspapers looking for publicity. Subtropical-man (✉ | en-2) 13:01, 16 February 2019 (UTC)

• How many pornstars are in Encyclopædia Britannica? Legacypac (talk) 23:59, 15 February 2019 (UTC)

• How many articles are in Encyclopædia Britannica? 32,640 pages!, en.Wikipedia has 5,808,409 articles, so - Encyclopædia Britannica is just 0,56% of en.Wikipedia. How many sportmens are in Encyclopædia Britannica? How many politics are in Encyclopædia Britannica? Sorry, but biographies is marginal part of the Encyclopædia Britannica. Subtropical-man (✉ | en-2) 01:29, 16 February 2019 (UTC)

Seems like a good RfC idea, perhaps for WP:VPPOL, to avoid attracting mostly a bloc vote. I agree that the SNGs should not be making up fake "anti-GNG" criteria. Their purpose is helping editors decided whether the topic they want to write about is likely to pass GNG and why (or, what kinds of sourcing to find and facts to source to keep an article that already exists but is attracting claims of not being notable enough to keep). I also tend to think we do not need a page like this specifically for porn stars, but we don't MfD guidelines (see WP:P&G, which specifically says so). Rather, the community may decide to mark them {{Historical}} or {{Rejected}}. In this case, it might be kept but made to stop contradicting the site-wide main notability guideline (which isn't okay, per WP:CONLEVEL policy – something definitely has to change about this).  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  04:01, 22 February 2019 (UTC)

• Have never voted to keep a porn article but I dont see the need to dump the sng as it is normally considered subservient to GNG at AFD in practice, and is at least a benchmark to advise editors against creating the most unnotable of porn bio articles, im my view Atlantic306 (talk) 20:06, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
• Having run a couple of weeks and attracted a fair bit of discussion, and seemingly overall support, reckon it's time to flip this into a bona fide RfC? Or to those here feel there is sufficient consensus in the threaded discussion to remove the text without the formality? GMG^talk 20:14, 22 February 2019 (UTC)

Needs an RFC, there is opposition Atlantic306 (talk) 20:48, 22 February 2019 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Request for comment regarding PORNBIO

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

• Should we deprecate WP:PORNBIO as an SNG? GMG^talk 22:05, 22 February 2019 (UTC)

Survey regarding PORNBIO

• Support removal we have WP:ENT we don't have seperate guidelines on stage actors, voice actors, soap actors etc. Legacypac (talk) 20:32, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
• Support removal (I've not commented in this discussion yet). Past AfD discussions on adult actors have generally shown that even "significant awards" do not correlate to the subjects meeting WP:BASIC, to which PORNBIO is a supplement. We have WP:ENT and this is sufficient. --K.e.coffman (talk) 21:54, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
• Support as proposer. PORNBIO is mostly redundant to ANYBIO and GNG as I indicated in the threaded discussion above. There is no obvious reason that I see to treat pornographic biographies especially different than others, or at least not any different than other biographies of entertainers. There is no indication that I see, and no real argument above that the criteria is likely to correspond to coverage in reliable sources, but instead seems fairly arbitrarily chosen for a niche subject for no apparent reason in particular, for either standards or scope. Beyond that, we should be mindful to push back against CREEP by actively removing unhelpful guidance, since an abundance of such guidance only helps to complicate discussion, and deter new editors with unnecessarily complex sets of rules and jargon. GMG^talk 22:11, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose as it at least deters new pornbios on the more unnotable subjects Atlantic306 (talk) 22:23, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
• Support – Simpler is better. The adult entertainment industry may have been ignored by reliable sources when this SNG was created in 2006, but today, there doesn't seem to be any lack of reliable sources that cover this industry. I see no real arguments in the discussion for why a separate SNG is needed, and why these articles aren't adequately addressed by GNG, ANYBIO, and ENT. Giving editors a fourth thing to consider (PORNBIO) is too complicated and apparently unnecessary; ENT is adequate as an SNG. Leviv ich 22:33, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose - "A big problem with porn in Wikipedia is that reputable media tends to shun pornography", there are several sections in Notability (people), due to this problem PORNBIO should be remain. Subtropical-man (✉ | en-2) 22:55, 22 February 2019 (UTC)

• Please don't take my statement of the problem as an endorsement of keeping PORNBIO the way it is. I'm undecided about dumping PORNBIO. That said, Wikipedia needs to be based on reliable sources, and excusing pornography from that is bad policy. • Gene93k (talk) 17:37, 24 February 2019 (UTC)

• Support removal I have always thought that this privileged porn bios as a subset of entertainers, and was a weird niche SNG. They should have to meet GNG/ENT, if they don't we shouldn't have an article on them. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 00:58, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
• Support removal. This has led to endless drama and misunderstanding, proposing that frankly terrible sources be treated as reliable because no actually reliable sources exist. Guy (Help!) 01:01, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
• Comment - I generally trust participants in a project to be more knowledgeable about which subjects falling under that project are truly notable, and which sources provide reliable information about subjects in that area. I would like to think that if the guidelines developed by such a project were problematic, then they could be fixed locally rather than being eliminated. bd2412 T 02:24, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose it requires improvement not removal, indeed I think removal would actually make things worse as awards are so prolific in the porn industry there needs to be some guide about which ones are significant and which ones aren't - something that PORNBIO is best placed to do. I know that there are plenty of people who have a problem with biographies of porn stars being in Wikipedia at all, but Wikipedia is a neutral encyclopaedia so recommendations based on personal feelings regarding the subject matter must be ignored. Thryduulf (talk) 02:30, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose removal of SNG and apply it more rigorously. Another editor has pointed out Wikipedia:WikiProject Pornography/Deletion that much progress is being made in deleting undesirable articles using the SNG, although there is more to be done. Xxanthippe (talk) 02:49, 24 February 2019 (UTC).

  Really? Because it seems much more likely to be used to argue for keeping flagrant BLP violations based on an award that no one has ever heard of or cared about other than fanboys on the internet. GMG^talk 13:06, 24 February 2019 (UTC)

It looks as if that one is heading for deletion as a result of applying the SNG strictly. Xxanthippe (talk) 03:39, 25 February 2019 (UTC).

The only ones citing this SNG are the ones !voting to keep the article. GMG^talk 22:25, 25 February 2019 (UTC)

• Support per GMG, this can be adequately covered by other guidelines. -- Tavix ^(talk) 15:47, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
• Support removal but we do need to place a grandfathering clause to cover existing articles for a period of about 2 years. The porn industry has little external, independent coverage and thus the criteria for this here are far too dependent to show that WP:V can ultimately be met. --Masem (t) 17:52, 24 February 2019 (UTC)

• What would be the point of a grandfathering clause? We have a current problem with articles that don't conform to WP:BLP, so surely any fix to this problem should be implemented immediately. Phil Bridger (talk) 18:02, 24 February 2019 (UTC)

• Any porn actor meeting one of the current PORNBIO criteria should mean there's a source - maybe not the best or an independent source - to show that criteria is met. That's not an outright failure of BLP, so there's no reason to rush to remove these articles - this also creates a fait accompli problem if someone mass noms them for deletion. If there are true BLP violation articles that can't be edited away easily, then do that. --Masem (t) 18:06, 24 February 2019 (UTC)

• You are here, as below, concentrating on the wrong aspect of the sources. If the source is non-independent then that is not necessarily a BLP failure, put if the source is unreliable, which many of those used in articles about porn actors are, that definitely does fail WP:BLP. Phil Bridger (talk) 18:21, 24 February 2019 (UTC)

• What I am saying is that if we are removing PORNBIO, then there are going to be numerous pages created/developed in good faith on the basis that PORNBIO was correct, so we should not be rushing to delete them unless they are an outright BLP violation. To me, this would fully unsourced articles. Articles with unreliable sources but against uncontestable claims are not BLP violations, and should be allowed to be kept and a year or two under grandfathering to see if they can be improved beyond the unreliable sources. If they can't be, then after this grandfathering period, they are fair game for AFD. --Masem (t) 19:58, 24 February 2019 (UTC)

• Well, then, we disagree, but Wikipedia, and the rest of the world, would be a pretty boring place if we all agreed about everything. Phil Bridger (talk) 20:02, 24 February 2019 (UTC)

• Support removal the veiled attempts at censorship in this are fly in the face of existing policy. Regular AFDs work for all other actor articles there is no reason they can't work for porn actors as well. MarnetteD|Talk 17:57, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
• a stroll through AfDs linked from Wikipedia:WikiProject Pornography/Deletion confirms for me that PORNBIO needs to go. It is being used to argue keep on pages that fail WP:ENT. Therefore it is (or is being argued to be) more permissive then our main guideline. Legacypac (talk) 17:58, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose removal per Chesterton's fence. I have commented on thousands of AfD discussions, but make a point to avoid PORNBIO ones. There is no good way to use the WP:ENT criteria to assess porn actors - determining whether actors have "significant roles" is nearly impossible at AFD, and determining if they have a "large fan base" is equally difficult. Using industry awards is a proxy for this metric that can be adjudicated with much less effort. If the PORNBIO standards often allow for articles that violate the WP:BLP policy or WP:V, they should be changed.
  Many commenters want to remove this because they feel SNGs are generally bad, or there are too many porn bios. I disagree fully. I support having more SNGs and always oppose the theory that we should have no rules but GNG to assess notability. I generally oppose deletionist arguments on policy, particularly when they are based on WP:IDONTLIKEIT. Furthermore, it's unclear whether this would decrease the number of articles; if there is enough bureaucracy at AFD, it may increase the article count through friction. power~enwiki (π, ν) 18:23, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
• Support removal. Its purpose has never been more than that of protecting a walled garden of articles on topics that fail any sane notability criteria. Many of its claims (of people being "notable" if they earned this or that type of industry award or played this or that type of role) are simply, factually untrue – let's not forget that a SNG cannot and must not arbitrarily decide what is or isn't notable, but must make testable and falsifiable generalizations about what types of topics typically fulfill our actual, general notability criteria, the ones defined in GNG. If ths SNG don't match those, then the SNG is simply invalid. We should have got rid of it long ago. Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:17, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
• Support removal. Given that the very nature of the subject poses BLP issues, sourcing must be stricter (and thus the notability bar higher) than the typical biography. Tolerating poor sourcing also invites spam, covert advertising, the misuse of Wikipedia for promotional purposes and gaming of sourcing requirements, just like we have with corporations and a subset of living people. I'm not familiar with how often porn actors/actresses are spammed, but I wouldn't be that surprised if they were. MER-C 22:00, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose removal I strongly believe this should be kept. We already delete most pornography-related articles at AfD for not passing this SNG, and a clear reading of the SNG clarifies how WP:ENT should be applied by strongly limiting the notability criteria. The industry has enough awards I could make a clear keep argument at AfD under WP:ENT for an award currently limited by WP:PORNBIO. Also, as noted above, anyone meeting WP:PORNBIO should meet the WP:GNG, and nothing has been demonstrated here showing there's a problem in that regard. SportingFlyer T·C 05:20, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose removal We have guidelines such as WP:SPORTSPERSON, WP:ARTIST and WP:CRIMINAL because "the one size fits all" WP:BASIC doesn't always work in specialised area. I don't see WP:PORNBIO as different to any of the other more specific guidelines. That said, I think it needs to be more specific than it is at present. For example "well-known and significant industry award" should be defined. --John B123 (talk) 22:12, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose. Some of these people are being watched by millions per week online, but because of what they do, the sources that would qualify as WP:RS, only cover them sporadically, and nowhere near in proportion to their inherent notability and engagement by the public. WP:PORNBIO reflects reality. This proposal is a depreciated version of reality. Britishfinance (talk) 20:47, 3 March 2019 (UTC)
• support passing PORNBIO is no longer a successful argument at afd. Therefore the sng is depreciated. These are mostly BLPs and that level of sourcing is necessary.Spartaz ^Humbug! 23:06, 7 March 2019 (UTC)

  Some administrators such as yourself have dismissed it for years, while others follow it since it is the current rules. You recently nominated various porn actor articles for deletion and Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Seymore_Butts ended with keep because of the porn subject specific guideline. So yes, it is a successful argument at AFD. Dream Focus 00:19, 8 March 2019 (UTC)

Yes PORNBIO was cited by some voters but others noted he passes WP:ANYBIO amd WP:GNG because, as I noted, Butts is one of the two most famous male porn actors out there. You can debate which votes were more important but Mr Butts does not need PORNBIO to have a page. Legacypac (talk) 01:14, 8 March 2019 (UTC)

I think Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Mia_Malkova_(3rd_nomination) is a better example of pornbio being the reason it was kept. There are some AFDS where pornbio is ignored and other times its the reason something is kept. Horrible that rules don't get enforced consistently. I'm in favor of eliminating this subject specific guideline of course, but as long as its there it should be followed. Dream Focus 15:30, 8 March 2019 (UTC)

• Support elimination of this subject specific guideline. This is an encyclopedia not a porn catalog. I believe the rules should be followed, and if you disagree with them discuss it here and change them in a proper manner. If for some reason the rule is kept, then it should be followed. Dream Focus 23:59, 7 March 2019 (UTC)
• Support. There has just been at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Casey Calvert (actress) another article about a porn actor kept on the basis of passing WP:PORNBIO (by virtue of receiving XRCO "Unsung siren awards", which pretty clearly states unnotability in its very title) that doesn't contain any reliable sources that would get it through WP:BLP. The WP:PORNBIO guideline, or any other guideline, should not be used to override fundamental policy in this way, but it is clearly happening in this case, so it would be best to get rid of the guideline. I can only surmise, by the way that WP:BLP is routinely ignored in such discussions, that porn actors are not considered to be real living people. Phil Bridger (talk) 21:48, 9 March 2019 (UTC)
• Support removal There's no reason for this to be separate from WP:NACTOR. Natureium (talk) 02:07, 11 March 2019 (UTC)
• Support removal. For the most part, SNGs are meant to clarify the GNG, but what I've seen from AfDs is that subjects that pass PORNBIO often fail NACTOR/GNG. SNG should only be allowed to supplant the GNG (e.g. WP:ACADEMIC) under the highest scrutiny. I don't want to practice knee-jerk subject discrimination here, but ultimately it makes sense if we think encyclopedic = long-term significance; we read papers from hundreds years ago, but who even remembers a porno from a decade ago? (And of course the ones that do get remembered are surely covered in reliable sources, so the GNG/NACTOR is perfectly sufficient.) -- King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 02:45, 11 March 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose removal - Such guidance is necessary to allow reasonable encyclopedic coverage of individuals whose trade is stigmatized by society (which means there is less coverage of it in traditional media and that many editors distaste of it will bleed into their opinions). WP:P*/D shows that pornography deletionism is quite healthy without eliminating a helpful guideline that saves a few borderline cases; Better to keep a few too many than to throw them all away. — Godsy ^(TALK_CONT) 03:24, 11 March 2019 (UTC)
• Support removal - With all the promotional industry awards, it is far easier for someone to become "encyclopedic" by being involved in the porn industry than by being an academic, a journalist, a CTO, a CFO... This change could be applied retroactively to profit. No need for en.wp to continue promoting the industry. SashiRolls ^{t · c} 14:30, 11 March 2019 (UTC)

  We're not here to right great wrongs. People don't get Wikipedia articles if their work is valuable, but if their work is notable. (No comment on the relative value of work done by pornographic actors vs. CTOs.) — Bilorv (he/him) _(talk) 14:18, 13 March 2019 (UTC)

I found this recent article interesting concerning WikiPorn's cultural footprint. Catalina Cruz has articles on both fr.wp & en.wp; the WMF's former CTO (Victoria Coleman) is on neither. As far as writing straight dung goes, I suppose Miller v. California did establish the obscenity test as being based on "serious literary, artistic, political, or scientific value", rather than industry-primped notability. SashiRolls ^{t · c} 20:52, 13 March 2019 (UTC)

• Support removal Perhaps we can identify what are actually the legitimate highest awards in the industry that are not merely promotional and limit consideration to that, but if there are not substantive sources about the individuals besides "X won this fancy award", i.e. the GNG, there should not be an article about them regardless. Reywas92^Talk 18:58, 11 March 2019 (UTC)
• Support removal articles about subjects which do, in theory, meet PORNBIO are frequently deleted at AfD anyway when there is no evidence of passing the GNG. The fact that meeting PORNBIO does not create a likelihood of the subject meeting the GNG means it's not an effective notability guideline. The problem is than porn doesn't get much coverage in mainstream media and industry media sources aren't sufficient. Hut 8.5 21:45, 11 March 2019 (UTC)
• Support removal per pre-RFC initial discussion statement by JzG/Guy ~ ToBeFree (talk) 13:21, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
• Support removal, WP:ENT + WP:GNG should be adequate. PORNBIO seem to be too divergent from our other bio standards to keep, mostly due to the awards issue, which seems to be intractable. Kaldari (talk) 16:24, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
• Support removal due to being too narrow (at least, in my opinion) to be a good notability guideline. There's also the plenty-mentioned "keeping articles as they pass PORNBIO but they don't pass GNG", mainly due to the awards clause in the former, which also draws my disapproval. Sure, trying to rewrite it is an option, but right now I see too many flaws for a rewrite to do much. Kirbanzo ^{(userpage - talk - contribs)} 21:44, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose removal - per power~enwiki. MrClog (talk) 23:22, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
• Support removal - per power-enwiki and GMG. Ealdgyth - Talk 14:33, 13 March 2019 (UTC)
• Support removal. PORNBIO has 3 points. Point 1 is pointless without an accompanying list of awards that are deemed (following research) significant (and leading to coverage). Point 2 (groundbreaking, iconic, unique, trend - with the exception of HoF perhaps) - is impossible to assess without evaluating sources as to whether a certain act is trendy/unique/iconic or merely a minor variation on some other prior act - it has us evaluating coverage in any event. Point 3 (" featured multiple times in notable mainstream media.) is WP:SIGCOV which doesn't need a SNG. The current SNG, therefore, is pointless as it is either undefined (significant award) or the existing SIGCOV. Icewhiz (talk) 15:22, 13 March 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose removal but word much more strongly & restrictively. I have the same goal as those wanting to remove it, but think removing this is going in the wrong direction. . The awards issue can be dealt with by a list of what counts--a short list. The GNG does not work very well in this field--it's much too permissive. DGG ( talk ) 19:38, 13 March 2019 (UTC)

  @DGG: the current SNG, as worded, does not override WP:BASIC - you would need to work that in as well, not just tighten.Icewhiz (talk) 19:44, 13 March 2019 (UTC)

  agreed. The status of this and most sngs is ambiguous. Each one should decide whch option to follow:, just a guide, giving a presumption of notability , giving a presumption of non-notability, restricting the GNG, or expanding it. The amiguity heeleads to erratic decisions at AfD. DGG ( talk ) 20:52, 13 March 2019 (UTC)

  @DGG: I'm a little confused by your !vote. An SNG by its very nature is more permissive than GNG; it allows subjects that fail GNG to be considered notable. If those subjects passed GNG, we wouldn't need the supplementary guideline. Are you proposing that we ignore GNG for pornographic actors? How else would we make an SNG more restrictive than the general guideline? Vanamonde (Talk) 06:49, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

Not so. We can define a SNG however we choose: as an alternative, as a replacement, as a restriction, as a liberalization. The current way, of defining it as a presumption is Imo essentially meaningless, because it leads to a debate at every individual AfD about what the erelevant meaning should be. Remember, we make the rules, and what ever notability guideline we make by consensus can have whatever form and applicability we choose. DGG ( talk ) 07:34, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

• Support removal - This is a ridiculous low bar for some of the least encyclopedic, worst-written fluff bios on Wikipedia. Treat pornstars like all other movie actors — if they break through into popular culture, with requisite substantial coverage in reliable sources, by all means cover them. But the vapid pseudobios created by hobbyists because Trixie Shagsmore won the 2016 American Humper Award for the best threesome in a Volkswagen, etc. should be absolutely shitcanned as a low bar Special Notability Guideline. Deprecate — with fire. Carrite (talk) 03:38, 16 March 2019 (UTC)
• Support removal No problem with conventionally "unencyclopedic" topics, but I expect them to have significant coverage beyond trade press and niche websites. No problem if a better vetted SNG is re-added later. And yes, porn is probably not the only subject with this problem.—Bagumba (talk) 10:37, 16 March 2019 (UTC)
• Support removal. I think we need to keep in mind the purpose of SNGs in general. As I see it, a supplementary guideline exists because there are sets of topics that "should" be notable (by which I mean editors would broadly agree that they need to be covered by a good encyclopedia) but would not normally meet GNG, or cannot be shown to meet GNG. Scholars are a good example; politicians in countries outside the anglosphere are another. We have had something of a proliferation of SNGs, particularly with respect to biographies, which has led to a corresponding proliferation of low-grade biographies of individuals with no lasting impact. PORNBIO is a perfect example of this. Pornographic actors in general are nowhere near significant enough in the larger scheme of things that we need to lower the bar for notability for them with respect to either actors or biographies in general. Vanamonde (Talk) 06:46, 19 March 2019 (UTC)
• Support removal The purpose of SNGs as I see it is to allow editors to quickly determine which topics are highly likely to meet the GNG if a more in-depth search was completed. State or provincial legislator? Check. Olympic athlete? Check. The problem with PORNBIO is that a very large percentage of performers who pass it nominally will fail GNG upon closer examination. The bottom line is that winning a porn industry insider backscratching award is simply not a reliable indicator of genuine notability. This does not mean that all porn stars are non-notable but far too many of them are non-notable upon closer examination. They should be held to the same standards as other entertainers. The argument that I often hear is that the "mainstream media" discriminates against porn stars. Perhaps. But that is a gripe, valid or not, against the sources that we recognize as reliable, not against Wikipedia itself. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 07:11, 19 March 2019 (UTC)
• Support removal I believe GNG is more than sufficient. -- Dolotta (talk) 19:10, 20 March 2019 (UTC)
• Support removal Redundant with GNG. -BRAINULATOR9 (TALK) 16:58, 21 March 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose removal - We NEED a guideline here, and this one can always be revised. While there are a few editors who are enthusiasts in the subject area, from what I've seen the more serious problem is the widespread bias against the subject. Any porn-related AFD get spammed with garbage 'delete' votes even when there are hundreds of sources and the subject would blatantly pass the GNG in any other genre. We shouldn't be including a bio just because it mentions porn, but we sure-as-hell shouldn't be deleting any bio just because it mentions porn. Alsee (talk) 11:50, 23 March 2019 (UTC)
• Support removal As a misanthrope, I always want to stop "a few editors who are enthusiasts in the subject area". We, the community, are fed up with your fandom. If you wanted to keep articles about your shameful hobby, you should have done more to restrain the random editors who contributed too much to this ill pursuit. Chris Troutman (talk) 14:15, 24 March 2019 (UTC)

Discussion regarding PORNBIO

• I've taken the liberty of formatting this as an RfC above the point where Legacypac and K.e.coffman began casting bolded !votes. If either of you take issue with this feel free to move your comments to the threaded discussion above or below. GMG^talk 22:05, 22 February 2019 (UTC)

Good. Thanks Legacypac (talk) 22:08, 22 February 2019 (UTC)

• One point that often seems to be forgotten in deletion discussions about porn actors is that all pages are subject to WP:BLP, by which all content about living people needs to be reliably sourced, whatever notability guidelines might suggest. All porn industry web sites that I have seen routinely publish fantasy made-up "biographies" of porn actors, so they are not reliable and can't be the basis of an article about a living porn actor. There seems to be an assumption by some editors that people somehow lose their humanity if they are filmed taking part in sexual activity, so they lose the protection that every other living person gets. Phil Bridger (talk) 12:34, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
  • Its not so much a question about sourcing but the reliability and independence of that sourcing. What's been identified is that there is very little coverage of the porn industry outside of the works that drive the porn industry, meaning there's conflicts of internet, etc, and thus we're lacking independent coverage of that. This is what happened in the mixed-martial arts area a few years ago - coverage outside of MMA-organized periodicals was rare. We need that independence for notability. --Masem (t) 17:51, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
• My opinion at this time, is to reduce this to the level of WP:ESSAY. While I am of the opinion the the notability criteria of musicians is to lax (a separate subject I know), it can be said in some cases that having a notability essay or guideline about a certain subject, which have consensus from experts within that field of editing, can serve as a filter to ensure that only the truly notable are allowed to have an article on Wikipedia. We have WP:NOTPAPER, but we also have WP:GNG. What constitutes as a notable award within the field of pornography? What is the Oscar or BAFA of porn? If ENT becomes the default, what constitutes "Has had significant roles in multiple notable films, television shows, stage performances, or other productions." If taken strictly, each of the "multiple notable" productions would have to pass GNG in order to provide a bar, if taken loosely, an actor/actress who have (say a dozen) multiple IMDB listings as "significant roles" now can warrant an article. Should Entertainers, whether pornographic or not, have the one and notable rule like WP:NBASE has; meaning one game in a "major league" grants notability?--RightCowLeftCoast (Moo) 18:27, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
• Before I give my opinion I would like to understand ... why sports news sites satisfy WP: GNG for sportmans articles, music sites satisfy WP: GNG for musicians, (include independent musicians) but adult video news sites does not satisfy WP: GNG for pornographic artists? I am afraid that the exclusion of WP: PORNBIO will result in a mass deletion of articles. Another question, rankings on sites like pornhub or followers on social networks might be considered?Guilherme Burn (talk) 23:23, 24 February 2019 (UTC)

Porn news sites that are RS are fine. No one said they are not. Sites and "awards" that are strictly promotional are not OK. Social media follower counts are often manipulated as it takes just a few days and a few bucks to get millions of views and followers. While views and followers are a possible indicator of notability, we need good RS still. Legacypac (talk) 23:36, 24 February 2019 (UTC)

• WikiProject Pornography provides useful guidance about the reliability of porn news sources. It specifically cautions about Adult Video News that its articles are often repackaged press releases. That appears to apply to XBiz as well. The porn trade press often crosses the line between covering the industry and promoting the industry. Legacypac's assessment of social media is also correct. Porn promotion floods the Internet. Promotional sources are unacceptable in verifying facts or establishing notability. • Gene93k (talk) 02:28, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
• @Guilherme Burn: That is a fair question. I contribute to American sports bios that have coverage in mainstream newspapers, but there are plenty of other sports that seem to justify their notability from respective sport specific sites.—Bagumba (talk) 10:16, 16 March 2019 (UTC)

• WP:PORNBIO should be kept separated from WP:ENT. I think pornography related topics should have their own set of guidelines for notability. However, there are huge conflicts with WP:GNG, especially with the sources. Therefore I propose amendments to PORNBIO. Probably participants of WP:PORN will help. THE NEW ImmortalWizard(chat) 12:46, 25 February 2019 (UTC)

• Note This guideline had its own page until 2007. Older discussions on the topic are available in the archives at Wikipedia talk:Notability (pornographic actors).  — Scott • talk 15:34, 11 March 2019 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

WP:PORNBIO redirect

Currently WP:PORNBIO is very widely linked. If this proposal succeeds in deprecating the SNG, then I suggest copying the content to Wikipedia:Notability (pornographic actors) and marking it historical. I think this is the best solution, as:

1. We can't just delete the redirect.
2. Redirecting to the top of WP:BIO is not helpful (especially given that many historical AfDs have cited it as policy rationale).
3. We don't want to keep a dead section around in WP:BIO indefinitely.

Thoughts? -- King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 04:08, 24 March 2019 (UTC)

Permalink to this discussion once closed with a statement saying it was depreciated (presumably that is the only reason to retarget the redirect)? Legacypac (talk) 04:16, 24 March 2019 (UTC)

• Since I do not see a consensus here yet I'm leaving this section open. I'm going to remove the section from the policy as that was the consensus reached above, but the redirects are another matter. RFD may be a better venue to decide this. Beeblebrox (talk) 19:52, 24 March 2019 (UTC)
• Support proposal to copy the content of the former SNG to the redirect and marking it historical, along with a permalink to the RfC. Leviv ich 20:30, 24 March 2019 (UTC)

Yes Levivich's solution is even better. Legacypac (talk) 21:01, 24 March 2019 (UTC)

Agreed. -- King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 00:58, 25 March 2019 (UTC)

• Support Levivich's proposal. Since Beeblebrox deleted the SNG completely and since we haven't figured out what to do with the redirect yet, I added a note about its deprecation on the main page (Wikipedia:Notability (people)). I don't intend for it to be permanent, but I do think it's helpful in the interim. SportingFlyer T·C 07:29, 25 March 2019 (UTC)

Notification of discussion

All--there is a discussion at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Wink Hartman about the application of Wikipedia:Notability (events) (specifically WP:ROUTINE) and its possible application toward an article about a person. You are invited to participate. I am involved in the discussion.--Paul McDonald (talk) 17:44, 15 March 2019 (UTC)