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Reference to Bureaucrat Mailing List

I just noticed that there is currently a reference to the former bureaucratic mailing list here. I figure that I should leave any specific changes to you. -- Dolotta (talk) 04:04, 25 December 2017 (UTC)

Thanks, I removed it. Renames are not a function of being a bureaucrat anymore. — xaosflux ^Talk 04:07, 25 December 2017 (UTC)

Question on "clouds"

Hi bureaucrats. I want to make sure my interpretation of policy here is accurate. If an administrator puts themselves up for a "reconfirmation" RfA and fails, is that considered to be a cloud in itself? I would think no. In a hypothetical circumstance where an admin has no recent history of abuse or poor judgement and yet resigns after a failed reconfirmation, could they request the mop back at any time? ~ Rob₁₃^Talk 17:36, 27 December 2017 (UTC)

I would say not a cloud, but also a failed reconfirmation RfA would mean loss of admin rights. They should be only returned after a successful RfA Worm^TT(talk) 18:17, 27 December 2017 (UTC)

Is there such a thing as a failed reconfirmation RfA, though? In the past, bureaucrats haven't closed them and have refused to recognize them because there is no policy that makes any mention of them. ~ Rob₁₃^Talk 18:31, 27 December 2017 (UTC)

Since there is no mechanism under which a reRfA can be binding, any resignation that stems from it must be voluntary, thus so would be reinstatement (barring any other ongoing issues at the time of the reRfA). It stands to reason that someone willing to undergo a reRfA out of their own free will would abide by its outcome just as willingly, and thus would be fine with going through a new RfA to recover the bit, but I don't think current policy can make any of that anything other than voluntary. Ben · Salvidrim! ✉ 19:19, 27 December 2017 (UTC)

I'd think it would put us in a messy situation policy-wise, especially if it was a voluntary reconfirmation RfA for a sitting admin, that then did not voluntarily resign. @Worm That Turned: for example if Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/Harrias 2 were to close as 'no consensus' (i.e. not "successful" (how about "withdrawn"?)) are you prepared to revoke the admin bit without a voluntary statement by the "candidate"? — xaosflux ^Talk 19:22, 27 December 2017 (UTC)

Unfortunately, we have no remit to remove the bit in that situation - but I'd certainly be putting pressure on for that voluntary statement. Worm^TT(talk) 23:16, 27 December 2017 (UTC)

I don't think cloud is the right word. Because the whole process is voluntary, the editor in question could choose to forego the administrator role based on any level of support that the editor felt was insufficient, even if there is still an overall consensus in support of the editor retaining administrative privileges. Instead I believe the editor should be giving up administrative privileges with the express condition that they not be restored unless the editor submits a successful request for administrative privileges in future. isaacl (talk) 04:58, 28 December 2017 (UTC)

My view is that if an admin failing a reconfirmation RfA is controversial circumstances that precludes restoration of the position. That would include: (i) a serving admin submits themselves for reconfirmation, doesn’t get community support and resigns as a result; and (ii) an admin who resigned under uncontroversial circumstances who submits an RfA instead of just asking for restoration of their rights and the RfA is unsuccessful. In my view, neither of these users who be eligible to have their adminship restored without a new - successful - RfA. WJBscribe (talk) 19:27, 27 December 2017 (UTC)

PS. I seem to remember (I think the candidate was Majorly) that an admin who resigned, ran a new RfA, then withdrew when it was obviously failing once divided bureaucrat opinion on this topic. Someone may be able to fish out the relevant threads from the archives... WJBscribe (talk) 19:29, 27 December 2017 (UTC)

This one? Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 19:31, 27 December 2017 (UTC)

Like magic :). I see Majorly pressed me on the point - see question 7 of my RfB. WJBscribe (talk) 19:39, 27 December 2017 (UTC)

I agree in general with WJBscribe, that an actual unsuccessful RfA or substantially RfA like process would disqualify automatic resysoping (under the specifically prevented by prior community consensus clause). If there were a situation where an admin had previously pledged to recall conditions and then failed a recall measure but did not volunteer to resign - I suspect ArbCom would get involved in evaluating any remedy. — xaosflux ^Talk 19:35, 27 December 2017 (UTC)

I agree. I don’t see a role for bureaucrats if an admin fails a recall measure but refuses to resign. WJBscribe (talk) 19:40, 27 December 2017 (UTC)

I agree with WJBscribe and xaosflux. A voluntary reRFA that fails would disqualify an editor from resysopping (in other words, it would be considered a "cloud"). I also agree that 'crats have no authority (per policy) to remove an admin bit if someone fails a reRFA and refuses to resign. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 01:25, 28 December 2017 (UTC)

Here's something to think about. Administrator A fails reRFA and Bureaucrat B removes the bit when Administrator A refuses to resign. What happens next? It's not like Bureaucrat B acted against community consensus based on the reRFA. I would imagine two things would happen: (a) a precedent would be set and (b) Bureaucrat B would keep his bit after at least a requests for arbitration but perhaps not a full case. Of course, you would need to find a Bureaucrat B who is foolhardy enough to unleash a shitstorm like that upon himself. :p Maxim_(talk) 01:40, 28 December 2017 (UTC)

Or, someone who wants this to be a thing needs to run a well-publicized RfC to modify current policy. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 01:45, 28 December 2017 (UTC)

Non-bureaucrat comment Precedent can only be set where policy is ambiguous. This case is very unambiguous - bureaucrats do not have the authority to desysop in cases other than voluntary resignation, ArbCom decision, inactivity, or in the case of a deceased Wikipedian (IAR probably permits emergency desysopping as well). The consensus from the two relevant RfCs (one and two) is that bureaucrats should only use their desysop powers in the cases explicitly defined by the community. Rather than setting precedent, I think that a bureaucrat desysopping an admin following a reRFA would be a highly contentious action that would probably be reverted. I think that for a reRFA result to be enforced, there would need to be explicit community consensus granting that authority to bureaucrats. -- Ajraddatz (talk) 02:14, 28 December 2017 (UTC)

AJ is almost certainly correct, though I think the idea of having such a ridiculously high bar at RfB is that we get bureaucrats who aren't daft enough to do that kind of thing. Having said that, I would hope an admin decent enough to submit themselves for reconfirmation would be decent enough to give up he bit if it was clear they no longer had the confidence of the community. Where an admin relinquishes their bit before running a reconfirmation RfA, I would imagine the 'crats would be on firm policy ground by refusing to restore the bit if the RfA was unsuccessful. I was daft enough to do this a few years ago and wouldn't have expected the bit back if the RfA had been unsuccessful. It's a shame we don't have a better process for admins to get feedback. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 02:37, 28 December 2017 (UTC)

I can't speak for the Committee on this, but I would personally be extremely concerned with a bureaucrat attempting to make policy (e.g. a "precedent") on reconfirmation RfAs through the use of their tools. I doubt any of you are seriously considering that beyond an intellectual exercise, but I'd certainly prefer that you not go there. Someone would be without the mop at the end of such a situation, and it's at best a toss-up whether it would be the bureaucrat or the desysopped admin. ~ Rob₁₃^Talk 04:26, 28 December 2017 (UTC)

I can't imagine a situation where, after a failed recon RfA, there would not be a CratChat before this hypothetical desysopping, so any such action would have the consensus of the 'Crats. If brought to ArbCom, it would be the mother of all ArbCom cases - the Committee against the 'Crats, and I couldn't see the Committee survive if they tried to sanction a 'Crat for acting under both community and 'Crat consensus. SilkTork (talk) 06:35, 28 December 2017 (UTC)

To my mind, an admin refusing to honour a recall commitment by resigning after a failed re-RFA is more naturally a matter for ArbCom than us bureaucrats. If ArbCom wouldn't pull the bits in those circumstances, then it sits uneasily for us to "fill the gap" through some sort of IAR use of our desysop powers. Maxim may be right that a bureaucrat who did so might hang on to his bureaucrat rights by the skin of his teeth, but I don't think it would do much for community confidence in us as a whole... WJBscribe (talk) 12:13, 28 December 2017 (UTC)

Kinda the whole point of the ‘crats is that they don’t act without a mandate or a rule backing them up, and they have neither in this situation. Seems moot in this case anyway as the rfa is clearly going to pass. Beeblebrox (talk) 04:34, 28 December 2017 (UTC)

• Separately, I'm vaguely wondering whether it's permissible for any editor to close such a reconfirmation RfA as completely not based in policy, redirecting the "candidate" to admin review. Hmm. ~ Rob₁₃^Talk 04:38, 28 December 2017 (UTC)

Note: Wikipedia: Administrator Review was closed due to lack of interest some time ago. Beeblebrox (talk) 04:47, 28 December 2017 (UTC)

Yes, but if there's renewed interest, it can be revived. ~ Rob₁₃^Talk 05:08, 28 December 2017 (UTC)

• • In my view, no. There's no policy against them, they just may not be binding if the admin chooses not to resign at the end. WJBscribe (talk) 12:18, 28 December 2017 (UTC)
• I'm surprised bureaucrats think a failed reconfirmation RfA is a "cloud" for the purposes of returning the mop. This begs the question: what is failure? Is it anything below consensus that would give the mop in the first place? If so, do bureaucrats get in the business of "de facto" closing reconfirmations in the discretionary zone because they have to make a determination of consensus or not? Is it consensus against (e.g. overwhelming opposition)? Is it whatever the close is done as, using whatever unknown metric the closer (possibly the admin being reconfirmed themselves!) decided upon? This is tricky business to give weight to a process not defined in any policy or guideline. ~ Rob₁₃^Talk 05:11, 28 December 2017 (UTC)
  • As the whole process is voluntary, the editor in question is the sole determinant of what level of support he/she deems sufficient to continue in the role of administrator. If the editor wants the relinquishment of the role to have any meaning, the editor should specify the express condition that the privileges cannot be restored until the editor successfully requests the privileges again. isaacl (talk) 05:31, 28 December 2017 (UTC)
  • There are many scenarios that could be in play, and event sequencing would matter. To get get more clarification you would need to present a detailed timeline. One reading I'm getting is an example of AdminA resigning normally, this being completed, AdminA not becoming lengthily inactive, later not asking to be summarily resysoped, then starting an RfA-2, then not passing RfA-2, then asking to be summarily resysoped anyway. In this case the newly emerged community consensus to not promote is what I would honor. Another crat may decide to proceed with the request. — xaosflux ^Talk 05:34, 28 December 2017 (UTC)
    • @Xaosflux: I'm thinking more about reconfirmation RfAs while they hold the mop. To throw out an "extreme" example, say an admin runs for reconfirmation. They get 90 supports and 10 opposes, something that would easily pass a normal RfA. They resign, saying they found the opposes convincing and doubted their own ability as an admin. They later ask for the mop back. This is a "failed" reconfirmation RfA, as determined by the candidate themselves, but would bureaucrats refuse to return the mop to someone with 90% support at a reconfirmation? Now consider the same scenario with exactly 74.5% support, at the upper end of the discretionary range. Would you return the mop? Does it depend on your reading of the discussion? ~ Rob₁₃^Talk 05:40, 28 December 2017 (UTC)
      • I think it would depend on reading as RfA's aren't "votes" anyway. Also keep in mind "my" inaction (in not resysoping) is always allowed - enforcing a non-resysoping would require basically every crat not acting. If reconfirmation RfA's are going to be a thing, a community policy for how to use the results should be further defined. — xaosflux ^Talk 05:52, 28 December 2017 (UTC)
• I want to throw a wrench into this neat thinking and offer the following: a failed reconfirmation RFA may be a cloud depending on what it says. If the community brings up a policy dispute or sound reasoning based on the admin's actions or behavior to fail the reconfirmation RFA, that is a cloud if the admin then resigns under the weight of those issues raised. If we have opposing comments along the lines of, "I oppose all self-noms" or "reconfirmation RFAs are self-indulgent and disruptive," I would urge any admin not to resign on that basis. It might technically still be a cloud, but bureaucrats weigh arguments and reconfirmation-runners should do the same. However, I can imagine a hypothetical scenario where an admin resigned after a reconfirmation RFA but it was not a cloud, because no policy-based arguments were raised against that admin. It wouldn't be a "constitutional crisis" so long as the crat performing the desysopping had a policy-based discussion and closing that it was not a cloud in such a case. Of course, we can solve this problem by a) not resigning and b) not having reconfirmation RFAs to begin with. Andrevan@ 08:11, 28 December 2017 (UTC)

  But we wouldn't close such a hypothetical re-RfA as unsuccessful, would we? If the admin runs a re-RfA here, it's subject to bureaucrat discretion to determine the outcome. If the only ground of opposition is "I object to re-RfAs" there is clearly a consensus for the user to remain an admin, so it would closed as successful. WJBscribe (talk) 12:22, 28 December 2017 (UTC)

  Agreed, but a reconfirmation before resignation wouldn't be closed by bureaucrats, right? Andrevan@ 08:12, 29 December 2017 (UTC)

  Correct. Technically, a reconfirmation is not an RfA since they already have adminship. It would need to be closed by someone else. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 17:56, 29 December 2017 (UTC)

  We need someone who is sort of but not really a crat? Sounds like a job for User:Aardvark Floquenbeam! 18:04, 29 December 2017 (UTC)

Ach, das Floquenvark! :o >SerialNumber54129^{...speculates} 18:12, 29 December 2017 (UTC)

According to Xaosflux, above at 19:35, 27 December 2017 (UTC): If there were a situation where an admin had previously pledged to recall conditions and then failed a recall measure but did not volunteer to resign - I suspect ArbCom would get involved in evaluating any remedy.
According to WJBscribe, above at 12:13, 28 December 2017 (UTC): an admin refusing to honour a recall commitment by resigning after a failed re-RFA is more naturally a matter for ArbCom than us bureaucrats.
I don't know if there is a recent precedent, but I am sure there have been successful recall efforts where the admin declined to resign and ArbCom did nothing (Elonka comes to mind), so we are already well past the point where this issue ceased to be theoretical. Harrias' reRfA is not going to bring it to a head as the result will clearly be successful, but this topic is not going away and relying on ArbCom is an arbitrary given its changing composition and unsatisfactory for a community accountability mechanism given ArbCom already have desysopping authority. I think seeking to construct a principled mechanism with authority for bureaucrats to act without an impending crisis is much more desirable than trying to build one on-the-fly in the face of a crisis, a community spit in its views, and an admin fighting to preserve her or his mop. EdChem (talk) 23:59, 29 December 2017 (UTC)

@EdChem: for reference, can you provide example links to both the failed reconfirmation, and the declined case request? — xaosflux ^Talk 00:03, 30 December 2017 (UTC)

I found the case decline, Special:PermaLink/234867942#Elonka. That was almost 10 years ago and the new committee may be more open to review, however I agree that a prior community policy update is much preferred. — xaosflux ^Talk 00:09, 30 December 2017 (UTC)

I can't say how other arbs would respond, but I would decline any case that stems solely from an admin not following through on recall or a reconfirmation RfA. Both things have no basis in policy, and the Arbitration Committee cannot form policy. ~ Rob₁₃^Talk 00:19, 30 December 2017 (UTC)

Even that old example had a decline note in that how the case is requested is important, a case would need to be opened under a policy based complaint such as WP:ADMINACCT, the research used by objectors may be available as evidence if they were not baseless. — xaosflux ^Talk 00:29, 30 December 2017 (UTC)

Rob₁₃, I'm concerned by your comment that "I would decline any case that stems solely from an admin not following through on recall or a reconfirmation RfA." The declines in the Elonka case make much of a lack of a specific example of tool misuse, but ArbCom's since that time have recognised that there may be a case or even a desysopping in the absence of specific tool misuse where an admin has lost the trust of the Committee or engaged in conduct unbecoming of / inconsistent with the role of administrator. Can you imagine a case request where an administrator had failed a recall attempt or reRfA but had not engaged in alleged tool misuse, alleged conduct unbecoming, or potentially lost the trust of the arbitrators? Xaosflux mentions that framing of case requests is important, which I recognise is an issue, though I see as disappointing in that I would hope arbitrators could recognise a potential case in such circumstances no matter how the sides attempt to frame it. I think a recall attempt that has satisfied the admin's own criteria or a reRfA that has failed are evidence of a loss of trust from the community, so simply declining a case on the grounds that those actions are unenforceable is tantamount to declaring the support of the community is irrelevant to any editor continuing as an administrator. It also leaves the bureaucrats in the unenviable position of doing nothing about someone who has lost the trust of the community knowing that ArbCom may similarly doing nothing, or respecting the will of the community knowing that ArbCom may decide to sanction any bureaucrat that acts. To me, your comments illustrate once again why enWP needs a desysop procedure that does not involve ArbCom at all, and why the admin community collectively are likely to continue to impose such an accountability mechanism. Sad  :( EdChem (talk) 12:05, 30 December 2017 (UTC)

I agree fully that the community needs a desysopping policy. The problem is that, in the absence of that, the Arbitration Committee must be careful not to create that policy by fiat. It would very much depend on why the reconfirmation RfA failed. If it failed due to policy violations or a history of poor actions, then we could look at that. The reconfirmation itself would bear no more weight in my mind than a case request supported by several community members, though. We cannot give weight to a process that has no basis in policy without giving that process the weight of a de facto policy. I'm very much concerned with ensuring ArbCom does not act as an "end around" to broader community consensus on the desysopping policy, even if I think that consensus is horrible. ~ Rob₁₃^Talk 14:44, 30 December 2017 (UTC)

After (edit conflict): Recall proposal and related RfC, Xaosflux. I'm not denying that this example is from a long time ago by WP terms, nor do I suggest anything be done about that specific issue now. I am saying that the problem is not new, however, that an ArbCom demonstrated a willingness to choose not to act, and that the possibility of it being dumped to the bureaucrats' doorstep remains possible. That being the case, a crisis necessitating the adoption of a solution may be the only way to force a pathway forwards, but a planned path would be greatly preferable. EdChem (talk) 00:23, 30 December 2017 (UTC)

The issue can be reopened with a policy RfC (Wikipedia talk:Administrators) at anytime. — xaosflux ^Talk 00:31, 30 December 2017 (UTC)

I suppose it’s been a few years since the last time we tried to have a real community-based desysop or reconfirmation procedure, maybe there’s someone feeling masochistic who wants to try it again, but it has been repeatedly rejected in the past. WP:PEREN#Adminship appears to have a listing of the most recent relevant discussions on this topic. P.S. I am out of the “giant policy RFC” business, but I did draft one for community de-adminship a few years ago in my sandbox and would be happy to restore it and give it to anyone who wanted to use it for reference, as a jumping-off point, etc. Beeblebrox (talk) 01:49, 30 December 2017 (UTC)

Sadly, Beeeblebrox, I doubt anything has changed in the admin community collectively includes enough members who will oppose any such move to make them accountable either to protect themselves or with arguments that they support "in principle" but see the specific proposal as two dangerous / opening to gaming / etc.  :( EdChem (talk) 12:10, 30 December 2017 (UTC)

In the interest of strict accuracy, plenty of non-admins shared the same concerns the last time such a proposal came up and support among admins was fairly split the time before that. Besides, "too open to gaming" has been a concern for every proposal so far. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 12:19, 30 December 2017 (UTC)