Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Clarification and Amendment
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Currently, there are no requests for arbitration.
| Request name | Motions | Case | Posted |
|---|---|---|---|
| Clarification request: American politics 2 | none | (orig. case) | 4 November 2022 |
| Amendment request: Iranian politics | none | (orig. case) | 10 November 2022 |
| Clarification request: Appeal restrictions as part of discretionary sanctions | none | none | 2 November 2022 |
No arbitrator motions are currently open.
Requests for clarification and amendment
Use this page to request clarification or amendment of a closed Arbitration Committee case or decision.
- Requests for clarification are used to ask for further guidance or clarification about an existing completed Arbitration Committee case or decision.
- Requests for amendment are used to ask for an amendment or extension of existing sanctions (for instance, because the sanctions are ineffective, contain a loophole, or no longer cover a sufficiently wide topic); or appeal for the removal of sanctions (including bans).
Submitting a request: (you must use this format!)
- Choose one of the following options and open the page in a new tab or window:
- Click here to file a request for clarification of an arbitration decision or procedure.
- Click here to file a request for amendment of an arbitration decision or procedure (including an arbitration enforcement action issued by an administrator, such as a contentious topics restriction).
- Click here to file a referral from AE requesting enforcement of a decision.
- Click here to file a referral from AE appealing an arbitration enforcement action.
- Save your request and check that it looks how you think it should and says what you intended.
- If your request will affect or involve other users (including any users you have named as parties), you must notify these editors of your submission; you can use
{{subst:Arbitration CA notice|SECTIONTITLE}}to do this. - Add the diffs of the talk page notifications under the applicable header of the request.
Please do not submit your request until it is ready for consideration; this is not a space for drafts, and incremental additions to a submission are disruptive.
Guidance on participation and word limits
Unlike many venues on Wikipedia, ArbCom imposes word limits. Please observe the below notes on complying with word limits.
- Motivation. Word limits are imposed to promote clarity and focus on the issues at hand and to ensure that arbitrators are able to fully take in submissions. Arbitrators must read a large volume of information across many matters in the course of their service on the Committee, so submissions that exceed word limits may be disregarded. For the sake of fairness and to discourage gamesmanship (i.e., to disincentivize "asking forgiveness rather than permission"), word limits are actively enforced.
- In general. Most submissions to the Arbitration Committee (including statements in arbitration case requests and ARCAs and evidence submissions in arbitration cases) are limited to 500 words, plus 50 diffs. During the evidence phase of an accepted case, named parties are granted an automatic extension to 1000 words plus 100 diffs.
- Sectioned discussion. To facilitate review by arbitrators, you should edit only in your own section. Address your submission to arbitrators, not to other participants. If you wish to rebut, clarify, or otherwise refer to another submission for the benefit of arbitrators, you may do so within your own section. (More information.)
- Requesting an extension. You may request a word limit extension in your submission itself (using the {{@ArbComClerks}} template) or by emailing clerks-l
lists.wikimedia.org. In your request, you should briefly (in 1-2 sentences) include (a) why you need additional words and (b) a broad outline of what you hope to discuss in your extended submission. The Committee endeavors to act upon extension requests promptly and aims to offer flexibility where warranted.
- Members of the Committee may also grant extensions when they ask direct questions to facilitate answers to those questions.
- Refactoring statements. You should write carefully and concisely from the start. It is impermissible to rewrite a statement to shorten it after a significant amount of time has passed or after anyone has responded to it (see Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines § Editing own comments), so it is often advisable to submit a brief initial statement to leave room to respond to other users if the need arises.
- Sign submissions. In order for arbitrators and other participants to understand the order of submissions, sign your submission and each addition (using
~~~~). - Word limit violations. Submissions that exceed the word limit will generally be "hatted" (collapsed), and arbitrators may opt not to consider them.
- Counting words. Words are counted on the rendered text (not wikitext) of the statement (i.e., the number of words that you would see by copy-pasting the page section containing your statement into a text editor or word count tool). This internal gadget may also be helpful.
- Sanctions. Please note that members and clerks of the Committee may impose appropriate sanctions when necessary to promote the effective functioning of the arbitration process.
General guidance
- Arbitrators and clerks may summarily remove or refactor discussion without comment.
- Requests from blocked or banned users should be made by e-mail directly to the Arbitration Committee.
- Only arbitrators and clerks may remove requests from this page. Do not remove a request or any statements or comments unless you are in either of these groups.
- Archived clarification and amendment requests are logged at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Index/Clarification and Amendment requests. Numerous legacy and current shortcuts can be used to more quickly reach this page:
Clarification request: American politics 2
| Clarification request closed. Dreamy Jazz talk to me | my contributions 13:24, 4 November 2022 (UTC) |
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| The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
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Initiated by Interstellarity at 15:26, 2 October 2022 (UTC) List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request
Statement by InterstellarityThe Watergate scandal article seems to be covered for the AP2 sanction, but it was placed before the date was changed from 1932 to 1992. I am hoping that someone can clarify if the sanction should be removed. Statement by Thryduulf (AP2)Are the sanctions still required? The talk page is extremely quiet and a glance at the article history shows nothing that the pending changes isn't handling and might even be handled better by standard semi protection. Thryduulf (talk) 15:53, 2 October 2022 (UTC) Statement by TamzinI think a lot of the issue here is some poorly-worded templates. I've started a discussion at Template talk:Ds § Finally handling "legacy topic areas". Arbs, would anything I've proposed there require ArbCom sign-off to implement? -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (she|they|xe) 09:37, 8 October 2022 (UTC)
For what it's worth, after looking through case history and WP:AELOG, the legacy/obsolete breakdown for fully-rescinded DS regimes would appear to be:
Notes -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (she|they|xe) 21:52, 8 October 2022 (UTC) Statement by {other-editor}Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should opine whether and how the Committee should clarify or amend the decision or provide additional information. American politics 2: Clerk notes
American politics 2: Arbitrator views and discussion
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Amendment request: Iranian politics
| Amendment request declined. –MJL ‐Talk‐☖ 17:33, 10 November 2022 (UTC) |
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| The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
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Initiated by Stefka Bulgaria at 09:34, 12 October 2022 (UTC)
Statement by Stefka BulgariaI'm not familiar with these appeals; sorry if I didn't fill this correctly. It's been a year since I was topic-banned from editing articles relating to Iranian politics. My edits in other areas (since I was topic-banned) have been constructive, and I've had a good chance to reflect and learn from the issues I had with other editors back then. With everything that's been happening in Iran these last weeks, I think I could be a useful contributor in this area once again. Also, editors I had issues prior to being topic-banned have mostly been topic-banned themselves or blocked for socking, so I don't believe that I would have problems working collaboratively in this area again. Anyways, thank you for your consideration.
Statement by Thryduulf (Iranian politics)They were topic banned because they Statement by HistoryofIranConsidering the majority of Stefka Bulgaria's edits were in this topic, I don't find it surprising that their editing activity has decreased. It's hard to find another niche. The Iranian Politics area is a cesspool which suffers from POV editing (including dirty tactics such as WP:GAMING), and a lack of monitoring admins (I don't blame them), which makes it a lot more difficult to adhere to our guidelines (which is mainly why I left that area). While Stefka Bulgaria's hands may not be completely clean (then again, whose are?), I think they did a lot more good in that area than many others, and thus deserves another chance. --HistoryofIran (talk) 13:07, 27 October 2022 (UTC) Statement by {other-editor}Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should address why or why not the Committee should accept the amendment request or provide additional information. Iranian politics: Clerk notes
Iranian politics: Arbitrator views and discussion
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Clarification request: Appeal restrictions as part of discretionary sanctions
Initiated by ToBeFree at 20:09, 2 November 2022 (UTC)
- Case or decision affected
- WP:AC/DS
List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
- ToBeFree (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) (initiator)
Enforcing administrators:
- Ymblanter (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
- Doug Weller (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
- The Blade of the Northern Lights (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) (added 21:00, 2 November 2022 (UTC))
- RegentsPark (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) (added 21:00, 2 November 2022 (UTC))
Affected users:
- Shirshore (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Onengsevia (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Stix1776 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Bookku (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request
- diff of notification of Ymblanter
- diff of notification of Doug Weller
- diff of notification of The Blade of the Northern Lights
- diff of notification of RegentsPark
- diff of notification of Shirshore
- diff of notification of Onengsevia
- diff of notification of Stix1776
- diff of notification of Bookku
Statement by ToBeFree
Wikipedia:Arbitration_enforcement_log/2022#Horn_of_Africa currently contains two entries saying "with an appeal possible in six months". There may be other, similar restrictions elsewhere; I didn't search for more. I'd like to know if such restrictions on appeals are compatible with the WP:AC/DS procedures. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 20:09, 2 November 2022 (UTC)
- If it had been a single entry, I'd have asked the administrator who has placed it; I was looking at multiple entries and wanted to avoid starting multiple individual discussions with possibly varying results. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 20:46, 2 November 2022 (UTC)
- I've looked for more from 2022 alone and feel confirmed in my decision to raise this centrally. I'm adding two parties for [1] and [2]. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 21:00, 2 November 2022 (UTC)
Statement by Ymblanter
I absolutely can not recollect the case, but reading the AE discussion I closed I see that the proposal was indeed "TB which can be appealed in 6 months". I guess what I meant was that the TB is best appealed after 6 months and has very little chances to lead to a successful appeal before that, but I see indeed that this is not what I logged. My apologies.--Ymblanter (talk) 20:29, 2 November 2022 (UTC)
- May I please also notice that TBF did not attempt to discuss the issue with me prior to filing this request. Ymblanter (talk) 20:35, 2 November 2022 (UTC)
Statement by Doug Weller
Apologies. Of course we shouldn't deny the right of appeal at any time. I thought I'd seen this before and hadn't considered the implications. Doug Weller talk 16:47, 3 November 2022 (UTC)
- Mind you the editor I topic banned just blocked his page and blew through the TB. Doug Weller talk 16:24, 4 November 2022 (UTC)
Statement by The Blade of the Northern Lights
Statement by RegentsPark
Agreed that an appeal can be filed immediately so, yes, mea culpa. In the particular case pointed to above, there was some discussion among the commenting admins about a timed t-ban, and that's part of the reason why the 6 months showed up there but I should have timed it to "exactly six months" to make it appealable. The current appeal system, imo, is a good one and I have no problems with it. Also, thanks to ToBeFree for bringing this up because, although on first glance this appears to be merely procedural, it is actually important for ensuring that our messaging be clear and not confusing. --RegentsPark (comment) 16:32, 3 November 2022 (UTC)
Statement by Shirshore
Statement by Onengsevia
Statement by Stix1776
Statement by Bookku
Took note of this helpful discussion. After overwhelming discussions small time gap can be helpful break for users too for study and reflection about what all went wrong. Bookku (talk) 13:10, 4 November 2022 (UTC)
Statement by Abecedare
My 2c: appeals by sanctioned editors fall essentially into two categories:
- "This sanction is unjustified"
- "This sanction may have been justified when placed but is no longer needed"
No administrator/venue should be able to place a limit of when the first kind of appeal can be placed since that would remove an essential check on their authority. However, it should be permissible for the sanction notice to specify when the second kind of appeal can be placed (as long as the time period is reasonable) both to prevent too-early appeals that are almost certain to be rejected and as a carrot to improve conduct.
As an example of what I mean, see this DS I had placed with a note appended that said, I have kept the topic area of the ban narrow in the hope that you can learn to edit productively in other areas and even ask for this ban to be rescinded say 3 months from now.
I hope that the committee will not disallow that kind of "limit/encouragement" even while clarifying that I couldn't have (hypothetically) prohibited the editor from appealing the sanction to AN/AE/ARCA at any point they wished. Abecedare (talk) 15:33, 3 November 2022 (UTC)
Statement by Vanamonde
I agree with my colleagues above and below that individual admins obviously cannot obviate all rights of appeal, and that's wording we need to be careful about. However, if memory serves, admins at AE sometimes decline an appeal and simultaneously prohibit AE appeals for a given period of time. And this actually makes sense to me, because it's not about obviating the right of appeal, but rather saying "any appeal at this venue will be unsuccessful for this period of time". Sometimes want to avoid repeated appeals, and the sanctioned user would always have the option of coming to ARCA (I'm assuming this is non-controversial; if diffs are needed, I can dig them up later). It seems logical to say that individual admins may also state that they will not personally consider appeals for a given period, with the user still having the option of appealing to AE, AN, or ARCA. Vanamonde (Talk) 16:50, 3 November 2022 (UTC)
Statement from Harry
I came to make largely the same observation as Abecedare. I assume that these time limits on "appeals" were intended to mean that the sanction can be reviewed after that length of time, which is how I've used them in the past. They should not be taken, and I doubt the sanctioning admins intended them to be taken, as preventing the first kind of appeal, which asks other admins/the community/ArbCom to review the sanction because the sanctioned editor feels it is unjust. I would suggest using the term "review" or coming up with another ArbCom/WP policy neologism to distinguish appeals on the grounds that a sanction is no longer necessary. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 19:35, 3 November 2022 (UTC)
Statement by El_C
Hello. I'm not sure where Worm That Turned's quote of me is from, but it sounds about right. I believe the prevailing understanding is that outright moratoriums on appeals, as opposed to recommendations, are the sole domain of ArbCom (for WP:ACDS; the community for WP:GS). The argument that a consensus of AE admins on the WP:AE board, which obviously is a level higher than a single sanctioning admin, could also do that, is not something I have a strong opinion on. I have a vague recollection of a consensus of AE admins placing ~year'ish moratoriums on certain appellants who appeal, say, every 6 months over the span of years and years. And I've also a vague memory of it sticking without objections. But maybe it was a dream, whose to say?
But even at that event, if an admin were to remove such an appeal, from either AE or AN, the option to still appeal here at ARCA, as Barkeep49 notes below, nonetheless would remain open. At which point the Committee may be prompted to comment on AE board-derived moratoriums. But that has yet to happen as far as I'm able to recall, and overall has not been an issue of note. So this might mostly be theory. By contrast, I have a clear memory of ArbCom itself imposing moratoriums on appeals, I believe very recently even, though, I'm too lazy to look it up. BTW, a while back, Barkeep was wary of having too many AE appeals end up at ARCA, but to that I say: it's probably 80 percent AN, 20 percent AE, and negligible at ARCA, so I wouldn't really worry about it.
Anyway, I rambled for a while, but to reiterate as per the ping: take for example the last TBAN I imposed, currently being appealed (←live, permalink), to unanimous opposition I might add. Consider how I phrased it on that user's talk page: Now, while I strongly recommend you wait 6 months before appealing this sanction, you could technically do so immediately. But my sense is that it'll go about as well as your p-block appeals above [...]
(diff). So that's been my MO, overall. At the least, a single sanctioning admin doesn't have the authority to override the right of appeal. El_C 17:58, 10 November 2022 (UTC)
Statement by {other-editor}
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should opine whether and how the Committee should clarify or amend the decision or provide additional information.
Appeal restrictions as part of discretionary sanctions: Clerk notes
- This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).
Appeal restrictions as part of discretionary sanctions: Arbitrator views and discussion
- I'd love to understand the intent of Ymblanter and Doug Weller. If the intent is to ban all appeals I would say that is outside of DS power - at minimum they could appeal to us at ARCA. If the intent is "the appeal can be handled without needing to meet the DS criteria by third parties", that feels in line with the changes proposed to DS. Barkeep49 (talk) 20:12, 2 November 2022 (UTC)
- So in terms of resolving this particular issue is the answer a direction to clerks to strike those phrases and to otherwise proceed with the documentation of this consensus we've been doing for ARCAs? Barkeep49 (talk) 17:05, 4 November 2022 (UTC)
- The appeals procedure described at Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee/Discretionary sanctions § Appeals and modifications is immediately available upon imposition of a restriction under the DS procedure. Best, KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 20:20, 2 November 2022 (UTC)
- I don't think an AE sanction can be made unappealable for a certain time period, particularly at the time it is imposed. That said, an appeal of a reasonably placed sanction will almost certainly fail within the first six months, which is true not only for AE actions, but also for community imposed sanctions and a lot of types of indefinite blocks. Maxim(talk) 12:22, 3 November 2022 (UTC)
- While I agree that current policy prohibits a prohibition on appeals, I would venture that it would be valuable to prevent specious appeals. But perhaps that can be handled without an AE consensus or isn't a common issue from restrictions levied at AE. Anyway, I'd probably only allow such a use for appealing to AE, if it were desirable to change the policy on the point, allowing the other two locations to remain a location for appeal. (Need to review what the new version of the DS procedures says.) --Izno (talk) 19:54, 3 November 2022 (UTC)
- I can see a moratorium on appeals if they become disruptive, but otherwise I agree with my colleagues above. Primefac (talk) 13:18, 4 November 2022 (UTC)
- This sort of turned from El_C saying quite reasonably, that "if a user edited productively for 6 months, it would be likely that their appeal would be upheld" into "don't appeal for 6 months" and then it got repeated over and over. The former is fine, the latter isn't. Otherwise, I agree with my colleagues above. WormTT(talk) 13:58, 10 November 2022 (UTC)