Talk:Joseph James DeAngelo

Rapist?

How is the Original Night Stalker a rapist? There is nothing written or sourced in this article that shows this.--Paleface Jack (talk) 02:53, 19 January 2016 (UTC)

The ONS has been linked by DNA evidence to the East-Area Rapist and is now considered the same person. I agree that the article needs more information on this, as it's mentioned in general but not for any specific cases.--DearPrudence (talk) 08:35, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

Looks like mention of victims having been raped is now included for the ONS crimes. Mhacdebhandia (talk) 09:35, 23 April 2016 (UTC)

Still seems more overview style when talking about the rape attack and never goes it not how many people or any of the details about what happened (not graphic details but rather an encyclopedic detail as per Wiki's standards). There's just a paragraph long overview that seems to be too brief and not as detailed as the murders reported in the article.--Paleface Jack 22:53, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

Duplicated citations tag

@Paleface Jack: You recently added the {{duplicated citations}} tag to the article. What references are you referring to? Melonkelon (talk) 23:18, 26 May 2017 (UTC)

References 20-26 and 35-36 are all from the same source.--Paleface Jack (talk) 23:00, 28 May 2017 (UTC)

20–26 are different pages from the same site; each reference is a different type of model or graph, though I'm not sure it should be in the article. It seems to be an amateur source. I've just removed 35 and 36 because they are forum posts. Melonkelon (talk) 01:28, 29 May 2017 (UTC)

Connection to Visalia Ransacker

Just interested in learning more about why all mention of the Visalia Ransacker has been removed from the ONS article. Lack of good cites? Thanks! --Sephiroth9611 (talk) 17:20, 27 October 2017 (UTC)

Date of Manuela Witthuhn's murder

The article says it was February 6, 1981, but other sources I've checked say that it was February 5. Which date is correct? Melonkelon (talk) 22:16, 31 October 2017 (UTC)

Overly detailed tag

To editor Animalparty: could you please elaborate on why you have tagged this as overly detailed? I'd tend to disagree with that. I don't think this article goes into too much detail, given the extent of the Original Night Stalker's crimes. Melonkelon (talk) 04:07, 28 January 2018 (UTC)

Sure. intricate listing of dates, times, day of weeks. Full text of or large excerpts of letters, transcripts of phone calls, and the fact that virtually every fart or utterance has its own section makes this look more like a fan page than an encyclopedia article. Conciseness is a virtue. But I have no special interest in the case (other than maybe wanting to read a well-written article), and will not object if invested editors remove the template if they enjoy the status quo. --Animalparty! (talk) 04:23, 28 January 2018 (UTC)

I can see what you mean, but I still tend to disagree that it's overly detailed. The transcripts of the calls are important because they give context and the full text of the letters is helpful because they can be hard to read. Maybe the full texts could be removed and instead a link is provided to an external site with the text, I don't know. I don't know what you mean by "virtually every fart or utterance has its own section". Are you talking about the letters and calls? Melonkelon (talk) 04:54, 28 January 2018 (UTC)

I agree it is overly detailed, especially the phone call section. This is an encyclopedia, not a true crime website. The minutiae and salacious details better belong on one of the many true crime websites on the internet. Wikipedia should contain a summary of the case focused at people who are not specifically true crime fans. Ashmoo (talk) 11:19, 25 April 2018 (UTC)

Joseph DeAngelo arrest

Here is a purported arrest record for Joseph DeAngelo:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dbn_WVMVwAAaXCS.jpg:large (source: https://twitter.com/CriminologyPod/status/989102362626265089)

He was taken into custody early this morning (April 25, 2018) and there is some early reporting that he is the Golden State Killer. http://fox40.com/2018/04/24/sources-report-possible-break-in-east-area-rapist-case/

Also https://www.thedailybeast.com/golden-state-killer-arrested-according-to-co-author-of-ill-be-gone-in-the-dark Another copy of arrest info at https://imgur.com/KsERVNf Discussion at East Area Rapist/Original Night Stalker OFFICIALLY CAUGHT – everything we know so far 23.83.37.241 (talk) 14:17, 25 April 2018 (UTC)

But it's too early to say he *IS* the GSW, (as the article now states) no? There's a little detail about a trial and conviction? MikeyMoose (talk) 15:04, 25 April 2018 (UTC)

I agree this should say "(Suspect)" or "(alledged)" throughout for now, especially in infobox. Arrest, or arrest and charge is not the same thing as a conviction.Explainador (talk) 17:08, 25 April 2018 (UTC)

California police just confirmed via their press conference that DeAngelo's DNA matches DNA recovered at multiple EARONS crime scenes.

Will there be a page started for JD like the one for Stephen Paddock (Las Vegas Shooter)?

If it turns out he's the Golden State Killer (and it seems very likely since they got a DNA match), this page will probably be moved to "Joseph DeAngelo", in much the same way we don't have separate pages for "Ted Kaczynski" and "Unabomber". ^Falling_Gravity 04:01, 26 April 2018 (UTC)

Good point. The Ted Kaczynski page says he published a book in 2016! Who knew? I guess there is no such thing as bad publicity. It seems like the victims of crimes don't get as much publicity as the perpetrators do from the crimes though they probably don't want it anyway.

Media section

The newly added "Media" section seems entirely unneeded, and is a dead link to a non-existing page, essentially advertising a (very good) recently released book. That seems unnecessary and out of place. I recommend removal, or bringing it into line.

Perhaps the additional media items relating to the case should be added, ie; the 2000 Cold Case Files episode and the new documentary that's currently being screened?

173.243.161.113 (talk) 00:35, 26 April 2018 (UTC)

Red links are used to encourage new articles. I am quite sure this book will have its own article in no time, given the recent developments. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 06:05, 26 April 2018 (UTC)

In fact, I may start the article. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 06:05, 26 April 2018 (UTC)

And I did: I'll Be Gone in the Dark: One Woman's Obsessive Search for the Golden State Killer. Thanks. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 12:51, 26 April 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 26 April 2018

In section 4.1.3, please add: DeAngelo is a native of Bath, NY. In August, 1979 he was fired from the police force. He was accused of shoplifting a hammer and a can of dog repellant from a hardware store on July 21, 1979.

One of his neighbors in California, Kevin Tapia said when he was a teen, DeAngelo falsely accused Tapia of throwing items onto his yard. Tapia's father and DeAngelo got into a heated exchange. “No one thinks they live next door to a serial killer,” Tapia said. “But at the same time, I’m just like, he was a weird guy. He kept to himself. When you start to think about it you’re like, I could see him doing something like that, but I would never suspect it.” Danny K Yo (talk) 01:49, 26 April 2018 (UTC)

References

 Done L293D (☎ • ✎) 13:33, 27 April 2018 (UTC)

Well, actually I couldn't really find the right place to put this. Where exactly would you want me to put it? There is already mention of his shoplifting. L293D (☎ • ✎) 13:36, 27 April 2018 (UTC)

 Not done: The page's protection level has changed since this request was placed. You should now be able to edit the page yourself. If you still seem to be unable to, please reopen the request with further details. qwerty6811 :-) Chat Ping me 18:04, 27 April 2018 (UTC)

Picture

You should take the third drawing of the FBI 2016's hand drawing of the serial killer as it looks very much like a younger DeAngelo.

Merge Visalia Ransacker into this article?

Since it's suspected that the Visalia Ransacker & the Golden State Killer are the same person, should the Visalia Ransacker article be merge into this article? Blaylockjam10 (talk) 04:13, 26 April 2018 (UTC)

• Support They should be merged, especially once a definitive connection has been made. They can be split again if it turns out he's not the one, but it's looking pretty likely that he is... Veryproicelandic (talk) 06:10, 26 April 2018 (UTC)
• Strongly oppose – Until the indicted/suspect/accused is specifically tried and convicted (or at least definitively connected via DNA) for the crimes cited in Visalia then there would be no reason to do so. There is still a due process, isn't there? Acting on assertions/indications/assumptions is for the police and mainstream media, not encyclopaedias. However, if convicted, I would be the first person to propose or support such a merger. JabberJaw (talk) 09:31, 26 April 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose That is, until we have more confirmation. The authorities have mostly behaved as if the two are the same since DeAngelo's arrest, though have cited 12 deaths, which would be 13 if the Visalia Ransacker crimes were included. However, they have not given out why they have done so. Carolus (talk) 15:19, 26 April 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose until conviction of DeAngelo.Porphyro (talk) 11:35, 2 May 2018 (UTC)

Note: this discussion is mirrored at Talk:Visalia Ransacker#Merge Visalia Ransacker into the Golden State Killer article?. Thanks. JabberJaw (talk) 09:39, 26 April 2018 (UTC)

Requested move 26 April 2018

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: clear consensus not to move the page to the proposed title at this time, per the discussion below; any future requests to change the article title should take WP:CRIME into consideration, as well. Dekimasuよ! 18:49, 26 April 2018 (UTC)

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Golden State Killer → East Area Rapist / Original Night Stalker – This is the name that this killer has been known for the longest time (the East Area Rapist ~ has been his name since the 70s and the latter had been added in the early 2000s.) and what his reddit sub calls him by. https://www.reddit.com/r/EARONS/ The FBI lead off their call to find him calling him the East Area Rapist. https://www.fbi.gov/news/stories/help-us-catch-the-east-area-rapist. Even if Golden State Killer now gets more hits on google, most true crime enthusiasts know him as EAR / ONS and it would be wrong to not refer to him by his more common name. CaptainPrimo (talk) 04:54, 26 April 2018 (UTC)

• Oppose Most of the national media seems to using the Golden State Killer moniker. That seems like it'll become the most common name. However, I'd be willing to consider moving this to Joseph DeAngelo. Blaylockjam10 (talk) 05:32, 26 April 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose – FBI and joint task force billboards in 2016 referred to the crook as the 'Golden State Killer'. Cheers! {{u|Checkingfax}} {Talk} 05:41, 26 April 2018 (UTC)
• I'm inclined to agree. While the GSK moniker is popular at the moment, largely due to Michelle MacNamara's book, EAR/ONS has been used the longest – and by the actual authorities.
• Oppose This guy hit the news as the Golden State Killer. "East Area Rapist" is not even half the story and not what he'll be remembered for. "Original Night Stalker" will get him confused with Richard Ramirez faster than you can say devil worshiper. Golden State will remind people of the area he operated in, and murder is what will get him taught in criminology classes... Veryproicelandic (talk) 06:16, 26 April 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose The current flood of attention in reliable sources uses the current title, and it seems highly likely that this trend will continue. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 06:19, 26 April 2018 (UTC)
• Comment – Taking all of that to note, Blaylock's idea seems better. How about changing the title to Joseph DeAngelo? CaptainPrimo (talk) 07:21, 26 April 2018 (UTC)

Propose that if and when he is convicted. The guy just got arrested today, and deserves a trial. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 08:34, 26 April 2018 (UTC)

• Oppose The move to this name was discussed less than a month ago. The media blitz could give us reason to revisit the decision if the reports were consistently using another name, but they're not. So the reasons above still apply. @CaptainPrimo and Blaylockjam10: That would be consistent with other WP serial killer articles (Unabomber, BTK killer, etc.), but I think we need a more authoritative assignment of blame than the current arrest/indictment. While early reports suggest a pretty solid case, I'd like something better. A conviction would be ideal, but that'll take a while. Is there some intermediate threshold we can use? 23.83.37.241 (talk) 08:05, 26 April 2018 (UTC)
• Strongly Oppose If the suspect is convicted of being "multiple" criminals (i.e VR, EAR, ONS) then these would eventually become sections within a single larger article based on the GSK, and with each section showing the evolution of his crimes. Until that time, leave the article as is under its newer common name. JabberJaw (talk) 10:05, 26 April 2018 (UTC)
• Snow oppose per above. wumbolo ^^^ 12:58, 26 April 2018 (UTC)
• Strongly Oppose Per reasons above. Sovietmessiah (talk) 13:21, 26 April 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose – Most sources use the term GSK and, until someone is convicted, it's the simplest, most accurate title you can have. -- Veggies (talk) 14:08, 26 April 2018 (UTC)
• Strongly Oppose — Slashes in article titles don't have the effect you think. They don't mean "or", but instead create a sub-article in Wikipedia. Moreover, I found the article with no trouble using "diamond knot killer" as search terms. The phrases in the proposed replacement title have been in the article a long time and are equally accessible with the search engine, so there is no need to change the title. — Quicksilver (Hydrargyrum)^{T @} 14:27, 26 April 2018 (UTC)
• Strongly Support This has been the long-standing term; GSK has overtaken it only since about DeAngelo's arrest. Regardless, if convicted, this will have to be retitled with his name. Carolus (talk) 15:15, 26 April 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose: To this day, this man is still predominantly known as the "Golden State Killer". The only change I can foresee is "Joseph James DeAngelo", after he is convicted X years down the road. DARTHBOTTO _talk•cont 16:28, 26 April 2018 (UTC)

He is predominantly known as EAR / ONS but I realize this isn't happening. I'm all for changing the name to his real name. CaptainPrimo (talk) 17:56, 26 April 2018 (UTC)

• Strong oppose we changed it once, also moving it to that would be confusing to some editors. Felicia (talk) 18:40, 26 April 2018 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Re-organization

The article is a total mess. A big chunk of the article are transcripts of his calls and letters. We don't need these posted in full. Summaries are what should be done. The actual killer, Joseph James DeAngelo, gets a small mention at the end. The psychological profile sections aren't really needed at all. It should be re-organized, and then focused on the case, the investigation, and Joseph James DeAngelo. Harizotoh9 (talk) 12:50, 26 April 2018 (UTC)

At this time it's an alleged killer, a suspect, or arrested person. Please be careful with that. -- zzuuzz ^(talk) 13:00, 26 April 2018 (UTC)

And the only one arrested. The investigation of him, his arrest, and subsequent trial, should be a major part of the article. Harizotoh9 (talk) 13:01, 26 April 2018 (UTC)

Yes, SIR! We'll start adding the many sources giving all those details right away, SIR! It's inexcusable that the article doesn't cover his trial. EEng 13:04, 26 April 2018 (UTC)

Agree that this article is a mess and likely to remain so for the near future. One idea I had was to hide the crime details in collapsible/drop down tabs – hence, the info is there for those who want details, but the article is not excessively detailed for the average reader. JabberJaw (talk) 13:09, 26 April 2018 (UTC)

For accessibility reasons, collapsing things in the body of an article is deprecated. Having fun! Cheers! {{u|Checkingfax}} {Talk} 19:27, 27 April 2018 (UTC)

Actually, and without having read the entirety, I believe the article is very well written and organized as it stands now... Collapsing matters is excellent for electronic devices and apps, however as a feature dealing with important details I disagree. The article is fine as it stands. (John G. Lewis (talk) 14:26, 13 August 2018 (UTC))

There might not be a trial. He is a suspect in custody. He might be released or he might plead guilty. 47.137.185.148 (talk) 01:47, 28 April 2018 (UTC)

Why "Golden State Killer"?

Why was the "East Area Rapist / Original Nightstalker" page renamed to "Golden State Killer"? To boost the book sales of a recently published book by the deceased wife of a celebrity who coined this term? 2A02:908:D74:3560:D8B7:5A6F:191:97A7 (talk • contribs) 13:47, 26 April 2018 (UTC)

Not sure if I'd go that far. But the reason the media are mostly calling him Golden State Killer is because that's what the wikipedia article was called when he was arrested. Most national media publications would not have been that aware of the case before the arrest, and would have turned somewhere like wikipedia to get familiar with the case. I'm going to keep using Original Night Stalker because it's a better sounding name; it's what he was called for years; and there have been so many serial killers in California, it doesn't feel right that he is the only one named after the state. 2a02:c7d:bd4:3800:1872:4967:cdab:32f8 (talk • contribs) 21:31, 26 April 2018 (UTC)

'Golden State Killer' is uninformative, and the creation of a single crime writer. Police still use EAR/ONS. I think article should be changed back to this. Nathanrobert86 (talk • contribs) 23:32, 27 April 2018 (UTC)

I consider myself an expert on serial killers and had never heard of the "Golden State Killer" before the recent arrest. It has always been Original Night Stalker. Wikipedia should not be used to promote sales of books. 47.137.185.148 (talk) 01:45, 28 April 2018 (UTC)

This "Golden State Killer," stuff is nonsense, for 30 years he was known as EAR/ONS and now out of nowhere the media invents a brand new name. Should be reverted back immediately. Bruce Campbell (talk) 02:40, 28 April 2018 (UTC)

We have had two discussions about this; both times the overwhelming consensus is to use the name "Golden State Killer", but to use all of the other names on disambiguation pages as well as redirects to this page. Samboy (talk) 02:41, 29 April 2018 (UTC)

From reading the transcripts of both discussions, I can only conclude that the majority of the editors involved don't have the first clue about the case. And as much as I have bought McNamara's book due to my interest in the case, I do feel like Wikipedia is persisting with GSK to help promote the sale of it. 2A02:C7D:BD4:3800:E15F:236:C4B3:4413 (talk) 10:56, 30 April 2018 (UTC)

This highlights a severe weakness of wikipedia: using the consensus of general editors to decide important choice points about articles. Anyone who knows the first thing about the case knows that the 'GSK' moniker was a recent invention by M. McNamara, and not used by law enforcement. I suppose I will have to stop using the page altogether. Not the first badly mismanaged page on this site. Nathanrobert86 (talk • contribs) 20:30, 30 April 2018 (UTC)

I also disagree with the article being "Golden State Killer"- it's a very recent name due to one journalist. Most of the sources refer to EAR/ONS. Porphyro (talk) 08:38, 1 May 2018 (UTC)

I totally agree with Nathanrobert86. One author coining a new name for her book is not justification enough in my mind to change things. People have been on this case for decades and have been going along just fine with EAR or ONS. Sephiroth9611 (talk) 02:29, 9 May 2018 (UTC)

I would support the page being moved to a variant of EAR/ONS. Natureium (talk) 14:21, 1 May 2018 (UTC)

Which "Golden State" killer are we talking about? There are a lot of serial killers who operated in California. The media should not be able to influence people to call this guy a name different than what he has been known by for decades - Original Night Stalker. Dahmer's Refrigerator (talk) 00:03, 5 May 2018 (UTC)

I've been away for a few months, and just read all this and the above. We use the most common name. If the most common name is now (de facto) GSK, then that is what we use. The encyclopaedia covers ALL English speaking peoples, not JUST America.

I understand that it was called sometjhing else before, but then people used to think thunder was caused by a great god in the sky.

Things change, and if they have indeed caught the culprit, the most common name will possibly be giving way to his real name.

I am a British citizen, did not know about any book, and do not care about the book, so PLEASE stop going on about "supporting the author"??

Chaosdruid (talk) 13:10, 3 September 2018 (UTC)

News searches (google)

• Joseph James DeAngelo site:nypost.com/2018
• allintitle: Golden State Killer site:nypost.com/2018
• allintitle: East Area Rapist site:www.sacbee.com/news/local/crime
• allintitle: Golden State Killer site:www.sacbee.com/news/local/crime
• "Joseph James DeAngelo" genealogy
• "East Area Rapist" genealogy

Z75SG61Ilunqpdb (talk) 00:30, 27 April 2018 (UTC)

Reverted page move

I reverted the page move from Joseph James DeAngelo back to Golden State Killer. I suggest creating a separate page for Joseph James DeAngelo, which adheres to WP:BLP for living persons. If indeed Golden State Killer should be renamed at this time or at a future time, a consensus should be reached by adding {{Requested move}} to this talk page.Hadron137 (talk) 05:58, 30 April 2018 (UTC)

There's no need for a separate page right now, if he's convicted of the crime, this article should and will be renamed after him and the ransacker article will be merged into this. GuzzyG (talk) 02:18, 2 May 2018 (UTC)

Hopefully he'll plead guilty and we can rename the page after him, instead of GSK, which is not even his name (EAR/ONS for the win!)

I am sure that GSK, EAR and ONS are NOT his name - but we have problems naming a page GSK/EAR/ONS ... we had to choose one, so we went for the most used, rahter than the longest one. If you think that is wrong, we had similar issues where Norfolk (the US Navy one) was apparently more deserving that Norfolk (the UK county). THe argument "it's been called Norfolk since before 1043" had little effect. :) Chaosdruid (talk) 13:14, 3 September 2018 (UTC)

Statute of limitations. "Cannot" be charged with rape?

An article in the San Francisco Chronicle (May 2, 2018) says that prosecutors in Yolo County "have not ruled out filing charges in the Davis rapes." Prosecutors said, "There is no statute of limitations for crimes with life sentences. That could mean rapes in which the attacker used a knife or gun could fall outside of the statute of limitations." So, even though the prosecutors face hurdles, the phrase "cannot be charged" may be too absolute at this time. The title of the article is "Charges of rape in question in Golden State Killer case." 47.151.26.155 (talk) 17:25, 4 May 2018 (UTC)

Why is the incorrect sketch being used after all this time?

This sketch does not look anything like Joseph James DeAngelo, the man whose DNA perfectly matches the killer's and who has been charged with the Golden State Killer's crimes. I have talked to victims and they are furious that you continue to run this picture, when there are literally a dozen or more actual pictures of DeAngelo easily available. This looks nothing like him.

It is in your own interest to take this sketch down because people have already begun to believe there is an agenda behind the use of this false image. None of the 20 or more sketches of the GSK look LESS like him than this one. Why are you still using it? It was never used in the prior 40 years until the FBI released it two years ago. Again, victims of this murderer are extremely upset with you. 72.214.253.120 (talk) 23:27, 10 May 2018 (UTC)

We do not use a picture of the arrested suspect in the lede of the article, as he has not been convicted of being the killer, and this article is about the killer. Furthermore, we are constrained to images which are available under a free copyright license. Looking at the images available in Category:Original Night Stalker I'm not sure which image you might be suggesting we use. However if you were to suggest an image I'm sure you'll receive some relevant comments. -- zzuuzz ^(talk) 23:41, 10 May 2018 (UTC)

None of the 20 or more sketches of the GSK look LESS like him than this one.

I think you mean the ONS, or are you a glory hunter new to the case, swooping in telling everyone who you are and what you know, like Cheese in The Wire. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:C7D:BD4:3800:546D:3E56:207C:8A55 (talk) 21:05, 14 June 2018 (UTC)

I feel like there may be some hyperbole in play here.--NapoliRoma (talk) 04:00, 11 May 2018 (UTC)

Audio recording of phone harassment

Would someone get a recording of Golden State Killer's phone call harassment and put it into the article?TonyMorris68 (talk) 05:55, 18 August 2018 (UTC)

February 2nd 1978 attack in East Area Rapist section

I believe this has to be clarified if meant to be a rape or the murder of the Maggiore couple. I believe it is the latter, but it is confusing right now. Can someone confirm that there were no rapes in that date? If that is the case I believe it should be removed from the table for clarification purposes. I added an Ambiguity mark on the date, I'm thinking about deleting it since the HLN series, Unmasking a Killer makes multiple references to 50 attacks and to the July 5, 1979 attack as the 50th one in the first episode (as opposed to 51th as current stated in this wikipedia article). I could check McNamara's book for confirmation on that, but I'm going to wait if anyone comes here defending that the Febrary 2nd 1978 murders should continue on that table. Snitor (talk) 19:43, 18 February 2019 (UTC)

A week has gone by and no one commented here. I am going ahead and delet it as I still feel it is not accurate to put a suspected murder in the same table as sexual assaults all under the generic "attacks" banner. If people disagree in the future it can always be reversed. Snitor (talk) 16:00, 25 February 2019 (UTC)