Talk:David Hogg

Semi-protected edit request on 23 February 2018

Remove the word "falsely" where the article says that conspiracy theories "falsely claim..."

It is not a necessary word to have. The fact that the theories exist proves that there are reasonable people with good reasons to believe that the the theories are not false. Leave it up to the reader to decide if they are false or not. Ztoddw (talk) 07:39, 23 February 2018 (UTC)

 Not done: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. The section you're referring to is well-sourced, so there should be a good rationale to remove it. ~ Amory (u • t • c) 11:18, 23 February 2018 (UTC)

It doesn't "prove" anything. There are false claims that the lunar landing was a fake despite the overwhelming evidence; the general consensus is obviously that these claims are false. Same applies here. It would be nice if David Hogg could post a pic of his driving licence to dispel all myths. User:Pcauchy (talk) 10:35, 17 Bebruary 2018 (UTC)

I ultimately made this edit (before reading this talk page entry, admittedly), and, after reversion, made a talk page post on the page of the user who reverted it. Please see my talk page post for additional information on my standing. --HunterM267 ❯ talk 18:29, 27 February 2018 (UTC)

WP:BLP

Just a reminder to all editors, the Biographies of living persons policy should be excruciatingly studied before adding material on this person or any other survivors, some of whom are already reporting death threats ([1],[2]). Per WP:BLPPRIMARY and WP:BLPPRIVACY, primary sources should not be used, especially ones that include personal details. We should avoid victimization by only including the facts most pertinent and widely reported, or even omitting some reported details as appropriate. The dignity and safety of human beings should always be placed above the need to write a meticulously detailed article. --Animalparty! (talk)

Thank you for the reminder! CookieMonster755✉ 03:50, 26 February 2018 (UTC)

Image

This image was added to the page, with a quote by Hogg from his Twitter and map of Florida. I don't think it is relevant and seems like a personally created picture for personal purposes more than one that serves an encyclopedic purpose. I don't think it should be added, it takes up unnecessary space. The quote can be put in word form or with a quote template, but a picture is unnecessary and not commonly practiced. CookieMonster755✉ 03:48, 26 February 2018 (UTC)

Never mind. This has been removed. I just find it odd that a picture quote would be placed on the page when a text quote can be used instead. CookieMonster755✉ 04:04, 26 February 2018 (UTC)

Well I agree, and Tomwsulcer, sorry, but yeah. Drmies (talk) 04:05, 26 February 2018 (UTC)

Yeah, it doesn't provide any more context than a simple quote, is tacky and arbitrarily decorative, and gives undue visual emphasis. This article should not serve to amplify Hogg's own voice, per WP:ADVOCACY. --Animalparty! (talk) 05:27, 26 February 2018 (UTC)

Obama and political views

We going to mention the Seal of the President of the United States photograph from 23 July 2014?

d_m_h_photography M&Ms from Air Force 1! Sighed by the commander in chief #Obama

Shows Barack Obama signature. Not sure what M&M stands for. ScratchMarshall (talk) 05:23, 26 February 2018 (UTC)

Keep the David Hogg (activist) article

Keep the Hogg (activist) article. Controversy surrounds many, if not most, things in life. His activism at his age is quite notable, and worthy of a Wikipedia article. --Freudsig (talk) 16:53, 26 February 2018 (UTC)

Please participate in the AfD, not on the talk page, for this matter. CookieMonster755✉ 17:27, 26 February 2018 (UTC)

The fact that he is currently in the news does is not enough to warrant a Wikipedia article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 147.85.186.6 (talk) 17:58, 26 February 2018 (UTC)

Reversion of removal of "falsely" on David Hogg (activist)

Hi there - you reverted my edit on the David Hogg (activist) article for the removal of the word "falsely". As I referenced in my initial edit summary, I believe this is a weasel word, and also violates MOS:ACCUSED, since I would argue that, like most conspiracy theories, a conclusive yes/no answer is very difficult to obtain - hence why Wikipedia typically focuses on presenting the facts, as it does in that article. For example, see this section of the lunar landing article. While the section clearly presents the conspiracy as disputed with "empirical evidence", it does not include words that skew the neutrality of the article one way or the other. --HunterM267 ❯ talk 18:27, 27 February 2018 (UTC)

"Falsely" and "accused/alleged/purported" do not have the same meaning. The theory that Hogg is a crisis actor has been thoroughly debunked as indisputably false. Someone was even fired for it. Some conspiracy theories are plausible; this one is not. Do you disagree with any of this?- MrX 🖋 18:38, 27 February 2018 (UTC)

If a conclusion can be reached that the conspiracy theory that makes up ~30% of the entire page is entirely false and plausible, I question its inclusion in the page in the first place. My opinion is that if a conspiracy theory/controversy is covered at all, it should be covered in a neutral way. --HunterM267 ❯ talk 18:41, 27 February 2018 (UTC)

One issue at time. Do you disagree that sources ayy that this conspiracy theory was debunked? Let's continue this discussion on the article talk page so that other editors can weigh in. I will copy it there now.- MrX 🖋 18:46, 27 February 2018 (UTC)

I personally feel that given the nature of a Conspiracy theory - it is very difficult to fully "debunk" such a claim. I feel that this theory is no different, and while the individual themselves has denied it, as well as other figures including social media sources used to share such theories, as with most all conspiracy theories, it is very difficult or impossible to fully prove otherwise. Do I personally think there is substantial evidence supporting such a theory? Not necessarily. Nor do I wish to make any changes to push personal political agendas. That said, however, I think that including the word "falsely" in front of the Wikipedia discussion of the claim, however false it may seem, slightly changes the tone of the section away from a fully neutral representation of the controversy. --HunterM267 ❯ talk 18:59, 27 February 2018 (UTC)

We don't build article content based on editor's personal feelings. We use sources. Here is what the cited source says:

"Calls by student David Hogg for stricter gun laws in the days after last week's massacre have made him the subject of smear campaigns and demonstrably false conspiracy theories."
— CNN

The claims against Hogg are 100% fabricated.- MrX 🖋 19:06, 27 February 2018 (UTC)

As I stated in my previous post, I'm not contesting the validity of the controversy, nor attempting to use the section to inject personal opinions, but rather the way such a controversy was presented in the article. In fact, I'd go so far as to agree with you that the claims against Hogg are indeed 100% fabricated. However, that does not change my opinion that the use of the word "falsely" in a Wikipedia article's description of a controversy modifies the section's neutrality. --HunterM267 ❯ talk 19:22, 27 February 2018 (UTC)

There is ample precedent on WP that "falsely" is required for BLP compliance where individuals are subjects of conspiracy theories. People associated witht GamerGate and PizzaGate have been subjects of false conspiracy promotion, and consensus has consistently been on the side of explicitly calling out conspiracy theories and rumors associated with these individuals as false. Acroterion (talk) 19:53, 27 February 2018 (UTC)

Fair enough - thank you both for your time in talking to me! Apologies for any time wasted! --HunterM267 ❯ talk 20:04, 27 February 2018 (UTC)

No problem, I agree that it grates when seen in text, but the times we live in seem to demand that we make an emphatic statement that Britannica might not need ... if Britannica had articles on GamerGate, PizzaGate and Mr. Hogg. Acroterion (talk) 20:43, 27 February 2018 (UTC)

Business Insider

Would this be considered a reliable source?

• Smith, Allan (21 Feb 2018). "The conspiracy theory around one of the Florida school-shooting survivors is getting even more insane". Business Insider. A Twitter user identified as "Laguna Beach Antifa" on Tuesday posted what they said was a photo of Hogg and his classmates in a yearbook, claiming it was from Redondo Shores High School in California and that Hogg graduated in 2015. The post has been retweeted more than 4,000 times and replicated on other social-media sites like Facebook. "David Hogg didn't attend #Parkland high school," the Twitter user wrote.
  "I went to school with him at Redondo Shores High School in California and he graduated in 2015. Here he is in our yearbook from 2015. He always wanted to work for CNN and be an actor." —Laguna Beach Antifa (@LagBeachAntifa9) February 21, 2018
  The claim was quickly debunked. People on Twitter pointed to the student wearing a shirt with "Eagles" on it two photos above Hogg. Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School's mascot is an eagle.

I would like to know if this source alone would qualify as establishing notability regarding the Redondo_Beach_Unified_School_District#High_schools claim or if we should look for additional reliable sources in addition to Insider reporting on this before deciding if it is a notable enough thing to list in section 4.

This is not the only site which has reported on it, but it may be the most reputable one.

Given that the purpose of this article is to report on the successful debunking of the allegations, I do not consider it to be a BLP violation to report on a theory which has successfully been debunked. ScratchMarshall (talk) 21:18, 1 March 2018 (UTC)

What edit are you proposing and why? - MrX 🖋 21:34, 1 March 2018 (UTC)

The only mistake I'm aware of that Smith may have made was "on Tuesday posted" because the date listed in the cited Tweet is February 21st, the same day the article was published, which was a Wednesday. I assume the explanation for this was that it was probably posted late at night (like 12am-2am, dunno, since it's deleted) and that Smith thought of it was a Tuesday post despite it technically being Wednesday.

Presently the 2nd paragraph of David_Hogg_(activist)#Attacks_and_conspiracy_theories focuses on the Redondo Beach interview, then the 3rd moves onto discussing Facebook policies. I would propose we add something in between these regarding the "Redondo Shores" allegation which Smith reported on above. I'm open to ideas on how to phrase it but if you're looking for a first draft, I'll have a go:

"On February 2120, a Twitter user claimed that Hogg did not attend the Parkland, Florida highschool, insisting that he had graduated in 2015 from Redondo Shores High School in Redondo Beach, California. As fake evidence, the user misrepresented a page from a recent Stoneman Douglas yearbook as being from the Redondo Shores yearbook. This caused some far-right conspiracy theorists to target Hogg. The lie was debunked within a day by other Twitter users noticing an adjacent student wearing a shirt with the Stoneman Douglas Eagle on it."

Possibly a bit too wordy though, I could use some help with brevity if that seems to go on for too long. Any proposed rephrase?

One issue I'm having trouble sorting out is the dates... although the original tweet is deleted, Smith's article links to https://twitter.com/danielwillims/status/966188600193843200/photo/1 from February 20 where the user retweeting is debunking the claim saying "he moved from California our freshman year and hasn't transferred since". The shirt with 'Eagles' on it appears to be 2 places above Hogg, it is a white sweatshirt I think. So I guess I need to flip my criticism of smith, the "on Tuesday" appears to be correct. The mistake appears to be "February 21", the false claim tweet should be dated February 20. ScratchMarshall (talk) 17:07, 2 March 2018 (UTC)

This material should not be covered in the article at all, per WP:DUEWEIGHT and WP:NOTSCANDAL. This is a biography, not a treatise on idiotic conspiracy theories. Very few reliable sources have taken note of it, probably because it so ludicrous. Twitter is, of course, not a reliable source. Don't link to websites that are not reliable sources, especially if the they contain information that disparages a living person. - MrX 🖋 20:11, 2 March 2018 (UTC)