Talk:2014 Crimean status referendum

"Potentially Declare Independence"

It has been at least three times now that editors reverted the "potential declaration of independence" verbiage. This referendum is clearly between two choices (as the options themselves state) to stay with Ukraine or to join Russia. Anything beyond the simple ballot embedded within the article is speculation. For that matter, there is no mentioning of independence neither on the ballot or on the 1992 Constitution page. We only include it here as "potential" because CNN, Fox News and Kyiv Post say it might happen. Please keep this article NPOV! --Truther2012 (talk) 20:27, 12 March 2014 (UTC)

Exactly! It's not even potential question! They will not ask people about it, as intro & infobox claims. It is was potential outcome with declaration of independence. So actual NPOV version would be something like that: "The referendum will ask the people of these regions whether they want to join Russia as a federal subject, or if they want to restore the 1992 Crimean constitution and restore Crimea's status as a part of Ukraine. Some media also speculated that the referendum has not "no" option^[1][2]...[n] and the second option means declaration of independence with joining Russia later^{[n+1][n+2]...[n+m]}". Furthermore, Crimea is already an independent state. — 128.73.28.173 (talk) 21:16, 12 March 2014 (UTC)

Crimea is not already an independent state - as your page states, "they express their intention to self-declare themselves independent after a referendum to be held on 16 March" - This is proof positive that Option B on the referendum is to declare independence. --Львівське (говорити) 21:26, 12 March 2014 (UTC)

Yes, sorry, misread that. And no, only Option A on the referendum is to declare independence. — 128.73.28.173 (talk) 21:37, 12 March 2014 (UTC)

well, one is, one is for russia, that's my point. There's a slew of sources now, to say it's only a 'potential' outcome is just original research now --Львівське (говорити) 22:11, 12 March 2014 (UTC)

And all the sources essentially based on Volodymyr Yavorkiy's opinion or putting out of context words by Vladimir Konstantinov. Really, I can find any number of articles that claim that relativity theory is false. But if I wrote it as an absolute truth in WP, I will be banned. I am not implying that the "yes and yes" theory shouldn't be mentioned here. I am not even imply that DoI would not occur if option B wins. Just say that it is opinion of some media, not printed-on-bulletin reality. — 128.73.28.173 (talk) 22:39, 12 March 2014 (UTC)

Okay, I will restore my password. — 128.73.28.173 (talk) 22:45, 12 March 2014 (UTC) — Done. — Alex Krainov (talk) 22:47, 12 March 2014 (UTC)

Hold on, how is posting the actual ballot considered original research? Copy and paste it into any translator and point to the spot where it says "independence"? The "slew of sources" express opinions what the outcome may be, which is fine and which should be reflected in the article, but only as what they are - opinions!--Truther2012 (talk) 22:42, 12 March 2014 (UTC)

This is a long post-Soviet (and late-Soviet) tradition to make referendum questions intentionally obscure. This allows the authorities a freedom of interpretation of referendum results even if the results of the poll do not support their favorite options. The second option for the Crimean referendum is a good example of a such an approach. I think we should give a literal translation of the poll question and then provide attributed opinions what it might mean Alex Bakharev (talk) 00:46, 13 March 2014 (UTC)

Unfortunately, it's not just Soviet or post-Soviet tradition, have you seen Quebec referendum questions?...Truther2012 (talk) 13:26, 13 March 2014 (UTC)

At least that was a yes or no question. Also, because of the legality of secessionism, they couldn't state to unilaterally secede, but "declare sovereignty after XYZ" --Львівське (говорити) 14:46, 14 March 2014 (UTC)

• Despite having several refs saying its to declare independence, it seems users are ignoring the refs and inserting their own WP:OR interpretation of the referendum (that it wants to stay in Ukraine). Please refrain from disruptive edits that contradict the actual sourcing. --Львівське (говорити) 15:45, 14 March 2014 (UTC)

• Look here and then you will see broken link Б Ю Л Л Е Т Е Н Ь для голосования на общекрымском референдуме 16 марта 2014 года (which leads to old site www.rada.crimea.ua. Visit http://www.vsarc.ru/textdoc/ru/6/act/1702pr.pdf (domain changed) and you will see official bulletin - it still has "Ukrainian" option. Secondary sources sometimes misinterpret official acts, we've already had one such precedent, when sources reported "questions" instead of options. Seryo93 (talk) 16:14, 14 March 2014 (UTC)
• "inserting their own WP:OR interpretation of the referendum (that it wants to stay in Ukraine)" - it's not a interpretation of WHOLE referendum, it's just one of two options. Seryo93 (talk) 16:17, 14 March 2014 (UTC)
• I've just fixed the infobox to avoid misinterpretation. Seryo93 (talk) 16:22, 14 March 2014 (UTC)

• This is the definition of Original Research. It's not your place to say secondary sources have it wrong and your personal interpretation of the situation is correct. --Львівське (говорити) 17:29, 14 March 2014 (UTC)

• No. For laws and regulations, we usually quote or translate the primary source, e.g. the document itself. 174.19.174.16 (talk) 18:01, 14 March 2014 (UTC)

@Lvivske: The official ballot says, and I quote (source [1]):

Вы за восстановление действия Конституции Республики Крым 1992 года и за статус Крыма как части Украины?

which roughly translates into English as:

Do you support the restoration of the Constitution of the Republic of Crimea in 1992 and for the status of the Crimea as part of Ukraine ?

Option 2 says clearly and unequivocally that choosing that option is in favor of Crimea remaining as a part of Ukraine. Why is this being disputed?

Please provide an official document that says that Crimea will "potentially declare their independence" if Option 2 has a majority. Not the opinion of a journalist, not statements given by a politician, but an official document.

—Ahnoneemoos (talk) 18:38, 14 March 2014 (UTC)

• I guess we could seek consensus on this... Should we use literal translation of a legal document or some biased third party interpretation (and, I'm sorry, but Kiyv Post would be biased on this one). But then again, do we really have to? --Truther2012 (talk) 22:22, 14 March 2014 (UTC)
  • I think I now understand where all this confusion is coming from and it's from the fact that the ballot does not state which version of the constitution does it refer to when it says "1992 constitution". Constitutions are amended from time to time. That's why when you mention a constitution in a document you just don't mention the year, you mention the whole date. For example, the Puerto Rican constitution was amended a couple of times, but people refer to the original one as "the July 25, 1952 constitution" and any others as "the so-and-so month-and-date-year, version of the constitution". Unfortunately, the Crimean parliament didn't do this and we now have all this mess because of that little detail that escaped them. My guess is they are under a lot of pressure and their legislative advisors might not even be allowed inside the building. This is why you never make big decisions like this in haste. Oh well, nothing we can do about it except state facts. —Ahnoneemoos (talk) 23:40, 14 March 2014 (UTC)

 On hold until : can someone find us a version of the 1992 constitution? If we have that we can check what it says and find out if that versions says Crimea is "an independent state" and whether it is "as a part of Ukraine" or not. —Ahnoneemoos (talk) 00:59, 15 March 2014 (UTC)

• This is ridiculous, dismissing major media outlets as "biased sources" and relying on our own translations? You say that that is your translation, my own translation is that its restoring the 1992 constitution and Crimea's status vis a vis Ukraine. See, we have different interpretations of the text. So what do we do? We use secondary sources. Right now the entire introduction to this article is a joke, it's textbook original research, and it reads like a C-student's sloppy essay. I hate to describe a wikipedia article as 'amateur' but this right here is the cake. --Львівське (говорити) 04:05, 15 March 2014 (UTC)

• The New York Times differs from your translation and states that Option 2 is translated as: "Are you in favor of restoring the 1992 Constitution and the status of Crimea as a part of Ukraine?" (source: [2]). Can you please provide a reliable source that translates Option 2 in a different manner? —Ahnoneemoos (talk) 04:45, 15 March 2014 (UTC)

•  Fixed: I just used the verbatim text by The New York Times which stated that, "A return to the 1992 Constitution [...] would effectively provide for Crimea’s independence, while remaining part of Ukraine." Do you have a copy of the 1992 constitution that we can check? —Ahnoneemoos (talk) 05:15, 15 March 2014 (UTC)
• 1992 Constitution:

a) May 92', May 94', Sep. 94, Oct. 94, March 95: "Республика Крым входит в государство Украина и определяет с ней свои отношения на основе договора и соглашений." (art. 9). Roughly translates as "Republic of Crimea is a part of Ukraine and establishes relations with it on a basis of treaty (договора) and contracts (соглашений)".

b) Sep 92': "Республика Крым входит в состав Украины и определяет с ней свои отношения на основе взаимосогласованных законодательных актов и соглашений." (section 1 of art. 9). Roughly translates as "Republic of Crimea is a part of Ukraine and establishes relations with it on a basis of mutually agreed (взаимосогласованных) legislative acts and contracts (соглашений)"

Are any of them explicitly and unequivocally speak of "independence" or "possibility for independence"? Treaties with central government aren't nonsense for non-independent entities (at least we had that treaty concluded in the early 1990s). Seryo93 (talk) 11:49, 15 March 2014 (UTC)

 Discussion ongoing...
I think I found out why these sources are reporting that Choice #2 would effectively make Crimea independent. Here's why:

1. Article 1 of the 1992 constitution establishes that the Republic of Crimea is (i) a state and (ii) exercises sovereign rights and all full authority in its territory.
2. Article 2, Section 1 establishes that the, "Bearer of sovereignty and the only source of state power is the people[.]"
3. Article 2, Section 3 establishes that, "Any unconstitutional usurpation is an affront to democracy and the sovereignty of the people."
4. Article 10 establishes that, "Crimea alone may build relations [with other states] on the basis of equality, respect to sovereignty, territorial integrity, and non-interference in internal affairs[.]"
5. Article 62 establishes that the, "Protection of state sovereignty, unity and territorial integrity [..] is the responsibility of each of its citizens."

So, yeah, it seems the 1992 constitution is some sort of construct where Crimea is both a sovereign state but part of Crimea at the same time. It never mentions independence but it does mention sovereignty, territorial integrity, and respect to internal affairs several times.

What's everyone's opinion? How should we proceed? It seems to me that simply stating what the reliable sources say by using WP:INTEXT is the fairest option we have.

—Ahnoneemoos (talk) 13:12, 15 March 2014 (UTC)

• Yes, it's same crazy construction (sovereignty of non-sovereign entity), that was proposed in Russia during 1990-1993 constitutional process (see, for example, second paragraph of article five of the 12 Jul 93' draft) - a part of overall "march of sovereignties", that has begun in 19901988 and ruined USSR some years later. In my opinion, WP:INTEXT seems fine too. Seryo93 (talk) 13:22, 15 March 2014 (UTC)
• Where does it say in that constitution that it would be part of Ukraine? By those quotes, it declared sovereignty over its own internal affairs, and the ability to conduct foreign affairs with other states. That seems to be absolute independence? Or is it independence but in union with Ukraine like Poland is a sovereign state in the EU (economically)? --Львівське (говорити) 16:51, 15 March 2014 (UTC)
  • Article 9 of the 1992 constitution states explicitly that:

Республика Крым входит в государство Украина и определяет с ней свои отношения на основе договора и соглашений.

which roughly translates into English as

The Republic of Crimea is part of Ukraine and the state determines their relationship on the basis of contracts and agreements.

It seems highly contradictory because in some articles they establish complete sovereignty over both their internal and external affairs, but then they say, "we are also part of Ukraine". If you ask me, this was done in haste in 1992 while Crimea and Ukraine were going through a difficult political moment between themselves (Crimea declared its independence but Ukraine didn't like the idea, so Crimea then included that sentence that established they are part of Ukraine). It was something done 22 years ago. Details like this would be corrected immediately in today's modern world. But this is what happens when you make haste in an unstable region.

—Ahnoneemoos (talk) 18:02, 15 March 2014 (UTC)

Considering the parliament has said they will declare independence after the referendum regardless, I think it goes without saying which interpretation of the Constitution they hold.--Львівське (говорити) 19:14, 15 March 2014 (UTC)

Not "regardless", only if first result ("reunification" option) passes. Interpretation of the 1992 Constitution as giving de-facto independence may go INTEXT (with proper attribution, of course), but not in infobox. Seryo93 (talk) 06:11, 16 March 2014 (UTC)

Constitution declaring sovereignty is actually quite a weak indicator of independence. Quebec in Canada is sovereign, so as every native tribe (First Nation) in Canada, so as every other republic in Russia.

I think the article is missing a clear distinction between actual questions and opinions of what they may mean. Perhaps a separate section on the interpretation may do the trick? What do you think? --Truther2012 (talk) 20:02, 16 March 2014 (UTC)

I agree. Much of the introduction can be moved to a subsection dealing with analysis and interpretation of the referendum options. Clearly it's an issue that is complicated and confusing so it deserves its own section where the details can be fleshed out. As there is no consensus regarding the interpretation of option 2, I think it would be prudent to reduce what is said in the intro to a statement that the interpretation is/was contentious. Stephen J Sharpe (talk) 12:51, 17 March 2014 (UTC)

On second thought, I think the existing section on 'choices' is the appropriate place to delve into this. No need for another section. Stephen J Sharpe (talk) 21:42, 17 March 2014 (UTC)

I meant Interpretations subsection of the Options section...--Truther2012 (talk) 21:55, 17 March 2014 (UTC)

I think the section in its current form adequately covers the issue. Stephen J Sharpe (talk) 00:18, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

The issue was re-added to the introduction recently. Firstly, the claim "Many commentators argued that both choices would result in de facto independence." requires more than one citation but I doubt that will be hard to find. My main concern is that it is undue weight to include even well-sourced speculation in the lead. Perhaps if the line was "many legal scholars argued . . ." with supporting citations then it would warrant inclusion but the opinion of media commentators has no place in the lead. Stephen J Sharpe (talk) 03:42, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

Well I found enough citations but my concern of undue weight remains. Stephen J Sharpe (talk) 04:30, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

Original research

Why the article contains an original research? Are we now ignoring the principles of Wikipedia because of the Crimea situation? Where were total numbers reported? Why is that number posted? Aleksandr Grigoryev (talk) 14:00, 17 March 2014 (UTC)

• Some readers do not understand the explanatory note above the Results table, which reads: "Values in italics are calculated from the remaining sourced values." It means that values in italic are not in the source given, but all other values are. The missing values are calculated simply by summing or dividing the corresponding values from the table. Please help me to improve the note. — Petr Matas 14:03, 17 March 2014 (UTC)
• Maybe that is really to much of original research, but let me explain myself. The section originally contained some incorrect data and also the over-precisely calculated number of registered voters. I tried to correct it, put all available information into the table and fill in the gaps while making it trivial to check it. Maybe some rows and collumns consisting mainly of calculated values should be removed. — Petr Matas 14:26, 17 March 2014 (UTC)

 Fixed. We now have a reliable source through The Washington Post. From that data we can extrapolate the number of registered voters that did not participate and calculate everything else correctly. This does not constitute original research and is quite common on Wikipedia. I updated the table and it now reflects the correct data. —Ahnoneemoos (talk) 14:56, 17 March 2014 (UTC)

Thanks Cmoibenlepro (talk) 15:25, 17 March 2014 (UTC)

Where was the information on the total number of voters taken? Is that being pre-estimated out of the percentage?? I understand to calculate a percent which is simply a ratio, but I do not understand how you get total number of voters by calculation and no provided sources. The infobox mentions Crimean Election Commission. What is that? When was such institution established? The whole article is based on the phoney and self-published information as a blog. Aleksandr Grigoryev (talk) 15:35, 17 March 2014 (UTC)

From The Washington Post. It is even in a reference on the article:

Morello; Constable; Faiola (2014) "[Mikhail Malyshev, the Crimean election Spokesman,] who spoke briefly Monday morning on Crimean televsion, said a total of 1,274,096 people voted, for an 83.1 percent turnout. Of those who cast a ballot, [sic] 1,233,002 voted to shift to Russia, 31,997 voted to stay with Ukraine, and 9,097 were in invalid, Malyshev said."

See also WP:CALC, a policy.

—Ahnoneemoos (talk) 15:39, 17 March 2014 (UTC)

The most problematic value is the total number of registered voters, which is calculated as Total registered voters Total votes cast / Turnout = 1,274,096 / 0.831 = 1,533,208. However, this value MUST be rounded to at most four valid digits to reflect the turnout precision, i.e. 1,533,000. Furthermore, this value is disputed, as a different source says that 1,724,563 votes were cast. As the entire "Percentage of registered voters" column is based on the total number of registered voters, it has the same problem too. — Petr Matas 16:06, 17 March 2014 (UTC). Update: — Petr Matas 18:59, 17 March 2014 (UTC)

1,533,208 × 0.831 = 1,274,096. You don't need to round up three digits. The 1,724,563 figure comes from when you count Crimea+Sevastopol. So, in Sevastopol alone there were 450,467 voters. 1,274,096 voters in Crimea + 450,467 voters in Sevastopol = 1,724,563 voters that showed for the whole referendum in both locations. HTH, —Ahnoneemoos (talk) 17:17, 17 March 2014 (UTC)

Please see False precision. A calculated value is never more accurate than the inputs it was calculated from. — Petr Matas 17:47, 17 March 2014 (UTC)

The input in this case came from the Crimean Electoral Commissioner who gave a precise value, not an estimate. See the reference given above. This is basic arithmetic, covered by WP:CALC. —Ahnoneemoos (talk) 18:12, 17 March 2014 (UTC)

The excerpt above says that 1,274,096 people voted (this is a precise value) and that the turnout was 83.1%, which has an implied precision of three significant digits. The result is calculated from these two values. — Petr Matas 18:59, 17 March 2014 (UTC)

Believe me, I understand your concern, but that would be original research. You are assuming that the Crimean Electoral Commissioner gave a rounded/imprecise value regarding percentage. Your concern is reasonable but not backed up by sources. The only sources we have state that he simply said, "83.1%". So, we must assume it's just that, 83.1%—not 83.149999999%, or 83.05%, or any other value in between. See my point now? Unless you have a source that provides a different percentage your argument is speculative so we can responsibly use WP:CALC in our favor. —Ahnoneemoos (talk) 19:34, 17 March 2014 (UTC)

Yes, I understand you now. However, a fractional number with one decimal place may be either precise or rounded. Without further information, we cannot rely on the number being precise. It would not be an error to say "there were approx. 1,533,000 total registered voters" if there were 1,533,208. But it would be bad to say "there were 1,533,208 voters" if there were for example 1,533,196. Furthermore, here it is clear from context, that the cited value is actually "turnout after rounding to one decimal digit". All such percentages are always rounded to some number of digits. — Petr Matas 20:30, 17 March 2014 (UTC)

• In other words, given that the official's statement is true,

• statement "turnout rounded to one decimal place was 83.1%" is certainly true.
• statement "turnout was precisely 83.1%" may be true, but very likely it is not.

— Petr Matas 20:48, 17 March 2014 (UTC)

• Was a consensus reached? Can we remove the OR tag now? --Truther2012 (talk) 21:14, 17 March 2014 (UTC)
  • Let's leave the tag for a few days to give it a chance for more people to chime in. —Ahnoneemoos (talk) 21:17, 17 March 2014 (UTC)

Sevastopol registered voters count

The total registered voters count for Sevastopol is stated directly in the source, but it has the same issue as discussed above: It seems that it has been calculated by the following formula: 274,101 / 0.895 = 306,258. It is very unlikely that the actual count is exactly this value. — Petr Matas 22:33, 17 March 2014 (UTC)

• And the same for the "Join the Russian Federation" vote count: 274,101 * 0.956 = 262,041 — Petr Matas 22:46, 17 March 2014 (UTC)

• I don't speak Russian but I ran the source through Google translate and it seems they do provide the number of registered voters and number of people that actually voted in this sentence:

Председатель Севастопольской городской комиссии по подготовке и проведению общекрымского референдума Валерий Медведев зачитал протокол, согласно которому в списки для голосования были внесены 306 258 человек, 274 101 человек приняли участие в голосовании.

Can someone translate that for us? Let me summon @Seryo93 to see if he can help us translate that.

—Ahnoneemoos (talk) 23:02, 17 March 2014 (UTC)

Just to clarify: It seems that the source has been cited correctly, but I am challenging the source itself. — Petr Matas 23:53, 17 March 2014 (UTC)

This source is official site of the Sevastopol city council. I think, it's a reliable primary source (official site of the city's representative body). Rough translation:

Chairman of the Sevastopol city commission for organisation and holding of the all-Crimean referendum Valery Medvedev has announced protocol, according to which there are 306,258 registered voters and 274,101 voters participated in the voting

. Seryo93 (talk) 07:53, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

I see that my claim is an original research. It can be confirmed or falsified by the vote counts per voting district. Are they available anywhere? — Petr Matas 09:13, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

Results from Sevastopol

Results from the City of Sevastopol should be added. The official result has been published on website of the Sevastopol City Council: [3]. Aotearoa (talk) 20:22, 17 March 2014 (UTC)

Could you please provide the turnout number? Unfortunately, I can not read Russian. Thank you. Cmoibenlepro (talk) 03:22, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

Voting irregularities reported in Ukrainian media

I moved this line, "There were reports of people able to vote multiple times and not having to be from Crimea to vote, with turnout exceeding 100% in some places, 123% in Sevastopol." from the lead to the procedure section as the media sources given cite a Ukrainian blogger for their claims. This seems like undue weight to me for inclusion in the article but I want to discuss it or wait for better sources before removing it entirely. Stephen J Sharpe (talk) 12:35, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

• The alleged 123% "anomaly" was debunked by reddit fairly quickly. Here's their explanation:[4]

Somebody mixed 1 724 563 and 1 563 724.
If we subtract 1563724 - 1250426 we get 313298 voters in Sevastopol.
Dividing by the population of 385462(which is inaccurate), you get 81.3%. The stated ratio is 82,71%.

—Ahnoneemoos (talk) 14:03, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

I can't find any more reliable sources either so I'll remove the bit about +100% turnout rate. Stephen J Sharpe (talk) 14:57, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

Incorporated the explanation into the Results section. — Petr Matas 17:40, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

The use of Reddit as a source is disputed. I believe that it is permissible here, because the claim is also supported independently by other reliable sources, like ITAR-TASS. — Petr Matas 18:08, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

how is using a site's comment section valid? how does this pass the WP:RS sniff test? This is invalid by any metric of wikipedia and is beyond typical wp:or--Львівське (говорити) 21:50, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

I do not say that it is a reliable source. You cannot rely on it, but what rule prevents you from including it? WP:RS says nothing about a sniff test. — Petr Matas 22:08, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

There is at least one good reason to include even such unreliable source: To attribute the original idea to its author, even if it is a semi-anonymous comments section contributor. — Petr Matas 22:14, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

Just for others: We are disputing this source. — Petr Matas 22:20, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

I doubt we're going to get a more reliable source for how the error was made for the same reason we don't have reliable sources for the original error - it's not notable. Only obscure Ukrainian media and blogs commented on the ITAR-TASS error. I'd support just removing the whole thing. Stephen J Sharpe (talk) 22:40, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

The original ITAR-TASS article still contains the erroneous count. — Petr Matas 22:58, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

Can't we just ignore that and use the corrected ITAR-TASS article? Stephen J Sharpe (talk) 23:36, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

We can, but many people seem worried about the 123% turnout since the calculation was published by UNIAN, one of the largest Ukrainian news agencies. — Petr Matas 23:46, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

Ah, I didn't realize that. Well, do we really need a source to replace Reddit? I think the corrected ITAR-TASS article alone can serve as a citation to support the text as it currently stands. Stephen J Sharpe (talk) 00:16, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

We don't, but the question is: Does Reddit have to be removed? I think that its inclusion does no harm. — Petr Matas 00:42, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

I'm not opposed to its inclusion but it doesn't look good to have Reddit as a citation. Perhaps we could add the explanation for the error and and use the video of the press conference together with the original and corrected ITAR-TASS reports of the press conference as supporting sources. It would be OR/synthesis but I think this is one of the those situations where we should ignore all rules and use common sense. But I want to hear Львівське thoughts on the idea before making the edit. It seems this is only getting bigger with the Guardian quoting a 'senior US administration official' who repeats the claim. Stephen J Sharpe (talk) 01:21, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

Off-topic: I think that media would verify their sources better if there was a service reporting on all proven canards. — Petr Matas 02:06, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

I'm inclined to assume incompetence before conspiracy but this is pushing it. I think some journalists choose not to verify their sources. Stephen J Sharpe (talk) 02:32, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

The synthesis consists of the words "incorrectly" and "error" and can be easily removed: "ITAR-TASS initially reported this as 1,724,563 voters in total (which lead some people to report a 123% turnout in Sevastopol), but corrected it later." — Petr Matas 08:34, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

Makes sense to me. I'll make the edit. Stephen J Sharpe (talk) 17:56, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

Gallery

Regarding this revert, my understanding is that galleries like this are discouraged. Wouldn't these images be more useful if they were integrated into the article, with captions providing context? Also, with just two images in the "hover" gallery, they appear quite large, at least on my current screen and within my current browser. --Another Believer _(Talk) 15:57, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

I'm not opposed to integrating them into the article. The images could be added next to the 'procedure' section as concerns about the box's transparency and how envelopes weren't used are mentioned there. Stephen J Sharpe (talk) 16:36, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

Too many images?

After agreeing with Another Believer to integrate the gallery photos into the article I realized that there really isn't any room left. I recommend that the images in the background section be reduced in size, the video of Chubarov be removed because he's a somewhat marginal figure and its in Russian, and the image of Obama and Yatsenyuk be removed as its only loosely connected to the referendum. Stephen J Sharpe (talk) 21:29, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

Results for separate municipalities

Are the results for separate municipalities available? If so, could the referendum map be made so that different shades of color indicate different percentage ranges like in File:Egyptian constitutional referendum 2011.svg (perhaps using narrower ranges if necessary)? --188.252.130.227 (talk) 13:58, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

Requested move

Crimean referendum, 2014 → Crimean status referendum, 2014 – All Wester's objections have been dissolved. — Petr Matas 07:06, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

Image error

the "Linguistic map of Ukraine according to the 2001 census" says "Chernobyl diaster". Should say "Chernobyl disaster" Ultrabutter (talk) 14:08, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

Reason for not dispatching OSCE monitors

I disagree with Stephen J Sharpe's removal of the reason for not dispatching OSCE monitors. It IS supported by the source, which says:

Jak Evropská unie, tak Organizace pro bezpečnou spolupráci v Evropě (OBSE) přitom pozorovatele odmítly na Krym vyslat s odvoláním, že v minulých dnech nebyli na Krym vpuštěni vojenští pozorovatelé.

which translates to

Both the European Union and the Organisation for safe Cooperation in Europe (OSCE), however, refused to send observers to Crimea, noticing that in the past few days military observers have not been admitted to Crimea.

— Petr Matas 14:55, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

My mistake. I thought I read through that whole article but I guess I missed that. If aktualne.cz is reliable then I don't think you need to preface it with "Aktuálně.cz claimed". I'll look for better sources as well. Stephen J Sharpe (talk) 17:16, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

Never mind. :) It's one of the newspapers frequently appearing at Google News. Is it enough? — Petr Matas 17:23, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

Fine with me. After reading so many imperfectly translated foreign news media my eyes tend to glaze over material. Stephen J Sharpe (talk) 17:47, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

Bias Concerns

I'm not necessarily opposed to including something about the monitors' political affiliations given that most of them wouldn't be considered mainstream but I think it's problematic to imply that neo-nazis and communists are sympathetic towards Russia without some pretty strong sources to back that up. The information about political affiliation should be presented neutrally so readers can decide whether they think such people would be biased towards Russia. Given that there were 135 observers (according to RT), information about individual observers seems like undue weight but I'd support a more general statement about the observers. Stephen J Sharpe (talk) 17:42, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

You are right, but as of now, all observers refered to in the Monitors section are problematic in my opinion. I hoped that either many others with no problems will be added or some problems will be found for a vast majority of them. — Petr Matas 18:00, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

I believe the entire "bias concerns" section needs to be deleted as it is original research. Here's an example using the first name on the list; lets assume for the moment that it is an undisputed and properly cited fact that Charalampos Angourakis is a Representative from the Communist Party of Greece. Wikipedia can not say that is a "concern" unless there is a reliable source to be cited that says it is a concern. It doesn't matter if half of the observers are known to be personal friends of Vladimir Putin, we cannot say that is a "concern" unless a reliable source says it first. - Hoplon (talk) 19:55, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

Ok, let's not say that it is a concern, but the contents of the table are sourced, so I think that we should keep at least the table. — Petr Matas 20:24, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

Given the number of international observers, I don't think any individual observer's political affiliation or history is notable. Consider - what does observer Johan Bäckman's activist past say about the referendum? Stephen J Sharpe (talk) 00:18, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

Nothing. But a list of affiliations of all observers mentioned by this RT (pro-Kremlin) article will be interesting. — Petr Matas 00:35, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

The only way I can understand this being relevant to the article is if these affiliations affect the credibility of the international observers. We cannot make that argument ourselves, we need a source. Stephen J Sharpe (talk) 01:08, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

I agree. — Petr Matas 06:25, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

I think their affiliation matters considerably. If the validity of these monitors is based on their credibility, then it matters greatly if Russia collected a bunch of random malcontents, and blocked OSCE accredited observers, in order to have a group that was more pliable. It seems that objective observers were blocked from monitoring the elections, and a selected group was admitted. How much we value the viewpoint of the monitors goes to the essence of them being monitors at all, so yes the background of the monitors is what decides their relevance and credibility. Furthermore, we do not "need a source to say they a concern", thats neither here nor there. Does it meet notability criteria? yes, this is notable, relevant, an important part of the article. ITs up to wikipedia readers to decide whether its a concern or not to them. The article does not make up people's minds for them by telling them what is right, wrong, or credible, wikipedia gives the facts of the situation and readers make up their own minds. Ottawakismet (talk) 14:43, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

Before including facts so readers can "make up their own minds" those facts have be to be determined to be relevant. In this case relevancy depends on the idea or concern that any individual monitor's political beliefs or affiliations affects his ability to be a referendum monitor. But Wikipedia can't state that a neo-nazi or a communist or Vladimir Putin's best friend is unfit to be an observer unless there is a source to back that up. If the Crimean authorities only invited "malcontents" or Russophiles to be observers that would be relevant but we'd need a source for that and even then going into detail about individual monitors would be undue weight. Per WP:BRD, the usual practice is to edit, revert and discuss; leaving the article in the state it was before the edit until some sort of consensus is reached. Given that Petr Matas re-added the section after a revert and he has since agreed, I'm going to remove the affiliations section although please don't take this an attempt to close discussion on the matter. Stephen J Sharpe (talk) 17:57, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

↓ (moved from User:Petr Matas)

Citation requested - Crimean monitors affiliation

Sure, absolutely fair request. The source has been added to the referendum page. Canada banned him from entering the country for his hate views (hate speech is prohibited in Canada, though not in the United States as much) I found a second article from a high quality news source (macleans), which adds more information.

http://www.thenewamerican.com/world-news/north-america/item/10630-canada-ejects-serbian-american-scholar-stops-speech-at-university http://www.macleans.ca/education/university/guest-ubc-lecturer-denied-entry-to-canada/ http://ubyssey.ca/news/serbian-speaker-accused-of-hate-speech/ This is an exerpt from the first source:

IRGC is shocked that the University of British Columbia would allow Srdjan [sic] Trifkovic, who has repeatedly and openly denied the Srebrenica genocide to speak at this respectable academic institution. A historical revisionist like Trifkovic should not be allowed to lecture in an academic context. His version of events in the Balkans is inaccurate (as proven by his denial of the Srebrenica genocide) and the Serbian Students’ Association should not be allowed to pass him off as a reliable source.

Denial of genocide is widely considered to constitute a form of racist hate propaganda that is incompatible with Canadian values. Recently, the Parliament of Canada has recognized the Bosnian Genocide that took place in the enclave of Srebrenica in July 1995.

Thanks for sending me the note, always better for things to show their sources.Ottawakismet (talk) 14:37, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

↑ (moved from User:Petr Matas)

• Here is a source, for the concerns. Quote: No major international organizations are monitoring today’s vote, after “self-defense groups” prevented their entry. A number of self-proclaimed observers, mostly far-right European politicians from across Europe, are in Crimea, with one saying “What is sauce for Kosovo’s goose is certainly sauce for Crimea’s gander.” — Petr Matas 19:25, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

Communists are far right now? Far be it for me to question the guardian so I won't challenge that description but the source doesn't report on any concerns. Again, it can't be implied that far-right Europeans are unsuited to perform the duties of a referendum observer simply because of their political beliefs. The refusal to allow OSCE military observers is already covered in the article. OSCE referendum monitors were (informally) invited by Crimean PM Aksyonov but declined as the article says. A number of media reports I've read recently seem to conflate the OSCE's military and referendum monitors but that doesn't mean we have to. Stephen J Sharpe (talk) 19:56, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

Although I'd support the inclusion of "No major international organizations sent observers" but I'd prefer more sources and a citation needed tag to encourage other editors to find them. Stephen J Sharpe (talk) 20:00, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

Non-secret votes, semitransparent voting booths

(Copied from User talk:Stephen J Sharpe so that others can join discussion)

[..] I do not understand your reason for reverting my edit [5]. What I meant was that some votes were already visible before putting the ballot into the box, since some people did not fold their ballots so that their vote was readily visible to bystanders (as shown in several of the images of the Mashable source). This has little to do with the transparent boxes, but I think it's an important fact to add that secret voting was only optional, since it (unlike the boxes) contradicts democratic standards as I know them. (Also, the voting cabins were semi-transparent, apparently, further reducing secrecy.) --Roentgenium111 (talk) 18:46, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

If voting cabins were semi-transparent that should be added, no question. If some people did not fold their ballots that is their own choice. If envelopes had been available and some voters just chose not to use them it wouldn't be notable either. It sounded like the edit was belabouring the point. On the other hand, I wouldn't be opposed to an edit that noted how the ballot boxes were visible to bystanders during voting if that can be sourced. Stephen J Sharpe (talk) 19:07, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

Sorry if my edit wasn't clear. Semi-transparent cabins are shown in the Mashable images at two of the three polling stations shown (the third seems to have nontransparent ones). FWIW, I don't agree that "if some people did not fold their ballots that is their own choice". It can put significant societal pressure on any dissenters to "prove" they voted the "right" way; e.g. in the GDR people were "expected" not to use the voting cabins, thereby removing the secrecy of the vote. At least in Germany, it IS forbidden to show your vote to anyone; I would have thought this was common in democratic countries. (But maybe we should discuss this at the article talk page...) --Roentgenium111 (talk) 20:35, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

In Czech Republic (my country), you will not be allowed to vote if you don't use a cabin, and a ballot, which is not in the official pre-stamped envelope, is invalid. (It would be nice to move this entire discussion to the article's talk page.) — Petr Matas 20:58, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

I see what you guys are getting at. In Canada things are a bit more relaxed but thats probably because we have a less . . . interesting . . . political history. Even so, without a source that reports on concerns of 'societal pressure' as a result of the voting procedure/environment it is original research on our part to speculate about how Crimean voters might have felt. Stephen J Sharpe (talk) 21:32, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

I can understand that in an "unendangered" democracy this enforcement may seem unnecessary; so showing your marked ballot is allowed/tolerated in Canada?

I don't want to add the "pressure" part to the article without a source, only the fact that several people voted openly, for which we have a (photographic) source. People can draw their own conclusions from this fact, which may be as different as ours here... --Roentgenium111 (talk) 21:46, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

(End copy) Roentgenium111 (talk) 22:06, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

The actions of 5-10 Crimean voters - or however many we have photographic evidence of - does not really matter next to the total 1,524,563 voters. You might say it's indicative of a greater trend (and that's probably true) but I'm not comfortable with Wikipedia making that argument on its own. That is where we need a source. That said, I'm not strongly opposed and I won't revert if the edit is made. Stephen J Sharpe (talk) 22:54, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

I see your point; but we also use the images of a few transparent boxes as a reference for transparent boxes in general in this article... --Roentgenium111 (talk) 00:03, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

It seems reasonable that other transparent boxes were used in polling stations throughout Crimea although I'll add some sources that explicitly say so. Stephen J Sharpe (talk) 00:42, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

Reports on legitimacy and lawfulness

• I do not agree with 85.140.221.30 and 124.248.205.109's edit of reports on legitimacy and lawfulness, as it is not supported by the source. — Petr Matas 08:44, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

• I think that before you try to edit this article, you should know that the majority of the Crimeas population are Russians. I read smth about cabines for voting upper, it's false, because there was everything that should be on such events as referendum, moreover, each editor is already agree, that there no violencences or illegal actions during it. You could find smth illegal if enemy forces intruded the peninsula and made everyone recognize it as a part of Russian territory (like the US did with Mexico or Spanish colonies in the Pacific ocean), thats what we can call illegal actions and occupation. but in Crimea everything was legal, legitimate and necessary for Crimean people. Read and look reports from Crimea and opinion of the voters, and you will understand. You better study Your Own history before teach someone else how to call such main events for people (even a strange for you).

PS and also read the 2nd chapter of the UN regulations. You may learn smth new about politics and laws. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.248.205.109 (talk) 10:50, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

• I agree that the election was fair, but its legitimacy and legality is disputed. For example, the observer Stanislav Berkovec said that he cannot asses it legislatively. — Petr Matas 12:19, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

• The referendum observers are not legal scholars, their statements are relevant only insofar as they relate to voting conduct. Stephen J Sharpe (talk) 18:29, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

• In the section "Reports" where it says: "The referendum was observed by 135 international observers from 23 countries with no violations registered", a recent an edit by 85.140.218.205 added that the observers found it legitimate. Since this was taken from the same source, how come the edit was reverted? After all, all it will say is these particular observers found it legitimate. I don't think that should be a problem. -- Kndimov (talk) 21:09, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

I just checked, seems like there is a bit of a tug of war happening with this particular line between 85.140.218.205 and Stephen J Sharpe. -- Kndimov (talk) 21:12, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

85.140.218.205 has agreed to discuss the matter on the talk page so I think we can resolve this. Stephen J Sharpe (talk) 21:27, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

• I'm the of those, who won't hide the truth and belittle the importance of that event for the Crimean people (though I'm not from there, but I've been there recently). And in my editing I dont lie (and other editors agreed with it, as you can see in previous talk). Nothing personal, but Nato's countries mass media are often distorting information with their subjective points of view :) (If its matter, I read american, british, deutsch and russian newpapers and magazines)

And also, if you are so stubborn about it, show me according to which documents its illegal? I didnt see, but I know, that any people anyway have right for self-determination. And you cant argue that its illegal, cause this is false. As it was said before, read the UN rules. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.248.205.109 (talk) 21:15, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

I added a bit from an EODE statement reporting that referendum was conducted freely and fairly. I'm opposed to including any reference of legal legitimacy because the EODE is not an authority on international or Ukrainian law. Stephen J Sharpe (talk) 21:22, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

RA0808 reverted this edit describing it in the edit summary as 'subjective'. I don't argue it isn't 'subjective' but the edit clearly attributed the claim 'freely and fairly' to the EODE which is relevant because they were observing the referendum. Stephen J Sharpe (talk) 22:02, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

I apologize if it seems I was complicating things, but the way the statement was written did not seem to attribute the claim to EODE but stated it as if it were objective fact. As you stated yourself: EODE is not an authority on international or Ukrainian law (in fact they are a group led by a Belgian far-right activist), so any claims that they make should carry a caveat to that respect. I think that is better addressed further down in the article where there is space to articulate the precise leanings and biases of the various bodies and nations piping in on this referendum. RA0808 ^talk_contribs 22:06, 21 March 2014 (UTC)