Wikipedia talk:Requests for comment/Fæ

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The following discussion is an archived record of an user conduct request for comment. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.

Is this page properly certified?

The link to the previous RfC is a bit weird. Can't the editors sign their name to this one, if they think another RfC on the same (albeit renamed) user is needed? ASCIIn2Bme (talk)

This isn't "another RfC", this is the aborted RfC re-opened. It has already been certified. I would have preferred to simply re-list the original, but the change of name and the time span involved would have made that even more confusing, I think. I should have signed it, though, and I have done so now. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 00:40, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

I stand corrected. I've read the (interesting) AN discussion on the topic of on-hold RfCs. ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 00:47, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

Even if it is a re-opening, we're going to need some signatures in that space for the formal assignment of responsibility for the process. MBisanz ^talk 18:58, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

Who is "we" and why can't "we" follow the link to the original? Delicious carbuncle (talk) 19:24, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

The community and because things break over time as pages get shifted around which makes it annoying to try and go back and document stuff in the future. MBisanz ^talk 21:01, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

I'm sorry, I do not understand what the issue is. Do you want me to copy the original section over to the new section? If you have a suggestion about how I can do this in a less confusing way, I welcome it. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 21:14, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

Copying probably is fine; it makes things clearer to simpletons like me. But like I say below, people (specifically the person who is the subject of the RFC), will probably complain that since an original certifier was banned, you need a new second certifier as the banned user can't consent to re-opening it. MBisanz ^talk 21:21, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

Also, because clicking around now I see one of the original certifiers is now banned, which I don't care about because I don't quite know what is going on here, but sounds fishy to me because obviously the banned user isn't around to say he also agrees with its reopening. MBisanz ^talk 21:02, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

That previous RFC was almost two years ago. Do we even have clear evidence that this user is the same person as that user?   Will Beback  talk  21:20, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

MBisanz, I am reopening a dormant RFC/U. You may find it helpful to read this recent AN discussion on that specific topic. Reading over your comments here, it seems clear that you do not like it, but I am not sure what your objections are. I started the original RFC/U and I am re-opening it. I assume that anyone would be free to do so if they saw the need. The fact that the person who certified the original RFC/U is no longer editing here is not relevant. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 21:22, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

However, the point of RFC is to permit comment and dialogue with the user violating norms so that they can change their behavior. The reason two certifiers are required is, presumably, to ensure there is an actual violation of norms; not simply a personal gripe and show the accused user that multiple individuals see a problem and desire to help resolve it. Without Jack around to confirm there is still an issue with Fæ's behavior and to discuss that issue with Fæ, a key part of the dispute resolution process is lost. MBisanz ^talk 21:29, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

Your argument might have more weight if the original RFC/U had concluded. It did not. It was closed prematurely because User:Ash claimed to leave Wikipedia, but actually had already begun editing as User:Fæ. The original request for comment was certified. I have provided additional, current evidence that a problem remains, so that this cannot simply be sloughed off as "stale". I suggest you start a discussion on WP:AN or the WT:RFC/U if you have concerns about the process itself so that a wider range of opinions can be heard. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 21:43, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

Nah, not worth the effort; I just think it's a violation of process how you're doing it. And, I'm now involved anyway. MBisanz ^talk 21:45, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

It may be a violation of what you assume the spirit of the RFC/U process is, but I have been unable to establish what the actual process is for cases such as this. I had hoped for a wider discussion in the AN thread I started about a similar situation, but it didn't generate much interest. I'm sure this won't be the only such case like this, so if you have thoughts on how best to do this, please consider starting a discussion somewhere (either now or later). Delicious carbuncle (talk) 21:53, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

My thought in the past and now is that if a discussion has been delisted/closed/suspended and a user returns, whomever certified the first dispute creates a new RFC_2 and re-files, with re-certification and re-endorsement of viewpoints. It ensures finality to the process that once an RFC is delisted, it's gone unless a new one is created. MBisanz ^talk 21:59, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

I agree. This needs to be treated as a fresh RFC, with fresh certifications. The idea that ancient RFCs can be restarted at any time is unsupported by past practice.   Will Beback  talk  00:04, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

I've never interacted with Fae directly so I don't think I can certify, but I can vouch for the seriousness of the conditions on which Ash left the other year. ThemFromSpace 20:49, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

These certifications are insufficient. They need to be from two users who show that they attempted to resolve the same dispute.

DC lists a number of items for the first http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:WhatLinksHere/AG_Weinberger indicates no dispute, let alone any attempt to resolve it.

For the nude beach http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:WhatLinksHere/Voidokilia_beach indicates no dispute, or attempt to resolve it. Comments on the talk page were mad as a result of this RFC and seem broadly supportive.

The same applies to the image.

Unless someone can actually find an unresolved dispute, with two parties willing to certify, involving the party subject to the RFC the whole thing is moot.

Rich Farmbrough, 01:34, 30 January 2012 (UTC).

For this reason I have delisted the RFC. Rich Farmbrough, 01:49, 30 January 2012 (UTC).

Note my removal was reverted by User:Tarc. Tarc is a member of the satirical website Wikipedia Review. Rich Farmbrough, 21:51, 8 February 2012 (UTC).

Fae=Ash?

I can't find any definitive link connecting the two accounts. If the user has self-identified or if there's been a CU then that would be adequate. Whatever the evidence, it needs to be specified for this RFC to continue.   Will Beback  talk  22:57, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

I have not time to search for the link but as I remember it was declared by Fae after comments on wiki review and here. Youreallycan 23:02, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

Someone needs to track down that edit and post the link.   Will Beback  talk  23:20, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

You may wish to take a look at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive729#User:Fæ = User:Ash (and was previously User:Ashleyvh and User:Teahot). I suggest you contact ArbCom about any questions regarding Fæ's self-identifications on-wiki. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 23:26, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

I may be missing something, but I don't see any evidence on the linked thread that the two users are the same. user:Bali ultimate says, "Well, now I know who the previous account was. It was User:Ash who departed Wikipedia in April 2010 during an RFC [43]" But he never says how he learned this. If an ArbCom member would like to make a statement here or elsewhere that might clarify things. But either way there needs to be clear evidence that the two accounts are the same person for this RFC to proceed.   Will Beback  talk  23:48, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

You are missing something. Again, I suggest that you contact ArbCom about this matter. If they wish to make a statement or shut down this RFC/U, I'm sure they will do so. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 00:04, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

That's your responsibility as you're the one making the assertion. Evidence that the two accounts are the same person needs to be added before the deadline.   Will Beback  talk  00:07, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

Fae is Ash, denying that is ridiculous, he doesn't even deny it himself. Youreallycan 00:14, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

If that's the case then evidence should be easy to find.   Will Beback  talk  00:22, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

What deadline would that be, Will? Delicious carbuncle (talk) 00:21, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

The 48 hour deadline.   Will Beback  talk  00:22, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

Yes, there is no deadline to the reopening of a previously opened RFC user - but - - or however - this is all dramah without benefit and I don't support the reopening. User Fae has moved on in the spirit of fresh beginnings and is editing in a totally beneficial manner - so - lets forget this historic rfc user and go do something worthwhile, yes. Youreallycan 00:27, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

It's only a re-opened RFC if it's the same person. If they are different people then it's without any basis.   Will Beback  talk  00:32, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

The major problem with linking the accounts is that the user pages of User:Ash have been deleted (both here and on commons). The fact that Ash's previous account was AshleyVH and that Fae is Ashley Van Haften is significant. Denying the elephant in the room is disingenuous to the process (and people have been banned for much less evidence than what has been presented linking the two accounts. Ya ya, WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS, {{spa}}, etc. Throw all the rules, guidelines and policies you want at me but it still doesn't change the facts that there are serious concerns about a user who left under a cloud and came back and gained admin status. 65.122.75.14 (talk) 14:45, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

So Fae is Ash, Ash is AVH and AVH sat on the WP UK board of trustees. Did Fae get special treatment by Arbcom regarding his past accounts because of his position at WP? if this is the case then we have a pretty serious issue on our hands. There is an article about AVH on examiner.com that gives a detailed back story. I would really like to know why, from Arbcom's POV, they felt it was appropriate to allow an RFA while being secretive about past accounts. N^oformation ^Talk 18:28, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

Did Fae get special treatment by Arbcom regarding his past accounts because of his position at WP? [Sic] Arbcom has all sorts of powers and for the sake of argument I won't dispute that at the time of Fae's RFA they could have used the WMF time machine to work out that he would subsequently be elected to the board of Wikmedia UK (though I had understood that the time machine was strictly for use by the fundraising department to get advance news of horseracing results). But for your charge to meet the credibility threshold of this RFC you would also need to show why Arbcom would want to do a favour for the UK chapter and the GLAM parts of the movement. More importantly, please refer to the UK chapter as WMUK not WPUK, as the chapter covers the whole of Wikimedia in the United Kingdom not just WP. ϢereSpielChequers 13:35, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

• @ section - see #Connecting_User:Ash_to_User:F.C3.A6_by_popular_request Bulwersator (talk) 23:04, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

Harrassment by Delicious Carbuncle

This request is simply an extension of harrassment by some other vile characters on Wikipediareview. Fae has undergone some unadulterated harrasment by various users on WR, and a lot of it is of the homophobic variety. DC, IMO, is very close to going over this line of harrassment, if they haven't already.

Editors should know that DC posted Fae's home address and phone number on WR, on a thread which was discussing Fae in a manner which can only be construed by any reasonable person as harrassment, so their claim here that they are only interested in Fae's Wikipedia activities is absolute and clear BS. (Whilst the posts in question by DC on WR have conveniently been deleted, this does not mean that a webcitation copy wasn't conversely conveniently made before these posts were deleted by WR, so if DC is going to deny ever having done this, they might want to think very carefully before responding to this).

In relation to:

In a piece of sourcing remarkably similar to those in the original RFC/U, Fæ sourced the statement "The beach is considered friendly for naturists and gay tourists" in Voidokilia beach to a guide in the back of a gay tourist advertising magazine. The complete text of that section is "Situated after Pylos and a a[sic] gulf with a big lagoon of murky water and is suitable for nudists" (in both English and Greek)

His sourcing in this instance is pretty much OK, it is in a section of the magazine which is giving details of gay-friendly resorts, hotels, and beaches in Greece. There are obviously doubts as to whether this is legitimate or part of homophobic harrassment directed towards Fae. It is obvious it is, because they made a point of including a photo which Fae had taken at this beach in their statement; obviously hoping to play in homophobic feelings which some editors may hold. It is absolutely atrocious and disgusting behaviour to be engaging in.

As to anything on Commons, DC should not be importing disputes from Commons to enwp. If there are issues on Commons, Commons is the correct place to raise them; rather than using it as cannon fodder on enwp. Y u no be Russavia ^{ლ(ಠ益ಠლ)} 23:36, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

I don't know who's "in the right" on this ongoing debate - maybe all, maybe none, or a bit of both. But I don't see how a 2-year-old comment by a since-banned user has anything to do with a current RFC. I have raised this question at WP:ANI. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:46, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

Russavia, please strike your comments which suggest that this is "homophobic harassment" I regard to the posting of Fæ's home address on Wikipedia Review, I suggest that you post the link so that others may see it in context. Otherwise, please strike that portion also, as it is otherwise an unsourced accusatiion. Thanks. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 00:08, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

Suggesting that someone link to a website engaging in outing is really inappropriate.   Will Beback  talk  00:12, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

It is somewhat disingenuous for you to suggest that there is any outing going on. Fæ makes no secret of his identity. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 00:21, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

I don't know anything about him. If he says that he's Ash and if he posts his home address publicly then that's fine. If he does not post his home address then linking to it would count as outing, regardless of the Fae/Ash issue.   Will Beback  talk  00:27, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

Thank you Will. DC must be a few sausages short of a BBQ if he thinks I would link to off-wiki harrassment by himself and fellow WR users. The fact that he confirms that he did indeed do this is enough, and is enough to demonstrate what DC is doing here. It is below the pale of common decency to post someones home address and phone number on a public forum on a thread which is being use to engage in homophobic and harrassing commentary by numerous people. And to come back here to this project and claim that one is only interested in another editors Wikipedia activities is absolutely dishonest and outrageous. Y u no be Russavia ^{ლ(ಠ益ಠლ)} 00:26, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

Russavia, I would be only too happy to have a frank and open discussion of my actions here to set the record straight, but I am unable to do that with violating WP:OUTING. I have encouraged Fæ to follow some form of dispute resolution so that I may defend myself from these types of unsubstantiated slurs, but he has not done so, preferring instead to simply claim "harassment" in order to discredit anything I may have to say about his actions. I regret that many of the examples I have used involve gay topic areas, but those are the areas in which I have found them. I find your suggestions that I am homophobic, or that this is in any way motivated by homophobia, to be very insulting. Please strike your comments and refrain from future outbursts. Thank you. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 00:48, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

If you are unable or unwilling to conduct a standard SPI, and if you have evidence that the two editors are the same but don't want to post it openly, maybe you should go offline with your most trusted admin and clue him in as to what the story is. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 01:01, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

There is no need for me to do that. Contact ArbCom if you have concerns about the identity of the named users. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 01:08, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

The deadline is 21:52, 27 January 2012. Please make sure an ArbCom member or CU has posted their evidence before then.   Will Beback  talk  01:18, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

I have no way to ensure that they do that and it isn't for me to suggest it. If you have concerns about the connection between the two accounts, contact ArbCom. Setting arbitrary deadlines with the implied threat that you will close this RFC/U does not seem like a wise idea under the circumstances. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 03:35, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

If there is no clear evidence that Fae and Ash are the same person by the deadline then I will delete the RFC, since it is based on that premise. You can't just assert that two users are the same and then attack them on that basis. There has to be some proof. If you're unable to provide any you'd still be welcome to start an RFC on FAE alone, on the basis of his editing and without reference to Ash. However, based on many assertions here I'd assume that it would be possible to show that Fae and Ash are the same person. Have you contacted the ArbCom to ask them to make a declaration?   Will Beback  talk  06:16, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

I have not contacted ArbCom about this, although I know they were contacted when the RFC/U was filed. I thought I had already made it clear that I was not going to contact ArbCom and that if you had concerns about this, you should contact them. I do not feel that it is incumbent on me to offer proof here for what is already well-known to them. This is not a sockpuppetry investigation, it is a request for comment on a user. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 13:09, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

Hi Russavia, I trust you remember me from our days on EEML. I'm floating around this one in my usual manner, no opinion, not taking sides, just doing what I can to keep order. While I don't have the authority of a Arbcom clerk in this discussion, I hope I have enough residual respect from you that you might consider my request that you strike uncivil comments and stay focused on the issues. DC, I don't think I've dealt with you much in the past, but the same request applies (as of course it does to everyone). Regards, Manning (talk) 00:23, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

Sorry Manning, but I am not retracting anything I have stated, because it is grounded in seeing what has been happening, and is occurring. DC takes issue with me calling this "homophobic harrassment"; he can take issue all he likes, but DC is the one who has stated:

Fæ added an image to the article, with the caption "Naturism on the south end of the beach". It should be noted that this image File:Voidokilia naturists.jpg is Fæ's own work and upload.

After an irrelevant comment about Commons, DC then goes on to say:

None of these things are the types of actions that we should expect from admins or experienced editors.

So according to DC, posting photos of this beach on the article relating to this beach, is not what the community expects? Excuse me whilst I choke, but that comes across to me as most homophobic in nature, and it is disappoints me that DC has made the posting of these photos to the article an issue; but am somewhat glad. DC has made this photos an issue, not because they are an issue, but because pointing to photos that may indicate that Fae is possibly queer is obviously going to appeal to the lowest common denominator amongst certain editors (and not to mention score him a few bonus points on WR); this is not only harrassment of Fae, but it is also giving any queer editor notice that if you improve specific articles with "queer" photos, you will not only be sidelined, but you will be harrassed in the process. Is this really the message we need to be sending to queer editors? The mere fact that DC has not supplied any reason for making the two photos an issue, other than complain that it is not homophobic harrassment, WP:SPADE is going to apply from where I sit, and I am telling you it will appear that way to most uninvolved queer editors too. Y u no be Russavia ^{ლ(ಠ益ಠლ)} 02:06, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

I did not point out Fæ's image of a naked man on a beach to suggest that he is gay, I pointed it out to illustrate his conflict of interest in labelling this beach as a nude beach using poor sourcing. I did not call them "queer photos" - those were Russavia's words, and words that I would not use. I did not make any suggestion or insinuation regarding gay editors and none should be read into this RFC/U which is about the edits made by a specific editor. This latest rant is way beyond the pale and Russavia should be blocked for it. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 03:16, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

A conflict of interest? What conflict of interest is there in Fae being at this beach, and taking photos of "naturism on the south end of the beach" and then uploading them and inserting them in the article? There is no conflict of interest. I really do think you are reaching here now. And you also say that this is poor sourcing? As Fae was obviously at this beach, and took a photo, we WP:AGF in that this is true and correct. You have not presented any evidence which indicates that this should not be the case. Additionally, he has not used poor sourcing; he has used a Greek-published queer tourist guide (Annual Gay Travel Guide to Greece) as a source on this beach; given the topic, the source is OK, unless you can present evidence that the source he has used is incorrect? If any admin wants to block me, then feel free, but before doing so, please consider that two other users have endorsed by view that this entire request is a continuation of harrassment of Fae by different characters. Y u no be Russavia ^{ლ(ಠ益ಠლ)} 03:45, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

Russavia, you appear to have misunderstood my comments about the image and sourcing. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 11:57, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

I think Russavia has a rather strong point here. If the beach in question actually had a very different ethos I would be concerned about that photo and its inclusion. Delicious Carbuncle could you spell out what your concern is with the taking of that photo and its placing in that article? In particular, if someone posted a photo of a mixed gender group at another beach would you have the same concern? ϢereSpielChequers 14:22, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

I have no issues whatsoever about "the taking of that photo" - so far as I am concerned, Fæ is welcome to take whatever photos he likes while on vacation. I am not at all offended by the photo if that is what you are really asking. The issue here is a simple one and I thought it would be clear from what I wrote in the RFC/U - Fæ used a single extremely weak source to state that the beach "is considered friendly for naturists and gay tourists", which allowed them to add the image of what are presumably naturists and gay tourists. I believe the reference is used to justify the image, instead of the image being used to support what is in the article. That is the conflict of interest. Had another editor used similarly weak sourcing in an effort to add their vacation images of a "mixed gender group" of nude people to an article, I would have the same concerns. In the case of this particular user, there is a history of the gratuitous use of self-made images. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 13:14, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

What bunk. Also, be very careful still DC. You are treading on very dangerous ground here, especially as there is currently a discussion underway at Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#Delicious_Carbuncle_harassment_and_outing:_block_or_ban_proposal to see if you should be community banned for your harassment of Fae. Your mentioning of other images is enough to show me that you are intent on harassing Fae; the sick thing is, is that we as a community are allowing you to do so. Y u no be Russavia ^{ლ(ಠ益ಠლ)} 13:30, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

If I am banned -- and I may well be since I have chosen not to participate in my own defence -- it will be just another failure of process on Wikipedia. I have urged Fæ to follow dispute resolution rather than accuse me of harassment, but they have not. If I am about to be banned for harassment, surely it should be simple enough to show that harassment in an RFC/U? If I am banned, it will be for the hysterical and misleading statements made by you and Prioryman about Wikipedia Review and homophobia. And, admittedly, for my oversight in not redacting address information from a publicly available WHOIS record that is even now visible through a simple Google search. Please do not try to tell me what I may and may not discuss in the context of this RFC/U. I did not include anything about Fæ's history of placing their own images in articles because I did not feel that it was relevant, but if it becomes relevant here then it should be discussed. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 13:54, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

Jack Merridew's certification

Resolved

 – - RFC has now been properly certified by other editors, hence this discussion is moot. Manning (talk) 01:09, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

Discussion since rendered moot. Manning (talk) 01:16, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

I propose that the certification of Jack Merridew be reviewed. Bugs has raised some valid questions, as has a few others above. In the interim, the certification should be left in place, but with a note indicating it is being reviewed. Manning (talk) 00:10, 27 January 2012 (UTC) Proposal: The certification of Jack Merridew be allowed to remain. The use of Merridew's certification relies on the assumption that Fae=Ash. Until that evidence has been provided it cannot be used. Once that has been done then the issue of whether a two-year-old certification by a now-banned user is acceptable can progress.   Will Beback  talk  00:14, 27 January 2012 (UTC) If you have doubts, Will Beback, why don't you ask him? --PumknPi (talk) 00:21, 27 January 2012 (UTC) Perhaps you could do that and post the response here?   Will Beback  talk  00:24, 27 January 2012 (UTC) [1] Nobody Ent 00:29, 27 January 2012 (UTC) If a user varnished to avoid a RFC user then returns almost immediately under a new identity then , yes, clearly the old RFC does still have action. Youreallycan 00:18, 27 January 2012 (UTC) Only if all of those things are true. The first thing we need to do is establish that these are the same person. I haven't seen anyone providing evidence to show that.   Will Beback  talk  00:24, 27 January 2012 (UTC) Using a 2-year old endorsement of issues which are significantly different to that raised here, is an absolutely atrocious idea given that this is entire request is an WR engineered exercise in harrassment. Y u no be Russavia ლ(ಠ益ಠლ) 00:19, 27 January 2012 (UTC) I've removed the seperate "support/oppose" sections, since voting gives you weevils. I do however, believe that the previous certification should stand. As there is the appearance that avoiding RFS was at least part of the driver for the namechange, and as the behavior has continued (I'll provide evidence of that soon) closing this RfC would be inappropiate. Aaron Brenneman (talk) 00:27, 27 January 2012 (UTC) If you've been involved in trying to resolve the problems then you could certify it yourself and avoid this issue.   Will Beback  talk  00:34, 27 January 2012 (UTC) support Nobody Ent 00:29, 27 January 2012 (UTC) Oppose on principle. You can't use a 2-year-old comment in support of a current RFC. Keep the admin Manning's comment in place for the benefit of readers. DC tried to hide that fact by pushing it to the talk page. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 00:44, 27 January 2012 (UTC) Comment Aaron Brenneman and Nobody Ent have both certified the current RFC. Assuming they have actually been involved in trying to resolve the dispute then their signatures are sufficient and the banned user's signature is unnecessary.   Will Beback  talk  00:47, 27 January 2012 (UTC) Pending confirmation of the above, we can remove Merridew's certification and then close this discussion. Manning (talk) 01:02, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

Of note

WP:PA and other WP:DE complaints against the Fæ admin account: Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive712#Admin conduct review requested. A WP:RFC/U was suggested by several participants in that discussion. Should they be notified of this one? ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 08:24, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

Yes, provided the notification goes to the full gamut of commentators and cannot be seen as just picking out those who were hostile to Ash in the first place.--Peter cohen (talk) 16:52, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

What about the people that voted in the first RFA without knowing the full story? Should we notify them? N^oformation ^Talk 18:21, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

That would appear to be well within the limits of WP:CANVASS if and only if all those !voting there are notified (excepting only those who indicate that they wish no notifications, or are barred from being notified in some way due to topic bans etc.) in a scrupulously neutral manner that the discussion exists. Collect (talk) 18:47, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

How about "Hello. A request for comment is currently taking place at Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/Fæ. Because you voted in Fae's RFA, your input is welcome." Sound good? N^oformation ^Talk 19:06, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

Given that this is a re-opening of a dormant RFC/U, I think it would be helpful to notify the original participants of that fact. I am wary of being accused of canvassing even for suggesting this, but it seems like an obvious thing to do in a case like this. I am hopeful that if nothing else comes out of this, we can at least learn from this request if similar cases arise in the future (and they will). Delicious carbuncle (talk) 03:57, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

I think we have consensus for a broad and neutral notification to (1) participants in the RfA, (2) participants in the 1st RfC/U, and (3) participants in that ANI discussion. Given the large number of editors involved, I have filed a WP:BOTREQ for this. ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 05:30, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

Undeleted

If the certification is invalid, so be it. Lets discuss that.

If the evidence underpinning this RFC is invalid, so it it. Lets discuss that. If the evidence underpinning the RFC is so wrong and inappropriate that it should be deleted, so be it.

Arbcom did not endorse Fæ's RFA. I did. Feel free to discuss that.

Neither Arbcom nor myself had anything to do with Fæ's seat on the Wikimedia UK Board of Trustees; the Wikimedia UK members selected him, and that is not an appropriate topic for RFCs on English Wikipedia. John Vandenberg ^(chat) 08:10, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

John, you failed to answer when I emailed you, and the entire ArbCom also refused to answer, the simple question: Are user:Ash and user:Fæ the same person? If they are, how do you know that and when did you become aware of it?   Will Beback  talk  08:23, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

Again, Will Beback, why don't you just ask him? Maybe something like this; "Hey Fæ, are you Ash?". -PumknPi (talk) 09:27, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

A) I'm not the one presenting evidence in this dispute. It's reasonable to ask someone making an assertion to prove it. That's standard across Wikipedia.

B) Fae deleted the question when someone else asked, so he's the wrong one to ask. The issue of whether editors need to deny things is unclear. Does an editor need to identify conflicts of interest and prior/alternate accounts when asked? Do they need to answer questions or make denials if accused?

C) I was instructed by DC to ask the ArbCom, which I did. I thought it'd be a simple matter to resolve with them but perhaps nothing is simple that involves a committee. They were also the wrong ones to ask.

D) There are still two remaining existential issues for this RFC/U: First, someone in authority needs to make the determination that"Ash=Fae" or clear evidence needs to be added. Second, the certifiers should establish their efforts to resolve the dispute.

E) I wish you all luck with this RFC/U and hope that it improves Wikipedia. However I regret having any involvement with it and I withdraw from further engagement. This may not be an example of the Wikipedia's best dispute resolution process.

F) I'd still like to get a better explanation from John V. of why we know that Ash = Fae, and who knew of the connection when. That's directly related to this RFC/U.   Will Beback  talk  09:53, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

Hi Will, im sorry you didnt get a response from Arbcom that helped you. You didnt email me directly; you did cc me to an email addressed to arbcom-l that was sent way less than a day ago. (I've spent most of today gardening..) This is a good reason to use onwiki communication before using onwiki tools. There is no consensus above that the RFC remains invalid after the new certifications. Unfortunately while Arbcom can be informed of prior accounts, and they may reject an editors clean start, Arbcom doesnt disclose the previous identity merely because there is an RFC in its early stages. To be honest, there hasnt been much discussion over the years about if and when Arbcom should disclose details of a clean start that the community has an interest in. Arbcom members look at accounts when they are informed of a clean start; it rejects some, records and advises others, but it neither monitors nor protects the users thereafter. Maybe it should fully investigate and monitor clean starts indefinitely. It would be great if ArbCom had the resources to do this; they don't. It is the users responsibility to conform to the requirements of a cleanstart. I know I looked at user:Fæ's edits and was convinced that they were a valid cleanstart. (I saw a few minor issues, and discussed them with Fæ) If there has been a significant problem with editing by user:Fæ (before RFA or since), this is the time to raise it. If Fæ's editing has been good, then the clean start worked and the RFC is without merit in that regards. However in addition to that aspect, there are views here regarding the clean start, Arbcom and RFA process, and we should consider them, perhaps as a separate RFC. John Vandenberg ^(chat) 09:57, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

I envy you. I spent a couple of hours shoveling packed snow. Under the working assumption that Ash = Fae, the claim of clean start is questionable. Whether some people belong on the list of gay bathhouse regulars—a dispute involving User:Ash—is not very far afield BLP-wise from the dispute whether some model's adult video and "superhead" sexually-loaded nickname belong in her Wikipedia biography—a heated dispute involving User:Fæ, in which I have to say both sides behaved subpar if one peruses the talk page archives. So, clean start is very fuzzy concept under these circumstances. ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 10:14, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

Hi John. I did use onwiki communications. See #Fae=Ash? on this page, plus other threads. No one, including you in this thread, has provided evidence that Ash=Fae. Excuse me for asking for the basic evidence. RFC/Us have a strict deadline for compliance, which still has not been met. It seems only fair to hold this RFC/U to the usual standards. So, again, how do you know that Ash=Fae?   Will Beback  talk  10:14, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

I think that the strict 48hrs. requirement is only for people signing on the dotted line that they certify the RfC/U. Disputing other evidence is not a reason to delete the RfC, especially since it was already deleted and restored once, and your deletion may be considered WP:WHEELWAR. You are welcome to add your view to the RfC that the identity of the editor operating the two accounts has not been established beyond a reasonable doubt, or whatever standard you think should be used. ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 10:20, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

Wheelwar refers to undoing administrative actions. That would apply to the second or third action, not the first.

@ASCIIn2Bme: Do you have clear evidence that Ash=Fae? If so, could you post it please?   Will Beback  talk  10:26, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

This thread has already been posted multiple times. I believe there can be no doubts that Fae and Ash are the very same person. Salvio ^{Let's talk about it!} 11:07, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

Salvio, Will has already stated that that ANI thread does not meet his lofty standards, though it is more than enough for the rest of us. Tarc (talk) 13:26, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

Cleanstart is an opportunity, not a free pass. Per policy the onus is on the editor to make it work , not on the community to put on blinders. Nobody Ent 11:27, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict) It depends on the level of proof someone thinks necessary. I think WP:DUCK is often involved in deciding WP:SPI cases where the CheckUser info is unavailable. User:Fæ has explicitly denied being another named user, [2] but insofar has refused to either confirm or deny that they were Ash, despite being asked on-wiki repeatedly. Is there any exculpatory/counterbalancing evidence that this is just a coincidence given the overlapping interests and the statement on "moving my spheres of interest to new topics to become a more generalist Wikipedian and avoiding the articles which were the sites of previous disputes without it being a complete self-ban"? ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 11:30, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

Revdeletion of Fæ's talk page

I was certain that the question Ash=Fæ was asked before this given that the ANI thread is months old. In an interesting use of WP:REVDEL, some questions on the same topic have been deleted using administrative tools. You can have a look at Special:Contributions/Bali ultimate on 28 December for a hint [3]. ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 11:52, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

Sequence query

Will someone establish the sequence of events for creation/first edits from the Fae account, last edits of the Ash account, and date of start and ending of the RfC/U on Ash please? I fear my timeline that I found would not appear to conform with the wishes and claims of some concerning the sequence. Cheers. Collect (talk) 13:47, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

• This was Ash's last edit to the RfC on 9 April 2010. The RfC was closed on 30 May 2010 due to 'inactivity'. Fae's first edit was on 28 March 2010, during the RfC. 109.145.231.249 (talk) 14:20, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
  • • In short - Fae was an "alternate persona" actively editing during the entire RFC/U? Not a usage "after" the RFC/U as claimed in the RfA? Collect (talk) 15:25, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
      • Given that the RfC/U on Ash started on 5 April 2010‎, it's apparent that the Fæ account made its first edit before that event, namely on 28 March 2010. Now it's possible that there were other discussions on the topic somewhere else besides the RfC/U which may have convinced Ash to start a new account before the RfC/U even started. ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 16:23, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
      • User:Ash was clearly reconsidering participation in Wikipedia around March 25 [4]. Next day Ash gave up on filing a RfC/U on User:Delicious carbuncle [5]. ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 18:40, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
        • In other words, the Fae account is a sock, not a cleanstart, and he wasn't truthful about the RFC in his RFA [6] Nobody Ent 00:45, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
          • I think it's well known by now that the two accounts were operated simultaneously for a period of time (roughly two weeks in March-April 2010 for few hundred edits, mostly semi-automated, plus one talk page edit in July). This was amply discussed in the November ANI thread. Fæ admitted to the overlap during the RfA [7], after most of the votes were in. So I don't see the lie, except perhaps "adminship is no big deal", but that was uttered by someone else there. ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 01:32, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

            • lie ≠ untruthful and before ≠ after. Nobody Ent 03:02, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

              • The "after an RFC/U ... I took the option of a clean start" issue has already been covered in ReverendWayne's view, which I endorsed and so have you. Is there anything else? ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 03:37, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
                • ReverendWayne said "during," but it was actually "before." Nobody Ent 10:48, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

The post-Fae edits by Ash were just tying up Ash loose ends. That can't reasonably be construed as socking. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 02:54, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

When a user claims to have left Wikipedia but has actually been editing at the same time using another account, socking is exactly what it is. Fæ did not simply stop editing and later decide to return with a new account. There's nothing "clean" about Fæ's clean start. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 04:16, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

"Clean Start" allows a user to abandon an old identity - which could have any number of valid reasons listed at WP:CLEANSTART - and return immediately with another account, editing in a different behaviour and in different areas than the old account. I find it interesting that you believe what Fæ is doing - or, rather, has done - is something other than that. Perhaps the Ash account was needed at one time to finalize some edits in closing down use of that account. Was it used in the encyclopedia after Fæ came to be? CycloneGU (talk) 05:42, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

Interesting coincidence

Special:Contributions/Benjiboi stopped editing on the same day that the Fæ account was created. Benjiboi was involved in the same dispute with DC as Ash was. Subsequently, Benjiboi was banned for sockpuppeting. ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 04:11, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

Fæ is not a Benjiboi sockpuppet, if that is what you are suggesting. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 04:21, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

A less malicious explanation is far more plausible: both editors shared views about how to deal with gay porn articles on Wikipedia, as one can see from Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive600#Creation of new biographical articles introducing BLP and sourcing issues for instance. And they both intended to start a RfC/U on you, [8] which was mysteriously abandoned when they both mysteriously disappeared practically at the same time. It's true that after that event their wiki-fates diverged enormously. ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 04:37, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

Question for ArbCom

On what date did the Committee first became aware of the existence of a prior account of Fæ? ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 16:23, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

• We're always aware of everything, and in control of it, as well. St John Chrysostom ^view/_my bias, ^(secret) member of the ROUGE CABAL, 16:52, 28 January 2012 (UTC) On a more serious note, I'd like to know as well. I was not involved in this until the ANI (and still really am not): it kind of reminds me of high school or national politics (whichever you prefer), with documentation!

I've been looking into this off and on since late December. I emailed Arbcom a month ago with a series of questions about what they knew about "Fae's" past accounts (the linkage between this account and "Ash" was made clear when Fae publicly announced his identity [9]), his editing activity on this website, and what they think that might say about his suitability for positions of power. I have not received a response and at this point don't expect one. Though I don't intend to participate in this RFC, the thing that interests me is the level of responsibility he's been given in representing Wikimedia to the government and public in the UK, weighed against his editing behavior over the years, particularly the misuse of sources and a casual attitude towards protecting the privacy and reputation of article subjects. There are related concerns on how very small, self-selected groups of individual wield large amounts of power on wikimedia websites, rather than "the community" that is so often spoken of in public forums.Bali ultimate (talk) 17:09, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

What I am bemused by is that Fae and his advisors persist in fighting a case where damage to Wikimedia will be the inevitable result. A journalist whose main job is as Middle East Correspondent for a brand that typically picks up a Pulitzer Prize about once a decade has announced that he is writing an article about various goings on to do with Wikimedia and its projects with the antics of Fae being a key element of what he is going to submit. The prudent step to take is that Fae resigns from his various positions and then Dan Murphy's article immediately becomes a lot less interesting to potential publishers. Does he show any sign of doing so? No.

Similarly, my letter to the Joint Committee on Privacy and Injunctions will largely be neutralised if Fae resigns. I have pointed out that, while he denied that there were BLP and privacy issues on Wikipedia when testifying to the committee, he himself has a continuing history with his past and current accounts here and on Commons of harming other people's privacy. If he were to resign his various Wikimedia/Wikipedia positions, then WMUK will be in a position to disassociate themselves from his evidence and to write to the Committee giving a franker description of the privacy and BLP issues on Wikipedia.

Again, I have mentioned both on the WMUK mailing list and to Jon Davies face to face that there is a real threat to the charity's reputation if someone were to write to Private Eye about some of the earlier accounts' contributions and, indeed, some of Fae's contributions on Commons while he has been a trustee of WMUK. Greg Kohs online articles aren't taken seriously by anyone. Coverage in PE would be hugely more damaging. That potential danger is removed the moment that Fae stops holding a position with them.

Rather than think of what is best for Wikimedia and its projects, Fae and his associates are taking a course that leaves WM at risk. Yes, of course, there have been some unpleasant homophobic posts on WR as well as distinctly nasty stuff appearing here on WP and on Commons. That does not mean that all, or indeed most, people who criticise Fae are homophobes. And the "don't ask, don't tell" approach to questions about whether he is indeed Ash, including deletions and indeed revdels both on Commons and here, is quite ridiculous. WP:CLEANSTART has explicit limitations and Fae's distortion of the policy is just another example of his unfitness for any position of authority connected with Wikipedia.--Peter cohen (talk) 20:48, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

I've been reading Private Eye long enough to remember when Auberon Waugh had a column there. Wikimedia UK board member is gay and has written Wikipedia articles about gay pornstars might have merited coverage in the early 80s but today you'd need rather more than that. However there is a risk that this RFC could result in press coverage, If the Gay press pick up on this and write a story about Homophobia on the web then we would have a problem, though hopefully they would be clear that Wikipedia Review is an independent site many of whose editors have been banned from Wikipedia. But I would suggest that those who want this RFC to become valid try to fill in the necessary gaps to make it valid, or alternatively get it deleted. At present it omits the essential step of demonstrating that there had been an unsuccessful attempt at dispute resolution with Fae. It doesn't show a current or recent problem that we are asking Fae to address, and it includes legitimate but gay themed edits as evidence of misbehaviour. Not the community's finest hour and not a combination that I'd care to defend. ϢereSpielChequers 10:33, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

The answer the initial question is currently over on Fae's talk page. I will be honest with you, that I find it a little disturbing. During the RfA Fae appealed strongly to John/ArbCOM's review and John was a very vocal voice in Fae's defense. In this discussion, however, it appears as if Fae/John have a different recollection of events and the depth to which ArbCOM/John were involved.

NOTE: While it appears that John/ArbCOM didn't perform the review the community/Fae expected, it does not appear as if Fae intentionally mislead the community. It looks as if he made incorrect statements, which he thought were true, but were not corrected/challenged by John or ArbCOM.

This revelation still doesn't change the fact, the community abrogated its responsibility to vett Fae and shouldn't revisit the issue now.---Balloonman ^{Poppa Balloon} 16:00, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

Wikipedia Review

In their endorsement of a position User:Shrigley wrote:

"DC's style is to say no more than would break the shield of plausible deniability. However, the general environment on WR is, whenever the subject arises, obviously homophobic. The LGBT wikiproject and LGBT pictures on commons are constant grievances; BLP crusades disproportionately serve to minimize the visibility of gay people and to aggrandize antigay politicians; and Fæ is not the first prominent LGBT editor that DC has targeted. This is shameless dog-whistle politics: where overt gay-bashing is not tolerated on Wikipedia, sustained harassment and outing campaigns against prominent gay editors are. Who knows? Maybe DC is just out to save the encyclopedia, and it just so happens that the worst editors are gay. We can't read minds. But the effect of his actions is that many gay editors, myself included, feel intimidated and unwelcome on Wikipedia. Shrigley (talk) 03:09, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

While this content probably belongs on the talk page instead of their endorsement, I would like to address it. Wikipedia Review is a forum with contributors from a wide array of Wikipedia editors and non-editors, including several current admins and the former legal counsel of the WMF. It is simply ridiculous to ascribe any single position to such a forum. Nonetheless, what Shrigley states is factually incorrect. LGBT images and the LGBT Wikiproject are not constant grievances - I cannot recall a thread devoted to either of these topics and I suspect even mentions of them are rare. Commons images containing explicit nudity and how those images are handled on Commons seem to be frequent topics of conversation, but I suggest that the vast majority of those images feature either masturbation by a single person or explicit "heterosexual" sex. Having said that, there are comments made on Wikipedia Review that I find to be offensive, but that is the nature of that community. Yes, there are comments there that many people would see as homophobic, but those are comments made by individual contributors and not reflective of the forum as a whole.

If Shrigley would like to provide a list of "prominent LGBT editors" that I have "targeted", perhaps I can address that concern also. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 18:41, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

Anyone attacked by the children at Weekly Reader should wear it as a badge of honor. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 18:48, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

I never said that the forum has a single position on any issue. However, certain opinions on WR - including antigay ones, in my experience - are expressed more often than not. I'm not going to point to any specific threads or posts: As has just been demonstrated following Russavia's statement, embarrassing WR posts have a tendency to disappear once they come under scrutiny from Wikipedians. My point is, WR is a partisan audience that can be expected to treat alleged LGBT evildoers more harshly than it treats other users. If you're not sensitive to this fact, then you're somewhat complicit in it. As for the targeted editors, I am really thinking of two examples: User:Benjiboi and User:Cirt. While the latter is not LGBT-identified to my knowledge, s/he did make extraordinary content contributions to the topic area, as did Benjiboi. I don't need to hear about how they were horrible people who did horrible things and were justly punished in righteous struggle. That may be. But for whatever they did, I do think there's some added satisfaction from their banishment, and from Fæ's expected banishment, in the silencing of LGBT voices and representation on Wikipedia. Shrigley (talk) 19:43, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

Shrigley, first of all I sympathize with anyone who's suffered gay bashing. Secondly, I have to disagree with you that on WR -- "antigay [views] are expressed more often than not" -- that's just not true. It's more often the case that someone gets snickered at for uploading a semi-nude image of themselves all hog-tied, not because they are supposedly gay. --PumknPi (talk) 19:49, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

Even if it were true, why should any self-respecting wikipedia editor give a flying freak what the Weekly Reader idiots have to say? Where's the backbone??? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:10, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

Bugs, no offense, but cork it. It has been a fun game over the years to malign that place as the proverbial wretched hive of scum and villainy, but the reality is that the population there mirrors the population found in the Wikipedia or that of every other group of people; some good, some bad, and a whole lot that are just ordinary. Tarc (talk) 23:21, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

No way, man. I want that "Vexatious Litigant of the Year" award again. :) Being attacked by Weekly Reader is strong evidence that I'm doing things right. It's a little like being attacked by Newt. :) ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:32, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

"...evidence that I'm doing things right" -- really Baseball Bugs? What significant content have you created recently? What encyclopedic work of quality have you done in recent memory? Truthfully, Baseball Bugs, you're just 'hanging out' and having a good time by drama mongering. You are a net deficit to the project, without a doubt. Furthermore, there are administrators, arbitrators, checkusers and serious Wikipedia editors participating at Wikipedia Review. Please consider that they might be the reason you are ridiculed there, on WR, where people can speak their honest minds. --PumknPi (talk) 04:05, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

You, who have been here a grand total of 5 weeks, don't have a clue about anything. I don't have quarrels with admins, arbs and checkusers. The ones at Weekly Reader, who criticize wikipedians in the most childish ways they can come up with, are primarily former wikipedia editors who got booted and weren't happy about it. Their "honest minds" are a net deficit to themselves. Again I say, no one here should be intimidated by anything those morons say to or about them. That "look what you made me do" (or "not do") argument being used here is really, really offensive. The worst "insult" they could come up towards me is that I'm a defender of wikipedia. That "insult" is an unintended compliment. In this situation on this page, you've got a complainant who doesn't trust any admin well enough to take this offline; and you've got someone who may have weaseled his way into adminship by being dishonest. Put that in your Pi and smoke it. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 05:04, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

Run this buy me again, BBB, What significant content have you created recently? What encyclopedic work of quality have you done in recent memory??? --PumknPi (talk) 05:11, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

Well, let's see... I did some article creation and expansion over at the Simple English Wikipedia, during that one-day block that Wikipedia imposed on everyone. I also have a significant watch list here, and as always, I fixed things as they came up. Also, today, over at ANI someone complimented me regarding my stance on an SPA making a legal threat. I think the exact quote was "Bugs is right." So there's plenty I do here. You've been here 5 weeks, and if you take your own advice and focus on supporting wikipedia, you'll do well here. :) ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 05:44, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

Alternatively, since it's pretty obvious that Punkin is a long-standing editor, maybe he could give us some diffs of articles he worked on, say last summer for example. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 07:03, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

Shrigley, it is impossible for me to respond to such things as "I do think there's some added satisfaction from their banishment, and from Fæ's expected banishment, in the silencing of LGBT voices and representation on Wikipedia" with any kind of reasonable argument. That is not the case, but if that is what you think, I am unlikely to be able to change your mind. It is beyond farcical to say that my disputes with Cirt had anything to do with LGBT issues - it was very clearly about their anti-Scientology POV-pushing and violations f our policies with regard to biographies of living people. If they have a connection to the LGBT community, it is incidental and, as you point out, unclear. Benjiboi was a self-proclaimed "homo-propagandist", as it used to say in their now-deleted autobiography Sister Kitty Catalyst O.C.P., so it would be difficult to imagine a dispute with that editor that did not involve LGBT culture. Despite that, our disagreements were in regard to sourcing and violations of BLP in biographies of gay porn performers, not in relation to LGBT subjects in any general sense. Note that this is where I encountered User:Ash, who was deeply involved in supporting Benjiboi. Benjiboi has since been exposed as a very prolific sockpuppeteer and troll. I would not be at all surprised to learn that the offensive comments made on Fæ's userpage were made by Benjiboi to stir up exactly this kind of discussion. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 20:32, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

False accusations of homophobia are against everything that this project stands for, videlicet, collaboration, compromise, and cooperation. A few Wikipedia editors unfortunately make the mistake of believing that almost any kind of tactic is ok to use when they are losing a debate. Those editors need to understand, however, that such tactics are completely unacceptable, if not clearly beneath contempt. Cla68 (talk) 05:25, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

Connecting User:Ash to User:Fæ by popular request

I had hoped it would not be necessary to do this on-wiki simply to confirm what has already been openly discussed in various on-wiki discussions, which is why I requested that concerned parties contact ArbCom about the connection between the two accounts. I can think of no way to establish that the two accounts are/were controlled by the same person without at the same time exposing the real-life identity of that person. Since others have already connected Fæ to their full name on this talk page, although I believe this is likely running afoul of the letter of the WP:OUTING policy, it will not be revealing any new private information, nor does it rely on revdeleted material.

In November of 2006, User:Ash (although it may have been as User:Ashleyvh, later renamed to User:Ash) uploaded an image of Charles Dunstone (log). The description was "Photograph of Charles Dunstone taken by Ashley Van Haeften in 2005". That image was deleted by Fæ on 18 April 2011 (log) with the edit summary "F1: Redundant copy of non-Commons file in the same file format". If one looks at File:Charles_Dunstone.jpg today, one finds that the image does indeed now reside on Commons and is attributed to Fæ as "own work". I think a reasonable person would find this more than enough to conclude that the two accounts are controlled by the same person. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 20:10, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

That is clarification . Youreallycan 20:14, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

More directly [10] Nobody Ent —Preceding undated comment added 22:22, 28 January 2012 (UTC).

I told DC of a way he could proceed without openly outing, and he ignored it: Communicate with an admin offline. If his conclusion is true about these two users that might be just one, what's to be done? Fae claims to be open to recall. Since he got his adminship through possibly shady means, presumably he should be taken up on that offer. So if DC's facts are correct, what's the next step? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:06, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

Not so much an "if", but you can see the history of the image page, I believe. It shows who originally uploaded it, and who uploaded the newest version. With that said, since it's been noted that Fae is male in an WP:AN discussion, saying that Fae is Ashley Van Haeften is something I find hard to believe. The possibility there would be that the user wrongly claimed to be male to distance further from the other account. This isn't criminal itself, but does raise eyebrows if this were proven true. CycloneGU (talk) 23:45, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

"Ashley" is not exclusively a female name, particularly in England and Australia. See Ashley (name)#First name, male Beyond My Ken (talk) 00:10, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

The male character Ashley Wilkes from Gone With the Wind, for example. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 01:11, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

CycloneGU: perhaps you missed Nobody Ent's link directly above. 28bytes (talk) 00:42, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

Actually, I did see it before making this comment, but took a second look and now see the name attached to the ID. Now it qualifies as a dead giveaway. What is the image that was originally uploaded by User:Ash? Even if they are the same person, I still argue that a desysop discussion is more appropriate than another RfA. CycloneGU (talk) 02:13, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

Delicious Carbuncle:

"I think a reasonable person would find this more than enough to conclude that the two accounts are controlled by the same person."

Not at all. All this establishes is that editor Ash uploaded a file whose author he nominated as being someone called Ashley van Haeften, and which editor Fæ later claimed to be his. Assuming neither editor was telling fibs, the most you could reasonably conclude from this is that Fæ's real name was Ashley van Haeften—which is already known from his disclosure of it on the Wikimedia UK website—and that Ash knew that van Haeften was the file's author and was willing to publish it under an appropriate licence. However, while he was still editing, Ash performed several uploads in which he did openly reveal his real name—again assuming that he wasn't telling fibs. In these uploads he explicitly identified the author of the uploaded file by name in the upload edit summary, and then claimed these as his own work. Not all of these have yet been revision deleted. Here's one, and here's another.

David Wilson (talk · cont) 01:47, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

You are correct - the are scenarios in which the two users could have been separate people and both be truthful, but I believe that the deleted image also claimed that it was Ashley Van Haeften's "own work". Anyone who can see the deleted image will have no trouble finding many instances of self-identification by that account. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 05:11, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

[11], [12], [13]. [14], [15], [16]. --JN466 05:37, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

Where is the opposition

I have noticed that every summary has a list of signatories who support the summary while excluding even a template section where signatories may oppose. I feel this skews results insinuating participants either agree or remain silent. I am initially shocked at the precedent here which seems to endorse speculative outing of an editor. My76Strat (talk) 20:22, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

Unless you are blind deaf and dumb - its common knowledge. - I struchk this comment - it came out all wrong, I just meant to say that the details are above and they have been requested by a user who closed the RFC user because he disputed them. Youreallycan 20:24, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

I presume this is your idea of helpful discourse. Perhaps I should apply the same reservation. My76Strat (talk) 20:28, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

RFCs have never had an oppose section. The idea is that an opposer to "I believe that X occurred..." will write their own view in the positive sense "I believe that Y occurred..." and others will endorse it and the positive view of "I believe that Y occurred..." will be shown to have more support then the other views. MBisanz ^talk 20:28, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

I have merely given my perspective as one who hasn't participated in this format and may never again. I certainly didn't garner a thing welcoming by the initial response. My76Strat (talk) 20:34, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

It says clearly near the top of the main page Users should not edit other people's summaries or views, except to endorse them. If you look at past RFC/Us, you can see how they're done. When entering a new social situation, it is wise to observe and learn the norms before making critical comments. If you wish to propose change in the process, I believe Wikipedia talk:Requests for comment would be the proper forum. Nobody Ent 20:57, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

I never said I was wise, I said I didn't feel very welcome. And I said I am concerned at the cavalier disregard of wp:outing that jumps out at the most cursory read. My76Strat (talk) 21:03, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

Do you often walk into a room, tell everyone they are holding their wine glasses incorrectly and then wonder why people won't talk to you? You didn't do your research, you got the cold shoulder. So what? Move on, everyone else has.101.118.48.43 (talk) 22:06, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

To be honest, I have at times also wondered things like My76Strat's thoughts about this type of process. What I am thinking is that an observation is made as to how many are participating and a percentage is determined for each section. Remember the whole thing about Pending Changes? One page discussing it - an RfC, I think - had the same format. I think Strat also participated there. But in support of Strat's original comment, I also am curious exactly how a proposal is deemed to "pass" or otherwise have enough support to become the consensus without an "oppose"-type section. Or...do directly conflicting viewpoints serve as the only means of measuring? CycloneGU (talk) 22:27, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

It is not true that RFCs have never had oppose sections. I've seen user RFCs that did, just like My765Strat wants. It's just that they were deprecated at some point. But usually one of the views will say "this RFC is overblown and baseless" and you can always compare the supporters on that to the number of endorsers. 169.231.55.236 (talk) 08:49, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, I beleive it was the BLP PROD debates where use of OPPOSES were common place--- I might be mistaken on that, but I do remember we had opposes all over the place and that some people were questioning them because it was atypical to have oppose sections. but that there were too many issues not to have them.---Balloonman ^{Poppa Balloon} 15:48, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

Um

I received a notice about this RfC. I am not 100% sure where I was involved with this user. My guess is it was in a discussion on the Administrator's noticeboard, but I am not certain. Can someone please link me to discussions regarding this user or discussions about things done by this user where I have been involved so I may comment further on those specific scenarios, or support accordingly other views? Without knowing, I cannot appropriately comment. CycloneGU (talk) 22:08, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

You commented in an AN/I thread about Fæ's conduct, in which an RFC/U was proposed, so I assume that's why you were notified. 28bytes (talk) 22:57, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

Thank you, that helps. I only had the one comment replying to another user in the discussion, but based on my reading the thread previously and again now, I have an understanding of this now. CycloneGU (talk) 23:22, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

Recall

Since there has been a call for Fae to stand another RfA, this is xe's recall procedure. It seems that xe does not favor reconfirmation RfAs. --Guerillero | My Talk 23:10, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

• Ech... "petition were based on edits made since my last RFA." and "Problematic behaviours should represent a current problem and evidence when a petition is raised should be based on issues within the previous 12 months." Bulwersator (talk) 23:24, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

Well, the users RFA was only ten months ago and imo the user failed to declare reasonably relevant information that would have drastically altered the outcome. Youreallycan 23:31, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

I disagree. The user did allude to a fresh start. It doesn't matter, and never did matter what the other account was. The community agreed to give him the option of a fresh start, and since we did not know his history, his adminship and successful RfA resulting from it is fully justified. He should not be forced to endure another week-long RfA, but rather, if there is a possible consensus for desysoping, for that procedure to be used. CycloneGU (talk) 23:36, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

I do not disagree with you CycloneGU and if this view failed to gain support I wouldn't be agitated. I offer it as congruent with a loss of confidence I perceive and extenuate that it does not imply I would oppose at RfA/R. My76Strat (talk) 23:42, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

@CycloneGU - he did "allude to it" - and that is the correct expression - the details he gave, especially in regard to the RFC user under the user name Ash were not a clear reflection of the facts at all. If he had clearly portrayed them he would have been opposed. As in ...ow yes, there was an RFC user and I learnt a lot from that, when the reality was that he began editing under another identity and the RFC user was closed because the Ash account had stopped editing. Youreallycan 23:48, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

An editor with a "past" needs to have that past totally transparent. If he hides it, he should automatically be disqualified from consideration. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 01:09, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

That would require a change to wp:CLEANSTART, either a minor change to say that blocks and RFCs have to be disclosed if you ever run for RFA or a major change. I might support some slight tightening of that policy, but I don't think that we should be retrospective about it, either for this case or any others. ϢereSpielChequers 14:03, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

A vital part of "clean start" is to stay away from topics they were previously involved in. Is that the case with this Ash and this Fae? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:58, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

You're at liberty to compare the edit histories of those accounts and make your own judgement, but I'd definitely go for "yes". The Land (talk) 21:11, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

At the time of Fae's RFA an Arb who knew the identity of his former account said that "I have looked over the contributions of old and new account names, and can also confirm that Fæ has refocused, in many ways". My own knowledge of Fæ's editing at the time of his RFA was based on our interactions in GLAM - we both took part in the Hoxne Hoard event, plus of course my review of user:Fæ's contributions when I !voted in his RFA. As I understand it User:Ash was mainly known for editing articles on Gay Porn stars. I'm not seeing diffs to indicate that Fae edits articles on Gay porn stars - those filing this RFC have certainly made a clear case that user:Ash and user:Fæ are both gay, and they are asserting that they are the same person. But they haven't made the case that they both edit articles on Gay pornstars, and as I understand it that was the topic where Ash was controversial. ϢereSpielChequers 12:19, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

The editing focus seems to be on Gay issues very heavily - there is a fine line being drawn it appears. Collect (talk) 12:52, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

This may be the nub of our differences here. My reading of the past concerns about Ash are that when we write about pornstars we need to be very careful in several ways, some former pornstars want to close a chapter in their lives and per BLP we have been supportive of that, and apparently there were concerns about the reliability of some of the sources that cover Gay porn. Using less reliable sources risks including stuff that is invented by the publicisers of that industry, and would have the effect of including BLPs on people who aren't really sufficiently notable. If Fae is Ash and if Fae had moved from Gay Pornstars to straight pornstars then as someone who supported his RFA I'd be uncomfortable that the refocus on his editing had drawn a fine line between the two accounts. But the very few examples of Fae's editing cited in this case include only one that is "adult" themed, and that straight rather than gay. So unless people can explain why we should be concerned that Fae's edits LGBT related articles, then it seems to me that if Fae is Ash then John Vandenberg's comment in the RFA is correct. ϢereSpielChequers 15:52, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

failed to declare reasonably relevant information that would have drastically altered the outcome--- you mean like acknowledging that some of the people who supported him would oppose him if they knew his identity/past? Like acknowledging that if his history/past were known that it would sabotogue his RfA? Those were both known facts during the RfA. The fact that we didn't have particulates doesn't matter, when the candidate admitted those two facts, it should have had everybody jumping to the oppose column. They didn't, instead they rallied around Fae. Fae should have never passed his RfA, but he told the community enough that it should have gone down in flames, but the community chose to ignore it and chose to make a statement that his time since starting a new account was sufficeint to prove that he had reformed. Dumb decision, but that was the overwhelming verdict... fast forward a year, we gave him a free pass a year ago---now it would be Double jeopardy. The prosecution (ME) failed to sway the jury (the supporters) and he was promoted. Now we have to live with it or show that he has misused the tools.---Balloonman ^{Poppa Balloon} 15:56, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

He hasn't misused the tools, on the contrary, he's been an asset, so the community made exactly the right decision when it passed his RfA. Exok (talk) 16:09, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

The community were not given all the relevant details and yet it trusted in some blind way - many users with a disruptive edit history but experianced, would make useful, non disruptive admins - perhaps we can use the RFA as an example - to loosen the standards of promotion. Youreallycan 16:20, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

In your edit summary you wrote that my statement that he shouldn't have passed his RfA is untenuable[17]. I think the evidence speaks for itself. There were admissions a year ago that if his identity/actions were known that it would kill his RfA---and it would have. The secrecy around the RfC should have scared people off. The fact that people who supported him a year ago are now crying foul, is further proof that the system failed a year ago. The RfA should not have gone the way it did, but people chose to ignore the warning signs---thus a year later we are in a spot that was easily predictable from a year ago.

That being said, the quality of admin he has (or has not) been since then is a different story. I am not going to call for his mop because the community blew it a year ago when we promoted him despite the warning signs. If he's been a good admin since then, great. That doesn't mean the system worked a year ago, it just means that despite the dysfunctionality of the system, Fae had indeed reformed. RfA failed a year ago, no question about it.

But that is why I am calling for proof that he has abused the tools and should be desysopped since then.

He should never have passed with the undsiclosed history and secrecy surrounding his old account. But we promoted him. We should not, now, remove the bit because a new jury doesn't like the decision the community reached a year ago. A year ago, the community decided it didn't care about Fae's past; we gave up our right to later cry foul because all of the t weren't crossed and the i's weren't dotted to our satisfaction. Do irregularities exist? Yes. But show me a valid reason, based upon his actions since the RfC, to remove the bit based upon his edits as Fae. We (the community) blew it a year ago when we promoted him, but if he has turned out to be a good admin despite the mistakes of a year ago, then I am not going to go on a witch hunt. If he's done everything right since then, I say to those whose feeling got hurt and feel duped... live with it. Show me that he needs to have the bit removed for actions taken since the RfA.---Balloonman ^{Poppa Balloon} 16:43, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

Wish someone had said that about me. Sam Blacketer (talk) 16:55, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

Forgive me, Balloonman, but it sounds a lot as if you believe you were right to have been in the "oppose" camp at Fæ's RfA. Any vote is a gamble based on risk, but where we stand now - with the benefit of hindsight - we can say you were wrong to have made the decision you did. If more people had followed your lead we would have lost a hugely useful, hard-working and competent admin. The community judged correctly at Fæ's RfA and you - through no fault of your own - decided wrongly: your mistrust was misplaced. Exok (talk) 17:04, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

I was right to be in the oppose camp---my fears and predictions have born fruit in this RfC. He should have never have been promoted without full disclosure. Based upon the facts available to us a year ago, my opposition was absolutely the right call. You can only act based upon the facts at hand. Even if he had turned into the best admin ever, gone onto ArbCOM and became a 'Crat, my opposition based upon the facts available, was absolutely correct. Having this second RfC with his promotion playing a role, should not have occured.

Now, fast forward a year, in hindsight he may have turned out to be a decent admin (I don't know, I haven't been watching him.) His effectiveness since then, is a different issue. Whether he has been a good/bad admin over the past year does not deter from the fact that had people known the full story they would not have promoted him (and that was admitted to during the rfa). He should not have been promoted for the reasons that people are objecting to it today.

I would also speculate that had I come in here, guns ablazing highlighting the errs I saw from a year ago, that this RfC could have a different tone than it does now. It could have turned into a SNOWBALL call for his resignation. People are upset about the "after" vs "during", about John's statements not being as accurate as they had hoped, about things they thought have been determined not to be true, etc. About how if they knew the facts they would have opposed and the first point of the RfC that if we did know the facts he would have failed... and he would have (but that was acknowledged during the RfA.) This RfC could have turned very ugly very fast, but the failure of the community a year ago, does not negate that it was the communities fault. We gave him a free pass.

For those who want to throw stones because they feel that they were deceived, how often do candidates run for RfA hoping that a specific discussion isn't found? Hoping that one edit isn't uncovered? Hoping that their view of a situation holds up? I suspect that if we started revoking past RfA's because a candidate/nominator misrepresented a fact (or we now dispute their interpretation of a fact) then we'd have a lot fewer admins. ArbCOM and the community failed the system a year ago when we didn't challenge his RfA; but that's not because we didn't have enough to oppose, we did, we just chose to ignore the warning signs. If he's been a decent admin since, judge him on his actions over the past 2 years. The community blew it a year ago---fact. To act without thinking today, could be an equally egregious error.---Balloonman ^{Poppa Balloon} 17:51, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

The "warning signs" of what? And who ignored them? How do you know they ignored them, rather than took them fully into account when voting? Your "fears and predictions" were groundless. This RfC does not prove the community made the wrong choice, it doesn't and cannot prove anything. The evidence to be considered is Fæ's contributions as an admin and they clearly demonstrate that those who supported his promotion made exactly the right choice, I salute them. Exok (talk) 18:13, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

The warning signs/fears and predictions are valid... I wasn't worried about his being a bad admin, but rather having to revisit the whole entire issue a year or two down the road... that people would be upset because they didn't have th full story... feeling that they were duped... calling for his resignation or a recall election. Guess what, less than a year later we are back discussing Fae. Is it fair to Fae? Not really, but we put this RfC into motion a year ago when he was promoted.---Balloonman ^{Poppa Balloon} 21:10, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

Compassion

I feel compelled to remind everyone that we are dealing with a human being with feelings, and an editor (now administrator) who has contributed enormously to Wikipedia and the Wikimedia Foundation. I think that problems have been identified that warrant this administrator relinquishing those powers, but also, I can barely imagine the pain and humiliation that Fæ must be going through right now. I encourage all of us, even those who feel that Fæ should step down or be removed, to say a kind word if their hearts are warm enough to do so. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 06:16, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

I agree with your sentiments here. My76Strat (talk) 07:04, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

Yup, me too. Stuff like this is just awful for the person going through it; probably far more emotionally traumatic than any "punishment" that could get meted out. It's known that RL criminals, when they've finally been found guilty and sentenced at the end of RL trials, can often heave a sigh of relief and say "Thank God that's over!" The actual imprisonment phase seems not as bad as sitting through their own trial. Despite everything, granny-type hugz to Fæ, just for some comfort. Pesky (talk …stalk!) 18:02, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

Move to strike "outside" view by IP editor (101.118.25.78)

I move to strike comments by the IP 101.118.25.78 as noted here. As this RfC is seeing quite a bit of activity on WR and other external sites, it is likely that this editor is someone who has been banned from editing WP. I don't know who it is, nor do I really care, but unless they are willing to own their comments by logging in and signing, I would move to srike their "outside" view entirely. Y u no be Russavia ^{ლ(ಠ益ಠლ)} 06:38, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

If WP:SPA are allowed a vote to close down wikipedia they should be allowed to comment here also. Youreallycan 09:50, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

No. The purpose of the blackout vote was to defend Wikipedia against attack. In that vote, SPAs were defending Wikipedia against attack. This is OK. But this RfC is also an attack on Wikipedia. SPAs should not be allowed to use this vehicle for this repulsive attack on all the values that Wikipedians hold so dear. (I am an SPA but it is OK as I am defending Wikipedia). 31.52.2.164 (talk) 10:41, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

Wikipedia was not under attack, so such a spurious scaremongering position was unwarranted. Anyone has a right to comment on anything in the brave new wikipedia world. Youreallycan 10:56, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

No, only positive views of Wikipedia should be allowed. "No one has a right to edit Wikipedia" is often cited. It is a private website. 31.52.2.164 (talk) 11:25, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

So if I, an editor of three or four years now, have a negative opinion about Wikipedia or some part of Wikipedia, I am not allowed to discuss it? CycloneGU (talk) 15:21, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

I'm forced to agree on this point. It is bad enough we condone the existence of IPs and SPAs in deletion discussions, but they should absolutely be barred from RfCs, Arbcoms, and the like. Tarc (talk) 14:11, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

Are IPs permitted to express positions in RFC/Us? Surely it should be easy to find the answer to that question at somewhere like WP:RFC/U? How is this dealt with in other RFC/Us? I don't have a position on this particular question, but it seems strange that IPs and SPAs would be allowed to participate in discussions about shutting down Wikipedia for the SOPA blackout but not otherwise. I can't think of another discussion that was so well covered in the media or one that had such potentially serious results. Just saying... Delicious carbuncle (talk) 15:15, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

(Edit conflict) I also find myself agreeing with this and was going to ask a similar question yesterday, but decided not to make a scene. I've seen IP votes discounted in deletion discussions in the past (though finding where now would be a chore), and I've seen them not allowed in other sections of Wikipedia (well, they can read, but their comments and votes are discounted). This is a higher-level process that IPs should not be participating in. There is too much potential for an IP sockpuppet with a vendetta to state a view against someone, succeed in passing that view, and never be seen again. I'm not saying this IP is doing this himself, but we can't have that risk. I move to strike the IP's view from the record, though the user is welcome to log into his account and post his personal viewpoint therein. CycloneGU (talk) 15:18, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

The IP is being protective of Wikipedia, as were the IPs in the blackout vote. An important precedent was set there by WMF, if you recall. 31.52.2.164 (talk) 15:20, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

Major difference. This was a call to action affecting the entire Internet. I think WMF welcomed all views on this discussion, as it did not pertain to a particular user, policy, RfA, etc. CycloneGU (talk) 15:22, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

I am agreeing with you. Strike out all views that are a threat to the very existence of Wikipedia. Fae is a trustee of WMUK. A resignation or a negative finding affects all of Wikipedia, not just one user. So strike out the vote of the IP. Here is the WMF decision. 31.52.2.164 (talk) 15:25, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

All editors including IPs are welcome to participate in RFCs - see Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment#Suggestions_for_responding. In this case it seems the IP may have simply made a mistake. Rereading that RFA the candidate's acceptance and half the opposes relate to the RFC and the former account, the RFC wasn't something teased out late in the RFA. But odd points get made in RFCs, I doubt if many people will endorse that Editor's view. ϢereSpielChequers 15:29, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

I oppose. The first step is censoring anons; the next step after this is the censoring of all comments by the WR users or anyone critical of Wikipedia. We shouldn't be censoring anyone. --Michaeldsuarez (talk) 15:39, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

Has this come to Godwin's law? Are you seriously comparing us to Nazis? You should retract that comment. Shrigley (talk) 15:49, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

I refuse to participate in self-censorship and political correctness simply because facts and honest discussions offend some people. Also, http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Censorship_of_Twitter&diff=473626202&oldid=465501034. --Michaeldsuarez (talk) 16:06, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

I agree...with Shrigley. I find myself offended by Michaeldsuarez's comment as this isn't about censoring. Users can create an account and become involved with the community all they want. Without doing so, they can still edit, but they should not be able to have participation in embarrassment of a user at an RfC. CycloneGU (talk) 15:54, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

Embarrassment is sometimes the byproduct of scrutiny, but scrutiny is goal here, not embarrassment. We shouldn't cease scrutinizing simply because scrutiny could lead to embarrassment. --Michaeldsuarez (talk) 16:11, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

As WereSpielChequers has already pointed out the guideline states: "All editors (including unregistered or IP users) are welcome to provide comment or opinion, and to assist in reaching agreements, by responding to requests for comment". Delicious carbuncle (talk) 16:12, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

I should clarify my stance. I don't argue so much with their general participation as I do with their ability to create their own viewpoints. For an IP user to create a viewpoint is beyond what I think should be permitted. It's like an IP user referring me or someone else to an RfA. CycloneGU (talk) 16:20, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

That would be an issue to raise re RFCs generally rather than specifically in this one. So I'd suggest that until and unless you get consensus to change the policies that allow IPs to participate in RFCs you refrain from criticising them for participating, by all means rebut their arguments as I and others have with the IP in question. But having one IP in one RFC submit an easily refuted statement doesn't discredit all IP involvement. ϢereSpielChequers 19:04, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

Not at all. Never did I suggest any and all IP involvement cannot be constructive. And yes, my thoughts are related to general RfC discussion and not really related specifically to this RfC; it just came to mind when I saw the comment. CycloneGU (talk) 19:26, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

Question for John Vandenberg about Fæ's request for adminship

During Fæ's RFA, John Vandenberg was asked about Fæ's previous account. He replied:

As I said to Balloonman below, there is no need to trust my judgement on the previous contribs. The only request I have is that you believe me when I say that a participant in the old RfC (the 'prior critic') is aware of the previous account, has looked at the new contribs and reviewed the old history, and has not rocked up here to oppose this RfA. In addition, I swear that the person I am referring to would be here, stridently opposing, if they thought it was in the best interest of the community and project. They are not a meek and mild type. Far from it. They are not here attesting to this themselves as that would make it simple to determine the name of the old account that Fæ used.

Now that the previous account(s) are known, there seems no reason not to reveal the identity of the editor with whom John Vandenberg consulted. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 16:29, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

That should be up the the editor in question. 16:31, 29 January 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nobody Ent (talk • contribs)

It should be noted that John has been alerted to this question. It will be his choice on whether to reveal this information, as Nobody Ent says. CycloneGU (talk) 16:37, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, I should have been more clear - this question is for John Vanderberg. If you are not John Vanderberg or the editor in question, it probably won't be helpful to post here. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 16:44, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

Helpful to whom? Nobody Ent 16:55, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

Ent...wait for John, please. CycloneGU (talk) 17:02, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

That would be user:lar, who was one of the certifiers endorsers on the prior RFC. John Vandenberg ^(chat) 17:55, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

Sir I truly wish you hadn't acquiesced the demands of DC in this thread. My76Strat (talk) 18:01, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

User:Lar was not one of the certifiers of the original RFC/U. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 18:03, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

Delicious carbuncle you are editing in violation of several Wikipedia policies. Your conduct is egregious to my understanding of propriety. Thankfully for you, I usually get it wrong. My76Strat (talk) 18:49, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

Sorry; I've corrected that. John Vandenberg ^(chat) 22:38, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

• - The comment from John was also, with hindsight, a bit misleading imo - at the time of the Fae accounts RFA, user Lar was close to retiring, he only edited on a few days after that - a bit of a dispute with Will be back and a sock issue and he was gone - there was little interest for him to bother commenting about this user - he was not particularly involved with the Ash or Fae accounts in any way as far as I can see - Lar never once posted on Ash or Fæ accounts talkpage and the Ash account never posted on Lar's talkpage. Fæ posted this single post, you have mail on lar's talkpage on the 6th of march 2011 - the fact that Lar didn't object was not the clear support that it was presented as. This piece of the comment from John seems especially opinionated and with hindsight a bit misleading at the time ..... I swear that the person I am referring to would be here, stridently opposing, (at the time User:Lar was almost inactive and on the verge of retirement) if they thought it was in the best interest of the community and project. (they were closing the door behind themselves, their interest in the good of the community and project was in all probability, close to zero) They are not a meek and mild type. Far from it. They are not here attesting to this themselves as that would make it simple to determine the name of the old account that Fæ used. (Lar could have commented support or delete if he was interested without revealing anything, his not commented could just as easily have been a total lack of interest) and the claimed (the 'prior critic') Lar was a minor player only - I was a bigger critic of the Ash account - nobody that made the edits the Ash account made should ever be an admin here, and they wouldn't ever have been either if they had connected themselves to their previous edit patterns and add to that , the return to a couple of similar issues (the user Ash would have made a better indefinitely blocked disrupting POV pusher than an admin) - that is user Ash (User:Benjiboi's muse) and that is Fae and you all have been kidded if you supported him. Youreallycan 18:53, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

And yet the community accepted the secrecy. I'm sorry. We KNEW this was a possibility/probability when the RfA occured. The community knew the risks and chose to promote him despite the lack of transparency. Idiocity? Yes. But the community decided then that it was ok. Negating said RfA because of issues that we could have forseen is not the proper recourse. I do not think Fae should have ever been promoted, but I do not believe we should negate the overwhelming support from a year ago unless we can show that he has abused the position and/or continued the issue since then...---Balloonman ^{Poppa Balloon} 02:02, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

NOte: I am not against actions related to actions taken since the RfA... but IMO we relinquished all rights to object over the process when 88% of the community chose to ignore the glaring warning signs that were present for all to see.---Balloonman ^{Poppa Balloon} 02:04, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

I think I'm starting to make sense of what you're saying here. Basically, yes, Fae/old account was up to no good. And if 'teh community', as it manifests itself specifically on the RfA page wasn't completely dysfunctional and moronic, it would have taken that into account. But it is. So two wrongs make a right and here we are now. One part of this is that RfA is insanely dysnfucntional and broken in more than ways than one. But this hasn't been news in like... at least two years. The other part is that you can't blame Fae/old account for gaming this dysfunctionality because it really is there for the taking. Ok. I can sort of see that argument. It's a depressing argument but there's some juice to it.VolunteerMarek 02:14, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

I think that is the best synopsis of my point imaginable ;-)---Balloonman ^{Poppa Balloon} 02:37, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

No, the community was not made aware that it was granting adminship to a user who evaded scrutiny by abandoning his account during an active RFC/U. That is not the same thing as a user with an RFC/U in his past deciding on a cleanstart. The community was misled. I am not speaking of actions taken on an old account, but rather of how on his current account he appears to have misrepresented his past. Do you really think that if he said he took the option of a cleanstart "during" an RFC/U, rather than "after", he would still have passed? ReverendWayne (talk) 05:17, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

I don't think he should have passed in the first place... but the community wanted to use Fae as an example of how forgiving it could be and how magnanimous it was. Any questions about the users past were shot down and rebuffed. (See my questions where I wanted some basic information to make an educated decision.) But beyond the refusal to answer, we had enough info that we as a community should have opposed. Fae acknowledged that there were people whom if they knew who he was and what he did would oppose him and that he didn't want his identity to be known because it would sabotogue his RfA. He acknowledged that if his former id had been known that it would have resulted in pile on opposes---but any attempt to get any information out about the RfC, it's timing, results, sanctions, subject matter, etc were all shot down. The RfA community utterly failed in this case by giving him a free pass. By failing to do it's job then, we've relinquished the moral right to question the results today. When I presented the fourth oppose, 96 people had already chimed in with supports without anybody raising any alarms---uttery pathetic. When the alarms were sounded the rate of supports slowed down (33 people supported after my oppose, 1 moved away from support, and 18 others opposed) but it was too little too late. Do I think his RfA would have failed if he revealed his identity a year ago? Of course I do---he told us it would---and despite his admission that it would fail if people knew what he had done and who he was, the community voted to promote by a margin of 5:1. We gave him a free ride. But the basic question for RfA, is do we trust the user not to abuse the tools or break the wiki? In his year since getting the tools, has he abused them? Has he used them in a way that merits removal? Hell, has he used them in a way that he promised he wouldn't in the RfA? (Eg in relationship to the participants involved in the RfCU?) If not, then I say we've given up the moral highroad when we allowed the farce to pass.---Balloonman ^{Poppa Balloon} 15:43, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

I have to say, I agree with most of your comments Balloonman, and with Marek's synoposis - Youreallycan 15:58, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

The community did make a bad decision, however it was misled in a number of ways. I can't see where Fae admitted his RfA would be sabotaged if his identity was known, however I can see this statement by John Vandenberg: "Had Fæ disclosed their prior account here at RfA, no doubt there would be a few people who opposed due to the prior history, but I doubt that they would number more than the number of people who are opposing now due to the fact that they can't see the prior history." Fae also stated "I spoke privately with one of the critical contributors ... and we have resolved our concerns", however User:Lar was not one of his main critics. Fae also claimed to have made the clean start after the RFC, rather than during. Epbr123 (talk) 16:27, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

• Regarding Youreallycan's "muse" comment: it's not impossible for an editor to make positive contributions in general to Wikipedia while making some questionable edits in a specific area. The recently discovered sock of Mantamoreland, User:ScottyBerg, behaved exactly like this. There are still some who think this account was blocked unjustly because only a small fraction of his 12K edits were in the controversial articles. See Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Arbitration Committee 3. ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 09:19, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

• I got a bit carried away with my too long comment and that muse comment was a bit undue - so I have struck it. - Youreallycan 15:51, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

Who dispatched the bot?

I'd like to know who requested user:MadmanBot to deliver such a large volume of notifications and what criteria defined the list? My76Strat (talk) 19:01, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

See Wikipedia_talk:Requests_for_comment/Fæ#Of_note and BOTREQ. MBisanz ^talk 19:05, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

Thank you. My76Strat (talk) 19:09, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

Brenneman's certification

Apologies to all and sundry. I've helped with midwiffery on something ugly, and failed to read the instructions on it to boot. I'd forgotten that request for comments were not typically just discussions about conduct, but something of a struggle session.

• I commented because I had been involved with a bit of a BLP issue with Fæ, and wanted to make it clear that I didn't see the problem as being an ongoing one.
• I chose to tacitly ignore the "Ash" business because it had no bearing on my experience. (I still don't know anything about that user, and haven't looked.)

Not sure now how to proceed, as it was just coincidence that I saw this RfC. Really, if I'm going to be active again it's going to be doing Medieval technology, not stuff like this.
Aaron Brenneman (talk) 04:05, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

Hi Aaron, the tricky thing here is whether the RFC is invalid for lack of an attempt at dispute resolution, and at the moment you are one of the three editors who signed that there was one. If you had a problem with Fae, tried to resolve it on his talkpage but feel the problem needs escalation then all we need is for you to give diffs showing the attempt at dispute resolution. If you can't evidence that then I'd suggest you strike out your certification of this RFC. ϢereSpielChequers 12:34, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

It appears he had a dispute with the editor, and engaged in discourse with that editor about the dispute. It is therefore a tad improper to insist he do something to "decertify" what appears to be an active RFC/U which is not tainted by CANVASS or other issues that I can see. And, in fact, it is not necessary that he be concerned about "Ash" unless we maintain a fiction that having a dispute with "fae" is unrelated to any RFC/U on "ash". I would note, moreover, that the current person named in the title is, indeed, "Fae". Cheers. Collect (talk) 12:39, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

I think Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive712#Admin_conduct_review_requested and the note from John Vandenberg [18] do qualify as attempts for dispute resolution of Fæ's behavior. There was a content RfC on the article's talk page as well. It's difficult to separate conduct from content when the dispute is rooted in the use of certain sources anyway. I don't see Fæ engaging much in either case; in the first, xe disputed the venue, so several editors suggested a RfC/U in that ANI discussion. Replies by email [19] are not listed as the appropriate venues for WP:DR concerning edits. Since John Vandenberg claims his effort was successful [20], perhaps Fæ admitted some editing issues, or perhaps not. We can't be sure because of the continuous evasion of on-wiki dispute resolution by Fæ regarding own edits. Again we have to take an Arbitrator's word for something that can be plainly answered on-wiki by the main disputant. ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 17:00, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

Update. Today, Fæ has made an on-wiki statement about this issue on their own talk page [21]. ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 17:41, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

It actually needs multiple users to certify that they attempted to resolve the same dispute and failed. As far as I can see, we do not have this, the matters to which DC draws attention pertaining to Fae have not been subject to any attempts to resolve dispute (apart form some tidying by people drawn by this putative RFC). For that reason I have delisted this page from the user list, although Tarc has reverted without notifying me (Edit summary "Not your call to make"?). Rich Farmbrough, 18:55, 30 January 2012 (UTC).

I would say delisting at this time is disruptive and detrimental to community process. Hair splitting over the certification at this late stage when from the discussion here and the amount of commenters, there is clearly an issue to resolve. The issues people have are more likely to get resolved by allowing the RFC to continue, rather than forcing its closure now will. Youreallycan 18:59, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

I am unable to fathom why some Wikipedia editors' first reactions to anything contentious is to try to bury it. As I very clearly stated in the RFC/U itself, I have re-opened a dormant RFC/U, not started a new one. That original RFC/U was certified and remains so. Where were all of these opinions about RFC/Us when I was attempting to gather input on WP:AN? Delicious carbuncle (talk) 19:09, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

I think that misses the point. Some of us see nothing contentious here except an attempt to re-open old wounds. The fact that to do this you are prepared to take the steps for which you have been roundly condemned at AN/I, that you back it up with the exceptionally weak diffs from the Fae account that you use, do speak to this being other than a disinterested attempt at dispute resolution. There is not even a clear statement of what the dispute or disputes are. Since Fae is not defending Ash's sourcing (or other actions) there is no ongoing dispute with Ash - and there seems to be no dispute with Fae. If there is an ongoing dispute that can't be resolved then better tell us what it is. Rich Farmbrough, 19:41, 30 January 2012 (UTC).

Rich Farmbrough, the dispute was defined by the certifiers to be Ash/Fæ's edits to multiple BLPs mostly about porn sourcing. I don't think this is an unreasonable construction of a dispute. Not even John Vandenberg disputed the relationship of the Steffens dispute with those immediately prior to the "clean start". ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 19:35, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

Steffans was not listed explicitly a locus by DC, only by Brennerman, who said that he thought the dispute resolution was successful, John Vandenberg concurs. Rich Farmbrough, 19:43, 30 January 2012 (UTC).

I see that Aaron Brenneman has "uncertified" the RfC/U today [22] That's a new development. I see that on ANI he was even more explicit now supporting the deletion of this page [23]. ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 20:47, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

Question for Delicious carbuncle

Delicious carbuncle, as a personal request, could you please clearly explain what you would find an acceptable outcome here to cease creating any more discussions about me off-wiki where people are posting my professional details and that of my civil parter while making allegations that appear to be of adultery, paedophilia, fraud and repeating the details of threats against me made elsewhere? I am sure you have no deliberate intention of harassing me, but these seem to be the facts of what is happening based on my reading of the material. My question is genuine as I find many of the allegations frightening and could do with your help. --Fæ (talk) 16:13, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

Fæ, as I said in response to this same question at ANI, I hope you will understand why, after countless accusations of harassment from both Ash and your current account (the latest literally minutes before you posed this question), I doubt the sincerity of your statement "I am sure you have no deliberate intention of harassing me". If you or your partner are being harassed in real life in any way, I suggest you contact the police with the details. If it needs to be said, I do not condone this. As far as Wikipedia Review goes, I do not speak for them in any way, shape, or form and have no control over what happens there, any more than I have over what happens here. If you find specific threads or posts to be threatening, I suggest you contact one of the WR moderators, who have the power to delete threads or remove them from public view. I do not believe that there are any serious allegations of adultery, fraud, or paedophilia to be found there. I would ask you to post links to the specific charges, but I know you will not. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 16:32, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

The thread you created to discuss my RFC/U includes "But putting pictures up of naked little boys is the glorification of paedophilia and children cannot CONSENT to having photographs taken of them like that...", which was posted yesterday. As my professional details are being analysed and links to my profile and contact details before that, I find comments like these especially frightening on a permanent public forum as they are likely to encourage further threats or attacks in the long term. Regardless of any Wikipedia processes, please do explain what you want me to do in order for you to stop. Thanks --Fæ (talk) 16:45, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

I have question for "Fae." Why did you think it was appropriate to put the image of a naked, somewhat sexualized, adolescent on your userpage?Bali ultimate (talk) 16:47, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

I think you are talking about something from 3 years ago when a photograph from the 1890s was used. Even though the photograph has historical interest, being well over 100 years old, I would not encourage anyone to put such images in their userspace unless there were a clear educational rationale. I know much more now about the appropriate use of images in context having been involved in a number of policy discussions since then, and would consider such an action a mistake. I would ask any user promoting such images in a way that might cause offence to other users to re-consider, though there are not yet any clear policies on the matter. Something I tried to rectify when I started a recent Commons discussion on this topic in order to improve the userspace policy there. --Fæ (talk) 16:57, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

I'm interested to know how the "mistake" was made. Why do you now think it was inappropriate, when you didn't then? For anyone interested, this is the NSFW image in question: [24]Bali ultimate (talk) 17:00, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

The mistake was my understanding of what is acceptable behaviour on Wikimedia projects. I have learned a lot since my clean start, back then I did not know what chapters were and was ignorant of most of our policies. I unreservedly apologise for many mistakes I made only a few years ago but moving on was part of the reason that I thought that a clean start was a good idea. I believe my work since my clean start in improving Wikimedia projects and preserving open knowledge shows that people can move on.

I do not believe that outing me or posting material to ridicule me off-wiki helps to change Wikimedia projects in the way you would like to see. I am not a lackey of the WMF and have challenged many of their approaches. If you take time to examine more carefully the results I am aiming for by spending so much of my unpaid volunteer time with the projects, you would see that I truly do stand for the values of preserving open knowledge in a way that preserves respect for the cultural heritage involved. I do not have any other "secret" agenda. --Fæ (talk) 17:30, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

Just to correct the record, Fæ, here is a link to an archived copy of the User:Ash user page including the adolescent nude image from 17 March 2010, which is just shortly before you stopped using that account, not "3 years ago". Your comments above may lead some to assume that your attitude towards such things changed prior to the creation of User:Fæ. If that were to be the case, surely the image would not have remained on the user page? Delicious carbuncle (talk) 18:06, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, you are correct, I was going from my mistaken memory rather than checking the page history. I did wipe out most of the page including this image as part of my clean start. Thanks Fæ (talk) 18:13, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

In fact, the page was deleted on 25 March 2010, which was three days before you created the Fæ account. At that time, I think you knew my intention to start the original RFC/U. Your change of heart on controversial images was conveniently timed, to say the least. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 18:37, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

As explained in my RFA, my clean start included a lot of maintenance edits. I did not have a change of heart on controversial images overnight, moving on was a gradual process as you might expect. Thanks for the clarifications. Fæ (talk) 18:56, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

Fæ, as you surely know, I did not make that comment. While I do not read that comment to mean that the person who made is saying that you are a paedophile, I am loathe to provide the context of the comment because it is likely not something you wish to have discussed here. I am not sure what you mean by "explain what you want me to do in order for you to stop". Do you mean to "stop" the "harassment" that you are sure I have "no deliberate intention" of doing? If so, I am not sure how to answer such a question without seeming to admit culpability in something. At the same time, there is an RFC/U in progress in which many editors have participated. I would not wish to influence your actions in regard to that by expressing an opinion of how I think you should respond to that. And again, you have a habit of associating statements made by others with my username - please stop making such associations, I am not responsible for the words or actions of others. Thanks. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 17:16, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

I would like to know what is needed for you to stop creating discussions about me off-wiki, I believe that creating so many of these discussions has attracted a lot of unwelcome attention and probably resulted in the threat against me and my husband. I do not blame you for using such an outlet if you are frustrated with the Wikimedia projects, but the result has been to frighten me and my partner with the nature of the allegations and threats we have seen, I admit that you may not have been able to predict these results and they may not have been in any way under your control. This RFC/U might close in a way that you remain unhappy with, I would not like to see that as a reason to you to choose to create several more discussions about me and my civil partner which are likely to continue the problems we have seen. Thanks --Fæ (talk) 17:30, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

Fae, as I see there are thirty nine editors that includes ten administrators, that object to your RFA and would like you to submit yourself for another one with full openness. - Is that sufficient to activate your recall? Youreallycan 17:39, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

Point of order, the view supported by Themfromspace indicates that there are 39 editors who do not believe that his RfA would have passed if the full story had been known at the time of the RfA. The view does not require or request that he step down or resign or undergo a reconfirm RfA. Some of us said as much a year ago during the RfA.

The RfA was faulty, but the community bought into it and accepted it with 128 people supporting it despite its irregularities. The community accepted John's word that things were as presented and that the issues weren't sufficeint to dig further. The community chose to ignore the holes in his past. The RfA Community and ArbCOM/John failed to excercise due dilligence. Barring evidence that he has abused his position/misused the tools, I see no reason for him to step down. (And I was the most vocal voice of opposition to this RfA.)---Balloonman ^{Poppa Balloon} 19:09, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

Yes -as you were a single voice then you are the same now, just you are on different sides of the fence. - this is not about you. - There are currently thirty nine users that object to the users previous RFA, ten of them are Administrators - that is a lot of good faith opposition to his current admin status - Youreallycan 21:35, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

This actually has me chuckling. You mischaracterize the results of what you can deduce from ThemFromSpaces' view. His view does not make any mention of reconfirmation/resignation/etc. The fact that his RfA would have failed if all the facts were known is something some of us argued a year ago. That does not by definition mean a new rfa/resignation is required today. Luckily we do have two views that are explicitly calling for him to resign/stepdown---Secret's view has 4 supporters and MyStrat's view which has 9. Not overwhelming numbers. We also have Hobit's view which is explicitly stating that irregularities in the RfA, are not in and of themselves sufficeint grounds to demand a recall. There are what, 25 !votes supporting that explicit view---hardly sounds like I'm a lone voice.---Balloonman ^{Poppa Balloon} 21:55, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

Hobit

There is nothing for you to chuckle about you have been biggin up yourself - as , I was the major opponent and now I am a supporter position - but you are only one person - that is the issue - you are not the focus - Its undeniable that forty users are opposed to what happened at the RFA - ten of them are administrators - and their objexctions are worthwhile and should not be rejected because you have changed your mind. Youreallycan 22:28, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

Perhaps I'm missing the line where the people who endorse Themfromspace's view where the view calls for the resignation/recall of Fae. Let's look at it:

Ash quit under a cloud, with an active user RFC containing serious allegations about reliable sources and BLPs. If Fae really is Ash, ArbCom erred greatly in letting him stand for adminship without disclosing his past account to the community. With full transparency, its very likely the RfA wouldn't have passed.

Nope, I do not see anything about Themfromspace's view calling for a recall. What I do see, is what I endorsed and what I said a year ago---that if the history was known that the RfA would have probably failed. So please, stop claiming that Themfromspace's view is calling for him to step down. It does not.---Balloonman ^{Poppa Balloon} 23:05, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

And oh yeah, I am one of the people who objected to what happened in that RfA. I think it was a complete farce. But not because of what John/Ash/Fae did, but rather because the community abrogated its responsibility to do anything.

It's like a job interview, a job candidate comes in admits that he had a brush with law, but has changed. Rather than discussing the particulars about the brush with the law, the job candidate produces a letter from a respected member of the community saying that the candidate has changed/grown. The interviewer, rather than doing due dilligence accepts the view of the respected member of the community, fails to dig into the candidates past, and hires him.

Fault is not on the job candidate when his crime is discovered; it is on the hiring manager who failed to dig into the case. If you now fire the person for something they disclosed during the interview process, that person now can sue for wrongful termination. Culpability lies with the people who promoted without digging for the whole story. If you want to get rid of Fae now, show that he has abused the tools/position. So far, I haven't seen that. All I've seen is an attempt to negate the past RfA. Was that RfA wrought with problems, yell yeah, but the community chose to ignore them.---Balloonman ^{Poppa Balloon} 23:12, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

At some point editors may start to find the "I told you so"s annoying. 28bytes (talk) 23:15, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

lying on resume/interview Nobody Ent 23:18, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

Lying can, but refusing to say anything? If you reveal a past transgression and the hiring manager fails to follow up, that is the hiring manager's fault. "When did you first learn that the candidate had a run in with the law?" "During the interview." Accepting a candidate after a infraction is known becomes acceptance of the stance.---Balloonman ^{Poppa Balloon} 23:27, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

That's bullshit, the lack of due diligence would not magically absolve the person of the crime committed. Yes, we as a community should have pressed him for an identity reveal at the RfA, but the fact remains that a bad editor snuck through with a new face to become an administrator. Regardless of how we, collectively, arrived at that point, it must be rectified. Tarc (talk) 23:32, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

No, but it changes the parameters. If you want to get rid of him as an admin, show how he has abused the tools or his position since being promoted? I am at the front of the line when it comes to saying that RfA/ArbCOM utterly failed in its duty a year ago. The community should not have promoted him, but they chose to ignore/absolve him of his crimes. The community failed in its job. They are upset because the process a year ago was a farce, but that is old news.

Now we've now had a year to review his work as an admin. Has he abused the tools? Has he abused his title? Has he done anything to which removal of the bit is required? If so, let's see the evidence and get him out of the position. The bar to get people to jump is ridiculously low, but so far nobody is attacking him for what he's done over the past year.---Balloonman ^{Poppa Balloon} 00:02, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

No, it doesn't change the parameters, I do not care one whit about what he has done under the name of "Fae" in the project. Coming back under false pretenses is the only bar that needs to be met. Tarc (talk) 16:06, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

The problem is that we knew that when we promoted him. When the community voted by a margin of 5:1, we knew that there was an issue that incurred an RfC that we couldn't get any information on. The community turned a blind eye to that (including several of the people who are now bitching about it.) It would be an entirely different story if he had hidden this fact or spun a tale, but he refused to talk about it. But the community knew the issue was there and blindly accepted him none theless.---Balloonman ^{Poppa Balloon} 23:31, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

One interpretation is the community knew of the situation and failed to exercise due diligence. Another (mine) is that Fae was not truthful about the temporal relationship between the so-called restart and the RFC/U, so the information has now is different than it did then. Nobody Ent 02:22, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

I don't necessarily dispute that either... but 1) how often do people run for RfA hoping that somebody doesn't find something that if it were known might torpedo their chances? I suspect it is more common than we might think (3 years ago I used to be the Super Opposer at RfA's and I often found hidden little secrets.) 2) He wasn't truthful... hmmm... it is still the communities fault for not delving into the issue. The community chose to accept his word and John's word on the subject. Even if the RfA was somewhat misleading, the community failed to excercise due diligence. We had the info we needed a year ago to reject him; but we promoted. So the question becomes, has he been trustworthy/responsible with the tools? If the answer is yes, then that basically becomes the reason people should be particular with the bit in the first place---can the person be trusted not to abuse the tools?---Balloonman ^{Poppa Balloon} 00:53, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

I do not wish to sound unsympathetic, but I have already explained above why I am unwilling to address that question here. I am reminded that shortly before you claimed to leave Wikipedia as User:Ash, you similarly made references to fears for your safety. I was unable to establish the nature or location of the threats at that time. For the sake of clarity, can you confirm that the "threat against me and my husband" is the anonymous comment made on your user page on Commons during your RfA there? Delicious carbuncle (talk) 17:45, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

Please refer to Wikipedia_talk:Requests_for_comment/Fæ#Personal_attacks. --Fæ (talk) 11:16, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

rewind

• Pushes Rewind - Unfortunately - for better or for worse - I do not think any of this has really helped the matter of this RfC. I agree with one thing Balloonman says: that there are 26 (at the time he wrote, 25) users supporting the views of Hobit. Any view that suggests a reconfirmation RfA has not gained anywhere near that much favour even if the RfA itself is tainted in the first place; the majority of the supporters of that view do not support a reconfirmation RfA. So what else exactly is to be gained from this other than possible changes to RfA rules? There is no strong-enough call for a resignation, and ArbCom surely will not suggest it. CycloneGU (talk) 00:18, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

  Reopen the original RfA then, don't allow any new votes, just permit those who did participate change theirs if they desire. Or dump it in Arbcom's lap for a straight-up desysop discussion. Simply allowing this person to continue on with a tainted admin bit should not be an option on the table. Tarc (talk) 16:14, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

  It's not "tainted" though, is it? The voters at RfA knew there was a previous account, and chose to support Fae on the merits of his edits under that account, and nobody has presented a shred of evidence (despite multiple requests for it) to suggest that Fae has abused his position as an administrator. We as a community can't appoint an administrator, knowing full well that they edited under a previous account that was the subject of an RfC/U, and then seek to take the bit back after a year of good admin work, because he edited under a previous account that was the subject of an RfC/U. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 16:30, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

• What happened shouldn't have happened, but if Fae hasn't abused the admin tools etc. since then, then there's not really any justification for a desysop. Pesky (talk …stalk!) 18:43, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

• Abusing the tools isn't the only justification for a desysoping an admin. Several admins have been desysoped in the past for other reasons. Epbr123 (talk) 19:19, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

• To HJ Mitchell...yes, it is tainted. "Ash" left the project in the midst of an RfC that was heading towards a ban on BLP editing, then returned as "Fae". I think if I voted for Reagan in 1980 but later found out it was really Richard Nixon in disguise, I'd be a tad bit put out. Tarc (talk) 20:10, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

  But if he told you he was a former president in disguise, I don't see how you could really blame anyone but yourself for your vote... Hobit (talk) 22:48, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

  Now you're bending my already-silly analogy to unsustainable lengths. The matter is simple; Ash left the project in disgrace, returned as someone else, told everyone that he was someone else at one time, but not who. That last part is the only part that I am concerned with; if the "who" had been revealed, this person would almost certainly not be an administrator now. Tarc (talk) 23:10, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

  And any sane reasonable person should have opposed because he didn't reveal his identity. Common sense says that when presented with a "already-silly analogy to unsustainable lengths" that people will act rationally. They didnt'. The community had an opportunity to insist on the "Who" a year ago... 28 of us cried for it, but 128 said, it didn't matter and promoted anyways. They promoted knowing they didn't know who. Was it dumb? Foolish? Yes. But we accepted the fact that we didn't know who and a 'crat promoted (per the perponderance of support.)

  "but but but I didn't realize who it was" or "the rfa was misleading" or "I didn't know that"... guess what, I suspect that a lot of RfA's go through the process hoping somebody doesn't find the one time they were in an edit war, or the one time they were disrespectful, or the one time that... I say that as one of the toughest RfA reviewers from a few years ago. Talk to the old timers and they will tell you that I found dirt on a lot of people that nobody else did. If we reopen this rfa because we feel like we've missed something, then we open the door on a lot more.---Balloonman ^{Poppa Balloon} 23:31, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

  Oh, I agree on the silly, but I think the analogy holds. Shouldn't one only support a "known-to-be-disguised" candidate if one would support anyone who could be in that disguise? Hobit (talk) 23:45, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

  Replying to Balloonman - Going with what was said here, there are many administrators who would not be administrators today for various reasons if their RfAs ran today. Criteria have become pickier and harder to meet, per se, for administrative hopefuls to successfully pass. It's remarkable that Fæ's passed. Can we reverse it now? No. Has reason been given (and proven) to warrant desysoping on the ENGLISH Wikipedia (not Commons or anywhere else)? In my opinion, no. CycloneGU (talk) 00:11, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

  re to Balloonman. RFA has to fit into the context of the rest of our policies, and those policies don't require "Cleanstart" candidates to declare their former accounts when they run at RFA. It recommends they do so, but it doesn't require it, and if someone goes through Cleanstart and is careful not to link their old and new accounts we have no mechanism or policy to prevent their running at RFA with an undisclosed former account. If people blanket oppose anyone who admits to having a former account that they don't wish to publicly disclose, then my assumption is that some good candidates won't run, and other candidates will simply not mention their former accounts. I'd prefer that RFA candidates who've gone through Cleanstart do what Fae did, rather than what Fae didn't do and run without mentioning their former account. But for more people to be comfortable with the situation then I think we need to agree some sort of statute of limitations - how many months or years of editing does a Cleanstart editor need to have before previous issues can be disregarded. At the moment we have a de facto 12 months as per Fae's RFA, and the fact that 12 months is pretty much the minimum experience of successful RFAs inn recent years. Personally I'd like something a bit more sophisticated - there are some things where I'd want more than 12 months and some where I'd rather they never run. But how would we achieve that in a community based on pseudonymous editing? ϢereSpielChequers 09:27, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

  WCS---I've never called for a blanket oppose per clean start, in fact both now and a year ago, I said that clean starts can be valid for a number of reasons. In this case, we had plenty of issues that should have shied people away from voting support. E.g. no clue as to the nature, timing, or outcome of the clean start. Had Fae run today, I don't think his past would be an issue---two years of relatively clean editing. Even had he said I had a negative RfC under an old account, people would have been justified in being forgiving. The problem with Fae's Clean Start, is taht we couldn't check it out to see if he had changed the behaviors that invoked the original RfCU. People who voted support in the first RfC were thus relying solely upon John's word---which is carelessness. Not to besmirch John, but generally we haven't 100% trusted any single reviewer at RfA.---Balloonman ^{Poppa Balloon} 23:47, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

  Hi Balloonman, I suspect that in future such scenarios we may well find that the RFA community expects at least a two year gap since an incident that they don't know about, as opposed to an incident we can all look at. In my view that would delay the occasional good candidate, but if those who've changed their mind about Fae now that we know the previous account are going to be more cautious in future then we need to be realistic about that. In this particular case though we knew there was a clean blocklog there could have been a string of level 4 warnings for various things. My own rule of thumb has long been that few things are so egregious that I would oppose over them more than 12 months later, not least because people can pass with 12 months edits, and per cleanstart they can run at RFA without telling anyone about the prior account. However there are clearly others who take a very different view, some like you who opposed at the time, others who supported then but are likely to be more cautious in the future. So if we are going to advise editors in future scenarios, what would you think of a rule of thumb that said The community rarely opposes over issues that it can look at and that are over 12 months ago. If you have undergone Cleanstart, declared your prior account to Arbcom but don't want to reveal it in your RFA then the community expects 18 months uncontentious editing since the events of your prior account if your prior account had a clean blocklog. and any blocks that you are not disclosing per cleanstart need to be at least 24 months editing ago. That would give cleanstart candidates an incentive to disclose their prior account, or not undertake Cleanstart in the first place, whilst also giving those who do choose Cleanstart an indication as to how long they hold off before submitting an RFA. I suspect that if Fae had simply not mentioned the former account when he ran for RFA then there would be far more pressure on him to resign the mop. All this rather begs the question, one of these years we will discover an admin who has run at RFA and chosen not to disclose a former account despite being "strongly recommended" to at least inform Arbcom. Doubtless some will ask them to resign despite their having followed policy. What do you think we should do in that scenario? ϢereSpielChequers 00:21, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

  Had Fae not mentioned his previous account, I don't think anybody would be defending him---there would be a strong groundswell to resign or be pushed out the door. That being said, I don't think the above is necessarily accurate. The question becomes, why was there a cleanstart? If the clean start was because the person messed up, had an RfCU, or other isses that might be red flags, then yes, I 100% agree that 2 years would be the minimum to get support. Had Fae waited 2 years before running, I would not have opposed. At the other end of the spectrum, I see no reason to make a qualified candidate wait 18 months to run when they had a clean start due to harrassment, real life outting, etc. IF the user came in and said, "I had a clean start 12 months ago because I didn't want to use my real name" and ArbCOM came in and said, "The user was a user in good standing and as far as we can tell had never had a major issue and did have a clean start because they were using their real life name" then I would be comfortable with simply reviewing the past year. (I rarely object over issues a year or more old... the main reason why I objected with Fae is because we couldn't review his edits to see if the issue which brought about the RfCU was still a concern or not.)---Balloonman ^{Poppa Balloon} 05:31, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

  The difficulty we have here is that if someone has undergone cleanstart because they were using their real name or indeed they were harassed then it would be a mistake for them to admit that in an RFA as it would greatly narrow down who they might be. Fae was quite careful not to narrow down his previous account further than that it was the subject of an RFC, had a clean blocklog and wasn't one particular former editor. I don't know if that contributed to his being tracked down, but I wonder how many cleanstarts we've had where the previous account was a well behaved real name account? However I suppose a simple rule of "if you've had a cleanstart don't run an RFA if you've edited with the old account in the last two years" would at least mean that any such editors knew where they stood. After this incident I suspect any sensible arb would hesitate before doing the sort of review that JV did, which I think a pity because I would prefer such a system to one where we tell people to wait two years then treat all as absolved. But I feel there is quite a strong disdain for the "vetting by a trusted editor" route. ϢereSpielChequers 19:36, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

Balloonman seems to have taken the position that Fæ passed his RfA despite the red flags of an undisclosed past account and mention of an RFC/U, and it is too late to do anything about that now. He and others here seem to be missing the fact that Fæ avoided likely sanctions in the Ash RFC/U being pretending to leave Wikipedia. I believe that the comments made by Fæ in his RfA were deceptive. I also believe that the community thought that ArbCom had vetted and sanctioned the candidacy when they had not, although it is unclear what Fæ had been told by ArbCom members. Admins are given the trust of the community - are these the actions of someone who inspires your trust? Delicious carbuncle (talk) 03:17, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/Ash#Desired_outcome's proposed sanction was a voluntary agreement that Ash would not edit BLPs. Cleanstart requires a commitment to change editing behaviour. Now I could point out that a beach is not a BLP, but I think we have here an area where people are going to disagree, if you consider that Ash was problematic in his edits of gay pornstars then the RFC did its job, as Fae has stayed clear of that topic. If you consider that his Cleanstart only counts as after the RFC if he fully complied with the "desired outcome" and avoided all BLPs then you are going to be less happy. My view is that in hindsight it was an unusually successful RFC, as the core problem was almost totally solved. Of course this would all have been a lot smoother if Ash had promised A To avoid the topic of Gay porn and B to be clear when he was adding a fact that he wasn't providing a source for. Better still to avoid the topic of pornography and agree only to add BLP facts where he had a reliable inline citation. If 22 months ago Ash had responded to the RFC by saying "BLP is a bit wide, but how about I agree to avoid the topic of gay pornstars?", then much angst would have been avoided.

As for Arbcom's role in that RFA, my understanding now and at the time was that one Arb had vetted the prior account and told us what he told us, the rest of Arbcom were aware of the situation and one of them also chose to Support. But this was vetting by an individual person who happens to be an Arb, not a collective Arbcom decision after all Arbs had examined the issue. People may remember this as an Arbcom endorsed decision, but memory can pay tricks; we've also had people who were convinced that this was the RFA where the candidate said they couldn't disclose their former account because it would cause their RFA to fail. If you reread the FA you will see that it was quite clear - One Arb vetted the account, all Arbs had been informed of the identity of the Account. On that basis 15% opposed, roughly evenly divided between those who were concerned that the candidates CSD tagging implied they would be overly deletionist, and those who weren't prepared to accept the secrecy. Several of the opposers alleged that the candidate's motive for secrecy was that if we knew the former account the RFA would fail. But they didn't convince the other 85% of us - they didn't even convince all those who opposed the RFA.

I was part of the discussions about the Cleanstart policy Wikipedia talk:Sock puppetry/Archive 7, and I was one of the editors arguing for disclosure to Arbcom rather than to a Checkuser. Which is one of the reasons why I paid attention to how that worked out in Fae's RFA. I still think that Cleanstart and getting an Arb to verify a hidden account is the least worst solution available to us, but I can appreciate that the next time someone is in Fae's position they may choose simply not to disclose the existence of their former account. ϢereSpielChequers 12:51, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

WereSpielChequers, you seem to be focusing on the particular issue of BLPs of gay porn performers. I drew attention to it in my second statment in the RFC/U, not to imply that it was the issue, but to remind people of how disruptive the Ash account was. You speculate that if Ash had agreed to avoid BLPs of gay porn performers, the original RFC/U would have been resolved. I do not agree, but it is a moot point since that did not happen. The facts in this case are simple. An RFC/U was started to address concerns about the edits of User:Ash. That RFC/U did not reach its conclusion because User:Ash claimed that they had left Wikipedia. The RFC/U was delisted (not closed) due to the inactivity of User:Ash. Meanwhile, the user had already created a new account and begun editing as User:Fæ. (Editors who believe that this was in accordance with WP:CLEANSTART should read that policy more carefully and perhaps take a closer look at Ash's edits in the overlap period.) User:Fæ made both false and misleading statements in their RfA in reference to the dormant RFC/U and their past accounts. Those are the facts. Your attempt to spin this may well distract editors from the logical conclusion that Fæ created a new account to avoid sanctions in the original RFC/U, but there appears to be enough upset caused by the misleading statements in the RfA that this may not matter. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 16:16, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

@WereSpielChequers, regarding "People may remember this as an Arbcom endorsed decision", I think it's worth nothing that apparently Fæ remembers it this way too: "Arbcom has details of my history before clean start and made a statement in support of my Wikipedia RFA." Note the "Arbcom", not "an arbitrator". 28bytes (talk) 20:56, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

If I was Fae I would have put that as "Arbcom has details of my history before clean start and an Arb made a statement in support of my Wikipedia RFA." But what matters here is not how people remembered the details of an RFA several months later, but whether there was a misunderstanding at the time. I've seen several statements in this RFC that don't stack up when you check the RFA. But on my rereading of it it was clear that All Arbs knew the former account name and one Arb checked both Fæ and Ash's contributions. That was the basis on which the RFA succeeded. ϢereSpielChequers 00:04, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

For what it is worth, John Vandenberg actually made an explicit statement in the RfA that he was not speaking for ArbCom and that ArbCom was not endorsing Fæ: "My comment in regards to the disclosure is in a personal capacity only. The fact that ArbCom knows of the prior account is simply that; there is no seal of approval that accompanies this". By this point, there were 70 support votes and the damage of Fæ's misleading statement had already been done. Anyone who wishes to know what Fæ was told at the time should read this recent discussion between him and John Vandenberg. I believe that the community misunderstood ArbCom's involvement in the RfA, but the source of that misunderstanding was Fæ's statement. It is not clear to me whether Fæ themself misunderstood ArbCom's role, but John Vandenberg's recent statements make it quite clear that he told Fæ very plainly that he was not speaking for ArbCom in any capacity. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 03:38, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

I have zero doubt that the community misunderstood ArbCOM's role---or more exactly John's review either. John may have made that statement, but nobody from ArbCOM spoke up denouncing Fae's understanding. John so put his name and IMO reputation on the line when he vigorously defended Fae saying that we would have to trust him. The conversation on Fae's page, looks somewhat like back pedalling on John's part because the fact remains that people trusted that John had done the review that he indicated in the RfA. The majority of the community accepted John's review without question and chose to promote. It failed in its job. The thing I noted from the Fae/John conversation on Fae's page, is that Fae felt that he presented the facts as he understood it and was not informed otherwise until this week.---Balloonman ^{Poppa Balloon} 05:17, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

Balloonman, you said "nobody from ArbCOM spoke up denouncing Fae's understanding", immediately after I quoted John Vandenberg (of ArbCom) making a statement which is directly addressing Fae's insinuation that ArbCom vetted his candidacy. The thing I noted about the recent conversation is Vandenberg's statements that Fae should have been aware of the situation at the time because he was informed by Vandenberg. It may have been a genuine misunderstanding, or just another example of Fae's dissembling. I do not know, but your statements with regard to ArbCom are incorrect. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 12:33, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

And you misrepresented the quote. John was not denouncing Fae's understanding. John was responding to Pedro who indicated that he didn't trust John and thus had some questions about John providing the "arbcom seal of approval." John responded that he wasn't and that he spoke on his own behalf, but that there was a better reason to trust that Fae had changed---the at the time unidentified participant of the RFCU who hadn't spoken up who (as described by John) was a trusted member, very senior, and outspoken. In other words, John was not saying, "Don't rely on my statement as an Arb" or "my stance has been misrepresented"; he was saying, "Ok, I'm speaking personally, but you should feel comfortable supporting because this unnamed critic of Fae's hasn't opposed." Completely different context.---Balloonman ^{Poppa Balloon} 16:37, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

The significance of it being an Arb is that they have identified to the office, we had a problem in a similar situation in the past where we used a "trusted editor" who turned out to be an unnoticed banned user. It seemed clear to me then and now that JV was speaking as an Arb not speaking for Arbcom. The other Arbs knew the identity of the former account and at least one of them supported, though without saying whether they had reviewed both accounts or just the current one. I took comfort in that at the time, perhaps others did also. If another arb had opposed saying it was too soon since the RFC had been filed then I would have been very likely to oppose or at least go neutral. But they didn't and JV's judgement suited me - Fae has turned out to be a good admin. ϢereSpielChequers 19:17, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

Any genuine admin issues?

So far I haven't seen any actual allegation that Fae misused his actual admin status. I said as much in a comment, to which Delicious carbuncle responded by citing [25]. But that link is just more about user-level discussions and actions as far as I can tell. I don't see the logic of revoking admin status for someone when there's not even an accusation that the admin blocked someone who shouldn't have been blocked, protected an article in a biased way, etc. If the problems, if they exist at all, are all problems that he would have as not-an-admin, what point can there be in taking away admin powers? Wnt (talk) 00:26, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

There are those any that feel that Fae's use or misuse of admin tools is not at all relevant to the problem; the problem is the deception caused by the person behind the administrator account. Tarc (talk) 02:16, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

What he said. This is about this editor's behaviour, about deception at RfA, and, actually, a test of integrity. Ashley has an opportunity to make things right here, and display a sense of propriety. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 05:39, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

Motion to close

Holding users to account for their actions from nearly two years ago is not the intended purpose of RfC/U, and users' conduct on other Wikimedia projects is out of the scope of the English Wikipedia's dispute-resolution processes. Given that, and that minimal evidence has been presented that Fae has continued the pattern of behaviour he exhibited as Ash which led to the original RfC/U, I'm not sure what can possibly be achieved here except more drama. Thus, it is my suggestion that this be closed, or at least put on ice until there is evidence of actionable (ie recent) misconduct. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 01:04, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

• Oppose. So far, the majority of editors have agreed that there is substance to the allegations raised in this RfC. It needs to run the full 30 days. Cla68 (talk) 01:55, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
  • I don't see why. Is anything likely to change between now and then?
• Support I'm not seeing any benefit. No on-going issues have been identified. It's not even clear that there are any issues with the Fae account worthy of note, and certainly none worthy of an RfCU. The issues with the Ash account are quite old. Hobit (talk) 02:04, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose - Sounds like an attempt to just sweep a problem under the rug and hope it goes away. Tarc (talk) 02:12, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
  • Then please tell me what you hope this RfC might achieve. I see no pattern of ongoing misconduct by Fae. A lot of people feel he gamed the system at his RfA and are angry, and there were legitimate concerns about his edits from nearly two years ago, which don't seem to be an on-going issue, so what is there to sweep under the rug? HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 02:27, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
    • I'm hoping to achieve a sense of normalcy and put a stop to the antics of the likes of Will "Give Me What I Want or I Shall Delete!" Beback above. There's no reason not to let this run a normal 30 days. Tarc (talk) 03:17, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
      • Will "Give Me What I Want or I Shall Delete!" Beback, as you call him, asked for the information on what dispute involved Fæ that was not resolved for two people, and thus forms the base of a dispute. Frankly, there is no such dispute. Whether he is right or wrong in his actions is not mine to judge; however, I also do not question what he did. CycloneGU (talk) 05:27, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
        • Will demanded "proof" of Fae==Ash, when everyone involved in this already knows it is true. The dispute is with the person behind the accounts y'know, not with any one editor persona. Tarc (talk) 13:30, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
          • I thought it was uncontroversial to say that the two accounts are the same person. The issue, however, is the lack of any recent dispute. People are pissed off that he became an admin after making a "clean start", which is not an unreasonable sentiment, but it's not a dispute. The "locus" of the dispute is from April 2010, so what sort of action are you looking for over that? Without a dispute to resolve, this is just lots of people telling Fae how angry they are. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 13:39, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
            • Sorry to intrude, but I'm pissed off that he became an admin after saying that he'd come out of an RfC/U with no sanctions, when the RfC hadn't finished and if it had, he'd have likely been sanctioned. That is, he got the bit deceptively. I don't have a problem with the clean start. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 14:07, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
              • That's a legitimate sentiment. But what do you hope this RfC will do about it? HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 14:17, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
                • You keep saying things like "The issue...is the lack of any recent dispute", disregarding the fact that several people have said that they don't consider that to be the issue at all. If we're just down to a difference of opinion here, that's fine, but IMO you are not acknowledging that there is another opinion in the room. Tarc (talk) 14:45, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
                • @HJM. The RFC should attempt to "request outside input, and dispute resolution, with respect to article content, user conduct, and Wikipedia policy and guidelines." and hopefully reach a consensus on the issues which many here feel important. There's plenty of value in the community discussing these things, and when they feel there isn't, I expect they will stop. I don't expect the RFC to "do anything about it" other than that. I think that's what they are for. Begoon ^talk 04:11, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

• Strong Support - I think we have done enough already. I do not see anything that troubles me in Fae's past, and as I said in my comments on the RFC page, I believe Fae has been a very good admin and the work he had done on the WMUK board is commendable.-- Marek.69 ^talk 02:13, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose Practice is to run any RfC for a normal period of time and not to short-circuit legitimate processes of Wikipedia. Collect (talk) 02:49, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
• Strong Support - I see a battle brewing here, and this might not be good regardless of how it occurs or the result. However, the fact that select users (I'm looking at one of you in particular) seem to be on a smear campaign to remind people of Fæ's past makes closure less likely; unfortunately, such comments will come to convince other users that something must be done and thus they will insist the RfC must continue. However, the bygone issue is two years old. Maybe in a court of law you can be put on trial for a crime ten years in the past, but is this the same attitude we wish to employ on Wikipedia? I should think not. Fæ took a clean start - even if not very well-executed - and has improved remarkably. Sure, Fæ makes mistakes once in a while; address these on an individual basis on his talk page, don't bring up past transgressions in inspired but pointless RfCs and try to set a new precedent that should never come to pass here. CycloneGU (talk) 05:10, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

• Oppose. Support. It's time. Oppose. Fae should consider handing back the bit. He misled the community when this RfC began, by saying he was quitting, causing the RfC to be put on hold, heading off the inevitable deserved sanctions that were approaching. This device enabled him to tell the community at his RfA that he'd been the subject of an RfC but had never been sanctioned. That—no sanctions after an RfC—is a good look, and would have counted in his favour at the RfA.

This is deception and gaming. Perhaps it just panned out that way, and this wasn't intentional. Nevertheless, it's clear to me the RfA was based on false and misleading information and, if this person is worthy of adminship, he will recognise the impropriety and resign. Immediately. If he doesn't, he'll be saying something very loud and clear to the community about his character.

This RfC should stay open. It is clearly the same editor, and there is clearly something very important to discuss. Nothing more to learn here. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 05:29, 2 February 2012 (UTC) Updated 19:34, 8 February 2012 (UTC) Again after Wikipedia:An#RFC.2FU_closer_needed. 04:41, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

• Oppose. There are now 40 editors who have endorsed "Ash quit under a cloud, with an active user RFC containing serious allegations about reliable sources and BLPs. If Fae really is Ash, ArbCom erred greatly in letting him stand for adminship without disclosing his past account to the community. With full transparency, its very likely the RfA wouldn't have passed". Wikipedia's processes have to stand up to outside scrutiny, and cutting this short can only increase the suspicions of that scrutiny. As far as I can tell, no one has called for bans and/or blocks here, so the user is free to continue editing without being admin. Exactly why does the user feel the need to continue in a position of (dubiously-gained) authority at Wikipedia when he could easily relinquish the tools (as he states he is willing to do on his user page), and simply continue being the good Wikipedian everyone hopes he will be? Anyhow, if nothing else, this should certainly runs its course so that other editors (perhaps with other evidence and opinions) have an opportunity to comment. GFHandel ♬  06:01, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
  • Yes they have. That's a statement, but it doesn't suggest any desired outcomes which are within the scope of an RfC/U. The process isn't here to tell editors how angry we are that we think they deceived us, but to resolve disputes. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 13:31, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

• Oppose as per normal RfC policies. St John Chrysostom ^view/_my bias 06:04, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
  • That comment merely shows that you haven't read those policies. Please do so, then strike your comment. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 13:31, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
    • Disagreeing with your interpretation of policy is evidence the editor disagrees with your interpretation of policy, not evidence the editor hasn't read them. Nobody Ent 14:09, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
• Meh Lots of people are indignant about lots of different things, closing the discussion is technically correct if only because of the filing errors and the badsites involvement, and probably the most sensible thing to do in the interests of the project. But it won't get consensus and I can't see that it would avoid the issues festering. I may try to draft up a view that at least tries to narrow our differences rather than widen them. Thanks for trying ϢereSpielChequers 13:05, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
• Support - End this farce already. Reaper Eternal (talk) 13:46, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
• Support - As HJ Mitchell said above, "The "locus" of the dispute is from April 2010, so what sort of action are you looking for over that? Without a dispute to resolve, this is just lots of people telling Fae how angry they are." Exok (talk) 13:58, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose - per pillars consensus and not a legalistic bureaucracy. Nobody Ent 14:09, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
• Is it normal to close an RfC on a user conduct issue before the user in question responds? --SB_Johnny | ^talk 14:37, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
• Strong Support RfC/U has no legitimacy, the process needs a redesign to prevent discussions being swamped with would be witchhunters. FeydHuxtable (talk) 16:40, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
• Support. There is no actual dispute about Fae's conduct. There is no resolution. The RFC is just a platform for a lot of drama. The Land (talk) 17:58, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
• Support. I don't think any sanction should have come out of the RFC/U. Having someone evade an RFC/U by cleanstart may be gaming the system, but only if they disclose the cleanstart or real name at all; actions like this make that less likely than ever. Blocks are not supposed to be punitive, and neither should lesser sanctions be - which means, if someone evades those sanctions and edits appropriately for years afterward, there's no logic in imposing them anyway. We should have a system that is more designed to avoid branding editors with allegations than on branding them so they never recover! That said, those prosecuting an RFC/U or any such process have the responsibility not to be dissuaded by voluntary statements about 'backing off' or even retiring if there is real substance to the allegations; rather they should seek to bring things to a solid conclusion. I just think that conclusion should recognize that a cleanstarted editor who isn't still a problem shouldn't be subject to any sanction. Also, I think that when people like Ash or Cirt run away from the hyenas, they look like prey; it's probably better for people to stand and fight. Wnt (talk) 20:16, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
  • The RfC/U doesn't doesn't propose punitively blocking Fæ. It doesn't even discuss blocking Fæ. This RfC/U doesn't seek the Fæ ouster. Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/Fæ#Desired_outcome proposes a voluntary ban from revising BLP's in order to prevent damage to them (that's acknowledging one's flaws and taking step to prevent further damage; it isn't accepting a punishment) and the voluntary resignation of sysop rights due to a faulty RfA (that's acknowledging and undoing a mistake, not implementing a punishment upon oneself). This RfC/U isn't about punishing Fæ or driving users from Wikipedia, and the people screaming, "OMG, witchhunt!" should stop treating it as if it were. --Michaeldsuarez (talk) 20:35, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

My point was "neither should lesser sanctions be". Sorry for any confusion. You may say that Fae losing an adminship is a small penalty for him ... but it's a bigger penalty for Wikipedia, which needs admins whose tool-use decisions people aren't complaining about. Wnt (talk) 23:59, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

• Comment Since HJMitchell proposed the closure, there has continued to be a significant amount of continuing input into the RfC. This is the purpose of an RfC, to attract community commentary. When an RfC is continuing to attract this much helpful input, a proposal to prematurely close it is extremely unhelpful and counterproductive. Cla68 (talk) 23:16, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
• Support closure. This RFCU is hopelessly unfocused. I read five distinct questions intertwined.

1. Was there an unacceptable cleanstart?

2. Is there a continuing problem with Fae and BLP sourcing needing resolution?

3. Should Fae's RFA be overturned due to Fae's alleged misleading statements, or due to others alleged misleading statements?

4. Did ArbCom fail to meet community expectations?

5. Did John Vandenberg personally mislead the community?

No prejudice against a new, better focused RFCU. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 23:33, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

• Oppose The subject of the RFC hasn't even replied.--Peter cohen (talk) 01:50, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

  What exactly is he supposed to reply to? No one brought up a dispute with the user Fæ; everyone keeps bringing two year old allegations against Ash, which - regardless of whether they are the same person or not - have nothing to do with Fæ. I wouldn't know how to fill in that spot myself if I were the subject. Even the desired outcome refers to Ash, an editor no longer active! CycloneGU (talk) 02:44, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

• "which - regardless of whether they are the same person or not - have nothing to do with Fæ." I can see the point you are trying to make, but I'm afraid I can't go as far as saying that edits made by the same person, under a different name "have nothing to do with them". Maybe we are supposed to treat them as past some "statute of limitations", because of the attempted "clean start", I don't personally feel that it is correct to do so in these circumstances.Begoon ^talk 03:52, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

• Oppose closure whilst discussion is not complete, although SmokeyJoe's refocussing suggestion is good. Begoon ^talk 03:52, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose closure. I don't think that the discussion is limited to stale concerns. Continuing the discussion is not equivalent to deciding that any particular sanctions must be the outcome. Rather, continuing the discussion is a way for the community to continue to work out what we think about the complicated issues that have been raised. Clearly, there are two sides to these issues, which is all the more reason not to end things prematurely. --Tryptofish (talk) 16:53, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

  This is a fair view, as I agree with a good portion of what you are suggesting here. It would be good to continue discussion of some of the issues raised here. However, I do not think a RFC/U on a specific user is the proper forum for it. CycloneGU (talk) 03:07, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

  The way I see it, closing it early will only result in it becoming a request for arbitration. And Johnbod, directly below, you said that just at the point where I offered my own opinions (ahem!).Point taken. You cannot really know what other users might think to contribute in the future. If you are right, then no harm. If you are wrong, then we lose out in the long run. In fact, I think that one of the many dysfunctions of RfC/U is that it is skewed against thoughtful input from users who take their time to weigh the facts and come up with opinions that aren't just preconceptions or shooting from the hip. The earliest views posted tend to be those that get the most endorsements, which are often just counted, and later views keep getting preempted by motions to close. --Tryptofish (talk) 15:07, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

No I said that 7 hours after your last comment, and 12 hours ago. No one else has edited the page since, despite it being the weekend. Obviously you can keep it open for ever & the occasional comment will be made, but that's not how we work. Johnbod (talk) 15:21, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

• Support - it's been going since January 25, & has slowed right down. Nothing important will be added now. Johnbod (talk) 03:58, 4 February 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose. As WereSpielChequers said, closing it early just means that things will fester. If it peters out, that is one thing; if it's closed early, that's another. --JN466 09:09, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

  Per Tryptofish below, and my own comment earlier, I do agree it's good to hash out some of the material brought up here. With that said, Fæ has had an excellent record as an admin. Sure, mistakes can be made; he's human, after all. But an RFC/U based on something from an account abandoned via a WP:CLEANSTART two years ago? Let's find a better forum. CycloneGU (talk) 17:06, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

  Let me state this again; ACCOUNTS do not get sanctioned, PEOPLE do. We freely acknowledge and accept here that the same person who was once "Ash" now edits as "Fae", I hope that little nitpick is finally over and done with. The PERSON was in the process of being reprimanded when he disappeared, only to reappear under a new account. Being "good" with a new account does not make what they did under another guide magically go away. Tarc (talk) 18:59, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

  So because someone went to the trouble to identify this editor, thus linking him permanently to the old account from which he took a WP:CLEANSTART, and despite having reformed himself completely since then, you still want to press issues from two years ago? In other words, you are not a believer in the WP:CLEANSTART policy? CycloneGU (talk) 19:53, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

  Not when one cleanstsarts to avoid sanctions, no. Tarc (talk) 20:48, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

• Strong Support I hadn't weighed in on this because I felt it was premature. It is clear that the RfC isn't going to result in any sanctions against Fae and this page is degenerating into nothing but a bunch of whining and personal attacks unrelated to the Fae RfC.---Balloonman ^{Poppa Balloon} 19:23, 8 February 2012 (UTC)
• Support - a discussion with Baloonman has clarified by thoughts - this is not going anywhere new now - I support an experienced closer taking the time to read through all this and letting us all know what advice for the user:fae and indeed for any other user has come out of it. Youreallycan 22:57, 8 February 2012 (UTC) - let it roll - RFC user is still receiving input and needs working towards a consensus outcome. - Youreallycan 13:35, 10 February 2012 (UTC)
• Procedural oppose. I thinks some of the talk-page discussion has been too vehement, but there have been a significant number of views added just in the past few days to the project page that are entirely in line with a RfC/U's purpose. Claiming that no sanctions are likely to result is a silly reason to close a RfC/U, whose primary purpose is not impose sanctions (WP:AN is the venue for requesting WP:CBANs), but rather a RfC/U is primarily aimed at reaching a voluntary agreement or compromise, and perhaps gather the community consensus on principles that may help defuse similar future disputes before they become ticking drama bombs. ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 22:58, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

Suggestion

Please let me offer a friendly suggestion to, in particular, any editors who are eager to close the RfC, but also to everyone who may be interested in it. It would be a good idea, by way of preparing for a useful closure (one that is less likely to lead simply to a request for arbitration or some other lack of resolution), to start preparing a summary statement here in this talk. Ideally, it would identify areas of consensus. Failing that, it would be of the form "some editors felt that ABC, whereas other editors felt that XYZ". --Tryptofish (talk) 22:42, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

Good point. I'm not supporting closure to "let things fester" or pave the way for arbitration, but as a statement by the Wikipedia community that there's nothing to these allegations and Ash should go on his way with our compliments. Wnt (talk) 17:34, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

Desired outcome

So, the desired outcome of this RfC/U is

a voluntary agreement by Ash to cease editing BLPs (biographies of living people), which require "particular care" in the sourcing and verification of facts as per WP:BLP. Further investigation into the extent of the misuse of citations may also be warranted.

It's clear from the evidence presented here that this editor (still) cannot be trusted to edit BLP's. It also seems that the editor is not going to voluntarily agree to cease editing them. I'm not familiar enough with how these things work. Can someone propose on the RfC that Fae be involuntarily banned from editing BLPs? Can the RfC process enforce such a resolution? --Anthonyhcole (talk) 15:22, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

"Voluntary agreement" implies some sort of negotiation between Fæ and the community or Fæ coming to terms with what the RfC/U has to say. I don't see any negotiation, and I don't see Fæ. I don't believe that this RfC will end in the "desired outcome". --Michaeldsuarez (talk) 15:56, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

Just to clarify, don't support involuntarily banning Fæ from editing BLP's. I haven't endorsed any view or comment on the RfC/U about the alleged BLP violations. My main concern, unlike Delicious carbuncle's main concern, is the lack of transparency, honesty, and information at Fæ's RfC. I'm simply making a statement about the predicament of a "voluntary agreement" being impossible due to Fæ's lack of participation on the main page of this RfC/U. --Michaeldsuarez (talk) 17:05, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

All this RfC/U seems to provide is yet further evidence that some accounts are happy to support a witchhunt. FeydHuxtable (talk) 16:36, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

WP:AN/I has better evidence: Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#Propose_community_ban_for_User:Rlevse_.2F_User:Vanished_6551232. --Michaeldsuarez (talk) 16:41, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

RFC/Us cannot "Impose/enforce involuntary sanctions, blocks, bans, or binding disciplinary measures" (although those are often enacted following RFC/Us). Note that in re-opening this request, I also suggested that Fæ resign their adminship due to the circumstances of their RfA. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 17:04, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

Thanks. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 17:18, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

I doubt if that is going to happen because he acknowledged having an old account before running and the community chose overwhelmingly to promote despite a dearth of factual knowledge surrounding the old account. Since being promoted, we've yet to see ongoing issues. Yeah, you've provided a few that you contend are controversial, but 2 or 3 edits over a 2 year period isn't enough to desysop.---Balloonman ^{Poppa Balloon} 02:07, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

It's not "clear from the evidence" DC brings up a number of issues with Fae's editing. These are

1. Providing a supporting reference to X being given Y award by Z, that only states X was given an award by Z, and does not name it. This is an improvement on no referencing at all, and provides more information that DC says (this also happened with one of the refs DC brought up against Ash).
2. Sourcing whether somewhere was a good place for gay travellers to a gay travel guide. (Could there be a better source?)
3. Using a photo he took.
4. Some occurrence on Commons, which should be irrelevant.

This is just so slight, that I have trouble believing anyone could think it was a basis for an RFC/U. I prefer to AGF that DC thought this was worth citing, but I'm sure many people would think me foolish for doing so. Rich Farmbrough, 03:51, 3 February 2012 (UTC).

Rich Farmbrough, I was referring to his insistence on including an embarrassing nickname in a young woman's biography, which she clearly found very distressing. It displays no idea of decency, or what is appropriate for a BLP.

Balloonman, you say the community had a dearth of factual knowledge surrounding the old account when it promoted him. That's not true. The community had been told enough to satisfy their concerns: among other things they were told he had passed through an RfC without sanctions (essentially a community endorsement), and that ArbCom considered the community already knew everything relevant for an RfA.

...you already know everything that Arbcom consider relevant for RFA. (Fæ)

Only, these "facts" weren't true. Had these been true, in my opinion, the community would have been justified in promoting Fæ. That misleading statements by Fæ were allowed to stand in that RfA, is not the community's fault; they should have been directly challenged by John Vandenberg who knew the history, and struck. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 05:23, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

No, we had a dearth of knowledge and still chose to promote. A dearth of knowledge = lack of actual knowledge. We chose to accept Fae's position and accepted John's stance as gospel. John/ArbCOM did not correct Fae's position and essentially put a seal of approval on it. But in no other case would the stance of a single person be sufficeint to overcome concerns. We had one person testify on his behalf---and accepted that testimony as foolproof. That is a dearth of information---yet, despite a lack of info, some decided they had all the facts they needed and promoted.---Balloonman ^{Poppa Balloon} 05:30, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

You appear to recognise that Fae made misleading statements during his RFA which vitiated the !voters' consent to support him. I'm strongly convinced that Fae acted in good faith and that such misrepresentation was only due to negligence, but this does not change the fact that the community was misled and that, therefore, in my opinion, a reconfirmation RFA is warranted. You cannot just say the community supported Fae's RFA and, so, what's done is done and we now can do nothing about it, because, as I've already stated, the consensus which led to Fae's promotion was not freely formed, due to a defect of consent. Salvio ^{Let's talk about it!} 12:37, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

Balloonman, John Vandenberg did correct Fæ's position. Please stop saying otherwise. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 12:48, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

John did say "The fact that ArbCom knows of the prior account is simply that; there is no seal of approval that accompanies this." But that was half-way down the page in a response to a !vote. Fæ's comment, "you already know everything that Arbcom consider relevant for RFA," which implies ArbCom has considered the matter and decided there's nothing we need to know, appeared in the Q&A at the top of the page, and should have been struck as soon as it was made. And John did not correct the impression that Fæ had survived an RfC/U without sanctions. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 13:17, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

Agreed with Anthony. John did not correct Fae, he also made numerous posts arguing for Fae and numerous people accepted John's word. Take a look at the RfA. About 5 hours after the RfA went live, John (an Arb) makes a public declaration in the nomination section:

• I can confirm that Fæ took the time to talk with one of his prior critics (not me,fwiw), letting them know both old and new account names. Fæ has also informed Arbcom of the prior account name. I have looked over the contributions of old and new account names, and can also confirm that Fæ has refocused, in many ways.03:54, 15 March 2011

That declaration clearly implies that ArbCOM knew about the issue and that John as a member of ArbCOM had vetted the candidate and that no issues remained. John then declares,

• However, I can answer "Are they [Issues from the RfC] ones that could concern a reasonable !voter here?", but this will end up being something you'll need to trust me on, and I don't think you will, but answers should be given anyway. A reasonable !voter here would not be concerned about the focus of the old account.09:12, 19 March 2011

Again, he placed himself in a position of authority declaring that we would need to trust him on his judgment that the issues would not concern the community. About halfway down the page, Pedro indicates that he doesn't trust John but that John gave Fae the "ArbCOM seal of Approval." John responds to Pedro by saying, My comment in regards to the disclosure is in a personal capacity only. The fact that ArbCom knows of the prior account is simply that; there is no seal of approval that accompanies this. He then goes on to argue that there is yet a better reason to trust that Fae has changed, This is the reason why it is more important that one of the prior critics (an extremely long term and trusted community member) has also been informed of the prior account - that way there is no dependence on ArbCom to continually monitor Fae to ensure compliance to their commitment (above) to recuse in regards to the other prior critics. Note, he is not correcting Fae, but rather trying to convince Pedro that even if Pedro doesn't trust John/ArbCOM, that there is a better reason to support Fae. The context of the quote about him speaking personally and not as an Arb, thus has a completely different context than it might had John been rebutting something Fae said.

Besides this half hearted comment to Pedro (after 70 supports), John never tells Fae nor the community that we are putting too much value into the appeals to ArbCOM. In fact, John continues to support the view that:

• As you can imagine, I see a lot of bullshit "clean start"s. This clean start is one of the rare occasions when the contributor really has refocused. I wouldn't be here otherwise.

Well, the community can imagine that John sees a lot of bullshit clean starts because he's on ArbCOM and sees more BS than most of us. So again, he appealed subtly to his Arb status.

A lot is made of Fae's comment, you already know everything that Arbcom consider relevant for RFA (and other places where he referenced ArbCOM). Again, that was challenged in the RfA---by Pedro. Fae responded in part with, I am not party to other Arbcom discussions or other confirmations they might have made in the intervening time though I have made a statement that I sent directly to the Arbcom mail list. I had previously contacted another Arbcom member for advice in December last year but it was JV who took on the task of looking into my clean start and I first emailed him in January this year.

John did not respond nor did he contradict anything Fae said relative to ArbCOM. Fae's comments at the time are in perfect accord with what he recently wrote in his discussion with John on Fae's page. Both Fae and the community thought more about what John did to vett Fae, than what John has currently revealed. This is not Fae's fault---but rather John's failure to clarify issues and the communities for accepting the stance of one user as Gospel. Fae may have provided bad information, but I have no doubt based upon the comments at the time and in the recent discussion on his page, that Fae believed what he was saying to be accurate and John didn't not refute them.---Balloonman ^{Poppa Balloon} 16:32, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

"was referring to his insistence on including an embarrassing nickname in a young woman's biography" I hadn't looked at this prior to today, as it was not listed as a dispute that was not able to be solved, and hence is not relevant to certifying this RFC/U. I do find it somewhat ridiculous that on the one side of this argument we have people who are insisting on attempting to "out" an account that clearly wanted privacy, and edited in an area where socking for that purposes is allowed by policy, and on the other hand they accuse Fæ of lack of decency when someone wishes (possibly) to be revisionist over matters she has included in her own autobiographies - matters of public record. One of these is described as "A no-holds-barred memoir by the star of numerous videos provides a behind-the-scenes exposé of the hip hop industry that takes the glitter off a world of trysts with celebrities, physical abuse, rape, and drugs." according to Wikipedia she is (33 year old) "American author, most notably of the Vixen series of books." Rich Farmbrough, 15:27, 4 February 2012 (UTC).

None of that is a reason to cite a video-streaming porn site showing the BLP subject having sex, along with press releases by the adult entertainment company in question, as reliable sources in Wikipedia, IMO. Or to make a stink when someone takes crap like that out under BLP policy. It's not the sort of BLP sourcing and behaviour I would expect from an admin (cf. Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive712#Admin_conduct_review_requested). Steffans may be no saint, but she objected to the release of that video, which I understand was filmed a good few years prior, and whose release at that precise time was designed to cash in on a successful book release of hers. Even when writing about people who have made sex videos, there is no need for us to sink below the level of the Daily Sport. --JN466 00:18, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

Yes. I apologise for not mentioning the wikilegal misconduct in that case: the use of poor sources to support his argument for inclusion. Frankly, in my mind, that fades into insignificance when compared with the reckless cruelty the editor tried to perpetrate - trying to force an irrelevant, and distressing, humiliating and degrading nickname into a BLP. That act speaks loudly to me of the editor's poor understanding of what is appropriate content for a BLP, and confirms that the original desired outcome is something worth calling for. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 05:28, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

If I understand the sourcing correctly (and, admittedly, it's a bit of a swamp to go through all the discussions of it), it eventually came out in the discussions on the BLP talk page that Steffans herself wrote about the nickname in a book of memoirs. Even though she also objected to the video, it would be entirely appropriate to source the nickname to her own book. I think that fact tends to be overlooked here. On the other hand, I agree with Anthony that Fae seemed, during those discussions, to be pushing too aggressively for inclusion of the nickname based upon the more dubious sourcing – while those who disagreed with Fae dragged their feet in accepting the better sourcing. --Tryptofish (talk) 15:15, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for wading through that, and for the clarification. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 15:31, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

There is such a thing as WP:WELLKNOWN, but if we allow every admin who remembers it exists to be drummed out of Wikipedia, I suppose there won't be anymore. Because nobody's bothered to say which article and nickname it is (let alone diffs) I didn't look into this issue, but this sounds like a reprise of santorum (neologism), and all of us on both sides know where we stand on that. Wnt (talk) 02:22, 6 February 2012 (UTC) --- Wait, no, I riddled it out [26]. I think the list of sources there is indeed persuasive. It's not Wikipedia's job to maintain "privacy" about things that are all over the news. Wnt (talk) 02:29, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

Personal attacks

Trustees or volunteers carrying out work and activities on behalf of Wikimedia UK do so in that role and deserve the support of the Chapter. Disputes involving their activities as individuals as contributors, editors or admins on the pages of Wikis need to be addressed separately and in the appropriate places. The two should not be muddled. Specifically I have asked Fae ( A trustee of Wikimedia UK) to avoid repeating details of threats made against him or others.

If you have any felt threatened carrying out your roles on behalf of Wikimedia UK, or know of similar threats against members of Wikimedia UK, or have questions please contact me by phone on +44 (0) 20 7065 0990 or by email at jon.davieswikimedia.org.uk.

Similarly if you have concerns about anything to do with the Chapter address them in the first instance directly to me.

Jon Davies, Wikimedia UK Chief Executive. Jon Davies WMUK (talk) 11:01, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

Jon, I find your statement confusing. You start out by reinforcing the idea that Fæ's "activities as individuals as contributors, editors or admins" are separate from their activities as a trustee of Wikimedia UK. Fine, this is a request for comment regarding their activities as an editor, not as a WMUK trustee. Then you go on to state that you, as Chief Executive of WMUK, have asked him to "avoid repeating details of threats made against him or others". I am having trouble seeing the connection. Surely threats made against Fæ or his husband are a personal matter in which WMUK has no involvement (although I am sure he appreciates your support). If Fæ wishes to discuss those threats, and I take his statement here to mean that he is willing, what business is that of Wikimedia UK? Delicious carbuncle (talk) 12:46, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

I find this rather deeply persuasive of the position that no meaningful threat has been made. I didn't believe the "hate crimes" claims when he was "Ash" a year ago, either. We now have 2 instances of claims of some kind of threat of real world harm directed at Fae at times of scrutiny (now and during the original RFC that he dodged with the rename) with not one shred of evidence provided. Furthermore, we know that after the first "threat" that caused him to "retire" (which User:Ash continues to imply had some kind of effect on those close to him) he not only immediately returned but soon openly and intentionally disclosed his real world identity -- an odd choice for someone frightened about their safety.Bali ultimate (talk) 14:24, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

I don't know anything about this, but I don't think you do either. I wish you would show as much skepticism when making statements like "There is no question that [User:Ash, I assume] was caught faking sources in encyclopedia articles",^[27] which so far as I know is based on an extreme and I believe unjustified position from an RFC that was not concluded. Given the level of Wikipedia Review harassment, considering the kind of precedents we've seen from WikiSposure and Encyclopedia Dramatica and probably any other carnivorous Wiki out there, I find such threats very plausible, even commonplace. I am willing to WP:AGF about WMUK and its official statements. Wnt (talk) 17:16, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

Wnt, let's admit that none of us know very much about this. Several people, including Fæ, have made reference to "threats" in discussions here, without any indication of what those threats were, who made them, or where they were made. I asked Fæ to clarify what was meant when he said "threats" and provided him with an indication of how I was interpreted his use of that term by reference to a particular comment on Commons. I didn't do this to make him feel more threatened. I did it so that I could understand what was being said. Fæ seems to hold me responsible for a great many things that other people do, so I am likely to be seen as responsible for this as well, or at least connected to it. If Fæ chooses not to talk about it, that is his decision. Having Jon Davies show up to say that Fæ can't talk about it seems to imply that there is some connection between the as yet undisclosed threats and the WMUK. I am now more confused than ever as to the nature of the threats, which would be fine if they weren't an issue here, but clearly they are being seen as related to this case and will continue to be brought up despite the fact that we don't know what we are taking about. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 19:43, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

Would be happy for you to come in and talk to me about this, my door is open. Jon Davies WMUK (talk) 17:10, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

Cool. I'll call and we'll do an interview. I'll try you on Monday.Bali ultimate (talk) 17:12, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

Is there a way of interpreting Jon Davies' request not to repeat the threats that does not involve making Bali ultimate's assumption that the threats have been investigated and found to be non-existent? The lack of an explanation for why the request has been made seems very damaging. Exok (talk) 20:53, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

In the interests of transparency, I'll disclose that I spoke to Jon to ensure that if hes getting telephone calls from the community he wouldn't just be hearing the anti Fae view. I suggested its always worth checking the contributions of particular accounts before deciding how much weight to place on their views. Some are here to help build an encyclopaedia, while others seem to spend most of their time and energy attacking good contributors and trying to destroy other peoples work. While I tried not to directly accuse anyone of falling into the latter camp, its probably fair to say I implied the description might fit some of those attacking Fae. FeydHuxtable (talk) 12:44, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

Motion to Archive Past Discussions

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

I have already tried to archive the discussions at the top of this page due in part to the length of the page (over 227,000 bytes, definitely over 200 KB), the excessive load time that results from such a page length, and having to burrow through 16 stale discussions to find the one comment in the one discussion that one is seeking. I am hereby filing a motion to archive past discussions to Wikipedia talk:Requests for comment/Fæ/Archive1. CycloneGU (talk) 20:30, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

• My advice, although I don't feel very strongly, is not to archive. So long as another editor objects to the archiving, I think it's reasonable to take the position that editors should see all of the discussion as we try to come to a consensus, and the talk page will have a fixed (30 day) lifespan. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:40, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

  This is of course true, but my action was strictly given the length of the page. There's a reason WP:ANI archives discussions that are a single day stale. Of course, if the editorship in general disagrees, so be it; it remains a technical strain on the server the bigger the page gets. Further, the relevant discussion is not on this page, but rather here. CycloneGU (talk) 20:43, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

Perhaps part of the issue is that you archived a large number of discussions without regard for which ones may still be relevant to the active discussions. Most of those discussions had comments only days ago and may not yet be complete. As someone who has expressed a strong opinion here, I do not think you should be the one deciding what is "stale" or what discussions should be archived. I would have no objection to automatic archiving of threads over, say, 10 days old, but manually archiving large amounts of content here is probably not helping the poor overworked servers as much as it is hiding relevant information. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 22:15, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

• - This suggestion is totally unnecessary and detrimental to investigation of the issues. Youreallycan 22:22, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

• Seems like yet another attempt at rug-sweeping; joining Will's deletion and Rich's de-listing attempts. Tarc (talk) 22:33, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

• I am hereby filing a motion that this unsupported section be closed. Think of the server resources we can save by just hatting this now. You know it makes sense. Begoon ^talk 22:38, 5 February 2012 (UTC)
  • Yes thats a clear hat trick - sometimes its incredulous the way such issues happen - I have looked at it in depth but , its senseless basically, sure there are partisans but there are also many fringe contributors that just defy interpretation . At such times it relieves me to remember that en wikipedia has many editors as young as nine years old. Youreallycan 22:41, 5 February 2012 (UTC)
    • Aw, it was just really my humorous way of opposing, and suggesting that maybe voting on something like that was a tiny bit of a waste of people's time, perhaps. That's all I was saying. But I do agree that information is often "tactically" hidden, or attempts are made to do so. Just wasn't commenting on that here. :-) Begoon ^talk 22:48, 5 February 2012 (UTC)
      • Yes, no worries, your humorous position was clear. Youreallycan 22:52, 5 February 2012 (UTC)
• As I did in the Cirt RfC, before this RfC closes, here on the talk page I will list, with diffs, the editors who made personal attacks and/or unsupported accusations of homophobia and bigotry against some of the participants in this RfC. Wikipedia editors need to understand that using such contemptible tactics in an attempt to "win" a debate, is unnaceptable. Cla68 (talk) 22:44, 5 February 2012 (UTC)
• This talk page should not be archived. The RFC is uncertified, but is being allowed to run, for whatever reason. The longer it runs the more information comes to light, a process which has clarified the dispute for me, from the original appearance of two editors unable to resolve their differences, and escalating in process, albeit mainly by DC, in good faith, to a slightly different and more disturbing picture. (I wholly support the thesis that the majority of porn actors are less notable than the majority of mainstream actors, for three reasons, firstly the mainstream of anything is almost always more notable, secondly porn is (I believe) mostly ephemeral, and thirdly porn is (again generally) a bulk low quality commodity.)
  • None of the substantive editing issues are ... well ... substantive.
  • The RFA issue is being used to associate two accounts contrary to common decency, and to policy, and possibly law
  • DC and Bali Ultimate follow Fae onto other projects, exporting the arguments there
  • DC and Bali Ultimate together with others on the satirical site Wikipedia Review co-ordinate attacks on Fae, which have included socks of banned users on WMF projects.
  • The comments have moved from what looked like valid (if overstated) concerns over sourcing to personal attacks, innuendo and smears, which are likely to have, and indeed have the stated intention of having, off-wiki repercussions.

Now this may be all construed as a part of the Wiki-game by some people, but to me it seems the type of behaviour we need to recognise and firmly quash. Rich Farmbrough, 13:59, 6 February 2012 (UTC).

Comment

My effort to archive was for sections that had not been replied to for a few days and, per comments to DC on my talk page, were not meant in any way to be any effort to sweep anything under any type of rug, carpet, or linoleum floor. It was merely meant as a page cleanup utility, archiving discussions that are older so that newer and active discussions remain on the page. Threads archived are not "hidden", they are still available for anyone investigating any issues. Regardless, the items to be investigated are not on this page; they are on the project page.

With that said, it appears my archiving efforts are opposed by more people than support it (did anyone support it, I don't think I see another). I must respect this even if I still disagree with it. Thus, I will respect the wishes of the community, but will refuse to search for comments in older threads per the reason I archived in the first place. If anything needs to be brought to the attention of everyone, it really is best to start a new section rather than reply to threads that are several days old. I hope discretion will be used in closing discussion in various areas that have been idle, encouraging new threads if necessary.

With that said, I withdraw my motion. CycloneGU (talk) 23:47, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Alternate "desired outcomes" ?

1. . That an RfC be held on RfA to determine whether "clean start" candidates for admin should be allowed to effectively conceal their past travails entirely.
2. . That such an RfC should also determine whether "clean start" candidates should be allowed to run for the mop at all.
3. . That Fae should openly state the facts about his prior accounts, if any, and not play the "homophobia" card when such has not been the focus of this RfC/U. A person who acts as a "public face" of Wikipedia should expect the news coverage resulting therefrom, including questions about his editing history.
4. . That an RfC be held regarding "clean starts" to determine if that policy needs to be amended in any way to prevent a reoccurrence of the current situation.

Does this reasonably convey some of the concerns expressed on the main page? Collect (talk) 02:55, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

I don't count these things as desirable. What I find desirable would be:

1. . That we spend more attention on not defaming private citizens who want to help Wikipedia by making trumped-up allegations about them, and less attention on not defaming famous people by saying what international news stories said about them.
2. . That we lower the bar for admins when it comes to requirements for schmoozing, asskissing, and never ticking anyone off by the opinions they hold or the edits they make, and we raise the bar for admins when it comes to using their tools or administrative power inappropriately.
3. . That we alleviate the admin shortage and reconnect admins with the community by allowing veteran editors a high chance of initial acceptance, subject to subsequent evaluation.
4. . That if any editor can work productively without drawing community sanctions for six months after a clean start, all previous infractions and restrictions and processes and sockpuppetry will be forgotten, except maybe permanent bans.

Wnt (talk) 04:01, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

Completely agree with Wnt. FeydHuxtable (talk) 12:44, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

Sounds like a knee-jerk reaction because you got burned. Making policy because of getting burnt doesn't work in real life and it doesn't work on Wikipedia. If we had used common sense a year ago, this would not be an issue today. If we use common sense in the future, none of the proposals above will be necessary. There are legitimate reasons for a clean start. The main time that one needs to be concerned is in the event of a clean start under a cloud---which this was. But making wide spread policy based upon isolated incidents is a formula for over reaction---just ask anybody who has had to deal with Sarbannes Oxley, the Patriot Act, Dodd-Frank, etc.---Balloonman ^{Poppa Balloon} 04:29, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

Clean start candidates should be allowed to request any tools here without having to reveal their previous identity. The problem in this case is the editor's "departure" while under scrutiny. ArbCom should have asked him to return and complete the RfC before agreeing to a clean start, so that the editor's problem area could be defined and, as a part of the clean start process, he should have undertaken to avoid that area in his new life. Ashley is still editing BLP's, and seems to need to avoid this area just as much now as he did when this RfC was started.

ArbCom, and Anyone vouching for a candidate, who knows the editor's prior editing history, must should pay particular attention to claims made by a clean start RfA candidate about that history, and promptly remove or directly refute or clarify any potentially misleading statements. I do believe the community was let down in this case.

The right course in this case seems clear to me, but I don't see any steps being taken in that direction. The editor should undertake to avoid BLPs. A part of me thinks he should hand back the bit, based on the flawed RfA, but I also think that, if he's proven to be a responsible and valuable admin, that step may be wasteful. Perhaps others whom he knows and respects, more familiar with his performance, could advise him on what's appropriate there. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 06:40, 6 February 2012 (UTC) Amended per Risker, below, 04:06, 7 February 2012 (UTC). Additions underlined.

While I sympathise with both parts of your suggestion, I would suggest that to a large extent, Fae doing so under these conditions would be giving way to bullying and harassing tactics which span several years and several websites. Ash edited in areas where even our socking policy allows editors to maintain separate accounts from already pseudonymous "main" accounts, and where we do need some coverage, wherever we choose to set the bar for notability. DC and others have attempted to "out" that account by tying it to a real-world identity. That is what we should be having an RFC/U about, not whether the sourcing for "style of a Roman baths" from "alternating Roman and gents club themes" is "fraudulent sourcing." Rich Farmbrough, 14:29, 6 February 2012 (UTC).

I am struggling to see your argument. The case for the prosecution is not that Fae was editing in 'difficult' areas where he needed greater anonymity (which is perhaps understandable). The case is rather that there were significant BLP problems with the old account. There was an RfC around those problems, and Fae jumped to a new account and so ducked out of the BLP issues. A similar issue has now arisen with the new account. In addition, there was a misleading RfA which would undoubtedly have failed if the BLP issues had been picked up. The community was deceived, grossly. It is not entirely clear who was responsible for the deception, but deception there was. Something has to be done. 86.173.251.202 (talk) 16:35, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

Do you really think the issues raised in Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/Ash are all that significant? We're talking about a few omitted references for minor details, and some people who seem to believe that any reference about pornography is intrinsically unreliable and so it's a BLP violation to write about the topic. Of the little that's there, much isn't even about persons. I don't see one fact there that someone pulled out and called a lie. I think the RfC, if started, should have been decided in Ash's favor, and I think that the responsibility for deciding to abort the RfC, which was dubbed as "inactive", lies mostly with those who were so active in compiling it, not with Ash for ducking out. Any sanction from the RfC would supposedly have been "voluntary" anyway. And the fact that certain editors express that they don't like his editing pattern is anything but a disqualification for RfA as far as I'm concerned. Wnt (talk) 17:28, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

I for one thing they were highly significant, and more so in the case of someone who represents Wikipedia. That's the first point. As for whether it would have been decided in Ash's favour, the community was not given that opportunity. I suspect the fact he ducked out suggests the obvious.86.173.251.202 (talk) 17:37, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

It seems like there are a lot of assumptions around here. People assume Ash is lying about the threats, assume that WMUK said for him not to detail them here because that's what they think, assume that Ash ducked out of the lynch mob because he thought he would lose the case on the merits. I think we should assume good faith and stop accepting when people pile on allegations and processes and interpretations and assumptions like something out of The Princess and the Pea. Wnt (talk) 17:59, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

Take each case as if it represented a general principle that you wanted to observe in all cases. Are we happy as a general principle that if things get tough during questioning or an RfA, we can duck out and start a new clean start? Yes or no. Are we happy that calling 'harassment' trumps everything, absolutely everything? Are we happy that in any difficult case we trust a single member of the senior administration to vouch for someone? If we are happy that these can be general principles, then fine. That's why this case is interesting. 86.173.251.202 (talk) 21:33, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

I suspect you mean RFC not RFA. If so, taking your questions one at a time:

1. Are we happy as a general principle that if things get tough during questioning or an RfA, we can duck out and start a new clean start? Not entirely, in act I expect most of us regard it as the least worse of various options. The ducking out bit is inherent to being an unpaid volunteer, if I don't like a real life job I will work for the rest of my contract or work my notice period, we unpaid volunteers are free to quit without any warning. As we are volunteers and this is an open wiki where people edit under pseudonyms or even as IPs, Cleanstart is a pragmatic and not entirely cost free solution. Remember that if Ash had not undergone Cleanstart but had instead agreed to refocus he might well have got through RFA as quickly as he did as few RFA !voters oppose for things done more than a few months earlier. I'm pretty sure that even if he'd failed because of the prior RFC he could have succeeded a few months later.
2. Are we happy that calling 'harassment' trumps everything, absolutely everything? I'm not sure where you get that idea from. Fae didn't mention harassment in his RFA despite the fact that at least a couple of !voters said they'd be !voting differently if the reason for the Cleanstart was harassment. If he had mentioned harassment in his RFA as a reason for the Cleanstart then he would have got much more than 85% support, but he chose not to mention it there. He gave very few clues that would have helped identify his former account, and that was one thing that people would have been very supportive of. As User Ash he had said that harassment was one of the reasons why user:Ash stopped editing, but you don't need anyone's permission to undergo Cleanstart, so I'm not clear what if anything the charge of harassment has trumped. Certainly I don't see anything pertaining to this RFC that has been trumped by it.
3. Are we happy that in any difficult case we trust a single member of the senior administration [sic] to vouch for someone? In the case of Fae we had 50,000 edits over twelve months to judge on, we also had the input of one Arb re the former account, and indirectly of a now retired senior editor who was one of the endorsers of the previous RFC. But we also knew that the rest of the Arbs had been informed of the prior account, one of them supported the RFA and as I remember none opposed. I was and am happy with that, but others appear not to be, and having Arbcom appoint a panel of three for similar incidents in the future may be a better system. Not least because it greatly reduces the risk of the person doing the review retiring before this sort of debate opens up, we were lucky that John Vandenberg is still around almost a year later to answer queries, I know of at least one Arb of that era who is not currently active. ϢereSpielChequers 01:04, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

Hold on here. You want us to appoint panels to review whether or not someone claiming a cleanstart with no official link to the prior account can run for RFA? Given that it's happened exactly once in the last four years (or possibly longer) where Arbcom even got notified, that's not a good use of Arbcom time. There were at least two other RFAs of people claiming cleanstarts where Arbcom was not involved at all, as far as I can see; there could very well have been more, but I don't usually watch the RFA pages. I'm even less likely to now, if there's an expectation that any support I give will be dependent on my scouring Arbcom-L files before I write my ~~~~. I'm sorry, but I think that's not appropriate. Risker (talk) 02:35, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

Hi Risker, I'm actually happy with the single Arb procedure that we went through with Fae, but many others clearly aren't. Now I could understand you being concerned if this was a monthly event and therefore each Arb was expected to sit on such a panel every 8 months or so. But if this is a once every four years event then the vast majority of Arbs would never need to sit on such a panel. Many of the arbs who only serve one term wouldn't even have the opportunity to volunteer for such a panel as there wouldn't be one convened during their tenure as arbs. So the total burden on the Arbs across those four years should be de minimis.

As for scouring Arbcom files before !voting in RFAs, you could easily resolve that by declaring what you have and have not checked when you !vote. It may only rarely be relevant that Arbs do so, but on the occasional RFA where it is known that Arbs have extra information it would be of interest to the rest of us to know whether those of you who !vote in that RFA have used the extra information that you have. ϢereSpielChequers 15:59, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

You're missing my point, WereSpielChequers, in every way. Vetting candidates for RFA is absolutely not a responsibility of Arbcom; it's a responsibility of the community as a whole. We have a full plate as it is. As to your other point, it's unethical for every arbitrator who wishes to participate in an RFA to go scrolling through all of the Arbcom-L posts just to see what's there about any particular editor. It's also nearly technically impossible to do right now under our current set-up, which was put in place to prevent anyone from downloading the searchable archives; the only way to find an old post in the archives now is to open each individual post. In other words, unless someone on the Committee actually *remembers* a discussion about an editor, and when it was, and on which mailing list (we're currently up to 4 arbcom ones plus functionaries, plus AUSC), the expectation that is being established here is unrealistic. And because you're trying to establish it as "the right thing to do", it effectively disenfranchises Arbitrators (and potentially other functionaries) from participating at RFA. Risker (talk) 02:54, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

If I am not mistaken, in this case it would be ArbCOM's responsibility to do some due dilligence. If the process is to inform ArbCOM before running, then there is some responsibility to do some vetting. If you are going to make statements like John did, then it is absolutely imperative that he vetts the candidate throughly. When John made his post and provided a vigorous defense, it conveyed the message that John did a detailed vetting. (Recent posts have said this is not the case, but that is not what was conveyed last year.) Furthermore, when the name of ArbCOM is being invoked, then John and any other Arb watching the page should have chimed in clarifying the vetting process that was performed or not performed on Fae.---Balloonman ^{Poppa Balloon} 03:23, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

Thoughts on anonymous editing

Anonymous editing may seem great for encouraging participation, but it comes at a cost. This includes over 300,000 user and project pages (incl. talk pages) that contain a reference to sockpuppet speculations, allegations or related investigations and discussions. It encourages dishonesty and a lot of immature behaviour, even from people who one might have thought know how to behave in a professional manner (cf. Johann Hari). If we had pending changes for IP edits and each of us were required to identify to the Foundation in order to register an account, most of our BLP problems would disappear overnight. --JN466 11:29, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

Ugh

This situation is a mess. I don't see much of a way out other than a re-do on the RfA, which will probably result in the de-tooling of what seems to be an excellent and highly professional administrator. What's really needed, it would seem, is a topic ban for Fae off of editing pornography-related pages, loosely defined, and that's that, the end.

Of course, that's the same essential thing that caused ArbCom to needlessly waste Cirt as an administrator — and he was one of the very best closers at AfD in terms of honesty and adherence to policy... "If we can't trust him to edit on this topic or that, we can't trust him as an administrator, blah blah blah" — that was the sort of bogus thinking that ArbCom engaged in in his case... In reality, content creation and administration are very different functions at WP and one can be sketchy when engaging in one and examplary at another...

It's kind of annoying, because this does seem to be a person who's in their element at Wikipedia in an administrative capacity but who maybe shouldn't be editing articles on this or that. The problem is with the content disputes, not the administrative actions... But I think a lot of people are feeling like they were jobbed at the RfA, and the logic of that will end in a worst-of-all-worlds situation, with the guy pulled out of the niche in which he excels, remaining free to edit where he probably shouldn't.... Carrite (talk) 18:35, 6 February 2012 (UTC) Last edit: Carrite (talk) 18:41, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

I agree, and I both think and fear that you are right. Perhaps there could be a topic ban, or maybe just an advice about editing in that area (I'm not really convinced that the evidence supports a ban), coupled with recommendations about what Arbs and others should or shouldn't tell the community when an RfA is attempted following a clean start. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:45, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

A voluntary undertaking to stay away – both as Fæ and under any other user account – from editing or adminning adult entertainment-related topics, broadly construed, sounds like an excellent idea. Care to suggest it as an outside view? --JN466 19:11, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

Yes! --Tryptofish (talk) 22:26, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

In theory, he shouldn't be using his tools in those areas anyways. IF I remember correctly (and I'd have to double check) he promised not to use the tools in conjunction with the people or issues which brought about the RfCU in the first place.---Balloonman ^{Poppa Balloon} 22:54, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

He did indeed promise to avoid the articles where he'd been in conflict and he said he would "recuse myself of admin requests related to editors who gave an opinion in that discussion." That discussion being the RFC. Nobody seems to be alleging that he has broken those commitments, but now that the prior account is known it wouldn't be unreasonable to clarify and maybe even broaden that from the articles where he'd been in conflict to the topic. Adult entertainment is a little euphemistic, but he might prefer that wording to pornography. I wonder if Balloonman would you be willing to negotiate that sort of thing with him? I'm obviously too much of an ally of his for the community to accept me as the go between, whilst you were as you've said the chief opponent in his RFA, but at the same time unconnected to a certain badsite and all that unpleasantness. ϢereSpielChequers 23:21, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

• Per BalloonMan's remarks above here, I wonder if it might be worthwhile for an admin. to reclose any RfAs or other such discussions in that topic area that Fæ closed himself, whether for better or worse. No wrongdoing or prejudice is implied from this, but it would help such a promise to have them reclosed neutrally. CycloneGU (talk) 01:22, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

I endorse JN466's suggestion too. Such a clarification seems appropriate and would put an end to this tempest. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 04:33, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

@Carrite - User:Cirt was a head counter - rarely/never closed any contentious or complicated AFDs - almost never added an explanation of his reasons for closure and often closed as many as 10 AFD in a single minute. - Youreallycan 18:51, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

I'm not seeing anything close to consensus for a desysop. There are plenty of editors who are angry with one side or the other, but the calls for a desysop though loud are not the best supported views. My condolences though to anyone contemplating an RFA in similar circumstances. ϢereSpielChequers 18:57, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

The "only way out" is to support Fae here. If you "compromise" and leave him under a cloud, you're not ending anything. The exact same Inquisition will be in session tomorrow, with someone else in its sights. Besides, what kind of jury works on the basis that you compromise and say "guilty" on some counts just to get along? Wnt (talk) 01:02, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

Wnt, did you really intend to use the word "inquisition" to describe editors here who are utilizing the dispute resolution process? Are you aware of what took place during the Inquisition? Cla68 (talk) 03:55, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

In the literal sense, "Inquisition" is an exaggeration. But the difference is mostly that Wikipedia has much less power than civil/theocratic authorities. This is of some significance because at times, one thinks that Wikipedia's more anarchistic form of government provides a potential model for real life. (Occupy Wall Street might have such a perspective) But we see that as implemented here, this government is unstable, prone to phenomena one might call purges, witch-hunts, or inquisitions. One must unravel the source of the instability here if it is to be used as a model for a wider society. Wnt (talk) 01:03, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

I don't think that editors are using the dispute resolution process. There is no dispute. There is either a rather poor attempt to game the system to get a successful RFC/U against Fae, or a rather good attempt to create much wiki-drama. Rich Farmbrough, 22:02, 8 February 2012 (UTC).

List of editors accused by Cla68 of having made personal attacks during this RfC

In the section below, I listed editors, with diffs, who I felt violated WP:NPA during the course of this RfC. Some disagree, as TParis' comments illustrate, that the examples constituted violations of NPA. I stand firm in my opinion, however, that the diffs show ad hominem attacks which I consider to be violations of NPA. The editors I had listed, with supporting diffs, include: Russavia, Prioryman, Shrigley, Matty the Damned, Bluerasberry, Secret, Exok, AniMate, Wnt, FeydHuxtable, and WereSpielChequers. Cla68 (talk) 01:01, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

As an uninvolved admin (as far as I can tell I've never spoken to Fae or DC nor participated in this RFC), I'm hatting this section. Per WP:NPA, unfounded accusations of personal attacks are themselves personal attacks. Very few of these diffs even scratch the surface of WP:CIVIL and WP:NPA and instead are attempts to chill the discussion in this RFC.--v/r - TP 19:06, 8 February 2012 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
In the section below, I listed editors, with diffs, who I felt violated WP:NPA during the course of this RfC. Some disagree that the examples constituted violations of NPA. I stand firm in my opinion, however, that the diffs show ad hominem attacks which I consider to be violations of NPA. The editors I had listed, with supporting diffs, include: Russavia, Prioryman, Shrigley, Matty the Damned, Bluerasberry, Secret, Exok, AniMate, Wnt, FeydHuxtable, Fluffernutter, and WereSpielChequers. Cla68 (talk) 04:42, 9 February 2012 (UTC) If those comments you refer to were removed from this RfC and its talk page, would you agree to the removal of any responses to them? That is, I think the whole sub-topic - "they're just out to get Fae/no we're not" - is way off-topic for this RfC and should be deleted as such. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 04:52, 9 February 2012 (UTC) In the hidden section below, I have listed editors, with diffs, who I feel have violated WP:NPA for personal and/or ad hominem attacks, including unsupported accusations of homophobia and harassment. The list includes: Russavia, Prioryman, Shrigley, Matty the Damned, Bluerasberry, Secret, Exok, AniMate, Wnt, FeydHuxtable, Fluffernutter, and WereSpielChequers. This is only my opinion, of course. Cla68 (talk) 22:42, 8 February 2012 (UTC) Names and diffs The following users have, IMO, violated WP:NPA during this RfC, and/or have made unsupported accusations of homophobia, bigotry, or harassment or otherwise engaged in ad hominem attacks. Cla68 (talk) 05:51, 8 February 2012 (UTC): Russavia Russavia (talk · contribs · logs)- [28] [29] [30] [31] [32] [33] [34] [35] [36] Prioryman Prioryman (talk · contribs · logs)- [37] [38] [39] [40] [41] [42] [43] [44] [45] [46] [47] [48] [49] implied threat [50] [51] [52] [53] [54] Shrigley Shrigley (talk · contribs · logs)- [55] [56] [57] Matty the Damned Matty the Damned (talk · contribs · logs) - [58] Bluerasberry Bluerasberry (talk · contribs · logs)- [59] Secret Secret (talk · contribs · logs)- [60] "disruptive trolls" Exok Exok (talk · contribs · logs)- [61] AniMate AniMate (talk · contribs · logs)- [62] Wnt Wnt (talk · contribs · logs)- [63] [64] Note: I posted information documenting that the WR discussion did involve what is indeed a fallacious anti-gay argument by editor 'carbuncle' on Wikipedia Review, which User:Delicious carbuncle acknowledged. However, this lengthy discussion was deleted. I don't want this to be more trouble for Fae, so I'm not sure where to go with this except to say that my first diff above is absolutely not unjustified. I would suggest that this entire section of Random People's Diffs is irrelevant to Fae's case and should be thrown out entirely, since it may be inappropriate to properly rebut the argument. (The second statement does not even approach being a personal attack or an accusation, as indeed, it doesn't mention anyone!) Wnt (talk) 15:14, 8 February 2012 (UTC) No, you posted part of a comment that I made, leaving out some crucial context wherein I stated that discussion of Fæ's sexuality was a distraction from the real issue. No part of my comment was "anti-gay" and your misreading of my comment is mind-boggling. It is nonsense like this that has made me repeatedly ask Fæ to start an RFC/U if they feel that I am harassing them. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 16:01, 8 February 2012 (UTC) Wnt ... [Redacted by Wnt] don't believe that it's a reference to Fæ's homosexuality. You can tell by [Redacted by Wnt] --Michaeldsuarez (talk) 17:59, 8 February 2012 (UTC) (ec) I've decided to go along with Anthonyhcole's deletion of my commentary here, per WP:Linking to external harassment and #Is_the_sex_life_of_User:F.C3.A6_fair_game_for_points_scoring_in_an_RFC.3F. I'm deleting your fine points here now. I interpret this one way, some other people the other, the only way to make it clear who is right is to link to the original discussion, and that is against policy when the subject clearly objects. Mind you, I'm not saying I agree with that policy, but then again, I don't think Fae deserves this anyway. Wnt (talk) 18:23, 8 February 2012 (UTC) While I was writing the above, I see Anthonyhcole deleted the comment and now someone actually revdeled it even. Hopefully the stub I left is OK though. Wnt (talk) 18:24, 8 February 2012 (UTC) http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Requests_for_comment/F%C3%A6&diff=475798436 – I really don't appreciate that my attempt to defend someone from erroneously being portrayed as a gay-basher being called "harassment." I'm not so sure RevDel was used, so it didn't leave a log entry for transparency. The "suppressrevision" or "oversight" rights might have been used. --Michaeldsuarez (talk) 18:37, 8 February 2012 (UTC) I think a single line through the date is a WP:REVDEL. I think if it's "WP:oversight" you don't see anything at all. Wnt (talk) 19:54, 8 February 2012 (UTC) Use of the "deleterevision" right creates entries in the deletion log. The "suppressrevision" tool creates entries in the "suppression log" (viewable only to those with the "suppressionlog" right) instead of the deletion log. I have experience with these tools from non-WMF wikis. Since there isn't any entry for the deletion in the deletion log, then it must've been "suppressed" or "oversighted". Wnt, I suggest that you familiarize yourself with Special:ListGroupRights. --Michaeldsuarez (talk) 20:12, 8 February 2012 (UTC) I've not used these tools, but WP:Oversight says that using it leaves no edit summary or any other trace the edit was made. WP:REVDEL says that revdeling will not leave entries in the deletion log if performed by someone with oversight rights who checks a box not to leave a log entry. Wnt (talk) 20:25, 8 February 2012 (UTC) Note: It just doesn't matter as I would be EXTREMELY hard pressed to call either of those quotes a violation of NPA or to call either of those comment inappropriate.---Balloonman Poppa Balloon 18:27, 8 February 2012 (UTC) FeydHuxtable FeydHuxtable (talk · contribs · logs)- [65] [66] One would struggle to choose a finer pride of editors to share the naughty step with. FeydHuxtable (talk) 15:54, 8 February 2012 (UTC) WereSpielChequers WereSpielChequers (talk · contribs · logs)- [67] I'm curious as to why anyone would regard that as an attack - whether or not the Homophobic statements on that site have subsequently been deleted. Delicious Carbuncle does acknowledge that some of the editors there do make Homophobic comments, in that respect I agree with him. Happy to clarify or strikeout anything in that statement of mine that has gone over the line, but someone would need to tell me why they thought I'd crossed the line there. ϢereSpielChequers 18:39, 8 February 2012 (UTC) Your comments are disingenuous. Quite transparently so in the case of the one above. I am trying to be as open as possible here. I admit that there are comments made on WR that I would consider homophobic. There are comments made on Wikipedia that I find homophobic. That makes it "a site that allows homophobic comments" just like WR. You are trying to associate my username with "homophobic comments" despite the fact that I haven't actually made any. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 19:15, 8 February 2012 (UTC) I would say your alleging the RFC was related to the users sexuality is on sticky ground. Youreallycan 18:49, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

Discussion Re above allegations

Ok, I've reviewed most of the above allegations of "personal attacks" and half of them don't mention a person. Half of them aren't attacks. Yeah some of them are, but if these are being used as examples of personal attacks, then we've got a pretty thin skin. If we are going to start "highlighting" every opinion that differs from our own, then we are indeed in dire straights. If we are going to view the above as acceptable behavior, then I don't know what to say. For the most part it is nothing more than a collection of quotes from people who disagree with DC and/or question the entire validity of this RfCU. I think the entire section should be either boxed or preferably deleted... I see the above as nothing more than a bullying/intimidation tactics.---Balloonman ^{Poppa Balloon} 15:42, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

I agree with you that the intention is intimidatory but as someone who appears on the list I can tell you I regard it as a badge of honour. Exok (talk) 15:53, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, but the real badge of honor is when they start bitching about your over on Wikipedia Review.---Balloonman ^{Poppa Balloon} 16:02, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

NOTE: I've asked for an independent admin to come and weigh in on the appropriateness of this section.---Balloonman ^{Poppa Balloon} 18:37, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

As part of the dispute resolution process, I will be posting my concerns on the talk pages of each of those editors listed above. Again, unsupported allegations of homophobia and harassment, and other ad hominem attacks, are, not only dishonest and disingenuous, against Wikipedia policy and are unnacceptable. Cla68 (talk) 22:37, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

Discussion

Wikipedia Review deleted the threads in question, so how can I or anyone not involved in that conversation at the time evaluate the degree of anti-gay harassment that occurred on them? In any case, focusing on the anti-gay nature of such comments misses the more basic point that people there were apparently being canvassed in a non-neutral way to become involved in this and related discussions. Noting such canvassing and its effect on the discussion is appropriate behavior on Wikipedia. Wnt (talk) 15:53, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

What threads do you think were deleted? --SB_Johnny | ^talk 16:01, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

Checking my browser cache I find [redacting per discussion below and WP:HARASS on external links] I came to these from somewhere in the early discussion but I don't remember where. I'm having trouble finding the original reference to this URL here - there are traces of it on Google [redacting] doesn't get me anything. I didn't get anything from the Google cache or the Wayback Machine for the old thread content. Wnt (talk) 16:43, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

That thread is visible to anyone with an account on WR and more than a few posts (it's in the "Tar Pit"). There are no "homophobic attacks" there, though there is rather compelling proof of two accounts being operated by one person. That forum is configured to not allow google indexing, which is why google doesn't exactly give it to you (though google does of course index wikipedia, and therefore indexes the outgoing link you're referring to... it just can't actually see the content). --SB_Johnny | ^talk 17:23, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

And what about other threads relating to Fae? A lot of those threads are clearly visible, and there is homophobic attacks on him, and not to mention homophobic attacks on WMF as a result of those threads (which I will not link to due to them being revdel'd). Russavia ^{ლ(ಠ益ಠლ)} 17:36, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

Feel free to email the links to posts you believe are homophobic. Hate speech is not permitted on WR, and I will personally delete them if I agree with you, or explain why I disagree with you if I disagree with you. FWIW, the owner of the forum (who is now openly participating on WP) is rather open about her sexual preferences, and she's not exactly the conservative type. --SB_Johnny | ^talk 20:10, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

Nice one Cla68, but let me remind you that 27 editors so far agree with Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/Fæ#Outside_view_by_Russavia -- that in essence being that people from WR, including Delicious Carbuncle, have, and are engaging in harassment of Fae. Pointing this out to editors here is not a personal attack, and I will again go on the record as saying that there has been much homophobic bashing of Fae (and other editors) on WR in the past -- I know it, you know it, we all know it. Russavia ^{ლ(ಠ益ಠლ)} 16:59, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

And no such "bashing" has been evinced on the RfC/U here that I have seen (note the substantial number of editors agreeing with this point). Nice try - but the "homophobia" bit is not relevant here. Cheers. Collect (talk) 17:03, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

Of course it is relevant; I have seen some of the participants here says some of the most disgustingly homophobic things on WR -- I am not going to single anyone out, but when such things are said on WR, they aren't castigated for saying such things, but they are encouraged. It is a fact, that Fae has been harassed, and DC's part in that is clearly demonstrated.

And I will state again that DC's bringing up of the beach and Fae's photos smacks of homophobia -- it's hard to explain to anyone who isn't queer, but his lax reasoning for introducing those photos as part of this RFC, and defending vehemently his doing so with bunk reasoning, does tend to look somewhat homophobic. So sue me, if it is my belief that there are somewhat homophobic undertones to this entire RFC -- it isn't only being driven (at least on some parts) by other issues. Russavia ^{ლ(ಠ益ಠლ)} 17:19, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

Also, Cla68, if you want to do anything about it, you have two choices. Go and bitch about me on Bitchipedia (Wikipedia Review), or get an admin here to do something about it -- take it ANI or whatever. I really don't care for dishonest miscreants from WR using that site to undermine this project and its editors, and I would say that neither do many other editors here. And I won't stand one iota for harassment of any editor; which is why I have been vocal in this instance. This is my last comment; I am taking this train wreck off my watchlist, I've got better things to be doing that watching shit like this going down. Russavia ^{ლ(ಠ益ಠლ)} 17:36, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

An editor who went around saying that others who wished to retain depictions of Muhammad in the Muhammad article were, in so many words, a bunch of racist Islamophobes just earned himself a 1-year vacation. Casting other editors' as homophobic with no other support than "that's how it looks to me" is not a wise move here. Tarc (talk) 18:15, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

Again, making unsupported accusations of homophobia or bigotry against other editors/people for no other reason than to try to win an argument is beneath contempt and completely unacceptable. The comments by some participants in this RfC reflects extremely poorly on them and is far beneath the level of conduct expected of people who have been given the privilege of editing Wikipedia. Shame on them. I will finish this section soon. Cla68 (talk) 22:46, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

When this is over and tempers have settled, I hope level-headed editors will see Russavia's comments for what they are - character assassination. Until that time, I have already made a statement for the record that should address the charges made here, and I ask that editors read it rather than simply taking Russavia at his word. In different circumstances (i.e., if I were not considered a bad person) Russavia and Prioryman would have been blocked for their demonstrably false statements. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 23:08, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

To clarify the issue, could you release any comments you've made about Fae on WR that are in non-public (i.e "tar pit") forums?   Will Beback  talk  23:24, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

Will Beback, there are only a couple of non-public areas to which I have access. One is the "tar-pit" and the other is an area for frequent WR contributors in which discussions are usually mundane internal WR matters (i.e., blocking or restricting users). Very little that is said on WR is hidden from public view. Things that end up in the "tar pit" are usually pointless or off-topic squabbles between contributors. I'm sure Russavia would be happy to send you a link to an archive of the discussion which contained the WHOIS info. I think you will find it doesn't live up to its billing. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 23:53, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

Can you assure the community that there are not any threads in the WR "tar pit" which could be construed as homophobic, harassing, or other personal attacks or canvassing on Fae that have been posted by active Wikipedia editors?   Will Beback  talk  00:09, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

I dunno about DC, but I'm pretty sure I can. Good enough?

As far as Russavia is concerned, I offered earlier to assuage her concerns (above), and reminded her of my offer on her talk page a few minutes ago. Misunderstandings happen, and outsiders (whether they be "non-LGBT" people, "non-WR" people, etc.) often misunderstand the insiders (LGTB people, WR people, etc.). --SB_Johnny | ^talk 00:23, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

So we have your assurance that the "tar pit" discussions on Fae haven't mentioned him sexual orientation, they don't make defamatory remarks about him, and they don't mention any ongoing Wikipedia threads?   Will Beback  talk  00:45, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

No, no, and no... but that wasn't what you asked earlier. In any case, that thread is (as far as I know) the only one in the "tar pit" that's about Fae (the tar pit is normally dedicated to internal PvP crap... kinda like many of the WP:AN/I threads, but without any attempt to pretend it's something other than a grudge match and/or dogpile). We usually prefer to keep the threads that embarrass the cabals in public so that inquiring minds can be enlightened. --SB_Johnny | ^talk 01:05, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

So then what do the "Tar Pit" forums say about Fae?   Will Beback  talk  01:48, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

Log in and look for yourself, m'lord. There's nothing there worth fussing about. --SB_Johnny | ^talk 02:17, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

I don't have an account there and I'm not interested in getting one. The question here is whether people on WR, some of whom are active WP editors, have discussed Fae's sexual orientation, etc.   Will Beback  talk  03:09, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

Also, is the WR posting by DC which published Fae's home address and phone number still accessible in the "tar pit"?   Will Beback  talk  02:11, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

The post is there, but the contact info (as mentioned earlier and elsewhere) is not. --SB_Johnny | ^talk 02:17, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

So DC posted a private email someone sent to him, without permission, and he hasn't removed it?   Will Beback  talk  03:09, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

Correct. It was moved out of the public area at my request because of concerns about Fæ's privacy unrelated to the already-redacted address info. Those concerns are now moot, so I have no problem with it being moved back into public view, but that decision is not mine to make. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 14:10, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

SMH... if those are the most egregious examples of NPA we have, then this is by Wikipedia standards an extremely civil discourse. But more are to come, I'm certain that Cla is going to include my name somewhere in that list as well.---Balloonman ^{Poppa Balloon} 23:28, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

Russavia, you say that you are "not going to single anyone out," but that's exactly what you should be doing. If indeed there is homophobic harassment on Wikipedia Review from participants in this RfC, then you are doing a disservice to this discussion by refusing to link to them. Neutral observers' understanding of the discussion would certainly be enhanced if they were able to identify the homophobes participating in the RfC and discount their opinions. You're already tarring a lot of editors in good standing with this brush; why don't you offer some specifics so something can be done about the problem? A Stop at Willoughby (talk) 23:41, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

I should note that in following that same impulse below, I added to Fae's annoyances and was out of line with WP:Linking to external harassment. While I would oppose that policy in a vote given the chance, I really don't want to be part of Fae's problems either; in any case it doesn't seem like an option right now. Wnt (talk) 16:58, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for noting that. I've written a pretty lengthy comment below at #Wikipedia Review 2. A Stop at Willoughby (talk) 02:27, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

"Hate speech is not allowed on WR" ... dear me, I though that was supposed to be part of its "chan" style charm. And I don't think they are harassing Fae for homophobic reasons, but simply because they can. I think it fairly well supported that members on WR have made remarks there that would see them at least indef blocked here. Certainly I will endorse Russavia in saying that bringing up the beach smacks of homophobia, it smacks more of an attempt to tap latent homophobia in others - which would I suppose qualify it as hate speech - certainly there is nothing brought up of any merit. But for me the fact that this group have attempted to pursue someone across several websites over a number of years, over nothing, is proof of some kind of personal animus, and quite severe enough to destroy their credibility. I don't really care if they hate Fae for his sexuality or for citing a source which fails to support the particular name of an award. In either case they are detrimental to the project until and unless they stop this behaviour. Rich Farmbrough, 00:25, 8 February 2012 (UTC).

All, or at the very least, most of this homophobia stuff above in your post rich is pure exaggeration - the Ash account was a POV pushing BLP violating account of the worst indefinite ban candidate type, on a par with the two LBGT focused and now banned editors, Benjiboi and Otto4711 - this is the primary reason for all of this - not the fact of his sexual declarations. Youreallycan 00:30, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

Youreallycan, your objectivity on LGBT issues has been questioned before, so your opinion on this matter needs to be viewed with that in mind.   Will Beback  talk  00:46, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

Everyones objectivity gets questioned here - I opposed a dubious BLP cat. Your poisoning here is unwelcome - I thought we were getting on better, sadly not. Youreallycan 00:48, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

You're accusing an editor of being "the worst indefinite ban candidate type", and you say that I'm the one "poisoning" the discussion?   Will Beback  talk  01:48, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

The old account, the Ash account - if it had continued on the way it was going, yes. I have on more than one occasion stated that the Fae account is a pretty much totally reformed beneficial contributor. See here for one of my first posts to this talkpage for my primary position. Youreallycan 10:02, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

Can you document anything about POV-pushing? About "BLP violation" beyond impossibly strained arguments (i.e. that because references about porn are intrinsically unreliable you can't use them in a BLP, or somebody 'should have known' that taking a photo out on a public street is verboten)? About the "worst indefinite ban type" (any ANI complaint that amounted or could amount to anything at all)? Any reason to group Ash with the two editors you mentioned apart from sexual orientation and/or areas of interest? Any diffs or other 'meat' to this at all? Wnt (talk) 00:56, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

Its quite clear - to remind you of the simple historic, without the need to present any diffs - there were issues and multiple complaints about user Ash's contributions to LBGT articles - a UserRFC was opened - User Ash's response was to leave that account and clean start, due to that leaving the RFC was closed - he then refocused his contributions became an admin without declaring the Ash account. Although the clean start account has been greatly improved, there has been one or two minor issues reflective of the past - these are the issues that bring us here, not latent homophobia - as for diffs - the Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/Ash has been sidestepped. Youreallycan 01:07, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

You said some very specific things, and I don't see evidence for any of those. If you had that kind of evidence, who knows, I might agree with you. Wnt (talk) 01:20, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

The crux is that it is disruptive to bring an RFC/U for "one or two minor issues", especially when they have not been previously discussed on the article talk pages. Rich Farmbrough, 01:39, 8 February 2012 (UTC).

No, you misunderstand the thrust of my argument. As far as this thread goes there are several points I wanted to make (thought I had made):

1. The satirical website Wikipedia Review is a different kind of forum than WP. Making outrageous remarks, is banter in that environment. People may well condemn those who allow that kind of environment to flourish, or they may not, but it is a type of code switching and we shouldn't necessarily read homophobia into it. (Immaturity, stupidity and crassness are another matter.)
2. Secondly given that the choice of diffs for the Fae account were both very poor as examples of problematic editing, and almost all about LGBT subjects, I can quite understand why someone might think they were motivated by homophobia, even more that someone might think they were targeted at bringing others "onside" who the proposer might hope would infer that Fae had a lifestyle they would disapprove of. For this reason, if the problem were endemic, as claimed, the choice of diffs was triply bad.
3. Thirdly that whether this was the motivation or not is irrelevant. The RFC brings no significant unresolved disputes to the table (which is why it is supposed to be certified) - the sources I checked were not even contested on the article talk pages.
4. Fourthly that bringing an RFC/U (let alone the other actions) on such pathetic grounds, speaks badly about the person who brings it, damages their credibility, brings the project into disrepute, and wastes every-ones time.

Rich Farmbrough, 01:32, 8 February 2012 (UTC).

Rich, if you were aware of the situation at the time, you know that there was much discussion about the specific issues in the RFC/U and others, even if that discussion did not occur on article talk pages. You seem to have ignored the comments and endorsements of other editors (including 4 who were admins) who participated before Fæ pretended to leave Wikipedia. At the time, I was confident that Ash end up up with some form of sanctions, and I suspected that this might become a larger ArbCom case involving BLP, gay porn articles, Ash, Benjiboi, paid editing, and sockpuppetry. Our retrospective assessments differ widely and the truth is probably somewhere in between the two. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 14:21, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

I wasn't more than obliquely aware of any of the issues (that there was controversy over a lot of gay porn actors notability) as far as I can remember. And I haven't read the RFC/U Ash or the archives on Steffans.

For me the critical point here is:

• The locus of the RFC/u Ash was sourcing on gay porn actors. Neither User:Ash nor User:Fae are (as I understand it) editing in that area. This then, is a resolved dispute.

Additional sourcing issues brought up against User:Fae are extremely weak, and would not stand up an RFC/U on their own. The matter of RFA was added later, although you also say "Concerns about Fæ's RfA should likely be addressed elsewhere", so that should probably be retracted from the document.

For the Weinberger and beach articles, not seeing any relevant comment on the talk page I checked "what links here". Of course they may have cited only diffs, but certainly it doesn't look like there were attempt to resolve either of these disputes, successful or otherwise, involving any, let alone two of the certifying editors.

Rich Farmbrough, 16:05, 8 February 2012 (UTC).

Nothing good can come from a thread like this, I think. This is basically an opinion piece. CycloneGU (talk) 01:24, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

• Two points. First, expressing an opinion that a person is being harassed is not a personal attack. And second, if all the circumstances were the same except that Fae was heterosexual, had written badly sourced articles about Pokemon characters, and the latest diff was an edit about dog-walking on a beach and not nudism, this page wouldn't exist. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 02:05, 8 February 2012 (UTC)
  • You are right about the first point. I wish you were right about the second. Rich Farmbrough, 02:20, 8 February 2012 (UTC).
    
    • On the contrary, accusing an editor of harassing someone is a personal attack if not backed-up by serious evidence, as harassment is, in many cases, a crime. Cla68 (talk) 02:22, 8 February 2012 (UTC)
      • There is no doubt that [{User:Fae]] is being harassed. Absolutely none. And you are certainly correct that some of the behaviour on and off wiki may be at the very least sailing close to illegality in one or more jurisdictions. However determining here who is a harasser, and who is seriously interested in trying to resolve disputes is not without grey areas of its own. It is unfortunate, to say the least, that this RFC/U was brought on such thin grounds, more unfortunate that no attempt was made to follow procedure (which is there to prevent precisely that problem), and worse that other matters have been conflated with the "sourcing issues", worst of all that there were attempts to link a user account to a real world identity, contrary to common decency and WP:SOCK section entitled "privacy". That does not stop us assuming good faith, though the combination is stretched mighty thin. The fact that DC is aware of, and contributed to, attacks on Commons and the satirical site Wikipedia Review takes good faith right to the breaking point. Rich Farmbrough, 12:51, 8 February 2012 (UTC).
        

Tryptofish's second view, re arbitrators and RfA

In the RfC, Tryptofish has stated:

Arbitrators and other users who have special access to confidential information are advised that the community wishes them to use caution in recommending candidates for WP:RfA and similar permissions, when those candidates have previously edited under an account not known to the community as a whole. An endorsement in such circumstances should mean that an overwhelming majority of the community would have no concerns if the information about the previous account were to have been revealed, not simply that the user making the endorsement does not have such concerns.

How far does this apply? I ask only because not long after Fæ became an admin, I worked out the identity of the old account. It didn't require a considerable amount of work. I didn't tell anyone because I respect people's privacy: I edit under my real name, but other people do not and they have work or personal reasons why they don't want to link their real-life identity with their online identity, or to at least have a certain level of distance between them. I didn't want to drag up issues from the past, and I believe in fresh starts and second chances.

So, my question is, how far does this suggestion go? In Fæ's case, the recommendation came from an Arb. But in my own case, I'm both an administrator and an OTRSer, and thus have access to confidential information. Does this mean I must exercise caution in recommending candidates for RfA even when I come across confidential information that might affect an RfA but not as a direct consequence of handling confidential/sensitive information as an admin or OTRSer (or, indeed, checkusers, oversighters, arbs, WMF staff, developers etc.)?

In addition, the requirement that the community would have no concerns about information: that's pretty subjective. The community have been known to have concerns about all sorts of silly things if enough people stir enough drama at ANI. —Tom Morris (talk) 02:37, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

• Frankly, I think the community expects everyone who recommends an editor for RfA to use caution. As I have explained above to WereSpielChequers, it's unethical for an arbitrator to go searching through all the Arbcom-L files to gather information about a particular editor unless they are directly involved in a matter that directly affects the Committee; checking them out over a candidate one might put forward for RfA is not appropriate use of that information. Further, it's also nearly technically impossible to do right now under our current set-up, which was put in place to prevent anyone from downloading the searchable archives; the only way to find an old post in the archives now is to open each individual post. In other words, unless someone on the Committee actually *remembers* a discussion about an editor, and when it was, and on which mailing list (we're currently up to 4 arbcom ones plus functionaries, plus AUSC), the expectation that is being established here is unrealistic. And because you're trying to establish it as "the right thing to do", it effectively disenfranchises Arbitrators (and potentially other functionaries) from nominating or supporting RfA candidates. Risker (talk) 02:59, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

I think the question becomes one of which hat are you wearing. Are you wearing the hat of an Arb/OTRS/Check User or are you posting as an individual. The problem in this specific case is that John was acting in both roles. Had John come in and simply made the opening statement and addressed all questions as an Arb, things might have gone very differently. Instead he goy involved in the RfA on a personal level, this blurred the line and created the controversy. If you are nominating a candidate or !voting as a user, that is one thing. If you are appealing to your Arb status, then that conveys a different set of parameters.---Balloonman ^{Poppa Balloon} 03:14, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

1)Could you show me the diff where John says he is acting on behalf of Arbcom? I see lots where he says he isn't. Perhaps I am missing something.

2) What you're saying isn't what is written in the proposal; it's your interpretation of the OP's expectations. This is exactly where we get breakdowns in communication. Tryptofish has to explain what he means here, whether it's my interpretation (we're supposed to take steps other users are not able to take) or yours, which is something entirely different. Risker (talk) 03:23, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

There are three places where John appealed to his knowledge as an Arb. First, his very first post wherein he indicated that Fae had contacted ArbCOM---that set the stage for all future posts. He was no longer acting in the role of a typical user, he told the users that he was contacted as a member of ArbCOM. Reviewed the candidate, and could tell us that Fae had changed in many ways since the initial case. Second, when he responds to me that I'm just going to have to trust him. Again, he was appealing to knowledge that he had as a result of his being a member of ArbCOM. Third, when he tells us that he's seen a lot of bullshit clean starts. Again, alluding to his role as a member of ArbCOM. As soon as John made his initial post as a member of ArbCOM he should have supported and remained silent unless there were other issues related directly to ArbCOM. Instead he became one of Fae's biggest supporters and his knowledge of Fae's prior account conveyed more value to his stance than others. John participation in the RfA was not seen as a normal user, but rather as a member of ArbCOM.---Balloonman ^{Poppa Balloon} 03:34, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

As for point two. Reread the proposal again:

Arbitrators and other users who have special access to confidential information are advised that the community wishes them to use caution in recommending candidates for WP:RfA and similar permissions, when those candidates have previously edited under an account not known to the community as a whole. An endorsement in such circumstances should mean that an overwhelming majority of the community would have no concerns if the information about the previous account were to have been revealed, not simply that the user making the endorsement does not have such concerns.

The proposal is explicitly dealing with candidates whom the arb/otrs/check user has special knowledge about that the general public doesn't know about---and when "recommending candidates" or providing an "endorsement" that they should be specially aware that they have this priviledged information. It has zero bearing on 99% of RfA nominations and would only have bearing on the Arb if they are providing an endorsement as an arb/OTRS/CU---which John did in this case. IMHO, John failed the community in this instance.

(Note, my comments may sound harsh to John, but I am not saying he is a bad Arb nor am I saying that he is a bad person. I am merely saying that in this specific case, he blew it.)---Balloonman ^{Poppa Balloon} 16:00, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict × several) Err, this is off-topic here, but it does seem to me that security is getting in the way of productivity. I'm sure it's possible to have a secure archive search function implemented, which only authorized users can access. For example using this. ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 03:24, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

It doesn't work on Mailman, which is what we're currently stuck with until we can work out other arrangements with the help of the WMF. Risker (talk) 03:34, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

Maybe you should contact this or this guy. ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 04:02, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

I think there are a bunch of questions to me here. Please point out if I missed anything.

• Tom Morris asks about how far my proposal goes. Here's how I intended it (your mileage may differ). It's very much a matter of how the user with access to confidential information presents what they say in the RfX. So, for example, if you simply !vote "support" and say something like "good answers to questions", then I think that all you are representing is that you reviewed the questions and answers that are visible to everyone, and my proposal wouldn't apply. Users who infer, "this person is an Arb/admin/OTRS etc., and therefore must have investigated the earlier account, and therefore is representing to the community that the candidate was OK in that earlier account" are inferring something that the !voter actually never said, and that's their fault, not the !voter's. On the other hand, if the user (as John did in this case) says that they have reviewed the previous account and the community should be confident that the previous account would not affect the RfX adversely, then that's where there should be an understanding that the community expects what my proposal suggests. As for Tom's question about having realized that Fae had been Ash, I see nothing wrong with remaining quiet about it on the basis of respecting privacy. The issue would only arise were you to make a representation about what you knew.
• Tom also points out the subjectivity of what the community would or wouldn't think. I agree. I figure that users who are trusted with advanced permissions or positions should be able to make a pretty good estimate, though, and be prepared to stand by what they choose to say. That includes recognizing fringe views within the community for what they are. And please note that I tried to frame my proposal as "advice". It certainly would not lead to any kind of sanction against someone who didn't think of some kind of idiosyncratic complaint.
• As Risker discusses, I certainly don't think that Arbs are suddenly being assigned to review RfX candidates, nor to go on de novo investigations. I think it only comes up when someone contacts ArbCom and asks for a review, as Fae did. In that case, only an Arb who assumes the kind of role that John did should exercise caution in the way that I proposed. The Committee as a whole is obviously not responsible for what a single member says by way of an endorsement, and it's up to that single member to say to what extent they are or are not speaking for the entire Committee.
• Risker also asks me to clarify what I meant with respect to Balloonman's comment. Again, I think it comes down to what the endorser says. (My take is that John was speaking as an Arb, but as an individual Arb, not as a spokesperson for the rest of the Committee.) My opinion is that those with access to confidential information "are supposed to take steps" (per Risker) of a special nature if, and only if, they are making representations to the community about things the community cannot see. If they are just commenting as an individual, they don't necessarily have to, although then they should comment only on what anyone would know as an individual. It would also be prudent to make clear in what capacity they were commenting.

--Tryptofish (talk) 00:23, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

Is the sex life of User:Fæ fair game for points scoring in an RFC?

This RFC/U is now an extension of Wikipedia Review to post defamatory speculation about my sex life. This is a misuse of Wikipedia talk pages and itself fails to meet the fundamental principle that Editors should interact with each other in a respectful and civil manner. I ask that the speculation about risky sexual practices is removed from the discussion above and deleted from the page history. It is completely irrelevant to an RFC/U created to present a case with regard to my use of citations in articles.

Many unfounded personal, vindictive and inflammatory things about me have been stated on Wikipedia Review in a sustained attempt to smear my character over the last two months and there is no benefit for anyone reposting the details of unsourced allegations and speculations on Wikipedia. The persistent stalking has been particularly damaging as amongst other things I have had to close down my public Linkedin profile, take down my family history website, remove my Facebook page content, advise University College to avoid including my name on joint projects and advise the British Library about the increased risk of harassment for our future work together in my role as a trustee of WMUK. The repeated deliberate use of my full legal name in the context of a variety of sexual allegations, including the promotion of paedophile images and adultery, is causing me professional damage when it comes to any possible future bids for contract work, as a simple Google search now shows this defamatory rubbish on the first page of results. Perhaps the Wikipedians and banned users who have sadistically pursued me on Wikipedia Review and repeated this material in an email campaign, an on-wiki campaign and argue the case for continuing their sport, whether under named accounts or anonymously, gain satisfaction from my distress and that of my husband.

The Karrine Steffans nickname discussion has been used as a justification for making public speculation about my personal life for the purposes of amusement and ridicule. Please keep in mind that Aaron, who raised this BLP complaint, withdrew it early on in the RFC/U and apologised for including it (see User_talk:Fæ/2012#Statement_with_regard_to_Karrine_Steffans_article) as the matter was resolved at the time (last summer). The fact is that Steffans published this material in her autobiography. I have never published my full legal name with claims about my sex life.

I am proud to say that I have been with the same man for 22 years, Simon and I were married in 2005 on the first day that civil partnerships were legally recognized in the UK. My love is far more important to me than my unpaid voluntary work with the WMUK charity or my hobby of contributing to Wikipedia and Wikimedia Commons. Had Simon asked me to withdraw from these projects I would have done so without hesitation, he understands why contributing to the preservation of open knowledge is a cause worth supporting and absorbs so much of my time. To reduce my personal life to dirty sexual gossip as part of winning points in an RFC discussion is shameful for everyone involved in making this happen, regardless of which side of any debate you are on. --Fæ (talk) 11:20, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

The only problem with such a screed is that this RFC/U has not been used to be defamatory about your sex life. Thus all this seems likely to do is muddy the waters which had not been muddied by others here. Cheers. Collect (talk) 12:13, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

See #Wnt_rejoinder above. --Fæ (talk) 12:16, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

And? I fail to see how that post adds to yours in any way here. The issues posed at this RFC/U have had zilch to do with your "sex life". Collect (talk) 13:08, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

Fae, I think the only reason it keeps coming up here is that a few of the people supporting you (not you yourself, it should be said) have tried to frame other people's criticisms and concerns as being some sort of anti-LGBT plot. It's nasty, and the obvious answer to the question in the header is no, your sex life is nobody's business but yours and whomever you choose to spend your life with. I strongly suspect that if you asked them to stop, the issue would quickly go "thud". --SB_Johnny | ^talk 12:46, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

Fæ, while I think that much of what you say above is inaccurate, I wholeheartedly agree that the material is not relevant and has no place here. If you can get the other participants to agree, I would have no objection to removal of the comments made by Wnt, any responses to those comments, and this section. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 13:04, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

I already deleted selected comments. After further thought, I've now deleted the entire subthread. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 13:12, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

I am inclined to agree that Fae is partially feeding the trolls with this posting. However seen in the broader context of the onslaught across a number of websites (and I am certain that I have seen only part of it, and WR is far from being the worst offender), and in the light of lack of unresolved disputes being cited in the RFC/U I can totally sympathise with his desire to post it. I have no objection to removal of this section. Rich Farmbrough, 13:42, 8 February 2012 (UTC).

Indeed, going over Wikipedia:Linking to external harassment, I have to admit that I was way out of line with the policy there, and so his posting here was very much appropriate. Indeed, so far I have not seen him accused here of doing anything as bad. Wnt (talk) 15:57, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

To clarify. Wnt posted a link to an off-wiki conversation as well as some selected excerpts, in an attempt to support an argument about off-wiki harassment of Fae. A conversation ensued, involving other excerpts. Nothing in the discussion addressed the on-wiki behaviour or any relevant off-wiki behaviour of Fae. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 14:23, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

It took me a remarkably long time for me to comprehend that Fae was really objecting to my posting, but facing that fact, I'll leave out the link. I don't want to be part of the problem here. But note that Delicious Carbuncle, here, claimed credit for a statement 'carbuncle' made on WR which seems very much to be based on fallacious anti-gay reasoning. The problem is, he naturally disputes my interpretation here, and the more argument, the more pointless speculation is made about Fae's private life. Only the posting itself tells the story, and that I can't link to now. The real problem is the entire section by Cla68, which calls people out to document their statements that harassment is going on. We shouldn't call people out to cite their sources if it's going to create a problem for them to do so. Wnt (talk) 15:39, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

Indeed. As the broader harassment is clearly causing Fae RL distress, it would be good if a bold admin or someone with staff rights could delete this entire RfC. Cla68 and the WR accounts could then be cautioned to stay away from Fae or face an immediate block. Unless of course Fae wants this left open as evidence of the harassment. FeydHuxtable (talk) 15:54, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

I am getting tired of having to defend myself from the outright lies on the part of people like Russavia and Prioryman, and the type of nonsense that Wnt spouts. There was nothing "anti-gay" about comment that Wnt quoted here, except in their obviously confused mind. It is remarkable that people here can be so outraged by off-wiki comments that most of them have not even bothered to read for themselves, yet have no problem allowing serious unsubstantiated allegations to be made on-wiki in clear violation of WP:NPA. Different rules apply to "people we don't like", as usual. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 16:09, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

None of the references to WR in this RfC are relevant or appropriate. If there is a case to be made about off-wiki harassment, it can be made elsewhere. I'd favour stripping all such comments and threads out of this discussion. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 18:54, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

Me too, the same distraction method was tried to railroad User:Cirt's RFC user. This whole tangential discussion has gone way to far off track and should be closed. Youreallycan 18:56, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

The whole imbroglio (AN/I RFC/U) appears to have been triggered by Carbuncle seeing User:Fae's RL name on the list of WMUK trustees on WR, and deciding to take some kind of action. This somewhat makes a mockery of the suggestion that this is a normal process triggered by poor referencing. It confirms beyond doubt that DC's actions are targeted at the person, not the editing. Rich Farmbrough, 21:59, 8 February 2012 (UTC).

If you have problems with DC's behaviour, start an RfCU. An RfC was opened on Ashley. He "left" so it was suspended. He's back so it's continued. Please address the issue, Ashley's editing. If that had been done from the beginning this would have been over by now. Comments like yours and statements made by editors listed in the next comment by Cla68 have done nothing to resolve this discussion, and have just compounded Fae's distress and the distress of the editors you accuse. Would you consider striking or redacting your comment, as inappropriate for this forum? It would be very appropriate for you to start an RfC on the inappropriate on- and off-wiki behaviour you and others are highlighting here, but this isn't the place. This is for addressing Ashley's editing. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 02:15, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

DC and the other certifiers of this RfC have appropriately limited the issues they raised to Fae's on-wiki behavior. The ones to blame for introducing Fae's "sex life" into this discussion are editors like Russavia and Wnt who have made unsupported, ad hominem claims of homophobia. They were wrong to do so and definitely owe Fae an apology. Cla68 (talk) 22:49, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

I did apologize to Fae - for citing the source on which I based my "unsupported" statement. Wnt (talk) 23:20, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

Suppression requested for fairness

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Requests_for_comment/F%C3%A6&action=history – I don't believe that it's fair for Wnt's allegations about Delicious carbuncle to remain accessible, while my rebuttal isn't. At the moment, anyone can view the edit history and see Wnt's allegations about Delicious carbuncle is homophobic, but they won't be able to view any strong rebuttal of it. If Wnt's allegations are to remain in the edit history without a proper rebuttal accessible to reviewers, then I believe that any further discussion will be severely biased against Delicious carbuncle. If my revision is to be kept suppressed, then I would asked for revisions 475684225–475753974 and revision 475764298 should be suppressed as well in order to keep this from being one-sided. --Michaeldsuarez (talk) 19:02, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

And if we suppress that, then we should suppress any statements that Fae exaggerated the role of anti-gay sentiments also. By the time we finish, we'd have suppressed everything and simply deleted this whole RfC. You know, maybe that's not a bad idea... Wnt (talk) 19:18, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Requests_for_comment/F%C3%A6&diff=475795227 – Perhaps they should unsuppress my counter-argument so that those going through the page history have access to both sides rather than only one side. --Michaeldsuarez (talk) 19:21, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

Also, if they don't suppress what Wnt said, then what was the point of suppressing what I said? The content that Fæ didn't want anything to see are still accessible. Since the content that Fæ was complaining about is still accessible, then the suppression of my revision doesn't accomplish anything other than to censor the counter-argument. If Wnt's argument is still accessible in the page history, then my counter-argument should be accessible as well. --Michaeldsuarez (talk) 19:31, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

Actually, he does have a point, and as I've acknowledged above, my posting of the link was generally contrary to policy. "Linking to external harassment, attacks, or to sites which routinely engage in such attacks is usually inappropriate, and should be done only after careful thought has been given to the likely effect on the victim." If I gave any thought to the effect, I'd be lying to say it was careful. I will not oppose revdeling my edits containing the link as he suggests. (nor un-revdeling his edit if that outcome is preferred) Wnt (talk) 19:46, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

I am responsible for the suppression. I have reviewed it and believe it was proper; however, multiple links and references to off-wiki material cannot all be suppressed. In the end, editor discretion is required. User:Fred Bauder Talk 20:22, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

Without the ability to access my counter-argument, what do you suppose users will base their discretion on? --Michaeldsuarez (talk) 20:35, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

Addendum: "However, multiple links and references to off-wiki material cannot all be suppressed." Then in reality, you haven't actually done anything to safeguard Fæ's privacy. Since you admit that safeguarding Fæ's privacy is impractical, all that suppressing my comment did was to censor the counter-argument. You might as well unsuppress my comment so that a counter-argument may exist. No one, even Fæ, truly benefits from the suppression of that comment, but the suppression will cause Delicious carbuncle and his or her reputation to suffer. The suppression accomplishes the opposite of what it meant to do. --Michaeldsuarez (talk) 21:02, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

Wikipedia Review - editors

It should be clearly understood by those reading this page that many of the contributors to this debate are active editors at the satirical website Wikipedia Review.

While Delicious Carbuncle denies "co-ordinating attacks" on Fae on that site, it is used, by him and others, to post information about what Fae is doing, on and off Wikipedia, and to report on what is happening. And of course they then go off to the appropriate pages, using whatever account or socking method they prefer and join in. I don't see them supporting Fae, therefore it seems not unreasonable to say they are co-ordinating attacks.

Members include

• Delicious Carbuncle (who raised the AN/I and RFC after reading about Fae on WR)
• Tarc (who reverted my de-listing of the RFC, despite the fact that it was not properly certified)
• Bali ultimate
• Cla68
• SB Johnny
• Michaeldsuarez

Most of these users are scarcely seen around Wikipedia, yet they all suddenly turn up here.

I think the last smidgen of assumed good faith just evaporated. Rich Farmbrough, 22:40, 8 February 2012 (UTC).

This is complete nonsense. And yes I post there too. Particularly the claim that Most of these users are scarcely seen around Wikipedia, yet they all suddenly turn up here. - most of these users have done far more to improve the "encyclopedia" part of Wikipedia (rather than the "pointless drama board" part of it) than you, or many of the other participants here have.

And then you get crap like this: using whatever account or socking method they prefer and join in. - is there an SPI you want to file on any of these people? No? Then stop adding even more unfounded allegations to the whole mess. Accusations of socking are serious matter. Above, Cla's comments were hatted simply because supposedly "unfounded allegations" of personal attacks (despite the fact that these "allegations" were supported by numerous diffs) are personal attacks themselves. Take that to heart. There's not a shred of evidence of sock puppetry here. Block time.VolunteerMarek 22:47, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

User:PumknPi is a sock of blocked WR editor Tungsten Carbide. Rich Farmbrough, 14:56, 10 February 2012 (UTC).

And there's nothing "satirical" about Wikipedia Review, whatever that is supposed to mean (I'm guessing trying to portray it as "non-serious"). Yes, the average level of common sense and sense of humor there are a bit more developed than here on Wikipedia. But the criticisms are very serious.VolunteerMarek 22:49, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

Greogry Kohs on WR boasts of having bought an admin account. Regulars boast of their multiple socks. A banned user returned to attack Fae on Commons. A throwaway account attacked him here. At least one account on this talk page has been blocked as a sock.

And if you don't understand why I say "satirical website", never mind. It is more polite than "hate website" which is what most of it is. And maybe you are right it is block time, but I am always reluctant to block people. Rich Farmbrough, 22:58, 8 February 2012 (UTC).

As far as I can tell Gregory Kohs is not one of the people you list above. You made an allegation of sock puppetry and then listed some names. If your intent was to accuse some abstract "others" of sock puppetry, but not the user names you actually listed, then please strike your comment and/or clarify it. Otherwise, file an SPI report against DC, Tarc, BU, Cla68, SBJ and Michaelsdsuarez. And let's see how those go...VolunteerMarek 00:24, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

Rich, where were you when BADSITES was being proposed as a policy or guideline? They could have used your support since the initiative failed. That was back in the days when some people would actually oppose candidates in RfAs for having WR accounts. Cla68 (talk) 23:05, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

I don't think that is useful, although I understand why people would. Wikipedia Review does serve a function, and if it didn't exist someone would have to create it. Many highly respected editors (I would include Volunteer Marek in that category) have accounts there. Nonetheless there are things that go on there that are puerile vindictiveness, not surprisingly given that it also attracts banned users who can't let go, people who run out-and-out attack sites, and people who are there to troll WR since they can no longer troll WP. This is all very fine and when that sort of thing that happens in that forum is pretty irrelevant to WP. But when the maelstrom is exported back to WP, that is a bad thing, and those who are unaware of its source should be told. Rich Farmbrough, 23:21, 8 February 2012 (UTC).

Rich, in your opinion, could any discussion or directing to threads on Wikipedia from WR be considered off-wiki canvassing in the appropriate circumstances? I daresay this entire RfC is such an affair. And that is assuming good faith. CycloneGU (talk) 00:47, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

I have no doubt they could be considered canvassing, and indeed much worse, that is the nature of that website. It is to share any "dirt" either with the stated intention of using it to "reform" Wikipedia or destroy it, depending on the user. Or of course just for the "lulz". Rich Farmbrough, 02:21, 9 February 2012 (UTC).

See ad hominem and count how many times "logical fallacy" appears on the page.--Peter cohen (talk) 23:25, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

This is not ad hominem. All these users have been active in WR discussions about Fae, and have turned up here. Maybe there are more. Rich Farmbrough, 23:29, 8 February 2012 (UTC).

I think Rich makes a good point about WR, but so far I'm not aware of actual socking involved - rather, this is a WP:CANVASS problem, as readers of that site may well be recruited in a non-neutral way. Now WP:CANVASS is by nature an ad hominem argument in every application. I do not support WP:BADSITES, and I think the related language in WP:Linking to external harassment is practically unworkable even when I'm favorably disposed toward its purpose. The key reforms we need here are 1) to simply be willing to stand up in support of good editors and to reject cases against them that amount to a whole big pile of nothing and 2) to reject or significantly trim back overbearing "ethical" guidelines like BLP which can be used by the ambitious to gain "editorial control" over Wikipedia and condemn its editors. Wnt (talk) 23:31, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

If everyone here had just focused on the issues raised in the "Statement of dispute" in the RfC, then it would have been much better for everyone, including Fae. Wnt, part of your view posted in the RfC focused on why you disagree with the issues raised in the "statement of dispute". That was fine. When you, or others like Rich and Russavia, however, use ad hominem tactics like alleging canvassing, BADSITES, homophobia, harassment, and the like, you really do Fae harm because it really discredits your argument. Keep your arguments honest and there isn't a problem. Cla68 (talk) 23:54, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

I started with the issues raised on the project page. I have investigated some of the claimed referencing problems, they are non-issues.

Any disputes with User:Ash are resolved, since the account is closed.

There are no ongoing disputes with User:Fae mentioned in that section.

The issue of RFA has been done to death on AAN/I. Re-raising it here and using it as a locus to attempt to out User:Ash is contrary to common decency and WP:SOCK Legitmate uses, section on privacy.

Claims that it is fine to "out" User:Ash because of a sourcing dispute about a nickname an author used in two autobiographies is fatuous to say the least.

Given this and the background, I am naturally lead to wonder why there are users supporting a clearly unsupportable position.

I'm not sure if your position is that it is merely coincidence that a significant proportion of these users come from WR - and indeed are active in DC/Fae threads there.

Rich Farmbrough, 02:17, 9 February 2012 (UTC).

(Responding to Peter Cohen) A logician will tell you that plenty of good arguments are logically fallacious and plenty of bad arguments are logically sound. An example of a bad argument would be counting the occurrences of a phrase on a Wikipedia article and drawing some conclusion about the significance of the information Rich Farmbrough provides above. I note that Cla68, in a similarly illogical and condescending move, brought up "ad hominem is a logical fallacy" point to deflect the point about off-wiki canvassing [68]. That isn't a socking claim: I'm just curious as to where this trope has come from. MartinPoulter (talk) 18:52, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

Just for reference, Rich, I have an active account on WR too [69], as has John Vandenberg. [70]. --JN466 11:52, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for that. Those links do not work for me, though. Rich Farmbrough, 18:16, 9 February 2012 (UTC).

This is Wikipedia at its ugliest, descending into a witch hunt of sorts in order to discredit an opposing opinion. Look, there are a lot of problems with the Wikipedia Review, but that doesn't mean that every Wikipedia editor who posts there should have their reputation tarnished for that reason alone. The question at hand is whether participating in a Wikipedia Review discussion thread which paints Fæ in a negative light is, in itself, off-wiki harassment. I've looked over a lot of the threads over there, and it's hardly obvious to me that the primary motivation of these editors (that is, those listed above by Rich) was to harass Fæ. It appears instead that these editors – to be clear, this does not include any banned users that are WR members – initially became interested in posting about Fæ because he is a trustee of Wikimedia UK, and became increasingly interested as more and more of Fæ's "dirty laundry" was discovered. Even posts by these users which mentioned Fæ's sex life did so in the limited context of explaining how certain aspects of his sex life could harm Wikimedia's reputation.

I feel bad for Fæ. It's dismaying to see another human being's real-life reputation dragged through the mud, essentially because he took a questionable path to becoming a Wikipedia administrator – which, in the grand scheme of things, is an exceedingly minor infraction. However, it is important to recognize that Fæ deserves a good portion of the blame for his own public embarrassment. He uploaded sexual photographs of himself to Wikimedia sites under a previous username, engaged in some questionable editing practices under that username, and started a WP:CLEANSTART at a time when he was coming under scrutiny (even if the scrutiny was not the reason for the CLEANSTART, the timing inevitably appears suspicious). After this, he became a Wikipedia administrator after a RfA in which an arbitrator endorsed him in a way that many editors now question. And then Fæ became a Wikimedia UK trustee and tied his real-world identity to his new account. Tying his real-world identity to his Wikipedia identity created a very real risk that his real-world identity would be tied to the skeletons in his wiki-closet. This risk was exacerbated by Fæ’s status as a Wikimedia UK trustee, making him a public figure and a legitimate target for scrutiny. I am absolutely not saying that Fæ deserves to suffer real-world harm for any on-wiki infractions, nor am I saying that he should be harassed. I’m saying that he left the door open for some ugly things to come out, and my sympathy for him is a little bit limited as a result.

Actual harassment of Fæ should absolutely not be allowed, but I don’t think the editors Rich listed above have been harassing Fæ. It is not outing to tie a CLEANSTART account to a previous account when the editor has tied the new account to his real-life identity. And I don’t see how besmirching other editors’ reputations simply because they participate in Wikipedia Review is helping anything. Rich, call off the witch hunt and stop trying to silence opinions contrary to your own. If you're done discussing the actual issues raised in this RfC/U (the merits of the sourcing concerns, the RfA issue), then stop participating in the RfC/U altogether. Sorry to have been blunt, but it had to be said. A Stop at Willoughby (talk) 02:25, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

Point of order: I've seen three of these photos - none of them are sexual. They're the kind of thing that an actor making a PG-rated romantic comedy could have appeared in. The only thing that makes them "embarrassing" is a) he's not so pretty as some actors, and b) a lot of suggestions, made by others, that maybe he actually likes that kind of thing. All the other vicious rhetoric floating around on WR is based on pure speculation; I've seen no sex photos at all. Wnt (talk) 13:10, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

I'll take your word for it, Wnt. I haven't taken it upon myself to view any of the photos, as gay sexual imagery is not exactly to my taste. A Stop at Willoughby (talk) 22:33, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

The problematic claim of Farmbrough's here is "Any disputes with User:Ash are resolved, since the account is closed". If I logged out of "Tarc" and logged into "AnonymousGuyX" and started trolling some discussion here, "Tarc" doesn't get away scott-free if the connection is discovered. This perverse hair-splitting of a real-life person into "activities as Ash" and "activities as Fae" is just bizarre. Tarc (talk) 02:49, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

I can't help but agree. I've seen that point of view put forward elsewhere here, too. If that's what a cleanstart is, a mechanism for instant absolution from all your sins without discussion, complete disappearance, even while the subject of an RFC, and a brand new, squeaky clean identity, no questions asked, ever, even when applying for positions of trust, then I apologise for even posting at this RFC. In that event I should be posting at the RFC for cleanstarts. Begoon ^talk 02:58, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

I understand that point of view, but Ash walked away from the gay porn bios which were the disputes were. It is not useful or sense to claim they are not resolved, DC and whoever else was opposing user Ash effectively "won" by default, DC says this quite clearly "everything has been peaceful since Ash left" (paraphrase but pretty close). To try and resurrect this with the "evidence of disputed behaviour" at this attempted RFC is a major fail. Rich Farmbrough, 03:32, 9 February 2012 (UTC).

That's why I agreed, in the "Motion to Close" section above, that refocussing an RFC on the genuine issues of concern here would be a good move. Unless you want all this to happen again. Begoon ^talk 03:39, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

• Tarc, that is completely the opposite of what happened with Ash/Fæ (not Fae). Ash was the account that became tied to what felt like harassment, and a WP:CLEANSTART was deemed appropriate likely for this reason among others. Fæ came to be after the fact and didn't have any problems - at least not serious ones. Fæ even gained the trust of the community and became an administrator. Now...I personally have never been part of any alternate accounts, so by that rule, I should automatically qualify to be an admin...right? Wrong. Fæ gained the trust of the community through his actions on Wikipedia and even got onto the Board. That is a rare accomplishment, and is the only reason we know of the link between the two accounts. If not for someone bringing to a public forum the linking of an image formerly tied to the same personal name - which for all we knew at first glance (i.e. without "digging") could have been a completely different person (hey, my first and last name are shared by a lot of people) - we wouldn't be having this discussion right now. I do believe that the user in question seriously meant to bring action against Fæ. This user would not have brought this information to the spotlight if there was not a serious intent to cause further harm and embarrassment to Fæ. And, even if it is something that just anyone could have found out, it is shameful and an embarrassment to the editor in question to make a spectacle out of this. Yes, things are going to come out of this RFC/U, good and bad. Embarrassing Fæ to the point that he might have to have yet another WP:CLEANSTART is not something that should have happened. CycloneGU (talk) 03:56, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

• Everything you have stated above does nothing but perpetuate the lie of "treat Ash and Fae as separate entities". That is not how life works, I'm afraid. Tarc (talk) 04:09, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

  That's your problem. They ARE separate identities. And someone - I won't shame this person by naming him/her unless that person identifies him/herself - deliberately posted information linking the two accounts in an attempt to embarrass and shame Fæ. This is the very definition of outing. It doesn't matter if the information was there publicly available in the first place. The very nature of what this user did is the very definition of "outing". And if Fæ is going to be sanctioned for anything - which would be a victory for the off-wiki conduct at WR (and no, I am not saying everyone there is a "nasty") - then the user outing Fæ ought to suffer punishment for bringing this information to a public forum. Was there really a need for any of this - shall we say - shyt?

  Also, you claim "Everything you have stated above does nothing but perpetuate the lie of 'treat Ash and Fae as separate entities'." As already stated, there is no lie in this. The example you yourself give says you could log into "AnonymousGuyX" and do bad activities, and thus suffer punishment under "Tarc". That part you are correct on. That is sockpuppetry and you can get in (big) trouble for that. Saying that Fæ (BTW, I note again, it's NOT "Fae") is a sockpuppet of Ash is, however, NOT accurate. Ash was an account under which the person operating it got off to a bad start, which to me sounds like some kind of harassment took place among other things. In cases of WP:CLEANSTART, an abandoned account (admittedly a month or two later if the evidence is right, but now completely abandoned) is simply and effectively a retired account, like a retired user. This is why it is a separate entity. Fæ is not a sockpuppet of Ash or vice versa. You have compared them to a Tarc/AnonymousGuyX scenario as if it were sockpuppetry. Sad to say you do not know what you are talking about. CycloneGU (talk) 04:58, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

Except, when I read what you linked to, it says:

• the new account must avoid editing patterns or behaviors that would allow other users to recognize and identify the account.
• Changing accounts to avoid the consequences of past bad behaviors is usually seen as evading scrutiny and may lead to additional sanctions.
• If you attempt a clean start, but are recognized, you will be held accountable for your actions under both the old and new accounts.
• The fact that you notified someone of the change will not excuse you from the consequences of your actions or protect you from recognition.

amongst other stuff. Begoon ^talk 12:21, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

I know exactly what I am talking about, Cyclone. "Sockpuppetry" is quite applicable here, especially as the two accounts controlled by the same person have overlapping edits. Whatever you're mounting this spirited defense for...an attack of WR users or a noble defense of Ash/Fae...it is entirely misguided. Tarc (talk) 13:28, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

There's a fundamental problem in your reasoning in this comment, CycloneGU, which is that Ash and Fæ are not "separate identities." They are one entity – a human being – a single man. I agree that they're not sockpuppets, but calling them "separate entities" is just fundamentally wrong. A Stop at Willoughby (talk) 22:33, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

I think I said quite clearly that some highly respected WP editors have accounts on WR (I will add that many other highly respected editors have been banned from, or left Wikipedia). I also said quite clearly that WR serves a purpose. I have left out most of what I have found on WR and other site run by disaffected ex-Wikipedians, which equates to reading many hundreds of forum posts, blog posts and articles, because they are completely different places from Wikipedia and it is perfectly acceptable to say things there that would mean an instant block here - but some of it is far worse than WR. Further to the matter of "witch-hunting" WR members, I opposed the attempt to ban DC, and I removed the SPI templates from Selina's user page. I do agree that Fae may have made unwise choices, including responding above, and I said as much, but it is not our job to penalise him for those choices, or to enable others to do it in the way you describe. And you are assuming things in your statement that even WR do not universally assume. I am not trying to silence anyone, I am simply pointing out certain facts which seem salient. I believe I have probably covered everything significant, but I thought that before and there were still further surprises. Rich Farmbrough, 03:32, 9 February 2012 (UTC).

Thanks for the response. Full reply below. A Stop at Willoughby (talk) 22:33, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

Most of these users are scarcely seen around Wikipedia, yet they all suddenly turn up here is one of the worst pieces of c. I have ever seen posted on Wikipedia. The 6 editors attacked have over 94K edits to Wikipedia. Without using bots to get high numbers. And of course they then go off to the appropriate pages, using whatever account or socking method they prefer and join in Is a specific type of barred attack post. I would commend that editor who posted these attacks to redact all the improper claims made on this page. Cheers. Collect (talk) 12:46, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

Again I think maintaining that most of these editors (and probably one or two more) are involved here as a result of their involvement at WR is unexceptional. It is also demonstrable that WR regulars have used underhand tactics, in the past, and blocked users have returned to attack Fae on WMF projects recently. That is not to say that the entirety of WR edits as a bloc, it clearly does not, WR regulars abuse each other as much or more than they abuse WP. Ascribing to me a position that goes beyond the evidence, whether deliberately or through reading too much into my post is not helpful. I do not take such a position. My position is that readers of this dispute, and the ANI over blocking DC should be aware that a substantial number of those supporting DC are party to off-site forums which advertise such discussions, primarily for the purpose of influencing them. Readers should also be aware that the contributors there are largely hostile to Wikipedia. If there are more WR editors here supporting DC they should have the decency to make themselves known. Rich Farmbrough, 13:18, 9 February 2012 (UTC).

Since you brought my name up, do you think my comments have been supportive of Fae or in opposition to Fae? Unless I'm missing something, I've mostly been commenting on (1) how it's a bit silly not to just acknowledge that 2 accounts are one person's account, (2) how the "sex-scandal" crap is unhelpful to all sides, and (3) offering some fact-checking regarding "unnamed persons" who have been accused of being bigots and dismissed as such. --SB_Johnny | ^talk 14:15, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

Saying that people come from WR is not saying that they have no moral standards. And indeed we appear to share the view that both homophobia and homophobiaphobia at least do not need to enter the equation. To me though, the matter of linking the two accounts is important. User:Ash edited gay porn bios pseudonymously, and has a right to expect that we not associate that account with his real world identity. If the editing was sufficiently tendentious the community has a right to put a stop to it. Had the RFC against Ash run to completion and a topic ban on gay porn bios been enacted, and another user appeared and started editing gay porn bios in the same manner, a SPI would have been filed, the two accounts linked and that would have been fine - the new account could not claim WP:SOCK privacy if they edited gay porn bios as the old. But in this case, importantly, there was no topic ban in place, and more importantly Fae did not edit gay porn bios. Therefore any attempt to link the two accounts is egregious "outing". Rich Farmbrough, 16:55, 9 February 2012 (UTC).

Well, I guess my point was that "people from WR" shouldn't have their input and concerns dismissed just because they're "from WR" (personally I think it's entirely possible that we might represent the readers (or end users) better than your average noticeboard buzzard).

However, I have to admit that your argument on the "outing/clean-start" has convinced me. Perhaps I'll be less convinced after sleeping on it, of course. --SB_Johnny | ^talk 23:28, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

It has been well documented above the editor linked both accounts to his real life name on-wiki; I consider application of the transitive property to be routine. Nobody Ent 18:26, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

The transitive property is precisely the point that linking the accounts is outing. And if you read "outing" it makes it quite clear that outing is still outing regardless of how easy or hard the association is to make, there are a whole number of ways you might identify someone verging from the near trivial to extremely sophisticated. It was clear that the account was at that time intended to be anonymously pseudonymous, if I might coin a phrase, that is all that is required. Rich Farmbrough, 19:37, 10 February 2012 (UTC).

The outing standard applies to "legal name, date of birth, identification numbers, home or workplace address, job title and work organisation, telephone number, email address, or other contact information." Note the list does not include prior Wikipedia accounts. The applicable standard is cleanstart: "If you attempt a clean start, but are recognized, you will be held accountable for your actions under both the old and new accounts. The fact that you notified someone of the change will not excuse you from the consequences of your actions or protect you from recognition." Nobody Ent 21:30, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

In the Karrine Steffans BLP, Fæ cited a (straight, not gay) porn site as a reliable source, along with press releases from the porn company. That was a video-streaming porn site, showing free clips from a sex video the BLP subject had made some years prior. That wasn't in line with BLP sourcing policy. When another editor deleted the material in question, a fair amount of unpleasantness resulted (Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive712#Admin_conduct_review_requested), and it was sufficiently reminiscent of User:Ash for John Vandenberg to warn Fæ about it publicly. We have had cases before where users with a controversial past started a new account under a different name, and stayed clean long enough to run successfully for office – only for trouble and misery to result later on, in some cases at least. There are legitimate concerns here that cannot just be brushed off the table. For example, if you found out that Essjay was now editing as admin User:I'mNewHere, and was running for arbcom (or Wikimedia press spokesman), would you consider it outing to say so? Would you say, "Oh, the Essjay scandal is so long ago. It's got nothing to do with User:I'mNewHere any more, because he hasn't repeated these behaviours (except once here and on Commons), and has made thousands of useful vandal reverts. Linking him to his former identity is outing." Are we building some kind of alternative universe here, where every minor faux pas made by a notable member of the public is catalogued forever, under the top Google link for their name, thanks to our good offices, while we write policies that allow editors to hide in the shadows? That is not how accountability works in civilised society. If politician Weiner tweets pictures of his wiener, people – including Wikimedians – don't say, "Oh, we mustn't talk about that, because his politician identity is separate from his wiener tweeting identity, and to link the two is outing." We are not talking about any old user here. We are talking about an admin, and a director of Wikimedia UK, who represents this movement in an official capacity, and votes to keep stuff like this on Wikimedia sites, despite complaints from the public. His own uploads, previously released into the public doman, have been subject to out-of-process deletions, the precise sort of deletion that the community would not grant a User:JoeBloggs who has second thoughts about an upload that has become an embarrassment. It's perfectly legitimate to differ in one's assessment of such facts, and how relevant they should be, but it's also perfectly legitimate for Wikimedians and members of the public to voice concerns about them. --JN466 19:29, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

You make a number of points, on the first I have already commented to only cursory knowledge of the Steffans dispute, and that centred on the use of a widely cited nickname, the author herself uses it in both her autobiographies (though I understand she now says they are all lies), and it is a common usage - in one book about teaching the teacher mentions that his students knew her nickname but not her real name. Therefore I have doubts that this is a really egregious issue, and indeed it is not part of the RFC, moreover the person who incorrectly thought it was and certified the RFC on that basis, later uncertified it on the basis that it is a resolved dispute and therefore not appropriate for RFC/U.

So even if there was "bad behaviour" (and we've seen elsewhere how these things get distorted, so I am reluctant to grant it without checking for myself) it was short lived and is resolved.

Secondly you pose some hypotheticals. Essjay did rather more both in kind and extent than support a correct claim of "Roman decoration" with a source that said "alternate Roman bath and gentlemen's club decoration" - so the analogy fails.

Thirdly you talk about Weiner. I didn't follow this story, so you must satisfy yourself with that.

Fourthly you talk about positions of responsibility. WP admin is only marginal responsibility at best. Matters relating to WMUK and its trustees should be taken up the chair of the trustees in the first place. For more serious matters the Charity Commission is available, and I understand that they will be in receipt of letters from WR members about the "fraudulent activities" of foundation - I don't suppose the trustees are unduly worried, however it is a better approach than forum innuendo.

Fifthly you return to penises. This particular one must be taken in hand at Commons, and is really a very long way from the dispute here. I do not see the value in rehashing the deletion debate of another site, and nor do I accept that a "keep" vote makes Fae a persona non grata.

Sixthly (and again on Commons) you talk about courtesy deletion of pictures. Doubtless others know more than I, but I am under the impression that courtesy deletion of unused pictures is pretty standard on Commons, although there are voices against it.

To sum up, matters not relevant to en:Wikipedia should be either taken up in the appropriate fora or dropped, like the proverbial stick. The Steffans matter is resolved, and is not part of the RFC. Rich Farmbrough, 19:37, 10 February 2012 (UTC).

Did you really just write that penises "must be taken in hand at Commons"?? O_o - Alison ^❤ 20:13, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

Evidently the ladies hang around there. CycloneGU (talk) 22:45, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

Rich, so as not to be, in your view, indecent, I shall "disclose" here that I have a WR account. I shall also disclose that I'm not "here supporting" anybody. I edit this site and I also read WR occasionally, amongst other things. I'm sure the same is true of many established editors. If it mattered, I didn't find this RFC through WR at all, but it doesn't matter. Should you require details of my other subscriptions and reading habits, please leave a note on my talk page. Begoon ^talk 13:30, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for that. Rich Farmbrough, 16:55, 9 February 2012 (UTC).

"Readers should also be aware that the contributors there are largely hostile to Wikipedia." What like two of thelongest-standing Arbs and a recent legal counsel for WMF. Even if you are talking about contributors to the threads regarding AvH, you will find plenty of creators of featured content. The hostility is to perceived corruption on Wikipedia and in the various WM organisations. Are you going to say that various other comments here should be ignored because they have been made by other trustees or employees of WMUK and might have been discussed in that context?--Peter cohen (talk) 13:46, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

I said largely, not universally. And I never said that the comments from WR editors such as yourself should be ignored, as you imply, I simply think that the context needs to be taken into account. Rich Farmbrough, 17:44, 9 February 2012 (UTC).

There's no need to reinvent the wheel here. Just look at the table on WP:CANVASS. The scale is a few threads there, which contain multiple links - closer to "mass posting" than "limited posting", I think, in any case more than the usual "heads up" notice on one of our messageboards. The message is definitely "biased" ("campaigning") - anyone dispute that? The audience is pretty clearly "partisan" ("votestacking") if you ask me, though some comments here seem to dispute that. The transparency e.g. with the "tar pit" thread is less than open, but definitely not secret. So I'd say the WR involvement is more inappropriate than appropriate according to existing policy. Wnt (talk) 14:01, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

Forums exist so that opinions, ideas, and news can be shared. Oddly enough, Wikipedians seem to hate the sharing of ideas and opinions and wish to suppress it. Wikipedians don't have any right to tell a reporter not to report the news; Wikipedians don't have the right to demand that a forum not be a place for sharing. WP:CANVASS is invoked every time Wikipedians are faced with a discussion whose course they can't dictate or predict due to the rapid spread of news and ideas. The WR isn't campaigning; it's sharing. Is sharing a crime in the eyes of Wikipedians? http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3AJimbo_Wales&diff=448509318&oldid=448508858. Also, the "tar pit" is for threads that have degraded into silly arguments between forum contributors; it isn't a place for covert operations. the official description of the "tar pit" is "This is where flamebait conversations go. Highly unmoderated - if you are easily offended, don't go in here." The Tar Pit thread that Wnt cited previously (the one that discussed the Email) didn't contain any links to any Wikipedia discussions. --Michaeldsuarez (talk) 17:17, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

This is a fair argument - Wikipedia is well known to be overly bureaucratic, and there are probably over a dozen Wikipedia policies I wouldn't mind seeing deleted. WP:CANVASS is one of those quixotic policies that can't reliably be enforced and therefore is no real protection. But getting rid of this policy by itself (without getting rid of apparently counterproductive policies for civility and avoiding personal attacks, for example) might unbalance the situation; in any case, I don't feel like a vote to delete any of these has a snowball's chance of succeeding right now. And within existing policy, this is the applicable language. Wnt (talk) 22:55, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

Thanks very much for your explanation of the "co-ordinating attacks" charge, Rich, and subsequent contributions in this thread. I think some respondents have over-interpreted what you've said, which is explaining a context in which this RFC needs to be seen, not making blanket accusations of socking or other evildoing over the whole of WR. Some of the very defensive responses are as illuminating as the original post. MartinPoulter (talk) 19:00, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

Rich, I'm placing this at the bottom of the section because I'm responding not only to your reply to me, but also to some of the other recent comments you've made. First, I apologize for using the term "witch hunt," which was over the top. Second, maybe you are merely trying to point out salient facts, but by going out of your way to associate certain editors with WR and alleged canvassing, you seem to be attempting to discredit their opinions. However, I won't press that any point any further. I will say that you are probably incorrect in implying that only WR members became aware of this dispute through that forum. It seems that numerous Wikipedia editors became aware of the controversy over by reading WR; it's possible that many of those even read WR regularly. I will freely admit that I found out about this controversy through reading WR (though I am not a member). This is not an issue that was raised on-wiki and then discussed in a canvassing thread on WR. This is an issue that was initially raised and discussed on WR. So, accusations of responses to canvassing ring particularly hollow in this case. Finally, there is one statement you made above which, in my opinion, is indisputably erroneous. You wrote that "in this case, importantly, there was no topic ban in place, and more importantly Fae did not edit gay porn bios. Therefore any attempt to link the two accounts is egregious 'outing.'" It is simply untrue that it is prohibited on Wikipedia to draw a connection between an old account and a WP:CLEANSTART account. It follows that, when an individual ties his real-life identity to his CLEANSTART account, he has no reasonable expectation that his abandoned account will not be tied to his real-life identity if the connection is found out. A Stop at Willoughby (talk) 22:33, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

From the point of view of WP:CANVASS, it doesn't matter whether the people reading WR are editors there or not; a more relevant question is whether they're unbiased, and whether the material recruiting them is unbiased. I'm guessing people who spend their time on that carnivorous site may be more willing to find fault, but I'm sure the material itself is not a detached, neutral invitation to make comment. Wnt (talk)

It's actually interesting to know who are also readers of WR - of course I am a reader myself, albeit not a regular one. I think it fair to say that at WR there is not a significant voice raised in protecting the privacy of of the WP accounts involved. I am not terribly familiar with the provisions of CLEANSTART, and I haven't relied on it - though DC supposed the link between the accounts not from editing patterns or areas but from already having searched out personal information relating to the "Ash" account (close paraphrase "I recognise that name, I will open that can of worms later"). My points on the linking of accounts are threefold:

• Firstly it is valid under "legitimate uses of socking" to have a pseudonymous account to edit in sensitive areas.
• Secondly it does not contribute anything useful. This is why I raise the areas of editing being different.
• Thirdly it appears to have been motivated by personal animosity, rather than good faith, which has clouded the ethical sense of the poster.

All these are basically grounded in common sense and ethics. Detailed support is to be found in policy, indeed policy goes further, but right now I think that is more than enough.

Rich Farmbrough, 10:13, 10 February 2012 (UTC).

For the record

I recently noticed this from Rich Farmbrough ([71]). The comments about me coordinating "attacks" with others, following Mr. Van Haeften to "export conflicts" etc..., are all lies. Just didn't want to let it go unremarked upon. Bali ultimate (talk) 16:40, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

It was not. DC posted on the RFC about it. Your edit history at Commons passes the duck test for exporting conflict. http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Bali_ultimate Your edits here since 26 December have almost all been related to Fae. You are blocked on commons, on your talk there who rocks up to support your unblock? A sock of a blocked user from this page, and a bunch of WR regulars. Also User:67.168.135.107 who is blocked, here and Commons, based on Checkuser information, and is clearly from WR by the editing history. Rich Farmbrough, 18:06, 9 February 2012 (UTC).

You have no evidence for your lies about my actions, and you couldn't possibly know my intentions. My involvement on commons was simple: I believe Mr. Van Haeften was not suitable for a position of responsibility there, based on his track-record with explicit images, misuse of sources, and copyright violations. I care what happens at commons, as i do about what happens at this website, because of their rankings in the search engines. That your campaign of personal attacks (which i don't really care about) is allowed to continue is good evidence of the whole "for thee but not for me" ethos of the wikipedia insiders. Just wanted to reemphasize that you have repeatedly lied about me. I leave the floor to you.Bali ultimate (talk) 18:12, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

You can emphasize that as much as you like, it doesn't make it true. The plain facts of the case are there for all to see. Rich Farmbrough, 18:19, 9 February 2012 (UTC).

Let me be explicit: You are a fucking liar with no evidence for your repeated personal attacks.Bali ultimate (talk) 18:21, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

Bali, I'm getting lost on exactly what you are denying. Are you saying you've not discussed Fae's case anywhere outside of en.wikipedia (I've no clue either way btw)? Are you saying you've made no attack against Fae? (I'd think that claiming someone was unsuitable for a position of responsibility that they currently hold would count as an attack. Truth perhaps, but an attack with a goal of removing them from that position.) I just get the sense that you and Rich are talking past each other (or maybe both are just talking over my head). Hobit (talk) 22:23, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

I would have thought that the issue was 'unreasonable to say they are co-ordinating attacks' which is plainly false. John lilburne (talk) 13:23, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

I've held off from commenting here because quite frankly this discussion here is of little consequence. The issue on WR doesn't seem to me to be about Fæ's sexual orientation, but about the governance issues surrounding his appointment to various positions with WP and in particular WMFUK. It is quite inconceivable that an educational charity, other than WMFUK it seems, would have as a director someone that a few months prior was displaying a naked sexualized photo of youth, for whatever reason, on their business card (or userpage in WP speak). It is also bizarre to have appointed as a spokesman of an organisation called before a parliamentary committee on privacy someone, that a few months previously, was invading the privacy of others by building a list of gay bathhouse attendees. The tragedy is that Fæ is getting the criticism, the hubris is that WMFUK and others failed to see that anonymity and a collective amnesia of a candidates past may have real world consequences. The user behind the Fæ account should have been discounted as a candidate if only because of the unwelcome personal criticism that would ensure from an election. The issue is that governance of a legally constituted organisation, especially one that targets children and young people, cannot proceed as if it is simply an internet forum with its own Byzantine rules that are at odds with the society within which it operates, and where someone is thought to be a different person, minus prior baggage, simply because of a username change. John lilburne (talk) 13:23, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

Aargh! Look at the continuing harassment that is going on of him, because people here believe the bull they read on WR as if it were Gospel Truth! Yeah, I just found a WR thread (won't link to it) which says the photo was File:VonGloeden_6052.jpg. Look at the history of that thing! It was a completely PG photo until March 28, 2010! Then someone adds a "full version" with a dong attached. Who could have predicted that? Even if it were deliberate (and it's not) if Wikimedia is willing to host something (and we should be) then how can we condemn an official for linking to it? If we treat our officials with such a censorial point of view, how can we expect them to administer an open encyclopedia? Indeed, I think that's the whole point of the pressure on Ash/Fae. Last but not least, I have no idea what the attitudes about this picture were in the 1700s. It was the Age of Reason, not today's Victorian hypocrisy. It's entirely possible someone could be naked without being "sexualized". (I must have misread the date, and was overly gullible to think it that good a painting) Wnt (talk) 14:18, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

Ask Jimbo. He objects to the a■■■ probe on the main page. He's not exactly keen about people writing on such topics contributing to his project either. So, I'm guessing that if you want to climb in the WMF hierarchy, you might need a "clean start" if your editing history included such topics. ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 14:36, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

To avoid confusion, that's about the recent featured article on the South Park episode Cartman Gets an Anal Probe. That has nothing to do with Fae, and it doesn't change what I expect from Wikimedia officials. Wnt (talk) 14:50, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

Given that the critics discussed that show in terms of the "conniving hypocrisy of the adults", it might be fitting to mention it here directly, but the Wikipedia controversy about it makes it even more compelling. ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 15:19, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for bringing that up. I've brought it to the attention of the other WR members: http://wikipediareview.com/index.php?showtopic=36464&st=220&p=297313&mode=linear#entry297313. Can all those who criticized Fæ due to the image please acknowledge the mistake and possibly apologize? As a means of damage control, I'll ask moderator to insert a disclaimer to each of the posts that mention the image or to move the entire thread to a non-public location. Although I have never criticized or mocked Fæ for using that image, I'm sorry for any damage the falsehood has caused to his reputation. --Michaeldsuarez (talk) 16:01, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

The problem remains in that the picture is by Wilhelm von Gloeden and the nature of the work and the photographer is well known. You are in effect saying is that a head and torso photo of naked Vietnamese Girl by Paul Gadds would be perfectly acceptable. John lilburne (talk) 16:28, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

Indeed, the nature of the photographer is well known, if you read the article: Famous in his own day, his work was subsequently eclipsed for close to a century, only to re-emerge in recent times as "the most important gay visual artist of the pre–World War I era" according to Thomas Waugh. Wnt (talk) 16:34, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

You're probably missing the WR angle on this [72]. They surely like to act as the neighborhood watch for that area. Bu the way, the passage you just cited was added by the same (now banned) user [73]. ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 16:48, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

In those sad times when homosexuality was persecuted, "pederasty" could refer to a variety of things. And notions about the age of consent were different back then. Do you deny that you're following in the footsteps of a pornography trial under the Mussolini regime that exonerated the lover who inherited the photographs? Think about that. The point is, someone who is gay has every right to see this person as an important cultural pioneer, regardless of some possible other interpretations of his role. Wnt (talk) 16:58, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

WR as a neighborhood watch? I might as soon trust the Michigan Militia. Wnt (talk) 17:01, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

Perspectives vary I presume given how divisive WR is in general among Wikipedians. Their alleged site owner surely has an interest in applying some form of wikijustice to that [74]. Anyway, can anyone find why User:Haiduc was banned by ArbCom? I'm having trouble finding the ArbCom case where he was sanctioned. ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 17:06, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

It does indeed look like some people want to cast Gloeden as a pedophile pioneer (indeed, if you search his name nambla.org comes up in the second page of results). But let's look at this dispassionately. Even today it is legal for people to marry a 14-year-old (the age when he began his relationship with that model who inherited his photos) in some states, and certainly back then. And by the more laid-back sexual mores of the Victorian era, for boys to swim nude was not regarded as a big deal. I mean, by comparison, there are still people in the world who look up to Muhammad. Well I'll tell you, Gloeden didn't pop the cherry on any 9-year-olds that I know of, he didn't chop anybody's head off or rob any merchants at knife-point, he's practically the Virgin Mary by comparison. So if you don't think it's right to denigrate and dismiss an editor or a prospective Wikimedia official for being Muslim, then you shouldn't have any problem with Ash/Fae. If Muslims have civil rights, gays should too. Wnt (talk) 17:32, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

Wnt, did you really just say "If Muslims have civil rights, gays should too"? In recent days, I believe I have seen you say that our policy on articles about living persons is "a cancer" on Wikipedia, that we should have videos of actual beheadings on Wikipedia's article on beheading, and now this. Perhaps I am misunderstanding what you are implying when you say "Gloeden didn't pop the cherry on any 9-year-olds" in association with Muhammed, but I suspect that many people would take offence to your statement. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 16:53, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

Lest there be any uncertainty, I'm saying that I respect the right of an editor to have a statement expressing support or admiration for Muhammad on his homepage, despite that man's marriage of Aisha, a 9-year-old girl; indeed, even a votive reference to Aisha herself. And I also respect the right of an editor to express support or display an art photo by von Gloeden, even though he began a long-term relationship with a boy of only fourteen. Fair is fair, that's all - we should not be implying nasty things about either editor based solely on their reaction to notable historical figures. Wnt (talk) 07:39, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

You have no evidence for that, other than stories made to bolster a religious dogma. If one is going to believe that particular story then one might just as well believe all the rest too. Or that the Jesus was born of a virgin, or any of the other fancies of medieval proselytizer, which isn't the same with von Gloeden. John lilburne (talk) 20:57, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

Muhammad was an historical figure, not a myth, and in any case, a Muslim expressing support for him would believe the story, right? The comparison is relevant. Wnt (talk) 06:44, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

The problem you have is that you are equating a dogma with a reality, which is rather fanciful. A belief in something is not the same thing as the reality of the thing. King John was a historical figure, and is supposed to have consummated his marriage with Isabelle when she was also 9 years old. However, despite that having happened some 600 years nearer to us than Muhammed, the age of his Isabelle though is not clear she could have been anything from 9 years old to 15 years old. Contemporary accounts though indicate that whatever her age, people thought it a bit too young, and later in life she did say that 13 yo was too young, so she was probably under 13 yo, and almost certainly premenarche but there is no certainty on her actual age. John lilburne (talk) 07:45, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

I think you've stayed from the point, but if a Spanish admin wants to put a portrait of King John on his user page I don't think he deserves criticism for doing that either. Wnt (talk) 07:57, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

I used John for a purpose, because when when sees a portrait of John one thinks of Magna Charta or the loss of the Angevin Empire, not him fucking a 9 yo. The same is true with an image of Mohammed. If your mythical Spanish admin, had put up a portrait of either in a bed chamber with a dishevelled raped naked 9 yo girl, then you would have a point. A simply portrait doesn't cut it in the same way as a image of a youth with his finger in the mouth of a fish, which is probably a reference to Tiberius on Capri, rather than to Tobias and Rafael, from a photographer that is noted mainly for naked photos of youths and for having a 14 yo lover. John lilburne (talk) 09:13, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

And as I said, the photo Ash put up was PG-rated, taken by the most prominent gay photographer of an era. I doubt he had any notion about this Tiberius thing, whatever it is - I read something someone was saying about that before and I don't see any obvious connection besides some people here saying Gloeden was generally inspired by "classical themes". Do you even have a source for that interpretation? Your position seems to be that if you put a photo on your Wikipedia user page you are responsible for every sin ever committed by the person you choose - provided he is gay, that is. Otherwise nothing, not even murder or mayhem by the person pictured, is objectionable at all. I don't see how a person can believe such a position. Wnt (talk) 14:09, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

The content of the image itself is suggestive. If it were an image of a 12-year-old girl sucking a finger with a come-hither look in her eyes, it would be much the same thing. Not illegal perhaps, but not exactly good public relations for a charity either. --JN466 15:06, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

One forgets the ignorance of people here. Images like those by Gloeden are not simple photographs, they were meant to portray mythological scenes, and to be viewed by the sophisticated and educated, those who are familiar with the classics, and capable of appreciating the allegories depicted in the pictures. Why do you refer to Gloeden as the "most prominent gay photographer of an era"? There were others working at the same time and in the same place as Gloeden, but their models tended to be older. The point with Gloeden was the mythological/classical references and the age of the subjects, both aspect of which you seem to want to dismiss. John lilburne (talk) 19:31, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

Nice example. From Commons:Vincenzo Galdi: "His pictures are still often mistaken for those by Wilhelm von Gloeden, in order to get higher prices in the antiquarian market, but they have a rather distinct character of their own (definitely much more sexual), that can be easily spotted." Wnt (talk) 20:19, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

WNT - Of course gay people should have as many rights as everyone else. Neither a gay person, nor a muslim, has the right to have sex with children. While I agree with those who think the posting of the photo was inappropriate, my analysis was that it was kind of a free kulture/not censored FU. Certainly was not an approval of the photographer's reputation for having sex with children in his lifetime. It appears you want to help Fae. But the "Mohamed was a pedophile, therefore Gloeden was a saint" angle is probably not a very helpful one for him, or for you. I do look forward to your treatise on the "laid-back sexual mores of the Victorian era" though (be sure to mention the piano legs).Bali ultimate (talk) 17:41, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

'my analysis was that it was kind of a free kulture/not censored FU' That may well be correct, but the image chosen to perform the FU shows very poor judgement. user:Wnt says that the image wasn't explicit when it was put on the user page, some consideration other than explicitness would need to be found for it be used as a not censored FU. John lilburne (talk) 19:17, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

About these WR links, I should reemphasize WP:Linking to external harassment. Fae has complained about something similar I did before. The policy is not absolute, but there is a chance that people who have posted these links - myself included - may have to answer about them in some future process. Read this behavioral guideline and consider your postings carefully. Wnt (talk) 17:04, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

@ASCIIn2Bme... - User:Haiduc - there was no on wiki case - any discussion and interpretation of whatever information was done in private. All this has nothing to do with User:Fae, so doesn't need discussing here imo. Youreallycan 17:36, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

This was the discussion that led to Haiduc's departure. [75]Bali ultimate (talk) 17:46, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

N.B. a 'lilburne' on WR posted "What the fool Wnt is saying is that a head and upper torso photo of a naked Vietnamese Girl by Paul Gadd would be acceptable on a user page." That's mentioned above also. I've made no comment on the picture, as I have no idea who Paul Gadd is (wrong link) or whether he actually took such photos. (Unless I ran across it a long time ago and only WR remembers?) It is true though that in general I think editors deserve the right to showcase the photos from Wikimedia Commons that they like, without prejudice. Wnt (talk) 17:47, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

The link is not wrong, but your attention span was probably quite challenged there. Try The Execution of Gary Glitter for the context. ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 17:51, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

Curious. In any case we've strayed from Fae ---> the retroactively altered photo ---> Gloeden ---> nasty interpretations of Gloeden ---> hypothetical photos by a non-gay non-photographer not on the site. I'm calling this way off topic and capping the pen here. The original point, that Ash was being mindlessly slandered by people who had no idea what was really on his page, has been too far diluted. Wnt (talk) 01:03, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

I think that is the basic dynamic. Start with accusations of "fraudulent sourcing" move on to "electoral fraud" and "socking" bring in "gay bathhouses" (like documenting Truman Capote's sexual habits is a privacy invasion), bring up an image, attack those that are not accepting the line of attack, etc etc. Attack the neutral admin on AN/I. A shell game, while the dubious RFC continues to run unabated. Of course it is not necessarily planned that way, it may just be a defensive reaction, as the various props for the group-think arguments are pulled away, to move on to the next. Rich Farmbrough, 18:33, 10 February 2012 (UTC).

AN discussion

Wikipedia_talk:Requests_for_comment/Fæ#Motion_to_close 00:48, 10 February 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nobody Ent (talk • contribs)

I am presuming this is in error. The above is just a link within this page. CycloneGU (talk) 22:43, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

Procedural request

Would an admin (involved or uninvolved) please clean up the conversations happening on the RFC/U evidence page? Endorsement sections are meant for endorsements, not for back and forth between editors. Thanks. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 13:27, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

Rather what I thought when you posted your response to my talk page comments there. Rich Farmbrough, 14:07, 10 February 2012 (UTC).

Discussion moved from section - Outside view by My76Strat

• - Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/Fæ#Outside_view_by_My76Strat

1. See User:Fæ/Recall process --Guerillero | My Talk 23:05, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

   "petition were based on edits made since my last RFA." and "Problematic behaviours should represent a current problem and evidence when a petition is raised should be based on issues within the previous 12 months." Bulwersator (talk) 23:08, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

   I suspect this proposal for recall fails all four tests in Fae's criteria for recall. As well as the two Bulwersator mentions, the Wikipedia Review stuff means it fails the" Evidence of negative canvassing may cause the petition to be considered invalid." test. ϢereSpielChequers 17:18, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

1. Of course. Reconfirmation may be appropriate, but I'm in no position to judge. Fae should heed the advice of editors he respects who are familiar with his admin work and likely to offer impartial advice. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 15:01, 2 February 2012 (UTC) Updated 01:29, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

Discussion moved from section - Outside view by Themfromspace

• - Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/Fæ#Outside_view_by_Themfromspace

1. Again, there are valid reasons for a clean start that should not invoke a blanket oppose. But I do find it interesting that you supported the RfA with "no reservations" despite people warning that this might happen.---Balloonman ^{Poppa Balloon} 06:39, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

1. Ban as a sock? This was a valid clean start account and ArbCom knew about it from almost the beginning. Cleanstart is completely different from sockpuppetry. It was just terribly handled and misleading by several parties. Secret ^account 01:18, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

   I was unaware that "clean start" used accounts set up before the RFC/U as a valid clean start. And IIRC, once a "clean start" is made, it is forbidden to use the old account, no? you can simply discontinue the old account(s) and create a new one implies that the old account is discontinued before a new one is created, right? Discontinuing the old account means it will not be used again means there should be zero edits on the old account after the new one is editing, right? Neither rule appears to have been followed, which makes me wonder just what did happen. Cheers. Collect (talk) 01:32, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

   Look at question 13 in the RfA. Fae acknowledged the overlap over a year ago during the RfA, as such, this fact was addressed prior to promotion.---Balloonman ^{Poppa Balloon} 06:28, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

1. There are legitimate reasons to have a clean start and to respect the privacy of said clean start... harrassment, revelation of one's real life identity, etc. In those cases, a clean start is a clean start. This case involved secrecy surrounding an RfCU and issues that were not revealed to the public. But the RfA community strongly supported its passage despite the lack of knowledge of the specifics. The time to have spoken up on this lack of transparency was a year ago when he ran.---Balloonman ^{Poppa Balloon} 06:23, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

   True, I should have been more explicit in his RfA. Salih (talk) 06:30, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

Discussion moved from section - Outside view by TCO

• - Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/Fæ#Outside_view_by_TCO

1. As someone who has surfed Black's Beach, I've learned that "nude beach" is almost like code words for "gay beach".TCO (talk) 22:46, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

   Next thing you're going to be telling us is that "family" is code for "gay" as well ;-)---Balloonman ^{Poppa Balloon} 02:55, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

   I always thought "nude beach" was code for "Warning!!! HIPPIES!!!!". When did they change the codes? Was there an RfC on this? This is indeed very important - I MUST know what the new code for "Warning!!! HIPPIES!!!!" is. That's not something I want to take risks on.VolunteerMarek 03:00, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

   My buddy said Dog Beach on Point Loma was the place to pick up women. They are just hanging out, walking the dog on a weekend morning, in a sweatshirt. Pretty approachable and willing to talk. And the dogs naturally making friends gives the perfect icebreaker.TCO (talk) 03:03, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

1. If you've never uploaded a picture, you are not participating enough. (And doesn't need to be your photo, can be a free one that you find on Google and upload...or a donation you get for a non-free one.)TCO (talk) 18:07, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

   When the weather's better, I do plan to photograph stations as I travel around. Peridon (talk) 12:19, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

Discussion moved from section - (far) Outside view by SB_Johnny

• - Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/Fæ#.28far.29_Outside_view_by_SB_Johnny

1. Thanks, Collect... that's what I was intending to say but somehow managed not to quite say it because I was distracted by something completely unrelated. When the cat's out of the bag, it makes more sense to go buy some meow mix and a litterbox rather than trying to pretend that there is not now nor was there ever a cat in the bag ;-). And nice to bump into you again as always. --SB_Johnny | ^talk 20:47, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

Discussion moved from section - view 2 by ReverendWayne

• - Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/Fæ#View_2_by_ReverendWayne

1. reread the last sentence.---Balloonman ^{Poppa Balloon} 21:06, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

   I read it. It says he should not be an admin unless reconfirmed. I agree. It doesn't say the reconfirmation should be enforced. He can carry on being an admin without reconfirmation, if he wants to, and I can carry on thinking he shouldn't be one unless reconfirmed. That's semantics, though - the important thing I'm endorsing is the need for the subject of the RFC to properly address the concerns herein and elsewhere. I think I'm entitled to expect that of any user, but this is an admin, so the expectation is appreciably greater. Begoon ^talk 04:32, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

Section - Outside view by 101.118.25.78 - moved from RFC user

note - During the process of moving the discussion on the project page to this talkpage, I have boldly moved this section as it was suggested above in a thread and the basic statement was incorrect and there are no supports for it and it is basically just discussion, which more belongs here than on the rfc user page. - Youreallycan 16:07, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

Outside view by 101.118.25.78

It was NOT clear during the RfA what exactly was happening. We knew there was an old account. But we did NOT know that an RfC/U existed on the user. We were assured that this was NOT a problem user. Some of us !voted to oppose because we felt that the secret information was unacceptable for an RfA. Some of you !voted to support because you believed what JvdB said about Fæ and his edits. John and Fæ actively misled folks during the RfA. This is a problem. John was not perfectly frank. Nor was Fæ. They never clearly told us what they weren't telling us. In several key ways, we were misled. There is a fundamental basis for any complaint about the RfA. 101.118.25.78 (talk) 21:04, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

• - It was pointed out that

Users who endorse this summary:

Clearly the fact that the user left his previous account and that a RFC user was outstanding against that account was withheld from RFA voters. Youreallycan 23:06, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

• Comment (and apologies if this should go elsewhere) - in the RfA[[76]], Fae's acceptance statement of nomination for adminship reads as follows: "I accept. For reasons of disclosure it should be noted that after an RFC/U which caused me to refocus and improve my Wikipedia editing I took the option of a clean start, though I have never been blocked. Prior to this nomination I spoke privately with one of the critical contributors to the discussion, who knows both account names and we have resolved our concerns. I will recuse myself of admin requests related to editors who gave an opinion in that discussion. This is the first time I have had an RFA nomination. Fæ (talk) 22:00, 14 March 2011 (UTC) " I am uninvolved here, but thought it reasonable to point out that the RfC/U was openly acknowledged from the very beginning, although without any useful details. Colonel Tom 23:17, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

• Ah yes, thanks - it was mentioned, a bit of a vague reflection of the way it actually happened but it was mentioned. Youreallycan 23:44, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

• "after an RFC/U which caused me to refocus and improve my Wikipedia editing" doesn't read quite the same as retiring under a cloud during an active RfC, though, does it? I'm assuming that when it was stated above that the RfC was active at the time of retiring, that was correct? Pesky (talk …stalk!) 20:43, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

View by Balloonman: Time to close

Ok, I think it's long past time to close this puppy. Over the past week, there have only been a handful of edits to endorse any view relative to Fae. Most of the edits to this page have been formatting/presentation, related to Wikipedia Review, or otherwise unrelated to the topic at hand. The discussion on the Talk Page degenerated over a week ago to petty bickering, personal attacks, behavior of editors here and elsewhere. Every edit on the talk page since the 11th of February has dealt with the age of Muhamed and King John's concubines---anything and everything except related to Fae. No meaningful insights have been brought forth, no wave of contributions, this thing should be closed.---Balloonman ^{Poppa Balloon} 14:48, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

• support the Over the past week, there have only been a handful of edits to endorse any view relative to Fae time to close bit only. Youreallycan 14:50, 16 February 2012 (UTC)
• Donating Padlock at right - I strongly believe this is needed here. CycloneGU (talk) 23:37, 16 February 2012 (UTC)
• Support I don't see anything very useful being said here recently. Begoon ^talk 23:42, 16 February 2012 (UTC)
• Support I don't agree that it's long past time, but it's time. ReverendWayne (talk) 00:35, 17 February 2012 (UTC)
• Support I think it was plain nothing more was going to happen back at the last proposal to close. Hobit (talk) 03:15, 17 February 2012 (UTC)
• Support I was waiting for a commitment from Fae to avoid BLPs, and a comment regarding the legitimacy of his RfA, but I guess neither is going to happen. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 04:20, 17 February 2012 (UTC)
• Support The line drawn underneath might be the one tidy thing about it. Exok (talk) 05:53, 17 February 2012 (UTC)
• Support I doubt the debates about Muhammad and King John on the talk page will accomplish very much. Mark Arsten (talk) 06:13, 17 February 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose While it's true that there is some completely irrelevant bickering going on (and parties should take care to cut it out) it does not look to me like this is resolved. Summary? Conclusions? What's next? All that is unclear, in good measure because Fae hasn't exactly been forthcoming here.VolunteerMarek 10:24, 17 February 2012 (UTC)
• Procedural oppose I find short-circuting any procedure is unwise - and as there is only a week left in the normal gestation period, we should reasonably wait. The talk [page discursions are not of importance in any case - let's ride this one until its appointed time. At that point "This should be done by an uninvolved editor (not necessarily an admin) when the dispute has been resolved, moved to any other forum, or seems unlikely to be resolved." Cheers. Collect (talk) 12:43, 17 February 2012 (UTC)
• Bad idea. During the course of this RfC, there have been various editors trying to filibuster it and to shoot down all attempts at discussion. First they deleted this RfC, then they sought to muddy the water, hurling around accusations of homophobia, then they moved for closure both here and on WP:AN. And now this proposal. Please, stop trying to silence those of us who have legitimate and serious concerns as to the way Fae has achieved adminship and has been editing BLPs. Salvio ^{Let's talk about it!} 13:14, 17 February 2012 (UTC)
  • I've no problem with keeping this open if there is discussion still to be had. I've seen no recent (last few days) evidence of any relevant discussion related to Fae, and plenty of unproductive stuff in the last week (including things hitting the notice boards etc.). Is there something you (or anyone else) still wishes to add? If so, certainly keep this open. If not, I don't understand the point. Hobit (talk) 13:41, 17 February 2012 (UTC)
    • I agree... if there was any material infor being added and responded to then it would be one thing, but so far, nada. It's gone a week and all that we've seen is a debate about the exact age of Mohamed and King John's wife's exact age at time of consumation. And a bunch of petty bickering. There is no need to be overly beaucratic about keeping this thing open, nothing new is baing added. Nobody is responding to anything anymore. It's a dead issue. The only reason to keep it open is because people want to "adhere to" the 30 practice. But that is not a requirement, when discussion has come to an end and a week of non-participation is a good sign of that, then kill it.---Balloonman ^{Poppa Balloon} 14:41, 17 February 2012 (UTC)
    • Between Feb 11 and Feb 13 we had a total of 10 edits to the page supporting or adding views. 3 or 4 of them were completely unrelated to Fae and dealt with other issues. Since Tuesday, the only comment has been to support Volunteer Mareks view relative to Wikipedia Review and this thread.
    • The Talk page is even worse. Somehow they have been debating the age of Mohamed and King Phillip's wife's age and how you can't trust the historical records and a lot of borderline personal attacks. The talk page hasn't had meaningful conversation in over a week and a half.
    • The only reason to keep this open is because people are consumed with "process", but process does not require that RfC's be open for 30 days, that is only a guideline. If the discussion has come to an end (and with the exception of some bickering unrelated to Fae on the talk page) it has, then the RfC should be closed.---Balloonman ^{Poppa Balloon} 15:05, 17 February 2012 (UTC)
      • And has there been a concrete reason to abrogate the guideline? Is there some sort of WP:DEADLINE to be met that one week would horribly harm? I think that is not the case. Collect (talk) 16:18, 17 February 2012 (UTC)
        • And what does the guideline say? Thirty days is the default length, but there is no required minimum or maximum length. There is ZERO requirement to keep it open 30 days. Nothing material has been added over the past week, and keeping it open now is a waste. Keeping a dead issue open for process sake is the failure to follow guidelines. I also find it interesting that you cite Wikipedia:DEADLINE#View_three:_Don.27t_postpone_dispute_resolution. We've got enough here to realize the outcome, it ain't going to change over the next week. The only way it would change is if there was a flood of new voices suddenly dropping in, and if that happened it would raise serious questions about CANVASS as the issue is dead. So let's not delay the dispute resolution phase, there is no deadline a week away.---Balloonman ^{Poppa Balloon} 16:30, 17 February 2012 (UTC)
          • Yep - an RFC/U can be closed at the one hour mark - but I suggest that since this one is still getting new editors in, that such a weird position makes no sense at all. In the meantime, I have attempted an objective summary of the RFC/U, without a single irrelevant side issue sneaking in <g>. Collect (talk) 16:42, 17 February 2012 (UTC)
            • LOL... if the criteria to keeping RfC's open is is still getting new editors then we might NEVER close another RfC again! Yeah, we got 1 or 2 new editors over the past week. One supported a view unrelated to Fae. But I suspect that if we kept this open until no-new twisters joined, it might be Christmas before we closed ;-)---Balloonman ^{Poppa Balloon} 17:08, 17 February 2012 (UTC)
          • FWIW, the main page specifies clearly:
            • Users should not edit other people's summaries or views, except to endorse them.
          • Cheers. Collect (talk) 16:56, 17 February 2012 (UTC)
            • I haven't edited any summary/view, so I'm not sure where this is coming from?---Balloonman ^{Poppa Balloon} 17:08, 17 February 2012 (UTC)
              • • I was writing my response to your odd post - and when you removed the post, it made my response seem like that of a "deranged lunatic" <g> speaking to Nobody at all. Usually when one changes one's mind, one can avail onself of "strikethrough" to prevent the weird image of the responder talking to himself. Cheers. Collect (talk) 17:25, 17 February 2012 (UTC)
                  • And usually, when somebody makes an edit, and 7 minutes later reconsiders it, and decides to delete it themselves and nobody had responded, then the other party generally lets the deleted edit stand. I've never seen a person restore a deleted comment just to refute what the person had said before. I could understand it, if the post had been there a while, but 7 minutes? That's rude. I have never in 5+ years seen an editor do that before. Again, it would be a different story if you had responded BEFORE I deleted, but you hadn't.---Balloonman ^{Poppa Balloon} 17:51, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

(od) as can be seen by everyone - you made specific charges against me - which, in fact, you have iterated here, without any rational basis. My response pointing that out was being written before you changed your mind - and, if you did not make the same poor charge about me using language which was in the statement by Hobit, then that would likely have been fine. Iterating that charge, however, and considering that my response was quite proximate to your post, made me feel that it was more proper to restore the post to which I had composed a reply than to post to "nobody" with the indents to prove it. Cheers - your mileage apparently varies. Collect (talk) 17:57, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

No I never made a charge against you. There was a miscommunication between the two of us, but at no point did I intend to lay a charge against you, except to say that I find it rude to restore a post when somebody deleted it when nobody made note of it. Your comment above, about "editing somebody's summary or view" made zero sense to me because we were talking around each other. I did not realize your comment above was referencing my notes on your summary. I understand your perspective a little more now, but it stems from miscommunication rather than "charges" laid against you to which you have to respond. Simple miscommunication. I still think your response on the main page should be deleted, as the comment on this page is now explained.---Balloonman ^{Poppa Balloon} 18:09, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

• Oppose closure - we need that summary and a few suggestions of voluntary actions for Fae to clean up this mess. Muddy restart, problematic actions, shaky RfA - Fae should turn in his admin bit and stand for another RfA at a time of his own choosing. Then it's all over, and he can move on. I'd have done that the first week. →StaniStani  02:10, 18 February 2012 (UTC)
• Support I go away for a week and it's still open! Clearly everything that will be said has been said. Johnbod (talk) 03:11, 18 February 2012 (UTC)
• Disgusted. Collect said below, "If no actions are undertaken, the next appropriate action would be raising the issue on an ArbCom board as this stage in Dispute Resolution has been met." This whole sorry scene has just been somebody's pro forma milestone on the path to an ArbCom case. It's up to Fae whether you count this as a support, an oppose, or a just plain vulgar epithet. Wnt (talk) 18:12, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

attempted summary

Collect, I appreciate your trying to create an alternative method to closure. But I have some major problems with your summary.

1. It's math is off relative to the two major points of view. 4 people explicitly stated that they are not calling for Fae's resignation in supporting the first view. Thus, while there are 45 people who supported that view, you cannot use it to directly contrast with Hobit's view. Heck, at least 2 people supported both views, thus saying 57% is wrong.
2. You use inflamatory language, "Some of us" voted one way, while "some of you" voted another. You place yourself in the "us" category (despite not !voting in the RfA).
3. majority of those opining feel that they were in any way misled This isn't accurate because there is no correlation between the participants of the RfA and RfC. "The majority of those opining on the RfC feels that the community was misled" is an accurate statement, but what you wrote is not. 128 people supported the RfA---most of those have not participated here. So we cannot conclude that the majority of people who voted in the RfA feel that they were misled, we can only state that the people who !voted now think the results would have been different if all the facts were known.
4. There were allegations of CANVASS---Russivia's and Wnt made such allegations. But I would agree that such allegations did not generate enough traction to negate the results either way.
5. RfCU is voluntary, so there is no enforcable sanction. The next step would be ArbCOM, but I don't see the support for such a step. In fact, if such a step were taken, I would consider it Forum Shopping.

If you rewrote your statement taking into consideration those issues, then I could support. The ideas are acceptable, just the execution fails on too many fundamental levels to support.---Balloonman ^{Poppa Balloon} 17:01, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

• Um -- the language you object to was a direct quote of Hobit's position. Nothing in the summary makes any claim whatsoever about "resignation" at all. Period. I did not see any remote consensus thereon, hence did not try adding it in. When I counted those "opining" your cavil is that I should have added "on the RFC/U" which I rather thought was obvious to those reading. Nothing you write here affects the accuracy and neutrality of my proposed summary, which you deleted once. Lastly you note that RFC/U is voluntary and ArbCom is the next step. Which is pretty much exactly what I wrote. Cheers - now let the others opine (hopefully not on my direct quoting of the two most-favoured positions. Collect (talk) 17:12, 17 February 2012 (UTC)
  • Um, what I deleted, was my conditional support---not your edits.[77].[78]This edit will show the differences on the main page between when I started to support and decided that I couldn't. [79] Notice---nothing changed. After I deleted my comments, you then re-inserted the conditional support that I decided were better presented here. So I find it ironic that you admonish me about redacting the edits of another.---Balloonman ^{Poppa Balloon} 17:16, 17 February 2012 (UTC)
    • Mea culpa - but absent that statement, my response appears really and utterly weird. Cheers - but usually "strikethrough" is what is used. Collect (talk) 17:22, 17 February 2012 (UTC)
      • Yes it does look weird, but usually when somebody pulls a support/comment from a page, it is pulled---unless they were responded to first. If you had responded to my deleted support, before I deleted it or if it had been there for more than a few minutes, then I would have left it. But the general practice I've always seen is that if somebody deletes a statement immediately after making it before it is responded to, let them. If somebody edit conflicts with a deleted comment, oh well, the comment was deleted before the response was made. It's gone. I've never seen somebody redact a struck statement back in just to refute it. Personally, I would delete your response, but that's not my call.---Balloonman ^{Poppa Balloon} 17:38, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

RE Your summary. 1) The use of "us" and "you" is not neutral. Since the participants of the RfC feel like the community was deceived, it comes accross sounding like: "Most of the participants here feel that the community was decceived in the rfa. Some of us were smart enough to realize this and opposed, but some of you weren't and supported." Don't make it "us" vs "you", make it "Some people felt they had enough information to support despite the holes in the past, while others felt that they didn't have enough information" or something along those lines. "Us" and "You" is partisan. 2) Clarify the piece about the majority of participants of the RfC feel the community was deceived. Many of the participants were not involved in the RfA thus, "they" were personally not deceived. And even 100% of the people who supported that view had participated in the RfA, it would not be a majority of RfA participants. This is a simple wording tweak, but makes a difference. 3) Saying there were no allegations of CANVASS isn't accurate, there were, but those didn't go far or affect the outcome. 4) Still disagree with the 57%. It is only accurate if you are using view 1 as a counter to Hobit's view. To say majority is accurate, but the percentage is not.---Balloonman ^{Poppa Balloon} 17:38, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

Blame Hobit - he was the one who used "us", not I. And I used his full and exact statement for the wording supported by 35 editors, and Themfromspace's full and exact statement supported by 45 editors. Now can you drop the claim that I somehow fudged their statements? I saw no significant allegations of CANVASS which would muddy the RFC/U. You are free to propose a statement in which you can state that the RFC/U was muddied by CANVASSing with appropriate evidence, of course. As for the precentages - I used the common proactice on RFCs - as I am not Dunninger at all. Cheers. Collect (talk) 17:48, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

Ok, I see what you did now. I didn't realize those were direct quotes of the two motions. In that case I can accept the percentage. But I would recommend making your statement clearer that they are quoting the two views. Indent them, put them in italics, put view 1/view 2 in front of them. Something, I thought you were summarizing the two views, which confused me because I couldn't figure out why YOU were using the "us" when YOU hadn't !voted in the RfA. Make that change, and I can support with apologies for not realizing that you were quoting rather than paraphrasing.---Balloonman ^{Poppa Balloon} 17:56, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

I stated that they are the two views, with the numbers supporting each. I can not, by the way, change "us" to "you" as those are the exact words of what people agreed to and supported. Thanks for your apology. Collect (talk) 18:00, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

Indent them, bullet them, put them in quotes or something... make it clear that you are quoting rather than summarizing. If they had been bulletted/quotationed/or anything, I think we would have avoided this whole discourse. Again it boils down to a simple miscommunication and that would help alleviate the miscommunication.---Balloonman ^{Poppa Balloon} 18:12, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

Re Canvass. 29 editors including myself have endorsed Rusavia's comment about the postings on WR. I've pointed out separately that if people were considering admin recall that canvassing alone would trigger the anti canvassing clause in Fae's admin recall criteria. User:Collect may not consider those allegations significant. But they should not be omitted or dismissed from any summary of the RFC. ϢereSpielChequers 22:23, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

In order to show a CANVASS violation having any impact on the discussion, it would be highly helpful to identify the people who came here as a result of the CANVASS. If the number so involved is small, then, indeed, the CANVASS muddying is minor. If the number is large (say, more than five), then the muddying may be of enough significance to note. In reading all' the posts (I believe the term is "glutton for punishment"), I found no obvious indication that anyone came here as a result of any CANVASS violations at all. Cheers. `Collect (talk)

EC While I don't think the summary should ignore the Canvass question like Collect did, I do agree with him that it didn't have a material impact on the outcome. The people who came here as a result did not sway the outcome or create a negative scenario. The view that some people felt deceived by Fae and thought that his RfA would hae failed if his former ID were known---no big deal. That's the only negative finding against Fae and I think it would have occured with or without the suspected Canvassing. None of the other issues gained enough support to be warrant a finding---not enough to ask him to step down or undergo a recall RfA. And frankly, I don't think there is enough of a consensus to use this RfCU as a foundation for an ArbCOM case. So even with Canvass alledgations, the supposed canvassers failed to convict.---Balloonman ^{Poppa Balloon} 22:41, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

The canvassing clearly wasn't sufficient to get a consensus for a desysop or frankly any formal result, though I doubt that many Arbs would be willing to vet similar RFA candidates in future. But that doesn't mean we can ignore the issue. To my mind it has muddied things and probably added to the tension. But of course you are right in that as what has emerged does not give grounds to take fae to Arbcom, any canvassing was insufficient to do that. ϢereSpielChequers 22:52, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

What ArbCOM should have done is simply to state, "Joe Schmoe is a clean start candidate, he had a clean start [before or after] abandoning his old account. When he left his old account he was a user in [good/bad] standing [with/without] a history of ANI/RfCU/etc. He notified ArbCOM about his clean start [fill in blank]". Keep it short and to the high level criteria. ArbCOM should not be vetting the candidates nor should the Arb gotten as involved personally with the RfA as this one did IN THE ROLE OF AN ARB. John's mistake here is that he became Fae's advocate and people expected him to have fully vetted Fae before taking the stance he did. (We've since learned that John hadn't done what we thought he had.)---Balloonman ^{Poppa Balloon} 15:19, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

I doubt if any Arb will willing take on such a role in the near future, though I think that a pity. I'm aware that JV has had to remind people of what he said in Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/Fæ. But I'm not aware that he has qualified or recanted anything he said there. We can of course speculate as to whether his judgement was correct that if people had known the identity of the former account there would have been as many opposes, but not necessarily the same opposes as there were because people did not know its identity. For what its worth I'm not seeing many people who participated in both opining that they would have voted differently had they known the identity of the former account. I would still have been a Support, would you have still been an Oppose? ϢereSpielChequers 15:39, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

I honestly don't know. I do know that when the RfA was ongoing that I was completely prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt if his change had been legit.

The thing that would have probably done him in, however, would have been the characterization that he did the clean start AFTER the RfCU---not in leiu of one. That mischaracterization is almost as big of a concern for me as the nature of the RfCU itself... for all I know, the first RfCU against Ash could have been as weak and unsubstantiated as this one was. An RfCU which resulted in no sanctions would be weighed as such, but when we asked if there were sanctions we were told that we couldn't be told because that would help identify the case... not that the person fled during the RfCU. Unfortunately, by leaving, that would have put his departure under a cloud.---Balloonman ^{Poppa Balloon} 16:33, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Attempted summary (moved from evidence page)

There are basically two views which are present:

Ash quit under a cloud, with an active user RFC containing serious allegations about reliable sources and BLPs. If Fae really is Ash, ArbCom erred greatly in letting him stand for adminship without disclosing his past account to the community. With full transparency, its very likely the RfA wouldn't have passed. (supported by 45 editors)

It was clear during the RfA what exactly was happening. We knew there was an old account. We knew that an RfC/U existed on the user. We knew this was a problem user. Some of us !voted to oppose because we felt that the secret information was unacceptable for an RfA. Some of you !voted to support because you felt you had enough information based on Fæ's edits. If John or Fæ had lied or even actively misled folks during the RfA that would be a problem. I've seen no evidence of that. John seemed perfectly frank. As did Fæ. They clearly told us what they weren't telling us. In no way was anyone misled. I don't see the basis for any complaint about the RfA. (supported by 34 editors)

What is in common with both:

The user involved Fae/Ash was a "problem user."

Some information was not given to the editors at the RfA.

What is in opposition:

The RfA would likely not have passed.

There is no basis for any complaint about the RfA.

Outside fact:

RfAs require substantially more than a majority !vote. Where a majority of those opining feel that they were in any way misled, even if a minority sees no basis for complaint, the possibility that the RfA, if full disclosure had been made, would have failed is clearly quite high. Thus the opinion of the 45 editors (representing 57% of those opining on the two major views) may be substantially sufficient to reach that conclusion ab initio.

Outside fact:

Fae has apparently apologized to Brenneman, whose statement is in the main body of this page.

Likely result:

An RFC/U has no binding authority on any editor, although a closing admin may seek to impose a voluntary sanction of some sort. Minimal allegations of CANVASS etc. which would muddy this RFC/U have been made at this point. If no actions are undertaken, the next appropriate action would be raising the issue on an ArbCom board as this stage in Dispute Resolution has been met. Cheers. Collect (talk) 16:33, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

• • Note the material is directly the same and identical to the positions the two major groups agreed with. I did not try "subtracting overlap" as that would mean I was inserting my own interpretation as to what they intended - simpler to use the two totals, as a simple matter of procedure. And one which has generally been followed in such RFC/Us, as a matter of fact. I would, and shall not change what Hobit wrote, nor should anyone. Cheers. Collect (talk) 17:01, 17 February 2012 (UTC)
  • Also note that this summary makes no statement at all as to anyone "stepping down". If someone else adds that to their summary, 'meh". But it is not in the above summary, and thus is not really directly relevant to the summary. Cheers. Collect (talk) 17:05, 17 February 2012 (UTC)
    • The above were written in response to a deleted accusation that I misrepresented what Hobit clearly wrote. I regret that this now looks like I am speaking to "nobody" but that was that editor's specific ddesire. Cheers. Collect (talk) 17:28, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

For what it's worth, I don't think that was his specific desire. As he explained to you on the talk page, he removed his comments 7 minutes after they were posted and before you or anyone else posted a response. Just to set the record straight. Nathan ^T 20:20, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

I wrote the response proximate to his initial post. Meanwhile, one should note his apology for his misapprehensions as to this summary. Cheers. Collect (talk) 20:42, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, but I made a post. Before any response had been made, I decided to redact the post and to follow up on the talk page---where it was more appropriate. So before any response was made and seven minutes after making it, I deleted it. I'm sorry that you were working on a response to my post here, but generally people don't bother to respond to posts when the original post is deleted before their response is made. I frankly find it petty.

I should also note that your characterization of my post is utterly wrong and ridiculous. I did not make an accusation you misrepresented what hobit wrote; I thought you were summarizing the issues---you failed to indent/italicize/bullet the views and called the section a "summary." But if you want to hold to your misinterpretation of my statement, that is fine. Personally, I think this thread should be delted in entirety as it detracts from the subject at hand, but if you insist on keeping this here... I'll continue to consider it petty.---Balloonman ^{Poppa Balloon} 21:53, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

re "Fae/Ash was a problem user", I think you'll find that a lot of people differentiate between the two accounts, or rather accept John Vandenberg's position that the person behind the accounts refocussed. I can see a few outliers who either defend the Ash account or criticise the Fae edits, but my reading is that they are outliers, people may disagree as to how serious the issues were with Ash's edits, but most would agree that Ash needed to make some changes. Very few seem to dispute that the editing focus has substantially changed, even if they point to the incident of the nickname in an AFD. I don't particularly like the phrase "problem user" and would have preferred something more like "The community was concerned about a proportion of User:Ash's edits from two or more years ago." ϢereSpielChequers 21:42, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

IIRC, you endorsed Hobit's statement which included those precise words. Collect (talk) 22:34, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

I wasn't going to respond to this, until I saw your edit summary. But I find it interesting that two people could read your summary and both have misunderstanding of what you were saying... even after redacting it, it apparently is not as clearly written as you thought.---Balloonman ^{Poppa Balloon} 22:49, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

@Collect. Hobit used the words problem user, he did not apply them to the Fae account. "Fae/Ash was a problem user" are your words not his. What objection do you have to "The community was concerned about a proportion of User:Ash's edits from two or more years ago."? My view is that such a wording would be common ground and accepted by the vast majority in this RFC. ϢereSpielChequers 23:04, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

I would ask you to note Hobit's exact words, which I sought to echo. We knew this was a problem user seems to refer to the user, not to a username. Cheers. Collect (talk) 01:12, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

Hobit's exact words did not include "Fae/Ash was a problem user". That both accounts belong to the same user is not in dispute. But much of this RFC has revolved on the issue of whether or not that user successfully used Cleanstart to change the focus of their editing, your words "Fae/Ash was a problem user" is in my view far too close to the view of a small minority who think that "Fae/Ash is a problem user". Whereas "The community was concerned about a proportion of User:Ash's edits from two or more years ago." is in my view a statement that unambiguously summarises something that almost all participants can agree on. ϢereSpielChequers 02:06, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

• I appreciate the good faith effort to try to derive a summary, but this one seems to me to be seriously off the mark, and not just as a matter of some problem words. It seems to focus entirely on the question of whether the RfA was OK or not OK. Sure, that's one of the issues that has received a lot of attention here, but it wasn't the only one. There are issues of how ArbCom et al. should handle these things (touched on only in passing), how BLPs should be edited, how porn-related pages should be edited, how users should conduct themselves when starting new accounts, what Fae should do going forward, how users' personal lives (including sexual orientation) should be treated by the community, how discussion of personal matters off-site should be regarded (especially with respect to hounding and privacy), and very probably other things I'm forgetting just now. And there should be constructive recommendations going forward. Respectfully, I'd suggest starting over from scratch, by looking at all of the "views" and including everything that had significant levels of endorsement. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:18, 18 February 2012 (UTC)
  • Which views would you suggest had majority approval at least in reference to getting any consensus at all in this RFC/U? I rather think that trying to enumerate every single position would result in a summary quite as long as the initial page, with no actual conclusions being makable thereon. Cheers. Collect (talk) 01:10, 18 February 2012 (UTC)
    • Let me begin by apologizing that, due to having limited editing time because I'm busy in real life, I didn't simply "sofixit" by trying to go through and write a suggested draft myself. And you are to be congratulated for making the attempt. That said, the approach I would use would be to begin by ignoring those views that got only a few endorsements. Then I would look at everything that got more than a few, and try to summarize those. You are, of course, entirely correct that it won't be possible to do this without having a lot of listed points, and that it will not be possible to derive a consensus for any major conclusions about which "side" was "right". But it will be possible to say that significant numbers of editors agreed with X and significant numbers with Y, where X and Y are to some extent opposing views. More usefully, it will be possible to say that there were some widely agreed upon observations where editors from both "sides" signed on, and that there are some constructive suggestions for going forward that can be derived from those. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:31, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

• This proposed summary misrepresents the vote because Russavia's view (29 votes) is not included. There were 14 editors (TCO, ReaperEternal, Wnt, PaoloNapolitano, Herostratus, StaniStani, MtD, Sam Blacketer, Bidgee, Victuallers, œ™, Exok, Nanobear, Nick-D) who made statements supportive of Fae but signed on to neither of the views cited above, probably because we do not agree that Ash was a "problem user" in the first place. Wnt (talk) 18:04, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

Observation

I'm not going to go on a soapbox and rant, because in the end, it doesn't matter. This RfC is destined to close as a no consensus one way or the other. There's no changing that now no matter how long it's left open.

My observation? Keeping this open any longer is merely going to continue to stir up bad blood. This is not a good thing. It's time to close this; prior to the attempt to add the motion to close (speaking of which, Tarc, you edited MY post by removing my addition of the padlock image, which merely illustrated my opinion, and now my opinion looks incomplete), there was practically no activity on the page for an entire week. It is in the best interests of the community to lock discussion, revert any forthcoming edits, and allow an uninvolved administrator to assess a closure. That is the only way forward. Having several users (Tarc and D.C. are the most noticed ones to my eyes) insisting that this must be kept open for procedure's sake does nothing more than continue to stir up bad blood - not that of Fæ, but that between editors whose opinions differ, or who might dare bring up sexual orientation in discussions here. Regardless of their opinions (overall, not merely two editors), their insistence to set a timeline where one does not exist and really should not exist (activity is really the main thing to consider, and an RfC could go three months is there's enough interest) is making these editors look uncooperative and incapable of working within a community setting, and not fit to edit on Wikipedia themselves. By such editors' behaviour here, it paints a bad light on them and makes it less likely that other Wikipedians will want to work with them in the future.

But again, this is just my observation. I am sure these editors are going to come up here and tear my observation apart and try to find a reason that my observation is faulty and not based on principles in WP:SOMEPOLICYHERE just to make a point. These are the very editors who need another hobby. That is my observation. Don't let it sway anyone in any way. CycloneGU (talk) 06:24, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

Users agreeing with the above observation:

Discussion on the above observation

I don't think you have anything to worry about with regards to the last sentence. Not sure I agree with the first one, though. Removal of the padlock by Tarc was only possible because nobody else did it first - check the history. We already have a discussion about closing, so I'm not sure what this section is for. Begoon ^talk 06:49, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

This is the equivalent of a statement of position on the project page. This is my position. Complete with a section reserved for those agreeing with my position. Obviously if I made another motion to close I'd be nothing more than someone trying to defend Fæ by sweeping things under the rug. That's what the negative must-follow-procedure people I've most noticed seem to be tagging such requests as. CycloneGU (talk) 13:54, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

Oh, ok. Thanks for trying to explain it. Begoon ^talk 22:47, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

summary

ArbCom pooched up by implying things were cool during Fae's Rfa, but they weren't cause he stretched the truth about his cleanstart but it doesn't matter because we should have known better and this was just started by a bunch of editors who are all homophobes except all the ones who aren't so Fae should redo the Rfa but he doesn't need to cause he's been okay since becoming an admin. ArbCom needs to get it's act together but we shouldn't throw the next cleanstart Rfa candidate under the bus 'cause of this. Nobody Ent 18:32, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

Kudos.---Balloonman ^{Poppa Balloon} 21:26, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

Alternatively, RfC/U really doesn't accomplish anything. Except when it does. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:20, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

• Endorse initial summary, and Tryptofish's micro-summary. This does, of course, leave the whole King John and Isabelle thing "dangling", but we may have to live with that. Begoon Begoon ^talk 03:42, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

Lack of response

The closing summary must mention that Fæ did not respond to the RFC/U. For a user without advanced privileges this would be a cause for concern; in the case of an administrator it's an outright violation of policy. ReverendWayne (talk) 13:52, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

I would be more concerned if this RfCU was actually about Fae. It wasn't. It was more about the failure of the RfA last year, John's role in it as an ARB, the motives behind some of the users/Wikipedia Review. The RfCU quickly lost focus and became something about everything and anything BUT Fae. It let the whole issue focus on the veracity of the RfA---not Fae's avoidance of the previous RfCU nor any continued BLP issues. And sorry, the motives of this RfCU were questionable. I'm not going ot jump on the homophobic bandwagon which has been bandied about, but beyond the people who were upset with how the RfA went down, this RfCU felt vindictive/out to get blood for bloods sake. It was clear there was bad blood between Ash/Fae and many of the more vocal voices in opposition to him; he probably didn't feel the need/desire to justify what many perceived to be harrassment. That, plus the fact that it was pretty clear weeks ago that this RfC wasn't going to go anyplace. Why would he?---Balloonman ^{Poppa Balloon} 17:01, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

There's a good part of what you've said here that I can agree with. But to the question "Why would he?" the answer is this: "Administrators are expected to respond promptly and civilly to queries about their Wikipedia-related conduct and administrator actions and to justify them when needed." That's from the Administrators policy. Messy as this RFC/U has been, it's not as if there have been no serious questions raised. He made a false statement in his RfA, and it is not unreasonable to think that it made a difference in the outcome. He was given a chance to respond to the question outside this RFC/U, on his own talk page, but he did not. Regardless of other arguments raised here, or the motivations of any of the participants, I think these points stand. Administrators must be accountable, and not only for their use of the tools. ReverendWayne (talk) 18:05, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

I won't disagree with you either. He probably should have... but if you felt harrassed (a view endorsed by 29 people) or questioned the propreity of the RfCU (a view supported by 20 people); perhaps you wouldn't want to give it credence by responding. This was a kangaroo court from the beginning. It did nothing, accomplished nothing, and remained open much longer than it should have.---Balloonman ^{Poppa Balloon} 18:29, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

This has been a rather fractious RFC, but I'm pretty sure that no-one has queried Fae's administrator actions. As for his conduct, we have one rehashed incident that had already been closed and the bizarre suggestion that it is a COI breach to add an image to wikipedia where you are the photographer. Everything else is somewhat stale. There is a reason that RFC policy requires you to try and resolve the dispute first - if that doesn't happen you are liable to get this sort of mess. ϢereSpielChequers 00:11, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

You appear to have read far different opinions here than I read. Collect (talk) 01:16, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

I think I've read them all. Even the most negative ones don't criticise his GLAM work or his administrator actions. RFCs on editors really ought to be focussed on a current dispute with that editor. They need to be preceded by unsuccessful attempts to resolve the dispute with that editor and evidence that the dispute is ongoing and therefore needs to be escalated to an RFC. This RFC failed that in many ways. By contrast, the original RFC from two years ago was an unusually successful one. There was a clear problem - the community doesn't want articles on non-notable gay porn actors and after the RFC was filed Ash responded by ceasing editing and launched a new account which doesn't edit articles on Gay porn actors. Porn bios are a problem to us because the porn industry has a vested interest in promoting its product even after the actors involved have decided to move on to new stages in their lives. Even the more inclusionist of us, and I count myself an active member of the Article Rescue Squadron, usually get quite deletionist when we know that a former porn actor wants to break with their past. So an editor creating bios of pornstars and using sources linked to that industry is a classic example of a goodfaith editor whose editing we want to change. Thankfully in this case we succeeded, which is why in the absence of anyone suggesting that Ash or Fae resume writing articles on Gay porn stars, an RFC on something that stopped a couple of years ago was never going to be useful or constructive. ϢereSpielChequers 16:20, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

This RfC will be useful if it prevents Arbcom and RfA voters from being so careless about clean-start candidates in future, and if it has made Fae aware that his edits to BLPs will be under scrutiny from now. BTW, the problems with the Ash account were a little more serious than merely using sources linked to the porn industry. Epbr123 (talk) 16:46, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

And is that a good thing? To a degree yes, an arbitrator failed in Ashes first RfA and the community turned a blind eye to what was a legitimate issue for concern. People with questionable histories should not be able to go through RfA a year after the issue without full disclosure. That being said, there are legitimate reasons for a clean start; and those reasons need to be protected without making it impossible for a clean start candidate to become an admin. The problem here is that the community, not Fae, was dumb. The community didn't demand full disclosure despite some vocal voices pointing out the problem.---Balloonman ^{Poppa Balloon} 16:51, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.