Wikipedia talk:Articles for deletion/Johnny Lee Clary (2nd nomination)

Resons why clary is notable.

Ku Klux Klan history

He was Dave Dukes body Guard. He was the youngest Grand Dragon of the Oklahoma KKK as testified by Wade Watts and the radio interview where they met. He was the Imperial Wizard of the KKK i.e. the US leader (very notable). He was on Oprah Winfrey and Morton Downey Jr as the KKK's national leader see: http://www.johnnyleeclary.com/Life%20Summary.htm for pics. He spent much time with Bill Wilkerson and other notable members of the KKK Under Wilkerson he rose to become the Grand Dragon. See http://www.johnnyleeclary.com/Life%20Summary.htm for pics. Also see http://www.johnnyleeclary.com/johnnyleeclaryvideo.wmv

I can't say I really find the idea of being a leader of a contemporary KKK organization all that notable by itself. It's like leading a chapter of the Rotary Club (in terms of people influenced - obviously I'm not equating the Rotary Club with the KKK). Also, those sources are no good for verifiability - they're all from JLC's own site. And the fact that there is no coverage from independent, reliable sources that we've been able to find is another indication that the activities were not that notable. --Siobhan Hansa 12:48, 31 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Wrestling History

He won the Arkansas Heavyweight Title in a tournament in 1986. He appeared on Kansas City All Star Wrestling shows with the National Wrestling Federation. He wrestled for the NWF with Mad Dog, D.C. Drake Sgt. Slaughter, Bam Bam Bigalow, Dusty Wolfe, Bruiser Brody, Pork Chop Bobby Cash, Ron The Bull McFarland, Bulldog Bob Brown, The Fantastics, Peggy Lee, and Wendi Richter, (World Women's Champion) managed by 80's rock singer Cyndi Lauper. See where Drake says that Johnny managed him http://www.wrestlingclothesline.com/PeterDCDrake.htm and also where he appears on Obsessed with Wrestling http://www.onlineworldofwrestling.com/profiles/j/johnny-angel.html If you look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:McPhail there are heaps of other wrestlers of similar notability with wrestling bios. Although not everyone’s cup of tea, people go through wrestling bios specifically; to have this merged could be beneficial for Clary's bio as Wrestling fans would go there, but it seems that his KKK and Christian activities are much more notable. For instance Sting became a Christian but remains a wrestler and his bio is mainly about that http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sting_%28wrestler%29 Also Nikita Koloff is now a preacher but is more known for his wrestling. Thus his bio is the traditional wiki wrestling one http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikita_Koloff Clary would have been much more notable if he hadn't been banned for being in the Klan.

Christian History

He has appeared on Oprah, Geraldo, Montel, Jerry Springer, Rikki Lake, Phil Donahue, Sally Jessy, and Pat Robertson's 700 Club. Johnny is an evangelist is notable enough to travel the world preaching the gospel and teaching against racism. The head director of Operation, has appeared on Billy Graham's Radio show, Geraldo Rivera, Sally Jessy Raphael, Jerry Springer, Rikki Lake, Queen Latifah, Carol and Marilyn Real Friends, Montel Williams, Phil Donahue, A&E Investigative Reports, ABC World News Tonight, Bertrice Berry, Rolanda, The Today Show, A Current Affair, NBC's Donny Deutsch The Big Idea, and The 700 Club, TBN's Praise The Lord show, many national and international Newspapers and National TV Shows in Australia, England, Holland, Northern Ireland, Scotland, Sweden, and Wales. He has appeared all over the Nation of Australia on ABC Radio as well as ABC's "Enough Rope" hosted by Andrew Denton also appeared with the Australian KKK leader on the Today show in Australia. http://www.johnnyleeclary.com/endorsements.htm Johnny's ministry was voted the number one ministry against racism in the US. He has written Boys in the Hoods http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/1562294482/sr=8-1/qid=1157008727/ref=sr_1_1/002-2804196-4666450?ie=UTF8 He has made DVD’s about his life and appeared in the book The Day I Met God and also had his story on Billy Joe Daugherty's "The Power of Forgiveness" TBN Special only recently.

Comment Regarding Clary's book listed above: "Amazon.com Sales Rank: #1,743,200 in Books". Fan-1967 12:55, 31 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Potters House - do you have an independent source for the "Voted #1 ministry against racism" claim? Voted by whom? That could be a nice addition to the article. --Siobhan Hansa 13:07, 31 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I have followed advised Wiki policy

The only reason I tried to get JL Clary and others going is because I wasn’t sure of Wiki Policy. I never put the article up, but asked Admin what I should do seeing Feldspa was deleting almost everything I was doing on Wiki and was stalking my posts. It was kindly suggested by Catherine what to do. So I did it I drafted User:Potters house/Johnny Lee Clary and have written to everyone who was involved in the original delete.

She said:

Hi Nick. I don't think you've run afoul of a conspiracy, just the policies of Wikipedia. It's not about keeping Clary and related topics out, it's about remaining neutral, verifiable, and reliable. If you can write a good article that meets our policies (not always straightforward or easy for a newbie, especially on a topic that has already prompted admin action), it might have a chance. I am NOT giving you or Clary any sort of guarantee that a new article will be kept -- it might end up going through the Deletion process again -- but I think a new, thoroughly encyclopedic article written from scratch will at least give people a fresh look at the subject.

Please carefully read the policies at Wikipedia:Five pillars, Wikipedia:Verifiability, Wikipedia:Reliable sources, Wikipedia:Neutral point of view, and pursue the many clarifying links from those pages if you are confused about anything. Take your time reading this stuff -- really understanding these policies is going to make a huge difference in how your article is accepted!

You can try writing a draft of an article in your userspace, for example, User:Potters house/Johnny Lee Clary, following all the advice at Wikipedia:Guide to writing better articles and Wikipedia:Citing sources. Be sure not to copy text directly from any site, especially Clary's -- use the facts there, and use footnotes to cite the source of the facts, but write the sentences in your own words. Attribute all opinions to their source; otherwise be sure to write neutrally. Also be sure to include cited evidence about Clary's notability. Don't try to put pictures in now; if the article is kept, then you can ask for more advice on getting pictures with a proper license.

Keep working on the article until you feel it is finished, then ask me or other folks who have helped you before for advice on improving it (at Wikipedia:Requests for feedback, for example). Then invite the admin who deleted it before, and those who voted at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Johnny Lee Clary, to look at it again. Think about their comments carefully, and incorporate their suggestions. IF all goes well, they will agree that it will make a worthwhile article, and it can be moved to the main namespace. (I'd let an admin move it, to minimize confusion over the "should not be recreated" tag.)

I hope that helps, and good luck! — Catherine\^talk 02:43, 27 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I think it was deleted because Clary had written his own bio and wasn’t using Wiki correctness. This got him in trouble. (I did this on The Potter’s House aticle when I started but thankfully just went unoticed and have since grown in understanding, phew!)

I actually thought at the time that Neo Nazi’s were against the article being on Wiki, that is why I created some more (J L Clary etc), just to see who would delete it, and then do a witch hunt. I have learned that it is mostly to do with Wiki policy and understanding Wiki manerizims now, although there is an alarming amount of pro KKK, Nazi and White Supremist stuff on Wiki. Clary often recieves death threats and hate mail etc, so you can understand, if you look into these groups and consider exactly what Clary says about them, why I thought this Potters house 08:21, 31 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The extra article creations were not malicious, although their were against policy. After a month of the article being worked on in his own userspace (with help from me and others), I nominated it for re-creation and it was accepted.

The current article state is: rough draft, needs work. It's no better or worse than many other newborn articles. The only complicating factor is that there isn't much published material which isn't autobiographical. But that's no reason for deletion, it's a good reason for being careful about sources. --Uncle Ed 13:22, 31 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, Nick, you did assume, with absolutely no proof, that anyone who was opposed to Johnny Lee Clary having an article on Wikipedia must be a Neo-Nazi, and that is why you sent a message to over thirty editors accusing me of being a "covert racist" and alleging that because I reverted two edits by a banned user to John Kerry back in 2005 that means I must be a Kerry supporter who was on a vendetta against Clary because Clary was a Bush supporter. "just to see who would ... do a witch hunt?" Oh, yeah, I think we know who's out there burning witches, all right. -- Antaeus Feldspar 14:13, 31 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

If he did this, he should be admonished. I'll check his contribs. --Uncle Ed 14:28, 31 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I have admonished him. I supply no diff, because I want to give him same "space" on this. But I daresay an apology is in order. --Uncle Ed 15:57, 31 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Antaeus Feldspar has continually followed me around Wiki deleting articles and reverting my posts. I put my foot down recently on the Potters House site after I proved that the person running the site that Antaeus Feldspar and Tillman insisted be put up ran another site claiming that I was a homosexual and had left my church and was an internet porn freak etc, etc. I had to make a similar site about Rick Ross (which I have since deleted) to get them to remove the links. I tried mediation but no one helped. I complained to many, many people but Adhoc was the only help and he is not even an admin. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Potter%27s_House_Christian_Fellowship

Also I never said that he WAS a Nazi or anything but concluded that because he wanted to delete the Wade Watts article so quickly that PERHAPS he has an issue with Clary. Clary receives death threats daily and I myself am beginning to receive emails from race hate groups concerning my recent association with him and my stand against the KKK in our area see www.kkkau.com

This was my original post to Admins: Hey there, my name is Nick, my username is Potters house and I have encountered a problem with trying to provide any information about Johnny Lee Clary. I have posted this post off to other staff members also. I am not sure if this is the best route to resolve this, but can think of no other way.

The article Johnny Lee Clary has been deleted. I have known Johnny through telephone conversations and email for a short time now (about 3-4 months). He recently came and shared his life story in for our church group for the first time just two weeks ago. Before I met Johnny I became interested in his story i.e. his conversion from the head of the KKK in the US, to being a Christian Minister who now teaches against race hate groups. I found the article Johnny Lee Clary as it still is today, deleted, except for some small talk. If you read the talk you see what I have said at the time (notice I have gotten no reply, probable my fault as I don’t know heaps about WIKI policy). From my understanding Johnny Lee Clary was posting as The KingOfDixie and looks like he tried to change a few things on Wiki concerning the KKK. While this is a controversial subject, Johnny being the former leader of the KKK would probably know a thing or two and be able to contribute, but that’s another story. He eventually made an article about himself i.e. Johnny Lee Clary. Johnny being quite new to Wiki and ignorant of rules of conduct found himself at odds with some admins and had his site deleted.

Whilst observing Johnny over the last 3-4 months I have noticed that he is very outspoken against race hate groups such as the Neo Nazis, Skinheads, KKK etc. This, more often than not, lands Johnny in the hot seat. He has experienced persecution from racist groups for his departure from the KKK and voiced opinions against these racist organizations on his webpage, www.xkkk.org. Johnny has also received multiple death threats.

Because of his bold stance against these racist groups Johnny has become accustomed to hatred directed at him by those same groups. Johnny concluded that perhaps the guy who deleted the page Johnny Lee Clary was a white supremist. I am hoping to clear this up. Before he told me this, I started to create J L Clary, after hearing nothing from posting in user talk on Johnny Lee Clary's article. I wasn't 10 minutes into the J L Clary article when it was issued a deletion notice, and then before I had time to reply (about 5 minutes) it was deleted! I was amazed. I told this to Johnny and he said the main reason he was told that he couldn't have an article was because he was not prominent enough.

Johnny has a very famous testimony and has been on multiple TV shows like Oprah, Donahue, Jerry Springer, etc, and even recently when he preached in our town he made front page news, a double spread on his life, and the local ABC interviewed him live, which is not bad for our town (LISMORE NSW Australia) See http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=John_Kerry&dir=prev&offset=20050327125109&limit=500&action=history .

When David Wilkerson came to our town hardly anyone knew or cared, yet David Wilkerson is allowed an article (and rightfully so), but more people know of Johnny. As to whether he is famous or not, just Google search him and see all the TV interviews and radio interviews he does. He hangs with some of the most prominent Christian leaders in Australia. Besides this, just being the former KKK leader should be enough for an article (he doesn't even get a mention in the KKK one, and would be deleted). He was also a Pro Wrestler. So he is prominent in Christian circles, he is prominent amongst race hate groups, and he is also prominent in the WWE wrestling.

Johnny asked me to test the waters for him to see if he was being persecuted by someone from a race hate group. So I created some sites, John Clary, Wade Watts and Operation Colorblind - the name of Johnny's Ministry. These have been fine until yesterday. I cannot understand why these sites are just issued a deletion notice? Just because they mention JLC? I was hoping to discuss these things but they are just deleted. The one on Wade Watts is about a black gospel preacher who was one of the leaders in the civil rights movement in the US and was good friends with Martin Luther King. He took Johnny Clary under his wing and even ordained Johnny as a minister (to this day Johnny is the only white man ordained in the All Black Baptist Church). But his article is up for deletion because I mentioned Clary and had a link.

That is why I am writing to you to see if you can help. It seems to me that the person(s) deleting all articles which even mention Johnny Lee Clary has an agenda. I thought that wikipedia admins had to keep a neutral stance on every article. It seems like this guy has a vendetta against JLC. Why delete the Wade Watts article. That is guilt by association and could be proof that all deletions are because of racial discrimination! I hope this is not the case and would think that it is politically motivated, as Johnny is a strong supporter of George Bush and Antaeus Feldspar of Kerry.

See:

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=John_Kerry&dir=prev&offset=20050327125109&limit=500&action=history This shows how Antaeus Feldspar supports Kerry, which is fine, but Johnny is a strong supporter of Bush.

My hope is that Johnny will be able to have an article like any other famous person, minister, former KKK leader, or pro wrestler, and that Johnny and anyone connected with him and his ministry will in future have certain rules set in place that do not allow the wholesale deletion of the articles associated with him, but that they will be at least discussed.

I thank you for reading this long winded post. I have only been using WIKI for about a year myself so I need your help, I don't really know what else to do. I hope you can help. I personally think that Johnny's story is one that is beneficial to the cause of reconciliation between races and to the3 unity of society as a whole. It would be a shame if WIKI became known for having covert racists. Of course I hope that this is a misunderstanding and that all will be cleared up soon.

Here are some links that might help.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wade_Watts

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:TheKingOfDixie

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Colorblind

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Threeafterthree

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Potters_house

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Deletion_policy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Antaeus_Feldspar

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=John_Kerry&dir=prev&offset=20050327125109&limit=500&action=history This shows how Antaeus Feldspar supports Kerry, which is fine, but Johnny is a strong supporter of Bush. Perhaps the bias is political and not racial?

The link for page: John Clary has already been deleted!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alabamaboy

Please notice that his link was taken from the KKK site the same day:

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ku_Klux_Klan&diff=prev&oldid=65690238

then

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ku_Klux_Klan&diff=next&oldid=65690238

Also note his contributions: Featured articles: • African American literature -- My first featured article. Thanks to everyone who gave feedback. While I didn't start the article, I obsessed on it for an entire month and wrote most of the copy. • Ku Klux Klan -- I began work on this article after it became a featured article. Since then I've mediated several editorial disputes on the article (including one of which kept the article from being delisted as a FA) and made a large number of edit. Potters house 00:21, 27 July 2006 (UTC) Nick.

Notice that I said - It '''''seems''''' to me that the person(s) deleting all articles which even mention Johnny Lee Clary has an agenda.

Please note that this was immediately after the Deletion of Operation Colorblind and when Wade Watts was up for deletion. I assumed (wrongly) that someone may have a racial agenda, but concluded that it is most likely a political agenda but not conclude that it is because I am part of the Potter's House Church which is falsely considered a cult by Rick Ross (a sensationalized 'cult buster') who Antaeus Feldspar defends and (seems) to work for.

I am apologise that it does seem like I am accusing you, but your behaviour towards me has been very bad. The stalking has to stop. I tire of trying to defend myself agaisnt this man.

On pages that I have started see his reaction, it is never helpful. I am learning but this guy has no grace on me whatsoever.

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wade_Watts&action=history

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Gary_Wilkerson&action=history

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Chambers

See http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Contributions&offset=20060810130205&limit=50&target=Antaeus+Feldspar

Sorry if this is POV or whatever but it is really happening he refuses to talk and mediate about anything until I crack it! Potters house 03:47, 1 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

By George - I think you have something there Nick - I checked your links above and I think you are being stalked by Antaeus Feldspar - it does seem that not many are interested - such a shame this article is up for deletion, it could become a great article with a bit of work. 220.233.86.223 07:54, 1 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah! Imagine if you were preparing to go for your drivers licence and some police officer pulled you over and gave you a ticket every time you did something wrong. He tailgated you all over town and each time you stated your car, he was right there. That's how I feel. Like can't this guy cut me some slack, I am still just learning you know! Potters house 08:23, 1 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I can't recall adding "Clary seems to be his own greatest fan" in the user post, it must have been a mistake, or maybe I cut it to comment on it and posted it by mistake. Anyhow Sorry to all parties. Potters house 08:21, 1 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Gee, let's see. Potters house is informed several times, by different editors, that his failure to assume good faith of Antaeus Feldspar and instead to level baseless accusations that Antaeus Feldspar is a "covert racist", a fanatic John Kerry partisan, and a stalker, is not acceptable Wikipedia behavior and should be apologized for. Which of the following happens?

Nick actually apologizes for his hurtful misbehavior.
An anonymous editor shows up out of nowhere (not unlike the three-and-counting editors who have come out of nowhere to cast "Keep" votes on Nick's article!) to tell Nick "you're right! You don't actually need to apologize for your own poor behavior! You are instead entitled to perpetuate your attacks on the people who tried to clean up after your poor behavior and didn't do so in a way that perfectly pleased you!"

Anyone who thinks it's the former doesn't know Nick. I have to wonder if 220.233.86.223 would have shown up, had Nick been aware that administrators can check whether 220.233.86.223 is the address he logs in as "Potters house" from. -- Antaeus Feldspar 12:51, 1 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I have to agree that the assumption of bad faith is offensive, and the anon IP's behavior is suspicious. I am also curious as to why, if Clary is allegedly so prominent in the US, support needs to come from an IP in Australia. Fan-1967 13:20, 1 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Give it a rest, folks. What's done is done. This page is only for talking about the ARTICLE, not about personalities. I suggest all sides cool off and enjoy the Labor Day weekend. --Uncle Ed 13:50, 1 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Firstly, the only person accusing me is you Antaeus Feldspar. You don't like me because Timan, Ross, Fossa and others have beef with the Potter's House Church. That's fine we all have our own religious beliefs and personal views. But to claim that Kev who is 220.233.86.223 is me is misleading, and the type of thing you seem to accuse me of yet I am always the one who has to apologize! I know this guy personally and he was on Wiki way before me. He also goes to the Potter's House and has had major contribs. If you show me where this is fact perhaps I can explain! Until then the only reason I can think is that he runs many web sites that I make and I may have logged on once at his home, but I doubt that and I am asking you to prove this accusation to me, or else apologize for lying and claiming that I am a liar. Clary has spent the past 8 Months in Australia and is a hit here appearing on major TV, Radio and Newspaper interviews weekly. So I apologize for assuming that Feldspa could have been acting in a discriminating way when deleting Wade Watts' bio. But is it not the same when he now calls me a liar, deceiver and also earlier stalked me. I have constantly requested mediation but his buddies Timan, Fossa, and others seemed to gang up on me. Hey I may not have all the Wiki language down, and may not say things right. But Feldspar has been harassing me. How can I make a formal complaint on wiki about him? As you can see, this whole deletion thing is his idea and now I am wasting huge amounts of time (once again) trying to defend myself for this guy. He trys to get people offside with me but why? Because I am a Christian and he is a cult buster.

Secondly, this guy has wasted about 20 hours of my time in the last 2 months by deleting my articles in which I have to continually have to defend and explain myself.

He has been vandalizing my articles by following me around Wiki harassing me, refusing mediation and making no compromises whatsoever, not even talking about the issue when I have continually requested it and even deleting the posts I put on his talk page requesting mediation and then saying things like "Hey, Nick! When were you, you know, planning to let me know that you'd opened this case? Hmmmm? Opening a case against another party and not notifying them -- not a real indicator of acting in good faith." when he DELETED the talk I put on his page a few days before so it looked bad for me.”

See the mediation which I had to initiate.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Mediation_Cabal/Cases/2006-08-07_The_Potter%27s_House – This was a lie to make me look bad.

This guy has been at it longer than me, but never lets me breathe. Just delete, revert, and accuse and I am tired of it! He was trying to get links approved that are written by a guy that claims that I am no longer a Christian, that I am a homosexual, that I am addicted to Net porn, that I hate the Potter's House secretly ect. It was RIDICULOUS! This is wiki bullying. How can I get away from it? I suppose he hopes I will tire and give up. Like look at this deletion review, I have wasted hours and hours just trying to explain myself, and why? Because he want's me to just give up.

Why am I then seen as the bad guy? This guy has a vendetta against me. If Fan-1967 was interested in the situation he would read all the mediation, look at all the talk at the Potter's House and also look at his and my history to see if this is true. Potters house 13:59, 1 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

See: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Tom_Papania&action=history

see: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Gary_Wilkerson&action=history

see: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wade_Watts&action=history

see: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Tom_Papania&action=history

"Firstly, the only person accusing me is you Antaeus Feldspar." Of personal attacks? That's completely incorrect; you have been advised by both Ed here and also Ten of all Trades to apologize for your personal attacks and probably by others, but rather than apologize, you've just continued with the attacks.

"You don't like me because Timan, Ross, Fossa and others have beef with the Potter's House Church." No, I dislike you because I find your actions sleazy and unethical, such as when you started a website devoted to slandering a public figure so that you could use that website as a bargaining chip on Wikipedia. It's not that I don't like you because of Potter's House; it's that that I don't like Potter's House because of you. And even that wouldn't be the case if not for the fact that they are a church and promote themselves as being able to lead Christians in their quest of learning how to act in more godly ways, and then they produce someone like you.

"But to claim that Kev who is 220.233.86.223 is me is misleading, and the type of thing you seem to accuse me of yet I am always the one who has to apologize! I know this guy personally and he was on Wiki way before me. He also goes to the Potter's House and has had major contribs." Yes, I admit my suspicion that 220.233.86.223 was you was incorrect. If I'd checked 220.233.86.223's contributions more carefully I would have realized sooner that he was User:Truth Over Relationship, who in the past caught a block for posting another user's full name, address, phone number and the church that he attends and followed up with threats such as "I will not use your real name here again - however I think you should probably be thinking before bragging next time - I have marked you and will look at other attacks on the internat against church groups and if any come from you after todays date - I will follow through with litigation!" Certainly a fine person to talk about issues of 'stalking', yes.

"Clary has spent the past 8 Months in Australia and is a hit here appearing on major TV, Radio and Newspaper interviews weekly." So produce evidence instead of just assertions. If you'd done that in the first place then the original article might have been kept even despite Clary's own interference and misbehavior.

"So I apologize for assuming that Feldspa could have been acting in a discriminating way when deleting Wade Watts' bio. But is it not the same when he now calls me a liar, deceiver and also earlier stalked me." Ah, so you finally apologize for calling me a racist to thirty different people, but you continue to call me a stalker?

"I have constantly requested mediation but his buddies Timan, Fossa, and others seemed to gang up on me." Pfffft. Fossa is my "buddy" now? Man, if you knew the history there, you'd realize that any time you can get me and Fossa agreeing on anything, it's a rare day.

"Hey I may not have all the Wiki language down, and may not say things right. But Feldspar has been harassing me. How can I make a formal complaint on wiki about him?" See, this is the part that you don't get. Feldspar has been cleaning up after the mistakes you make because you not only don't "have all the Wiki language down", you also don't 'have the rules of decent conduct on Wikipedia down'. And when someone tries to explain those rules to you -- rules such as "when an article has been deleted through the AfD process you can't just create the same article under a different title", "no, it's not okay to create an article titled Wade Watts which has twice as much about Clary as about Watts", "no, just because you personally know the person who put together a slander site doesn't make it a reliable source", "no, hosting the slander site personally doesn't make it reliable either", "if you cannot, even when challenged, demonstrate proof that someone said a particular thing, you are not allowed to keep inserting the false claim that they did say that because you think it's the sort of thing they would say" -- well, what they get from you is not a sincere attempt to learn but rather accusations -- accusations that they are racist, neo-Nazi, stalkers, secret employees of the Rick Ross Institute, whatever comes into your mind except the possibility that they are simply people who know things about Wikipedia policy that you do not and who are trying to teach you.

"As you can see, this whole deletion thing is his idea and now I am wasting huge amounts of time (once again) trying to defend myself for this guy. He trys to get people offside with me but why? Because I am a Christian and he is a cult buster." See above. Nick actually seems to think it's his right to announce lies like "he's a covert racist" and "he's a neo-Nazi" and "he's a John Kerry fanatic" and "he's an anti-Christian".

"He has been vandalizing my articles by following me around Wiki harassing me, refusing mediation and making no compromises whatsoever, not even talking about the issue when I have continually requested it and even deleting the posts I put on his talk page requesting mediation and then saying things like "Hey, Nick! When were you, you know, planning to let me know that you'd opened this case? Hmmmm? Opening a case against another party and not notifying them -- not a real indicator of acting in good faith." when he DELETED the talk I put on his page a few days before so it looked bad for me." Man, I just love people who ask themselves "What Would Jesus Do?" and answer themselves "Why, Jesus would lie like a rug in order to slander someone else, of course!" FACT TIME, NICK: You left a message on my talk page. It was a useless message, since it was an exact duplicate of a message you also left on an article talk page. In fact, if you read my user talk page header, you knew that I would delete a duplicate message. Does this mean that I deleted the message where you told me you were starting a mediation case? No, it does not -- because THAT message, you never left. So, basically, you're trying to lie to the good people here. "Feldspar claims I never told him I was starting proceedings against him! But HE DELETED the message I left for him! -- which didn't tell him I was starting proceedings against him but I want you to ASSUME it did!"

"See the mediation which I had to initiate. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Mediation_Cabal/Cases/2006-08-07_The_Potter%27s_House – This was a lie to make me look bad." No, it is a lie you're telling NOW. Or are you claiming that when you leave a message stating "I would prefer to discuss this without mediation." (emphasis added)[1] that you actually expected me to take that as "Hunh, he must be starting a Mediation Cabal case against me?" Exactly how did you expect me to figure out which title you had chosen for the page, so I could join the discussion that you started without me? Check your contributions -- oh, no, wait, that would be stalking, unless of course it's you who does it.

"This guy has been at it longer than me, but never lets me breathe. Just delete, revert, and accuse and I am tired of it! He was trying to get links approved that are written by a guy that claims that I am no longer a Christian, that I am a homosexual, that I am addicted to Net porn, that I hate the Potter's House secretly ect. It was RIDICULOUS!" Those lies you're telling? Yes, they are ridiculous. What I was trying to do was get you to stop inserting into the articles links to a slander site which accuses someone of being a homosexual based on possible ways he might have but didn't complete the sentence "I have previously ..." So, once again, your arguments really boil down to "he is CLEARLY in the wrong! Because he did things that are completely acceptable when I do them but obviously WRONG if anyone else does them!"

"This is wiki bullying. How can I get away from it? I suppose he hopes I will tire and give up. Like look at this deletion review, I have wasted hours and hours just trying to explain myself, and why? Because he want's me to just give up." No,I want you to shape up and start acting like an actual Christian and not like a spoiled sixth-grader who still hasn't figured out that the world isn't all about him and that he isn't entitled to lie and cheat and slander when the world isn't set up for him to have his way.

"Why am I then seen as the bad guy?" Um, because spreading lies and slander makes you a bad guy?

"This guy has a vendetta against me." Ah, yes, more benefit of Nick's amazing mind-reading abilities. "I can look into his mind and see he has a vendetta against me! It couldn't possibly be because I'm violating the rules! It must be because he's (insert inflammatory baseless accusation here)!"

"If Fan-1967 was interested in the situation he would read all the mediation, look at all the talk at the Potter's House and also look at his and my history to see if this is true. Potters house 13:59, 1 September 2006 (UTC)" Well, gee, for starters, I hope he starts with the message you left on my talk page -- you know, the one you falsely claim notified me of the Mediation Cabal case you started against me? I think that is an excellent place to start for anyone who wants to find out whether your accusations are based on truth.[reply]

"See: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Tom_Papania&action=history" When I found this article,[2] it provided no sources, only external links to tompapania.com . It was not an encyclopedia-style account of the known facts of Papania's life but rather a magazine-feature-style account of Papania's claimed life in the Mafia and subsequent conversion. When I tried to find sources for Papania's claims, what I found is that in fact Papania's account is disputed; writer Rocky Scarfone claims that many of the stories Papania tells as happening to him were actually taken from Scarfone's book House of Cards: The Curse of Alphonso. I revised the article in accordance with WP:NPOV to reflect that these are the claims Papania makes about his life, but they are disupted by others such as Scarfone.[3] As WP:NPOV makes clear, Wikipedia articles should characterize debates, but they should not assert that any of the sides are right or wrong. Nick changed the article so that it did assert Papania's claims to be true,[4] and removed an external link to an article regarding Scarfone and Papania battle over the domain name "tompapania.com", claiming "I deleted the link that you placed as it is old news. Tom Papania now owns the site that was in Question in the article, written in 2001 and therefore was irrelevant. Nick."[5]

"see: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Gary_Wilkerson&action=history" David Wilkerson, whose notability Nick has ironically questioned on many occasions, is undoubtably a notable person as the author of the best-selling The Cross and the Switchblade. No evidence is provided for the notability of Gary Wilkerson,[6] David's son, except the biographical sketch on davidwilkerson.org.

"see: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wade_Watts&action=history" Thanks to the efforts of others, Wade Watts has become an excellent article which really is actually about Wade Watts. When I found the article,[7] it had six sentences, of which two were about Wade Watts and four were about Clary.

"see: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Tom_Papania&action=history" I was simply going to remove this one, since it was listed twice, but then I realized that if I did that, Nick would probably claim that I had removed some other entry altogether. -- Antaeus Feldspar 16:31, 1 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

What I am interested in is why no Americans seem to think Clary is prominent. The people arguing that he's a notable crusader against the KKK are Australians who have never seen a klansman in their lives, except maybe a brief clip on the international news, and all they know about Clary is what Clary has told them. Fan-1967 14:08, 1 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Firstly no Americans seem to think Clary is prominent? See Oprah, Montel, Jerry Springer, Rikki Lake, Phil Donahue, Sally Jessy, Pat Robertson's 700 Club, Billy Graham's Radio show, Geraldo Rivera, Queen Latifah, Carol and Marilyn Real Friends, Montel Williams, A&E Investigative Reports, ABC World News Tonight, Bertrice Berry, Rolanda, The Today Show, A Current Affair, NBC's Donny Deutsch The Big Idea, TBN's Praise The Lord show, many national and international Newspapers and National TV Shows in Australia, England, Holland, Northern Ireland, Scotland, Sweden, and Wales. He has appeared all over the Nation of Australia on ABC Radio as well as ABC's "Enough Rope" hosted by Andrew Denton also appeared with the Australian KKK leader on the Today show in Australia.

Secondly Check out these links www.kkkau.com and www.fightdemback.com Also see clarys site.

Thirdly I suggest we delete this site then: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tilman_Hausherr

This is Feldspar's best friend but who is he? Has he been on Oprah? I will nominate him for deletion for the reason that he is not notale. Potters house 14:22, 1 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Interesting that you direct me to Australian websites, yet the article is devoted to his supposedly notable fight against the klan in the US, where he hasn't even been this year. I have no idea whether he's been on all those shows or not, though it seems awfully hard to verify. Fan-1967 14:33, 1 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Your initial question was why Australian's would know him, so I answered that. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tilman_Hausherr is alot less notable yet he has a page! Potters house 14:57, 1 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

That's generally known as the Pokemon argument and has no value. If you feel Tilman Hausherr should be deleted, feel free to nominate it. Some other article's validity has no relevance to this one. Fan-1967 14:58, 1 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]