Wikipedia talk:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Winhunter
Case clerk: TBD Drafting arbitrator: TBD
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Behaviour on this page: Arbitration case pages exist to assist the Arbitration Committee in arriving at a fair, well-informed decision. You are required to act with appropriate decorum during this case. While grievances must often be aired during a case, you are expected to air them without being rude or hostile, and to respond calmly to allegations against you. Accusations of misbehaviour posted in this case must be proven with clear evidence (and otherwise not made at all). Editors who conduct themselves inappropriately during a case may be sanctioned by an arbitrator, clerk, or functionary, without further warning, by being banned from further participation in the case, or being blocked altogether. Personal attacks against other users, including arbitrators or the clerks, will be met with sanctions. Behavior during a case may also be considered by the committee in arriving at a final decision.
Preliminary statements by uninvolved editors
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Statement by BU Rob13
I see a bad block. I don't see an ADMINACCT violation, even in the slightest. As soon as Winhunter was emailed by Berean Hunter, they returned to explain themselves, making four comments about their action. They stated at the ANI thread that they should have had further conversation with the editor before the block, which is valid, as it presumably would have led to the admin realizing the edits were valid. They also promised to review the relevant policies again to ensure future actions were more in line with expectations. This is an editor who's inactive for long stretches of time, so the inactivity after giving multiple responses to concerns isn't unusual. Has anyone even bothered emailing them again to ask that they return to explain further?
An admin has a responsibility to explain why they took their actions. Winhunter has done this and so satisfies ADMINACCT. An admin also has a duty to stay up-to-date on relevant policies. Winhunter has promised to do this before taking further admin actions. An admin has a duty to avoid a pattern of poor judgement (WP:ADMINCOND), but no such pattern has been shown. There is nothing worth the Committee looking at here. And all this over an admin blocking an LTA who was evading a community ban. If the desire is for stricter activity standards for admins or higher standards for remaining an admin, hold an RfC. I likely would support. The proper venue isn't ArbCom.
The real issue here is an editor who seems to wish to make a point. A blockquote of someone asking the admin to voluntarily step down? Quotes like "and this one is a doozy!" in the case request? Calling an admission that they made a mistake and a promise to review relevant policies "a thinly veiled attempt to hold on to power"? Referring to ArbCom as an "open courtroom"? Transparently claiming a larger agenda to their ArbCom submissions by saying there's "a good reason" for "a pattern in [their] arbcom submission titles"? Creating a sandbox for ArbCom prep with the edit summary "'I'll probably be doing more of these", professing the desire to start more cases even before any problematic behavior occurs. This is drama-seeking behavior and needs to stop. See also the Arthur Rubin request above, which I'm confident you'll find is much ado over nothing as the case proceeds.
extended responses to other statements
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Statement by EEng
Take the case. Winhunter's vague mea culpa – I could have explained the reason of my block a bit better at the time of the block and also see if I could have used a more appropriate warning
– only shows how completely he's failed to grasp the inappropriateness of his actions. What warning? – the one 2 minutes before he blocked? Rubbish. Winhunter has said I am more than happy to let the community to decide my future
, but when the community clearly expressed its wishes, he simply disappeared (again), pretending nothing what happening. As someone said: It's like any volunteer situation—while volunteer help is always welcome, you don't want some guy who only pops in a few times a year to be ordering other volunteers out of the building.
This guy didn't have the experience to be an admin when he became one, and he certainly doesn't have it now. EEng 07:46, 22 August 2017 (UTC)
- Hasteur
: Wikipedia's dispute processes aren't about remedying hurt to editors, but keeping the project running as smoothly as possible, so talk of torts and hurts is misplaced. If we must draw a legal parallel, it should be not to civil law, which concerns itself with hurts to individuals, but to criminal law, which concerns itself with the damage done to society. EEng 20:06, 22 August 2017 (UTC)
extended responses to other statements
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Statement by Hasteur
Endorse BU Rob's comments and suggest that the committee reconsider a previous proposal they had (or one that I dreampt up) that a case request must be from someone who has been subject to a "remediable hurt" much in the same way that United States litigants must demonstrate a tort in order to have legal standing. This will allow the committee to dispose of quickly "Tempest in a Teapot" scenarios that have been brought by schadenfreude seeking faux-parties. Hasteur (talk) 11:51, 22 August 2017 (UTC) Bold text
Statement by Ivanvector
As the admin who later identified and blocked the LTA after Winhunter's block had been reviewed and overturned, and who closed the discussion at ANI (more than once), I wish to correct some errors in the filing statement by presenting a rough timeline of events:
timeline of events by Ivanvector
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There does not seem to have been any interaction between Winhunter and the IP prior to Winhunter's warning; there was no edit war as suggested by the filer, and nothing violating WP:INVOLVED. But please also note the unlikelihood that Winhunter was aware of the long-term abuse case, as this was not suggested by anyone until 12 days after the initial block.
I have no recommendation to the Committee whether to accept or decline this case, but respectfully remind the Committee that there is no community mechanism for review of a user's advanced permissions, and Snow Rise's proposal and its strong endorsement by the community indicate that such a review of Winhunter's adminship is desired.
-- Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 19:17, 22 August 2017 (UTC)
Statement by Tarage
This case, like the other one presented here, is a two-pronged issue. The first relates to both Winhunter's bad block and subsequent refusal to be accountable for any of his actions, but the other is far more important to me. As of now, the only way that the community can act on a rogue administrator in any capacity is to vote to block them. I don't have to explain why this is a horrible thing. The community needs a method to recall administrators who lose the confidence of the community. I don't know how we can reach a point where that is possible, and so far no one has been able to tell me the place where such a plea can be made, but there needs to be something done. Far too many administrators, either through being grandfathered into the system, or through egregious breaches of the community's trust. There HAS to be a way for the community to act on such issues. --Tarage (talk) 20:03, 22 August 2017 (UTC)
- @Hasteur that is nonsense. If you need "remediable hurt", it is the community's faith in Winhunter. --Tarage (talk) 21:58, 22 August 2017 (UTC)
- @Everyone We have an issue here. The person who brought this case forward has been indef blocked. While I still feel there is a valid case here, someone else is going to have to take up the reigns. I don't know how that works. --Tarage (talk) 18:31, 23 August 2017 (UTC)
Statement by Beyond My Ken
- (Edited for length. Former full statement can be found here.)
My concern is not that an admin made a mistake - they're human, and it happens - even a rather egregious one, but that Winhunter specifically left his fate to the community, with the implicit understanding that if there was sufficient support for his turning in the bit, he would do so. (It was implicit, because the community can't on its own desysop an admin, due to the shameful lack of a community desysop procedure, so if the community spoke in favor, Winhunter would have to act accordingly.) Well, there was, in my view, sufficient support for Winhunter turning in the bit, and they did not do so. It is on that basis, the loss of the trust of the community, and not the one error, or any extensive pattern of errors (that I am aware of), that the Committee should take the case. Admins are trusted users, that's the entire point of an RfA: do we trust this person, and the loss of the community's trust due to not following through with their placing their fate in the community's hands, should be the basis for this case. Beyond My Ken (talk) 20:41, 22 August 2017 (UTC)
supplementary statement
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Statement by Swarm
Winhunter committed an abusive action with their administrative permissions, drawing overwhelming outrage and condemnation, as well as a widespread and very strong sentiment from the community that he should be desysopped. In spite of the firestorm of controversy they created, and were well aware of, Winhunter made virtually no sincere attempt at clarifying his good intentions, which were strongly in doubt, and has hid behind disingenuous, vague statements and the thin veil of "inactivity". I urge Committee members to examine the facts within the context of the clear community consensus to desysop. This case is not being brought to ARBCOM hash out the controversy, or to decide who's right, and what should be done about it, as is normally the case. This is being brought because we as a community have already identified an abusive administrator and have decided that they should not retain their privileges. The Committee should verify that this is indeed the community's decision, not whether they agree with it.
Statement by The Rambling Man
Arbcom should take the case. Abuse of admin tools is serious and because the community is utterly impotent to do something about it, it is beholdent on the Arbs to find a way to ensure the community still has confidence in their admins. Or else find a different method of community-based desysop, which now seems necessary. Certain admins commenting here seem keen to keep the kind of transgressions we're seeing quiet, hushing them up to an extent, to allow the empowered to continue on their dodgy path. ADMINACCT has never looked so shaky, and this is just another instance where it needs application. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:57, 22 August 2017 (UTC)
P.S. Some statements above exceed 500 words, could the clerks please do the job of templating the admins who are falling foul of the limitation, level playing field and all that. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:59, 22 August 2017 (UTC)
- Newyorkbrad try again. What was in excess of the regulation 500 words in even more so now. The Rambling Man (talk) 12:26, 24 August 2017 (UTC)
Statement by Davey2010
All admins make mistakes at times none of us are perfect however you don't warn someone and then 1-2 minutes later block them, That aside they've not really taken any responsibility for their actions - They've more or less brushed it off as "concluded" and then buggered off for a few weeks in the hope it'll all die down,
Somewhat off-topic but this editor wouldn't stand a chance at the "new" RFA because they're mostly inactive here and If I'm being absolutely honest one wonders how they became an admin in the first place .....,
Anyway they abused the mop and their answers/replies were insufficient and as such they should be held accountable for their actions. –Davey2010Talk 23:19, 22 August 2017 (UTC)
Statement by Arianewiki1
As one of the initial instigators of the issues between IP and Winhunter here, I feel the main cause of Winhunter's actions against the IP can be summed up here.[5]
- "...your open hostility and combativeness towards other editors is not welcomed and unhelpful, regardless of being right or wrong. Saying things like "Don't be stupid." [6] and "just how stupid are you? it takes virtually no brainpower to distinguish between vandalism and my good edits,..." [7] (then delete it to avoid scrutiny!]. Editors here are all volunteers and should not be subjected to such behaviour, and it avoids the trumping policy of all - WP:GF - good faith."
Whilst the complaint by Winhunter of "vandalism" is plainly wrong, their response was likely due to these insults and confronting behaviour of the IP.
I was also the one who suspected the IP was a sock, simply by the IP's knowledge of edit policy, whose exchange appears on my own talkpage here [8] under "Unexplained reverts."
I also admit I have made mistakes here too, but I was totally unaware of IP and Winhunter interactions prior to this. (especially as the IP had removed these exchanges from their own talkpage) Arianewiki1 (talk) 02:45, 23 August 2017 (UTC)
Statement by Blackmane
This comment isn't entirely case related but more of a FYI. Winhunter statest that they're from Hong Kong which is currently being lashed by Typhoon Hato. So they may be contactable by email as they are likely to be home, like the vast majority of sensible Hong Kongers. --Blackmane (talk) 04:54, 23 August 2017 (UTC)
response not closely related to the case
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Statement by Mendaliv
I am writing to suggest that the Committee accept this case as it is a matter falling within the Committee's exclusive jurisdiction—that is, the revocation of administrative rights—and which, for better or worse, the community has been historically impotent to address in any constructive way. Because sanctions should be both relevant and proportionate, the ability of the community to block or ban administrators, even in a limited fashion, should not be considered appropriate for misuse of the administrative tools. Rather, the preventive remedy of desysopping should be available, and for that we must go to the Committee.
Frankly, because this falls within the Committee's exclusive jurisdiction, this is a matter that should not be subject to any "exhaustion of remedies" requirement that the Committee might impose. Similarly, this case should not be rejected on prudential grounds for the same reason: the community is unable to resolve it in an appropriate, proportionate, and relevant manner. While I will not go so far as to say this falls within the Committee's mandatory jurisdiction, it is a matter that comes close to it. Administrators who misuse the tools are a problem, and long-inactive old guard administrators are particularly prone to misuse of the tools or having their accounts compromised. These policy considerations, which undergird WP:INACTIVITY, appear to be well-integrated into our community's values. This is not a complex case, and it is not one that will be a drain on Committee resources. These factors strongly militate against rejection.
As The Rambling Man states above, the Committee should make use of its jurisdiction or expect to see it stripped by the community. I believe this latter option would be unfortunate, because it would certainly take on the circus-like atmosphere that some attribute to RfA and ANI. Our administrators are, after all, volunteers, and put a lot of heart into their roles. Where they do wrong, they should be given the benefit of process, and not simply punished with ANI's theatrics.
I urge the Committee to take a more proactive role in accepting cases alleging administrator misconduct. Please accept this case. —/Mendaliv/2¢/Δ's/ 07:07, 23 August 2017 (UTC)
long response to Power~enwiki
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Statement by Power~enwiki
I find it implausible that ARBCOM would de-admin a user for blocking a previously-banned user. No other possible action justifies discussing this any further.
As far as the initial edits by Best Known For before the first block (such as [9]), Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Astronomy#CMG_-_.22Catalogue_of_One_Thousand_Named_Galaxies.22 shows a consensus against including this material, but using "removed nonsense" as an edit comment is not good editing behavior.
As far as the merits of Winhunter's original block: it seems to have been in response to this diff: [10]. A short-term block there (considering his hostile responses to two separate warnings) seems like a perfectly reasonable response. Power~enwiki (talk) 03:21, 24 August 2017 (UTC)
Statement by Banedon
I suggest declining. This case really highlights the worst of the Wikipedia community and really should be forgotten. We have an administrator who makes a bad block, acknowledges it's a bad block, and says if the community finds his / her next admin action unsatisfactory, they can decide to desysop. Given that Winhunter is not currently making bad administrative actions and there's no evidence that long-term pattern of bad actions, that's more than enough for me. In fact I'm hard pressed to see what more the community could possibly want.
Proposed solution: do nothing, drop the stick, and if Winhunter makes another bad administrative action + refuses to acknowledge it's a bad action, or makes multiple bad administrative actions with no sign of improvement, then we can have an Arbcom case. Banedon (talk) 05:54, 24 August 2017 (UTC)
- PS: Somewhere, the long-term-abuser is laughing. "Ha! Look at all the disruption I managed to cause, all the way up to an Arbcom case request. All we need now is for someone to involve Jimbo ... Banedon (talk) 06:35, 24 August 2017 (UTC)
Statement by Snow Rise
As the community member who first put forward the proposal to kick to ArbCom the matter of Winhunter's actions and capacities as an admin, my impressions about the meaning of the ensuing conversation are not really any (or at least not much) more relevant than those of any one other contributor who participated in said discussion. Afterall, any one responding party may have misinterpreted what it was I suggesting. Nevertheless, the Arbs may find my perspectives at the time I put the proposal forward to be of some small use.
For the record, I did not make the proposal while aware of any accusation of improper WP:INVOLVEment on Winhunter's part, when they blocked the IP. Nor do I recall any other community members suggesting such involvement, until Twitbookspacetube's filing here. Similarly, I did not mean the discussion to be a platform to make calls to curtail the actions of a (supposed) class of admins run amok. Nor did I intend for the discussion to become a forum to raise the issue of a non-ArbCom-oriented alternative to de-sysopping. In fact, I tried to structure the proposal to avoid such generalized topics and keep the matter focused on Winhunter in particular. I also did not notice hand-wringing about supposedly frequent administrative abuses as a common feature of the responses. To be sure, a handful contributors did take it in that direction. But for most part, respondents approached their comments in a manner consistent with my proposal; that is, by considering a particularly problematic combination of particularly problematic behaviours by Winhunter, in his capacity as an admin. The issues I felt were most emphasized by those who responded to the proposal (and the discussion which preceded it) include:
issues presented
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So, though it should come as no surprise given my proposal, I do urge ArbCom to continue their inquiry, ideally with an open case here, if that is what they also feel is the best approach. I say this in spite of Twitbookspacetube shooting holes in their own filing (and catching their own feet a few times while they were at it). Personally, I join others who have commented here and in the related discussions in asserting that I think most admins conduct themselves to a standard mostly consistent with the community's expectations. As such, I would not have made the community proposal I did, except for the fact that I thought the particular combination of factors in Winhunter's case demanded review by a body at least theoretically capable of de-sysoping, as it did not seem that Winhunter was going to follow through on their offer to turn back their tools any time soon. Snow let's rap 06:10, 24 August 2017 (UTC)
Statement by Wee Curry Monster
I see that the WP:BKFIP is involved here. I've been aware of that editor for at least 8 years and been the subject of their abuse more than once eg Censored, Censored Censored You dopy little Censored, "wee curry monster".
I have observed that this behaviour often has the tendency to invoke editors into behaving uncharacteristically. A good friend of mine who otherwise had a clean block record ended up being blocked for edit warring. Sometimes their edit summaries, combined with their abusive responses can lead to the erroneous presumption of vandalism, which combined with their rapid fire edit warring can trip people up. WP:AGF would tend suggest to me that is precisely what has happened with Winhunter.
As such I would commend to arbcom that they decline this case. WCMemail 16:09, 24 August 2017 (UTC
Statement by Alanscottwalker
As reflected in our policies and practice, there is no ANI process dyssyop that has consensus. So no, this committee should not convene itself as a rubber stamp of ANI, which is after-all a self-selected group, not an elected group. As for other issues, it looks like some will be disappointed that the committee will have a hard-time ignoring, unclean hands, and the un-restrictiveness of our inactivity policy (and recently, we have gotten nowhere on it.[11] And I recall another recent discussion, perhaps at VPP, where there seemed to be strong opposition but I cannot find that, at the moment (I generally supported, tightening, if I recall correctly, in both discussions)). Moreover, according to our vandalism policy, creating and using an account or IP address "abusively", which in the context it is used, means something different than the content of edits themselves, appears to make banned/blocked account's use, alone, vandalism. I can't predict the future, but just advise some above that they might not get what they want, here, and may have to consider living with an unofficial (already delivered) or official instruction to the admin (also, already delivered by the ANI, but could be again by the ctte.) Alanscottwalker (talk) 16:20, 24 August 2017 (UTC)
I did not see that the filer of this case has also been blocked, before I wrote the above. It's a poor case - good luck. - Alanscottwalker (talk) 17:03, 24 August 2017 (UTC)
Statement by Atsme
We all make mistakes but this case goes a step beyond. What we've seen is an admin whose absence demonstrates, to some, a lack of interest which in and of itself is disconcerting. Add to that, an admin who is ?motivated? to take action regarding a particular issue, and we see what appears to be a lack of understanding about our evolving community; the latter of which obviously results from a lack of interest and participation. So why did this admin awaken from dormancy and decide to show up for this particular case? Therein the problem lies for an evolving community that invests its trust and confidence in the people they elect to hold positions of authority. I trust ArbCom to do what is necessary to properly investigate this case, and make a final determination. I don't consider the latter too much to ask. Atsme📞📧 19:04, 30 August 2017 (UTC)