Material posted by rmcnew on evidence page far in excess of 1000 words, copied here for reference[edit]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

Please note that the discussions below and the comments by other users were copied from elsewhere by Rmcnew, and did not take place on the case pages. Rmcnew, if you want to present some of what is below as evidence, please make clear where you have copied comments from, and keep to the 1000-word limit. Carcharoth (talk) 00:03, 12 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Assertions that Rmcnew has been seeking credible sources[edit]

I have been seeking credible sources for socionics theory. I admit that the majority of comparisons between socionics and hermeticism could correctly be labeled origional research, on part because there are no credible admissions that can be sourced for inclusion into the article. Therefore, I have ceased to include in the article any non-socionic related sources to that effect. Nevertheless, methods that have extreem similarity to hermetic and new age philosophy, includeing references to chakras and hinduism do exists in socionics theory and can be sourced credibly. Therefore, sources have been sourced quoteing this within the article.

I disagree fundamentally with those who claim that socionics has no esoteric connections, and that I believe that socionics from a general foundation is in fact related to outdated protoscientific techniques (once considered scientific, now can be considered pseudoscientific) that were derived from 100s of years old hermetic science.

Examples of this include:

similarity of the socionic information elements to tattwas.
That the information elements have (according to dmitri lytov) been considered to be associated to the central nervous system officially by ausura augusta.
That chakras have been considered part of the central nervous system by hermeticism, hinduism, and new age philosophies.
That tattwas have been considered part of the central nervous system by hermeticism, hinduism, and new age philosophies.
That tattwas are linked to chakras by hermeticism, hinduism, and new age philosophies.
That the information elements have been linked to chakras by socionic theorists
That socionists have adapted chakras and bioenergy to socionics theory, and are using socionics in a way that could be considered mystical or as an alternative medicine.

However, this is my personal stance. I have ceased to indicate this in the article other than what can be credibly sourced from legitimate and official socionics publications.

Assertion that Tcaud makes unnecessary personal attacks[edit]

Tcaudilllig has no other arguments than to slander my persons, as of late this has involved quoteing distorted versions of past events. This included libelous statements that I am a "cult leader" who proclaims himself to be "God" and wants to "start his own religion". I have a good faith belief that Tcaud legitimate believes these libelous and false accusations are true and therefore this provides his sole reasoning for making unnecessary reverts, usually followed by further ad hominem attacks and slander. He has thus made numerous unnecessary reversions to the article with reasons that are purely ad hominem in nature to this effect. He avoids finding and quoteing credible sources when challenged (or in general).

He has also attempted to underhandedly undermine the credibility of PHD related sources by making ad hominem attacks people with PHDs. A good example of this is here. The following is from Rick Delong's user talk page:

Tcaudillig's remarks and intent to hide credibility of appropiate source information through slander and ad hominem[edit]

Do you think he can be persuaded to retroactively remove the esoterism articles from the institute journal's record? Tcaudilllg (talk) 15:18, 29 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think it's important. Those are speculative articles that are not cited by other works (see my sources on the Socionics:Talk page). Nobody cares about them, and they are not foundational for socionics. --Rick DeLong (talk) 19:54, 29 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

You know, you could reinstate me on Wikisocion. I won't touch the main article pages; I just need to rearrange my own article namespace. If you like, just reinstate my ability to edit my own pages. Also the link to the progressive socionics forums needs updating. The new address is www.progressivesocionics.co.cc. Tcaudilllg (talk) 16:56, 30 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

How about this: seeing that that woman with a PhD. is trying to start her own insanity movement at socionic's expense, wouldn't it make sense for the Institute to put out an opinion on the "esoteric foundations" question? I'll write more about this in an message to your site. Tcaudilllg (talk) 00:18, 1 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Assertion that Rick Delong has been a fair representative in most circumstances[edit]

I respect Rick Delong. Unlike Tcaud he has been a fair representative. However, I disagree with him fundamentally over the nature of socionics and I believe that most of his assertion is simply apologetic in nature. I would like to state that thus far encounters with him have been workable. I agree with his recent edits on the article, which I believe promoted neutrality. Below are some questions I asked him concerning his stance and my stance (or what he believes my stance to be).

Answers by Rick Delong (from a few questions I asked him)[edit]

rmcnew's response to rick delongs final opinion[edit]

A couple of questions here. I see that Rick delong has made a number of (what sounds like inaccurate) assumptions concerning what he believes my specific position to be that I think should be addressed. And for that I have a couple of questions. - These questions are for Rick Delong only.

Rick Dulong makes the statement "I believe I have sufficiently discredited McNew's hypotheses" -

What exactly is "my hypothesis"?

I said "hypotheses," not "hypothesis." 1) The socionic symbols were taken from the Tattwas, 2) hermeticism served as a foundation for socionics theory.

Rick Dulong also states "I recommend deleting all mention of esoteric and mystic sources for socionics from the Wikipedia article, as these have no solid foundation"

What exactly are you considering to have "no solid foundation?" and why do quote "all" of the mystic and esoteric sources deserve deletion?

I said, "all mention of esoteric and mystic sources for socionics". That means, that the socionics article should not suggest that esoteric and mystic ideas were a source for socionics theory. This is because no such sources have been demonstrated to exist.

Rick Delong also states that: In refutation of "Rick Dulong attempts to disassociate the tattwas from the socionics functions by claiming that the shapes are universal symbols, which is true," this is deceptive wording that suggests that the association is proven or known, and that I am trying to hide the association. In fact, I am simply maintaining the null hypothesis -- that there is no practical connection. The burden of proof is on the hypothesis, not the null hypothesis.

How exactly is there "no practical connection"? and how does that effect what you seem to believe my " hypothesis" is?

The socionics symbols were almost certainly not modeled after the tattwas. To suggest so would be original research, and the evidence put forth is simply nonexistent: "look at the socionic symbols. Three of them look like Tattwas."

Rick Delong also says: McNew has provided numerous sources, but his sources do not say the same thing that he is saying.

What exactly is it that you are presumeing that I am saying and how is that conflicting with the sources?

See the two hypotheses I wrote above. None of the socionics articles you have mentioned support either of your hypotheses.

Rick Delong makes one final statement: "They do not support the hypothesis that mystic or esoteric ideas have contributed practically to the development of socionics theory."

How have these not contributed practically to the development of socionics theory?

Because they are not part of the generally accepted body of socionics theory. There is no evidence of esoteric sources for the development of classical socionics, i.e. what is outlined in detail at the Russian wikipedia article and serves as the common foundation for all, or nearly all, socionists.

A few last questions for Rick Delong:

' If esoteric ideas have no practical application to socionics theory, than how come the below statement is on the socionics.ru website?

I didn't say that. I said that esoteric ideas did not contribute to the development of classical socionics.

Why would a socionics scientific research institute want to post anything about chakras and hinduism on its official socionics website?

First of all, what sort of research institute is this? It is a small group of people who think about and apply socionics in various ways. They have no building or assets and are not part of the nation's academic structure.

Takeing the emphasis that this institute is for scientific research, would not allowing a comparison of socionics to chakras and hinduism conflict with the western understanding of science?

What is "scientific" about making comparisons? Anyone can do that. The institute's purpose is actually not to perform empirical scientific research, but rather to provide an "official sounding" organizational backing for a certain group of socionists.

Would that therefore mean that as an official socionics scientific research institute, by allowing these comparisons they are bringing socionics away from the methods of western science and closer protoscientific and alternative medicine fields?

This suggestion of yours, finally, is absolutely correct.

Why would this institute keep calling itself a "scientific research" institute?

To make itself sound more important than it really is. This is a widely used technique. For example, the authors of this book originally positioned themselves as the "socionics institute" even though no one in the Russian socionics community had even heard of them. However, Prokofieva enjoys a much higher reputation in the socionics community, as can be seen through citations of her work in other papers on socionics within the community.

Would they consider any potential scientific advancements in the study and comparison of these religious beliefs?

The word "Nauchnyy" in Russian is not exactly "scientific," but closer to "research" (as an adjective). All the members of the institute are doing is making intellectual investigations into socionics and other fields and writing about connections they have noticed. That is no different in essence than anything anyone else does.

Why is it that the author is emphasizing health in this instance as it compares to physical sickness?

"health" is a broader concept than "physical sickness."

The below statement is on the official website for the "Socionics Scientific Research Instutite". And I am going to bold the word scientific in that. It should be noted that Rick Delong's statement conflicts with the position of the below article, which compares socionics to hinduism. The author seems to believe that studying these hindu religious beliefs and connected esotericism, as they compare to the "young science of socionics" can lead to practical understandings in the prevention of disease and the creation of good health.

As I've said, just because some people call their organization a "scientific research institute" (or "research institute," as would be a more professional translation, as noted above) doesn't mean that their research is actually scientific.

Furthermore, as the issue at hand is 'whether esoteric sources contributed significantly to the development of socionics theory,' comparisons of socionics to hinduism by prominent socionics authors do not constitute a significant theoretical contribution to classical, widely accepted socionics.

Now, why would that be?

Source: http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=ru&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.socionics.ru%2Fchakry.htm

Effect of Energy flows on health and the evolution of human consciousness
Research and technocratic revolution of the twentieth century has opened up new ways of obtaining information, provided an opportunity to exchange news with the world. , , , – .First you get a phone, then radio, television, and today - the Internet. The man opened the door to a new unknown world.And so it falls upon already strong information flow of the latest news, discoveries and achievements. But also the new gossip, political intrigue, the notorious "soap opera" in a television series, detectives, etc. Taking all the information without parsing the whole, people no longer control its flow. Consciousness can not cope with any volume or speed of its revenues, and the psyche can not stand. In such a situation man becomes a puppet: information flows occupy his mind and actively affect the mental state. This was one of the reasons for rapid growth over the last century the number of mental illnesses.
In seeking a solution to this problem there are many different scientific concepts, schools of philosophy, psychological training. Study of the impact of information on the human psyche deals and Socionics, and neurolinguistic programming, and Dianetics, etc. .. etc.
But the problem is not new. More than two thousand years ago the ancient philosophers of India decide this issue by studying the structure of meditative man, his thin shells. Thus were discovered and investigated energy information centers, or chakras. From the teachings of the chakras, the impact of them on a conscious, psycho-emotional life and human health and the connection of this theory with socionics introduces this article.

According to TN Prokofiev, the subject of Socionics is a "study of the processes of information exchange rights with the world and their impact on the psyche." It is therefore important Socionics, having studied the energy-centers, to draw parallels between these ancient teachings and the young science socionics. Moreover, the study of this topic to determine the correspondence between the features and functions socionic awakened centers. In the future, this matter will give a new clue to the study of psychological, socionic and health problems of man, will open a new approach to study the causes of diseases.

The quoted text clearly shows that author Olga Krylova has a serious interest in nonacademic fields such as chakras and tries to relate them to socionics. It does not at all demonstrate that esoteric and mystic ideas/systems lay at the foundations of socionics theory. It might be possible to demonstrate that a significant number of socionists write about nonacademic fields such as ____ (fill in the blank), however, this does not mean that socionics came from these esoterics and mysticism, as these are nowhere mentioned as primary sources for the development of socionics theory. Everywhere, the following sources are identified: Jung and Kempinsky. To suggest that esoterism was a prominent source of socionics would constitute original research, since there are no known Russian language sources that corroborate this claim. To make this clearer, if a sub-group of evolutionary scientists believe in intelligent design, that does not mean that religious ideas lay at the foundation of the theory of evolution. This, as it appears to me, is exactly the kind of point McNew is trying to push. --Rick DeLong (talk) 15:32, 2 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Rick Delong's withdrawal from socionics mediation[edit]

I am hereby resigning from the rest of the socionics mediation debate due to lack of time and interest. I believe my continued involvement would take many hours of my time because of fundamental disagreements between me and other participants. Furthermore, they are highly motivated to promote a certain viewpoint of socionics that is nonrepresentative of the field as a whole, whereas I am weakly motivated to present it accurately. The effort required of me to counter McNew's excessive focus on the esoteric hobbies of Russian socionists is simply not worth it to me. I have stated my opinions and stand by all my existing statements, but I do not wish to continue with the debate. McNew, I suppose, will get his way, and introduce clarity in the socionics article (I'm being sarcastic) with a fair discussion of the esoteric basis of socionics, such as the Wikisocion article he has written about the Esoteric Foundation of Socionics. --Rick DeLong (talk) 21:13, 2 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

DeLong's opinion (pasted from elsewhere where it was out of place)[edit]

Regarding McNew's proposed solution, I strongly disagree with it. To fairly represent socionics in the article and specifically include mention of connections made by socionists to religion, mysticism, and esoterism, one would also need to include mention of all other subject matters discussed by socionics authors in writing. For instance, socionics and cybernetics, socionics and schizophrenia, socionics and alcoholism, socionics and world domination, socionics and the American Ethos, socionics and the Orange Revolution, socionics and the zodiac, socionics and music, socionics and differential functional states, socionics and cultural evolution, socionics and product development, socionics and marketing, socionics and organizational behavior, socionics and management, socionics and world philosophy, socionics and architecture, socionics and animal personality, etc. -- just to name a few. Isolating "socionics and mysticism" without mentioning these other 'applications' of the field would constitute an unbalanced representation of the field. --Rick DeLong (talk) 16:17, 2 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Disagreement with Rick Delong[edit]

I disagree with Rick Delongs assertion above for the fact that socionics socionics in its core has similarities to hermeticism and has been adapted into something similar to a new age healing technique, therefore meaning that all of these things would be at the center of both hermeticism and also socionics, as socionics being a hermetic decendant, as the new age movement is also a hermetic decendant. Nevertheless, not all socionists agree that socionics is a hermetic decendent nor are there any credible admissions to that fact, despite the similarities and new ageism found in socionics theory. --Rmcnew (talk) 14:52, 6 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Assertion that MichalEXE has been a fair representative in most circumstances[edit]

MichalEXE has been a fair representative and has done his best to look at all sides evenly. I appreciate his efforts in this regards.

Further evidences presented by Rmcnew[edit]

Statement that socionics has an intense similarity to hermeticism, new age philosophies, and alternative healing[edit]

Response to -Rick DeLong- withdrawal from socionics mediation[edit]

It should be duely noted that I do indeed personally object to and reject the hypothesis that socionics has no esoteric ties, and I believe that proponents who take the stance that there is no esoteric or protoscientific foundation are simply functioning as apologists for the theory. I do indeed personally believe, as there is evidence to the case, that socionics is related to hermetic doctrine in technique and purpose. I do admit that within the socionics organization it would be difficult to impossible to find any sort of admission to this fact from a reliable socionics sources, however. So, the view itself may not be notable enough for wikipedia for that very reason.

As far as wikipedia is concerned I am resigned to represent a neutral view on the matter. I would be content with there being neutral admission to the esoteric tendencies in socionics theory, but on a person note I disagree highly with those who fight against the evidences that socionics has a relation to hermeticism. If socionics is not itself an offshoot to hermeticism, it cetainly has alot of noticable similarities to hermeticism in its methodology. However, I do resign that any efforts to relay this could only be considered origional research on wikipedia and therefore may not be notable enough to mention in the article, excepting discussion on the talk page.

However, I should note that the tendencies that could be stated from reliable sources (according to wikipedia's standards) which do indeed correspond to hermeticism and current new age theories would be notable enough, in my opinion, to mention. Though, maybe with little to no mention that these things correspond heavily to new age or hermeticism unless that was also mentioned in the source article.

While comparisons to socionics and hermeticism by myself exists, I don't think that other editors should confuse my own personal comparisons to legitimate practices in socionics theory that correspond to hermeticism and therefore state that these practices are non-notable, because these practices do exist and are notable. Hermetic links are non-notable. Actual practices which are exactly like hermeticism, new age theories, and alternative medicine are likewise notable, regardless of similarities. --Rmcnew (talk) 16:40, 5 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Continued similarity between socionics and new age alternative healing techniques (with source)[edit]

Just to show that there are similarities I submit the following, while not necessarily a reliable enough source to quote in the article, it does indeed show that socionics exists and has been adapted into an alternative medicine with the usage of chakras and bio-energy, which comes from the new age and hermetic movements.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Socionics#socionists_have_turned_socionics_into_a_therapy_akin_to_the_alternative_medicine_technique_of_vibrational_medicine

This is correct: "scientifically the socionics school in Kiev, Ukraine headed by Alexander Bukalov wouldn't be any more credible than the one headed by Tatyana Prokofieva in Moscow Russia." Note: "scientifically credible." But as I understand it, the issue is not who is producing more scientifically useful research (um, neither?), but which statements can be considered representative of the field of socionics as a whole. To cite Olga Krylova's hypothesis on the relation of socionic functions to chakras, or even to suggest that "socionists believe that the functions correspond to chakras" would be incorrect, as these views are not representative of the socionics community. --Rick DeLong (talk) 16:08, 2 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I disagree with what Rick Delong says above and beliefs in chakras and bio-energy are representative of the socionics community, just not necessarily among the whole of the community. Here is a website that is sponsoring a socionics workshop where the chakras and bio-energy are being discussed in relation to socionics theory, and are emphasized as something that creates good health. http://ru.laser.ru/authors/kudr/index.html --Rmcnew (talk) 16:36, 2 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Below is a translation of http://ru.laser.ru/authors/kudr/index.html

Introduction course
The original training course Socionics, which we propose is aimed, above all, the fact that each of the students better understand themselves, saw their abilities and talents, was able to sort out their own problems. Mastery of this knowledge will help a person not to be blind in his life relatively themselves and others, knowingly make important life choices. Very specific recommendations on how to adjust the relations within the family and at work, with close and distant. The core rate - skills testing (type definition) people. The proposed method of testing is based on the art of listening to his interlocutor, and hence on the art of talk is tested on subjects of interest to him. This is akin to the art of journalistic interview. Then, the semantics of speech, we do meaningful for us to conclusions. Learning to understand the semantics of the individual (after all, the meaning given to words, everyone has his own) - is a task comparable to the task of learning a language. First, we teach the alphabet (in Socionics is a mental functions). Then study the individual model of the psyche of each of 16 types. Once this is done, we can determine psychotype rights. You will receive a full range of skills in this procedure. Practice course provides specially selected videos, printed teaching materials, games and exercises testing employed members of the group on request. The practice takes more than 3 / 4 of the course. The final part of the course (for those who have already mastered the language of Socionics) is devoted to the relationship and ways of their correction. The course provides new, but already widely proven methodology for determining the types of copyright and intertype relationships with knowledge on bio-energy (the chakras and bio). An experienced specialist will offer self-correction techniques biofield and meditation to improve your self-esteem, that really helps blend in any team and to establish family relationships. Classes are held in intensive mode - 5 hours 1 times a week on Sundays. Cozy room, tea, chamber environment (groups 5-8 persons), individual approach. Studying in a group you feel that Socionics - is not only interesting and practically useful knowledge, but also a profound personal experience, clarify your unique world view. And on this basis can a real personal growth.

This shows that socionics has been adapted as an alternative medicine and is being used as something similar to vibrational medicine. This is also similar to some energy healing methods, such as reiki.

Reliable and unreliable sources that make claims to esoteric nature[edit]

Dmitri Lytov - "So, Augusta created a framework of socionics. But it needed a reform. The necessity of a reform became obvious in the last years of perestroika (1989 – 1991). Although official psychology was still under strong influence of the official ideology, more and more Western psychological books came to Russia, were translated and published. In the beginning, there were only few authors – Eric Berne, Sigmund Freud, Erich Fromm, Carl Jaspers. But from now on socionics had to compete with other trends in psychology, because Soviet (and later post-Soviet) psychology became pluralistic. Two researchers from Kiev, Victor Gulenko and Alexander Bukalov, reformed socionics: they defined its subject and methodology, and created its terminology, which is used until now. Due to their activity, Kiev (Ukraine) became an “informal capital” of the socionics." http://www.psihologia.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1503&sid=f39af7defe85e5b10864a55b2aac7381 --Rmcnew (talk) 22:53, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

Dmitri Lytov - “Informational approach” (Alexander Bukalov, Olga Karpenko, Vladimir Ermak and others, and on the other hand - the alleged “Antisocionics” of Shiyan). Its adherents refer to socionics types as “types of information metabolism.” Moreover, they consider this concept not only applicable to the human psyche, but – in a more global sense – to “information” in general. It is significant that these ideas are extremely similar to some eccentric views, but also to synergetics (the theory of self-organizing systems), having recently sprouted from the depths of cybernetics. Unfortunately, very little is known scientifically about the relation of socionics with synergetics and, in a broader sense, with cybernetics. There is also the matter that the Kiev international institute of socionics is highly sympathetic to a number of esoteric approaches, rejected by the scientific world. http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin/articles/24685-information-metabolism-dmitri-lytov.html --Rmcnew (talk) 22:58, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

Rick Delong - After Aleksandr Bukalov established the International Institute of Socionics in Kiev, Ukraine, some rivalry or differences of opinion arose between Augusta and the group in Kiev, or perhaps with Bukalov himself. Augusta came to the conferences for several years, then stopped coming as her health worsened. Perhaps she felt marginalized by the socionics community. In fact, two volumes of her works were published without her approval by someone else, and she apparently did not receive any royalties from book sales. Now a pensioner, Augusta lived a very poor life like almost all elderly people in the former Soviet Union after its collapse. Emissaries from Kiev and Moscow schools of socionics would collect donations and bring them to her in person to help her subsist. In her final years Augusta became involved in mysticism, which drew criticism from many socionists. - http://wikisocion.org/en/index.php?title=Aushra_Augusta

I.P. Mameneva - Analytical Psychology Kameneva I.P. Psychical Energy: Symbols and Metamorphoses - C.G.Jung's ideas on psychical energy are considered in the context of his psychoanalytical experience set forth in his work Libido, Its Metamorphoses and Symbols. Symbols of psychical energy indicate the direction of its movement from the mother to other objects and images, which in general reminds dynamics of Kundalini energy in Tantra Yoga. In A.Augustinavichiute's model the scheme of informational metabolism of each type determines specifics of its energetic potential and in separate cases also aptitude towards certain esoteric practices. Key words: symbols, consciousness, unconscious, archetypes, psychical energy (libido), system of Chakras, psychical functions, informational metabolism, energetic metabolism, mental loop, vital loop, socionics. http://www.socionics.ibc.com.ua/ejpsy/psy_0612.html

Rick Delong - Aushra Augusta, the founder of socionics, was an ILE, and this has been decisive for the field's development. Augusta discovered a logical system and formulated its key principles, but left much work undone. After her main period of work on socionics, she drifted into esoterism, and I know nothing about her post-socionics development - only that it is outside the realm of contemporary socionics. For most ILEs, the search is never over. - http://socionist.blogspot.com/2007/03/typing-religions-teachings-and_3955.html

Rick Delong - Augusta was the kind of person who broadcasted her insights far and wide, and I think she would have run around saying, "look, these ancient texts are saying the same thing I've been saying!" She was not shy at all about discussing possible connections between socionics and chakras, though her ideas were purely speculative. - http://socionist.blogspot.com/2009/03/development-of-english-language.html --Rmcnew (talk) 18:38, 14 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Dmitri Lytov - In 1980—1995 socionics existed as a "club of adherents" outside the official psychology. Groups of socionists appeared in different cities of the Soviet Union, but this was not enough to make socionics recognized by official psychologists. On the one hand, such isolation from psychologists positively influenced socionics: it developed without Marxist-Leninist stereotypes that overloaded Soviet psychological works of that time. On the other hand, such isolation created an illusion among many socionists that socionics were not a part of psychology, it rather were “a new science” with its own methods, subject etc. This was a dangerous trend: there was a real danger that socionics would turn into something esoteric, mystical. http://www.socioniko.net/en/articles/lytovs-intro2.html

Olga Tangemann - The associative model of a human psyche is based on the model of the informational metabolism and psychoanalytic concepts, in which components of personality, socionic functions and colors of the chakras are considered as a dialectic interaction and expression of psychic energy. A human psyche seeks the harmony and balance between the mind and soul, between the physical and psychic components of personality. Traditional socionics study informational metabolism of a person and does not pay enough attention to the dynamic processes within the psyche and without those the informational metabolism could not be fully understood and explained. The Butterfly model (the associative model) of a human psyche is aimed partly to fill the gap in our understanding of a human psyche from the perspective of psychodynamics as well as to proclaim the indissoluble unity of the information and energy processes within the psyche from the perspective of psychology, socionics, philosophy and esoterics. http://www.socionics.ibc.com.ua/ejpsy/psy_09_1.html

Dmitri Lytov -(За соционику без ошибок, translation: For the Socionics without errors), Lytov says: [translation] "I think sooner or later, we are forced to answer the question of how socionic types correlated with central nervous system." - which implies that the Socionics is generally considered to be associated with the central nervous system, but that at this stage (or at least at the time of the article in 2001), Socionics remains a theory about information processing, which does not go into how. I think this is significant because it shows that although the exact correlation between the types and aspects of the central nervous system have not yet been established, the Socionics elements have always been considered to be processes carried out by the central nervous system. - http://socionics.org/theory/Default.aspx?load=lytov_mistakes.html

Alexander Bukalov -Physics of Consciousness Boukalov A.V. Conscience and the Universe - It is shown that the universal vacuum if viewed as a conglomerate of relativist fields may be described as a giant computing system that controls movement of micro-particles and macro-bodies (planets, stars, etc.) Alike physical processes run in semiconductor crystals of modern computers used for construction of artificial intelligence systems. As an analogue of macro-computer, the Universe in total inevitably possesses attributes of consciousness and intelligence, and its particular subsystems interact with human consciousness and find their interpretation within the framework of religious systems and beliefs. Key words: consciousness, physical vacuum, computer, computations, religion. --Rmcnew (talk) 01:32, 31 July 2009 (UTC) http://www.socionics.ibc.com.ua/ejpsy/psy_0412.html#top http://www.socionics.ibc.com.ua/ejpsy/psy_0412.html#top

Rick Delong - Most socionists would agree that socionics is not a hard science like physics or chemistry, since it has no purely quantitative formulation. Its methodology is more on par with the social or soft sciences like sociology and psychology. At the same time it makes rather specific predictions unlike, for example, Freudian psychology. It therefore occupies an intermediate zone known as protoscience. http://wikisocion.org/en/index.php?title=Socionics_as_science

Reliable sources from socionic schools that claims similarities and comparisons between chakras and hinduism[edit]

(Edited Translated) According to [Tatyana Prokofieva], the subject of Socionics is a 'study of the processes of information exchange rights with the world and their impact on the psyche'. It is therefore important Socionics, having studied the energy-centers (chakras), to draw parallels between these ancient teachings (protoscientific and esoteric philosophies) and the young science socionics. Moreover, the study of this topic to determine the correspondence between the [socionic functions (IM)] features and awakened centers (chakras). In the future, this matter will give a new clue to the study of psychological, socionic and health problems of man, will open a new approach to study the causes of diseases http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=ru&u=http://www.socionics.ru/chakry.htm&ei=8YmySrNcksQ2v9aVzQs&sa=X&oi=translate&resnum=4&ct=result&prev=/search%3Fq%3D%25D0%25A7%25D0%25B0%25D0%25BA%25D1%2580%25D0%25B0%2B%25D1%2581%25D0%25BE%25D1%2586%25D0%25B8%25D0%25BE%25D0%25BD%25D0%25B8%25D0%25BA%25D0%25B0%2Bsocionics.ru%26hl%3Den

17th century hermeticism, with a revival in the 1950s onward[edit]

The conception of society as a system that could be modelled and controlled through information processing and feedback loops fascinated not only the cybernetics researchers but also architects, planners and designers of the time. The simple and hermetic systems of first-order cybernetics, working mainly with engineering and mathematical models, gave way to second-order cybernetics which dealt with 'open systems', or the interdependence of systems, be they social, natural or technical, including factors such as complexity and risk. Cybernetics also expanded into the late 1960s cultural moment of discontent, paranoia and movements for change, offering an epistemology that spread from the control-oriented planning of the government and the military into sectors as various as business, art and counter-cultural politics and technology. Source: http://www.janvaneyck.nl/0_2_3_events_info/arc_08_systems_exposed.html Hermetic books, ancient metaphysical works dealing essentially with the idea of the complete community of all beings and objects. Authorship of the books was attributed to the Egyptian god of wisdom, Thoth, whose name was sometimes translated into Greek as Hermes Trismegistus [Thoth the thrice great] and was therefore equated with the Greek god Hermes. The books treat of a variety of subjects, including magic, astrology, and alchemy, and were particularly influential in the 3d cent. with the Neoplatonists and in France and England in the 17th century. Source: http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/society/A0823498.html Hermeticism is a historiographical phrase describing the work that attempts to reconstruct the mode of thought held by 17th century scientists. It primarily traces out the connections of Renaissance (16th century) modes of thought with those of the Scientific Revolution (17th century). This type of analysis began with English historians of science in the 1960s. This category of history of science work has largely subsumed earlier academic philosophers' work on the problem of transition from Aristotelianism to 17th century science. Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermetic_science

Socionics.ru statement that the intertype relationships are compared to Dmitri Mendeleev Periodic table of the elements - connection to the theory of Synergetics and Hermeticism (counter-argument to Rick Delong's refutations)[edit]

In response to "Refutations of Rick Delong" (included at the bottom) A detailed description of the periodic table is found here It says this on socionics.ru -----

Aushra Augustinavichuite’s student V. Lyashkyavichus has worked out a table of intertype relationships, that is, relationships between personality types. This table is often and rightfully compared to Mendeleev’s table in chemistry. As Mendeleev’s table has made of description chemistry a science with exact rules and criteria, introduction of the intertype relationships table has brought objective criteria into the science of interpersonal relationships.

Source: http://en.socionics.ru/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=249&Itemid=109 It says this on www.ipst.umd.edu ---- Section 21.1 The search for regularity in the list of elements

O. Theodore Benfey, "Precursors and cocursors of the Mendeleev table: The Pythagorean spirit in element classification," Bulletin for the History of Chemistry, nos. 13-14, pages 60-66 (Winter/Spring 1992-1993)

Source: http://www.ipst.umd.edu/Faculty/brush/physicsbibliography.htm It says this on www.unm.edu ----

While step 2 requires some degree of chemical knowledge or experience, it does compress the amount of knowledge needed to treat a large variety of analogous compounds. There are 50 representative elements, which can combine in 2,500 possible ways to form binary molecules. However, there are only eight families of representative elements. Thus knowledge of the properties of only 8 representative binary molecules allows one to predict the properties of the remaining (42-8)x(42-8) = 1,156 possible pairs. The advantage increases with the number of atoms in the molecules ((42 - 8)n vs 8n, for n = 2, 3, etc. atoms).

Source: http://www.unm.edu/~dmclaugh/PrinciplesPDF/8_Periodicity.pdf It says this on deoxy.org ----

In the 1860s, English chemist John Newland showed that all the chemical elements fall into eight families. Since Pythagorean mysticism was unfashionable at that time, Newland was literally laughed at and rejected by the Royal Chemical Society. In the 1870s, with much more detail than Newland, the Russian chemist Mendeleyev proved once and for all that the elements do, indeed, fall into eight families. His Periodic Table of the Elements, an octave of hauntingly Pythagorean harmony, hangs in every high-school chemistry class today. (The Royal Society later apologized to Newland and gave him a Gold Medal.)

Source: http://deoxy.org/eoctave.htm It says this on honolulu.hawaii.edu

4.3.1.7. are these just Pythagorean coincidences, or do they mean something?

Source: http://honolulu.hawaii.edu/distance/sci122/Programs/p29/p29.html Click Dmitri Mendeleev for the wikipedia page. --Rmcnew (talk) 14:57, 30 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Socionics - Buckminster Fuller, Hermann Haken, Periodic Table and Synergetics[edit]

It says this on deoxy.org ----

R. Buckminster Fuller, in his Synergetic-Energetic Geometry, which he claims is the "co-ordinate system of the Universe," reduces all phenomena to geometric-energetic constructs based on the tetrahedron (4-sided), the octet truss (8-sided) and the coupler (8-faceted with 24 phases). Fuller argues specifically that the 8-face, 24-phase coupler underlies the 8-fold division of the chemical elements on the Mendeleyev Periodic Table.

Source: http://deoxy.org/eoctave.htm --Rmcnew (talk) 15:38, 30 September 2009 (UTC) It says this on zanngill.com ----[reply]

I call this third option synergetic evolution, recalling Buckminster Fuller’s emphasis on synergy (wholes greater than the sum of their parts). Physicist Hermann Haken explored synergetics as the dynamic of self-organizing complex systems.

Source: http://zanngill.com/2dd.html

Periodic Table of the Elements as it relates to the Synergetic Theory of Hermann Haken[edit]

It says this on complexsystems.org ----

HERMAN HAKEN The work of the physicist Herman Haken and various colleagues over the past 20 years in the science of "synergetics" should also be mentioned (1973, 1977, 1983, 1988). Synergetics is defined as the science of co-operation, and Haken pioneered the scientific analysis of hierarchically organized co-operative phenomena in physics, with applications also in biology and the social sciences. He was one of the early workers also in chaos theory and self-organization and was one of the first to recognize cooperative self-ordering in various kinds of dynamical systems. A contribution of particular importance was a recognition that complex dynamical systems are Janusfaced. In some circumstances, the introduction of small changes can enhance the stability of the system or cause no significant disturbance. Yet, in other circumstances, a small change can completely destabilize the system -- a phenomenon subsequently developed by other workers and given the name of "self-organized criticality" (Bak and Chen, 1991). Haken also pioneered in the study of hierarchical control in dynamical systems. In particular, he identified two very different kinds. One involves distributed, mutual control among system parts in order to maintain a stable collective state (homeostasis). The other involves the introduction of superordinate "order parameters."

Source: http://www.complexsystems.org/publications/pdf/synselforg.pdf

It says this on complexsystems.org ----

Synergy is clearly not a peripheral phenomenon associated only with drug interactions or corporate mergers. Though it often travels in disguise, synergy can be found in the subject-matter of most, if not all of the academic disciplines. In physics, it is associated with the behavior of atoms and subatomic particles, as well as with superconductivity, synchronous light emissions (lasers) and such esoteric molecular phenomena as scale effects -- the "broken symmetries" highlighted in physicist Perry Anderson's classic article "More is Different" (1972). Indeed, the periodic table of elements is a monument to the many forms of synergy that are responsible both for the naturally occurring stable elements and for the more unstable or even transitory creations of modern physics; various combinations of atomic building-blocks produce substances with very different emergent properties. Even the chaotic phenomena which have been the subject of intensive research by physicists and mathematicians in recent years exhibit many forms of synergy.

Source: http://www.complexsystems.org/publications/pdf/synselforg.pdf

Alexander Bukalov and Synergetics connection[edit]

It says this on socionics.ibc.com.ua ----

A.V.Bukalov Quantum Changes of Informational Medium The notion is suggested of the quantum change and structuring as per functions of informational metabolism of the informational medium within the collective or society in general. "Primitive" group is considered; it is shown, that 8 functional roles of this group correspond to 8 functions of the model of informational metabolism (A model). E.g.: the "chief of the gang" belongs to the first, i.e. programming function. Attention is given to the roles distribution in administrative group and A model function. Key words: socionics, quantum changes of the informational medium, primitive group, administrative group, psychology, synergetics, model of informational metabolism. --Rmcnew (talk) 15:38, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

Source: http://www.socionics.ibc.com.ua/ej/soc_98_1.html It says this on the16types.info ----

“Informational approach” (Alexander Bukalov, Olga Karpenko, Vladimir Ermak and others, and on the other hand - the alleged “Antisocionics” of Shiyan). Its adherents refer to socionics types as “types of information metabolism.” Moreover, they consider this concept not only applicable to the human psyche, but – in a more global sense – to “information” in general. It is significant that these ideas are extremely similar to some eccentric views, but also to synergetics (the theory of self-organizing systems), having recently sprouted from the depths of cybernetics. Unfortunately, very little is known scientifically about the relation of socionics with synergetics and, in a broader sense, with cybernetics. There is also the matter that the Kiev international institute of socionics is highly sympathetic to a number of esoteric approaches, rejected by the scientific world.

Source: http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin/articles/24685-information-metabolism-dmitri-lytov.html It says this on socionics.ibc.com.ua ----

Physics of Consciousness Boukalov A.V. Conscience and the Universe - It is shown that the universal vacuum if viewed as a conglomerate of relativist fields may be described as a giant computing system that controls movement of micro-particles and macro-bodies (planets, stars, etc.) Alike physical processes run in semiconductor crystals of modern computers used for construction of artificial intelligence systems. As an analogue of macro-computer, the Universe in total inevitably possesses attributes of consciousness and intelligence, and its particular subsystems interact with human consciousness and find their interpretation within the framework of religious systems and beliefs. Key words: consciousness, physical vacuum, computer, computations, religion. --Rmcnew (talk) 01:32, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Source: http://www.socionics.ibc.com.ua/ejpsy/psy_0412.html#top --Rmcnew (talk) 15:42, 30 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Hermeticism connection to Periodic Table of the Elements[edit]

It says this on www.wpi.edu ----

With the fall of Rome, much of the early work of alchemists was lost for Europe allowing the Arab form of alchemy to take root in European science. With the arrival of the Moors in Spain, came their alchemical knowledge as well as Islam. Arab alchemists are credited with the first practice of modern scientific method, as they were the first to bring structure to the study of nature’s chemical makeup. In the eight century C.E., the scientist Jabir Ibn Hayyan took the classic elements and expanded the system into a table of 7 elements and chemical processes, becoming the father of the medieval periodic table. Islamic alchemists and medical scientists created many tools that still exist today including the first distillation apparatus. The 12th century also brought the first Arab medical schools and some of the first pharmaceutical scientists emerged based around alchemy and a motivation to create and test medicinal elixirs. Through conflict with the Holy Roman Empire, alchemy soon spread across Europe and became one of the pseudo-sciences in medieval times (Holmyard).

Source: http://www.wpi.edu/Pubs/E-project/Available/E-project-043009-155538/unrestricted/McAliceMQP.pdf It says this on www.wpi.edu ----

The evolution of empirical scientific thought began to replace abstract speculation. The motivating factors of prolonging and improving life are what still drive doctors, pharmacists and scientists today. Medieval alchemy became known as “hermetic science” because of its connection to the surviving work of the Egyptians, The Emerald Tablet. Many works emerged on how to prolong human life, find immortality, and create compounds to improve one’s health.

Source: http://www.wpi.edu/Pubs/E-project/Available/E-project-043009-155538/unrestricted/McAliceMQP.pdf

Socionics connection to hindu tattwas and chakras[edit]

It says on socionics.org ---

Dmitri Lytov -(За соционику без ошибок, translation: For the Socionics without errors), Lytov says: [translation] "I think sooner or later, we are forced to answer the question of how socionic types correlated with central nervous system." - which implies that the Socionics is generally considered to be associated with the central nervous system, but that at this stage (or at least at the time of the article in 2001), Socionics remains a theory about information processing, which does not go into how. I think this is significant because it shows that although the exact correlation between the types and aspects of the central nervous system have not yet been established, the Socionics elements have always been considered to be processes carried out by the central nervous system.

http://socionics.org/theory/Default.aspx?load=lytov_mistakes.html It says on donaldtyson.com ---

The tattwas or tattvas are primal energies that underlie the five elements of Hindu philosophy -- akasha or akasa (spirit), tejas (fire), apas (water), vayu (air) and prithivi (earth). The term tattwas means realities or states of being. How they found their way into the magic system of the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn would be interesting to know, since most of the techniques of this Order were Western in origin, but they formed an essential part of Golden Dawn training in meditation, visualization, clairvoyance, consecration of instruments, making telesmatic images, and other aspects of the Golden Dawn system.

Source: http://www.donaldtyson.com/tattwas.html It says on thelemicgoldendawn.net ---

The five Tattwas are Eastern symbols for the five primary elemental qualities in Nature. In the West, they naturally correspond with the five so-called Aristotelian Elements of Magickal Philosophy. They also correspond with the Elemental Sephiroth on the Qabalistic Tree of Life.

Source: http://thelemicgoldendawn.net/zelator/tattwasinstruction.htm It says on golden-dawn.blogspot.com ---

The tattwas flow in regular rotation throughout the nervous system of the human body. exactly as in the Universe. “As above, so Below.” (Emerald tablet of Hermes)

Source: http://golden-dawn.blogspot.com/2009/02/golden-dawn-tattwas-their-little-known.html It says on socionics.ru --- According to T.N. Prokofieva, the subject of Socionics is a "study of the processes of information exchange rights with the world and their impact on the psyche." It is therefore important Socionics, having studied the energy-centers, to draw parallels between these ancient teachings and the young science socionics. Moreover, the study of this topic to determine the correspondence between the features and functions socionic awakened centers. In the future, this matter will give a new clue to the study of psychological, socionic and health problems of man, will open a new approach to study the causes of diseases. 1. 1. The lowest chakra - root (basal), or Muladhara ( "mule" - root "adhara - support).This chakra is considered as a link between the physical and subconscious worlds. It is located in the coccyx. Manages the processes of purification of the body and corresponds to the sacral nerve plexus. Its endocrine gland is the prostate is associated with male sex organs, rectum and colon. Of the organs of perception and action conform to her nose (sense of smell) and legs. When unbalance the Muladhara Chakra there hemorrhoids, constipation, sciatica, prostatitis, an inflammation of the ovaries ... Indeed, the Muladhara chakra corresponds to the primary element (Tattva) earth, the planet Saturn ... The most relevant Muladhara chakra socionic functions - business logic (P).

Source: (origional) http://www.socionics.ru/chakry.htm

Sources that show the links between socionics and various esoteric theories and yet are not considered reliable enough to include as sources on the socionics wikipedia page article[edit]