Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Siripong Siripool

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus‎. The delete !votes were more firmly rooted in policy, but strongest current in the discussion was that a combination of Western bias and a lack of accessible articles from the early digital age prevented proper demonstration of notability. While I accord such arguments less weight, a no consensus close is still the most accurate description of the discussion. Xymmax ^{So let it be written} _{So let it be done} 00:44, 31 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Siripong Siripool[edit]

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PROD objected, reason was there were some achievements. However the achievements does not even pass NBAD; fails GNG and BASIC too. No coverage about him found. Timothytyy (talk) 00:07, 19 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Sportspeople, Badminton, and Thailand. Timothytyy (talk) 00:07, 19 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Keep medalist at the top continental events such as Asian Games, Asian Cup and Southeast Asian Games. zoglophie 04:49, 19 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Keep pass NBAD: 1991 Thailand Open. See also interwiki. He is also well-known as Thai national team coach. Stvbastian (talk) 08:12, 19 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Olympics-related deletion discussions. Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 08:32, 19 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. The Thai page on him seemed promising, and then I clicked on a reference and it was just a picture of Xi Jinping?? Another source is an announcement that Siripong was hired as a coach of... something... Google translates the lead as "The Thai chicken transport army calls Siripong Siriphul, a former national team, as a coach". The rest of the refs from the Thai page are either dead or routine passing mentions. My own search also yielded mostly quotes from him, but I did find an article announcing that he was switching political parties (or as Google says: "The political party transfer festival of political people is still not over easily"). It's not SIGCOV, and seems to have been released by the Royal Thai Army so wouldn't be independent(?), but it might indicate there are other sources in a non-sport context. Regardless, the subject's achievements hold zero weight and arguments based on them must be dismissed; the article should only be kept if GNG is demonstrated. JoelleJay (talk) 00:44, 20 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for your research, would you suggest draftifying it? Timothytyy (talk) 01:03, 20 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- The first link mentioned is bad 404 handling by the Thai Post website, and the second is a hilarious example of how bad Google Translate can be with Thai headlines. It's about him being brought on as coach for the national badminton team. (ขนไก่, which means 'chicken feathers', is headlinese for 'badminton'. The word for 'feather' is also a homonym for 'carry' - that's how Google Translate messed it up as 'chicken transport'. And ทัพ 'army' is headlinese for 'national team'.) The third one has nothing to do with the army. กอง บก. is the website's ‘editorial team'. --Paul_012 (talk) 10:49, 22 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  Lol! Thank you for the clarifications! Have you been able to find any SIGCOV of him in Thai sources? JoelleJay (talk) 15:50, 25 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Google translates the lead as "The Thai chicken transport army calls Siripong Siriphul, a former national team, as a coach" – That's my new favorite sports team :) BeanieFan11 (talk) 14:55, 22 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Delete per GNG can't find any significant coverage.

1keyhole (talk) 04:39, 20 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Keep Florentyna (talk) 17:32, 20 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Weak keep I am personally convinced that this person would meet GNG if there was more internet reporting on badminton in Thailand in the early 90s... the argument I present is that the Western bias in sourcing and achievement requirements is probably at play and we should at least revisit those past discussion proposals of allowing more wiggle room for non-Western and historic subjects in some areas. Kingsif (talk) 22:35, 20 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Given his achievements, he must have had ranking atleast under top 15 at that time. But that sadly doesn't count as notable due to guidelines like those. zoglophie 09:07, 21 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Kingsif, in addition to the topic meeting GNG, NSPORT also requires that a reliable source containing secondary independent SIGCOV must be cited in the article to avoid deletion, regardless of sourcing difficulties (and in my experience this has actually prevented proportionally far more bios on low-level contemporary Western athletes from being made/retained than it has excluded genuinely high-level non-Western/historic competitors). JoelleJay (talk) 16:01, 25 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It has been my understanding that AfD is to decide if an article can meet notability requirements. NSPORT wants those sources in the article, AfD decides if it is possible that such sources could be put in the article, not that they must be before the discussion is decided. Of course, that isn't to say it is possible if sources are theoretical but hard to find; my !vote is not based on the restrictions being too restrictive, but I do think those discussions should be revisited. Anyway, there seems to be more enlightenment with sources further up, so I will leave it to those who can read Thai. Kingsif (talk) 20:35, 25 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The intention of the NSPORT restriction and its implementation at AfD is that articles that do not contain at least one source of SIGCOV should be/are deleted. Any presumption of GNG based on sports accomplishments only comes into play once that requirement is satisfied. Draftification would be a better alternative, to allow editors to find Thai sources if they do exist. JoelleJay (talk) 00:46, 26 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Draftify or delete. I was not able to find SIGCOV searching his name in Thai, however, my search was limited to Thai sports news and since it looks like he may also be involved in politics draftification could provide time for others to track down sources in that context. JoelleJay (talk) 00:50, 26 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, 78.26 _{(spin me / revolutions)} 02:48, 26 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Comment The Siam Sport article clearly a SIGCOV. The article title "Thai badminton team called Siripong to lead the team to compete in the Asian Championships". The article also said that he won 4 men's doubles title in the Thailand national championships, and also 8 consecutive times in the mixed doubles. In the Thai Daily News, Siripong Siripool as the subject of the article. Stvbastian (talk) 07:01, 6 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Hiring announcements like the first link are considered ROUTINE for NSPORT (plus it only has barely more than a sentence on him), and the second link is almost exclusively quoting/restating what he has said (not independent). No one has produced any new sources to assess, and what we have so far does not clear the bar for the required sourcing at NSPORT. JoelleJay (talk) 21:54, 6 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Weak keep, because badminton is a fairly major sport in Thailand and a national coach would meet GNG easily if he were appointed in the internet age. Explicitly not arguing for notability per NSPORTS. Vanamonde (Talk) 15:58, 6 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
What notability guideline are you arguing? IAR? JoelleJay (talk) 21:58, 6 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Weak keep. Silver at the Asian Games already fulfills WP:NATH. The article definitely needs more improvement tho. Tutwakhamoe (talk) 16:24, 6 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Tutwakhamoe, NATH requires athlete subjects to meet GNG and to have at least one SIGCOV SIRS cited in the article. Without that he cannot meet NATH. JoelleJay (talk) 21:55, 6 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Specific discussion of whether the subject does or does not pass GNG, and noting sources which may help with this, would be helpful. While the "keep" arguments are currently at a strong numerical majority, none address the assertion in the nomination that the subject does not pass GNG.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 01:34, 7 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Final relist as per Seraphimblade's relist 8 days ago. No comments since.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Daniel (talk) 00:20, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Delete. Fails WP:GNG and more importantly WP:SPORTSCRIT #5, which gives us no discretion to keep when no significant coverage can be found. BilledMammal (talk) 04:18, 16 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. Asian Games medalist. This likely indicates sources (likely in Thai) exist. Sportsfan 1234 (talk) 23:20, 21 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Sportsfan 1234, I am very surprised you would make this argument given you know about the requirement that a SIGCOV source must be cited in the article for the subject to meet NATH, and that meeting any sport-specific criterion is not sufficient at AfD if no SIGCOV sources have been identified. JoelleJay (talk) 23:40, 22 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Delete, with only two short articles being brought up here. WP:SOURCESEXIST. SWinxy (talk) 20:26, 22 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - fails the bare minimum guideline for sports figures found in WP:SPORTBASIC #5 Sports biographies must include at least one reference to a source providing significant coverage of the subject, excluding database sources. This is clearly failed and nobody arguing for notability has managed to find even one source to take this past that first hurdle. There was a lengthy discussion here which many Wikipedians participated in and the consensus was clear that we should not have articles that do not comply with this bare minimum criterion. I understand the arguments from those saying that he probably did have some coverage but, ultimately, that is pure guesswork and, without concrete proof, we shouldn't have an article. Deleting this article means that information is still retained at places like Badminton at the 1998 Asian Games – Men's doubles and Badminton at the 1992 Summer Olympics – Men's doubles so we lose little other than his date of birth and his infobox. Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 21:41, 23 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Delete: BLP, fails GNG and BIO. None of the sources in the article have IS RS with SIGCOV addressing the subject directly and indepth. BEFORE showed nothing that the BEFOREs the keep votes above showed no sources with SIGCOV. Database results and routine stories are not enough to support a BLP. WP:BLP states "Be very firm about the use of high-quality sources"'; BLPs need IS RS with SIGCOV addressing the subject directly and indepth for both content and notability per well known core policy (WP:V and WP:BLP) and guidelines (WP:BIO and WP:IS, WP:RS, WP:SIGCOV). // Timothy :: talk 18:06, 25 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Keep: per Kingsif. KatoKungLee (talk) 00:29, 28 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - it's always hard to find articles related to athletes from last century, especially in countries where we have no online archives available. But the Daily News relating to his coaching meets SPORTCRIT. Looking at what else can be found, there's also this. Nfitz (talk) 07:21, 30 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
??? The only coverage of Siripong in the Daily News article is "Coach Tong" Siripong Siriphul, badminton coach Badminton Association of Thailand under the royal patronage Mentioned [...] Coach Tong said [...] The other link is the one discussed extensively above. SPORTCRIT is definitely not met... JoelleJay (talk) 19:22, 30 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.