Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Marion Young

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was redirect‎ to Dundee School Shootings. Okay folks, this was a messy AfD to close and if someone wants to go down the DRV route I won't take it personally.

Numerically it's almost a tie, with a 6-5 lead in favour of delete, with a couple of other !votes.

Moving to policy, the delete !votes are consistently policy backed, while a couple of the Keep votes were not (even including one which while not saying the magic words could be reasonably read as an IAR position). The non-delete/keep !votes are adequately policy-backed.

So why not delete or no-consensus? Well, most of the discussion had this as a dichotomy, due to the lack of an event article to underpin the BLP1E reasoning, before the creation of the merged event article towards the end. Several delete !votes specifically noted that they would redirect if it was an option, which it now is. I have also been BOLD and gone on the basis that the Keep !votes would prefer a redirect to a delete outcome. Nosebagbear (talk) 12:55, 31 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Marion Young[edit]

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Non-notable individual. Fails WP:1E. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 16:52, 1 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Women and Scotland. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 16:52, 1 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Keep: a major player in a tragic event, and awarded GM. PamD 07:47, 2 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Comment If there was an article on the event, I'd be happy to see her redirected there, but not to either the perpetrator Robert Mone or her companion Nanette Hanson. With nowhere to which to redirect, I think she merits this short article. PamD 08:31, 2 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Tragedy is completely and totally irrelevant when weighing notability. If anything, it deserves special scrutiny given how often articles are created on tragedies as they happen only to have no sustained coverage. The question is whether George Medal is notable enough to meet WP:ANYBIO and whether every George Medal recipient should have an article. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 03:30, 3 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Keep: I don't believe 1E should apply when the one event is the very reason the person was awarded the highest UK civilian honour - as is the case with nearly all the other recipients. --10mmsocket (talk) 07:56, 2 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Young got George Medal,which is a tier below George Cross (which Nanette Hanson got for her part in the same event). PamD 08:24, 2 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the clarification. As you say, she was a major player in this event and my opinion is still that it should be kept. 10mmsocket (talk) 11:16, 2 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Delete NOTNEWS is what resonates for me on this one, as well as BLP1E. Yes, it was a tragedy, but this person had a role in a single incident. Being awarded for her bravery that day is not enough to make this person notable. Lamona (talk) 04:01, 3 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, CycloneYoris ^talk! 00:25, 9 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Delete - without question. This poor soul is notable for only one event and generally, we cover the event rather than the person. If not deleted, this should be redirected to Robert Mone#murder of Nanette Hanson. It's not just notability, it makes more sense to have this event within one section. Nanette Hanson may be a candidate for AFD also, but that's for another time I suppose. I author and edit many true crime articles, we almost never include a standalone article on the victim, no matter how tragic the circumstances or valiant their actions.MaxnaCarta (talk) 02:28, 9 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Delete a political theorist in Gscholar and a deaf lady looking for work in the 1980s are about typical of the hits you get when searching for this name. I'd redirect, or just delete it. This was 50 yrs ago and if nothing's been written about her role in the events since then, I doubt we'll find something for notability. Oaktree b (talk) 03:04, 9 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

~~Keep~~ I've added a few sources published around the 50th anniversary in 2017. Admittedly two are from the same journalist, same day, but the third has a different byline. The incident gets continuing coverage, and she gets at least a mention but in these instances more. Comments that this should be a sub-part of an article about the incident have some merit, but her role was not insignificant, and better to have an article about a hero/victim than one about the criminal.

Just because most hits are for other people isn't relevant. Search for "Marion Young" and "Mone" or "George Medal" and you get her results. Note that images of contemporaneous news stories (one of which is cited in the article) are reproduced here[1]

Oblivy (talk) 03:58, 9 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

She is only mentioned for one event. It does not make sense at all to have a standalone article on the victim of a crime. IE, imagine if we had stand alone articles for firefighters on 9/11 who received coverage for their conduct and received an award? It would make much more sense for the event to be covered with a section on the individual. Same applies here. She deserves coverage, in the section about the event which is within the bio of Robert Mone. MaxnaCarta (talk) 00:25, 10 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

As I suggested above, I don't see how it makes sense for the murderer to get an article but it's not justified for another participant in the incident (she's not just a victim). Is your rationale that he has two events because he escaped from prison? She got a medal; is that another incident? Oblivy (talk) 05:07, 10 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Oblivy if the murderer isn’t notable then we should rename the article and alter it to be about the event rather than the perpetrator or victim. This is how we cover notable murders. — MaxnaCarta ( 💬 • 📝 ) 11:01, 13 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, maybe that's the best approach. I think WP:CRIME is broad enough to support her having an article, but it's a close call. The idea that the perpetrator should get an article but the victim shouldn't doesn't seem right. So the proposal would be to merge with Robert Mone and rename that article as something like Dundee School Shooting? Oblivy (talk) 12:46, 13 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I added a note to the talk page for Robert Mone. Oblivy (talk) 13:37, 13 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Strong Keep: she is notable for having received the UK's highest civilian honour. In the absence of an article on the event to merge/redirect to. This article ought not be deleted in the meantime. Jack4576 (talk) 09:26, 9 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, the George Medal is the second highest civilian gallantry honour after the George Cross. -- Necrothesp (talk) 10:24, 11 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Delete Fails GNG. The contemporary coverage I found was about the crime, her marriage and the awarding of the George Medal. They didn't go into detail about her life. I can't find any sources that significantly cover her. Dougal18 (talk) 15:21, 9 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: More opinions are welcome.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Timothytyy (talk) 07:46, 16 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Keep or rather complicated option described below. Did anyone actually read WP:1E? It commences: "When an individual is significant for their role in a single event, it may be unclear whether an article should be written about the individual, the event or both." That is to say, it's about deciding, given that an event is notable, whether we write the article about the event, or the person involved. The event is clearly notable, it was being written about (extensively) 40 years after it happened, so it's got lasting impact. Young was one of the most important people involved. Therefore clearly we need an article, and the only question is whether we have an article about her, or the event. We don't have an article about the event, so until we've got one, we have to keep the article about the person. 1E is grounds for moving the article to have the name of the event rather than the person, not grounds for deletion. But if we move the article to cover the event, what do we do with Mone, who unfortunately is famous for more than this; he also broke out of psychiatric hospital and killed more people? Since this is all closely related, I do think one option would be to merge everything in Mone, Hanson and Young into a single article, and create redirects for them individually. Young and Hanson are both worth remembering; the event was a very major one, and both played vital roles in it. The worst outcome of this would be deletion, but it's difficult to know where to send a redirect without an article on the event. Elemimele (talk) 18:02, 16 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Draft under an appropriate title for the event and create appropriate redirects when the article is moved to mainspace. Article meets BLP1E about this honorable individual, but the information can be preserved and presented well in an expanded article about the event. // Timothy :: talk 20:55, 20 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

comment This discussion seems to have fallen into the doldrums. May I renew/amplify my suggestion above, which is to MERGE with Mone's article and then RENAME that article to Dundee School Shooting or something similar. There seems to be an opportunity to get consensus, considering @Elemimele and @PamD comments above.

I put a note on Talk:Robert Mone but nobody came here to discuss.

As a matter of mechanics, I'm not sure how this would work - I can do the work to merge the two, and I've got the rights to move the article. But I'm worried if I'm WP:BOLD somebody may object to the move, and then we're left stuffing this poor lady's story into his article which I would argue is disrespectful to her memory and no more/less an infringement of WP:1E than this article. Oblivy (talk) 07:20, 29 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I would be okay with this article being merged to Mone and the resulting article being renamed to Dundee school shooting, preferably leaving a redirect at Marion Young to aid readers in finding her story. This would be in keeping with 1E. I agree, it would be completely wrong to stuff this article into Mone and leave that article under his name. If you're prepared to do the merge, Oblivy I think it's a sensible solution, count me in favour. If the process gets messed up half-way because someone objects to the move, we can always undo back to the status quo. Elemimele (talk) 09:08, 29 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I have merged the three articles, changed Robert Mone to Dundee School Shootings. It handled the redirect automatically Fingers crossed that this doesn't get a lot of objection - there aren't a lot of editors on the Mone page, but one never knows.

Assuming this goes to plan, seems next steps would be to AfD or even WP:PROD Nanette Hanson. Oblivy (talk) 02:16, 30 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Merge per my latest comments

Keep You don't see that many folk getting the George Medal. UK society has recorded the event, we should as well. scope_creep^Talk 14:46, 30 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. Doesn't meet WP:GNG; and despite the horrific nature of the case she was involved in, that doesn't automatically make her eligible for a page. — Amakuru (talk) 11:30, 31 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.