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This page is an archive of the proposed deletion of the article below. Further comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or on a Votes for Undeletion nomination). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was Delete --Allen3 talk 13:08, August 13, 2005 (UTC)

Standards of measure in the Copper Age[edit]

Same reason as for Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Standards of measure in the Modern West etc yesterday. Additionally, the entire idea of comparing these units in a table by mm equivalent is at fault. Some of these units were very precise, some were quite variable and uncertain over times. Finally, these units are already covered by Ancient weights and measures and sub-articles, to the degree these articles have survived the contributions of this same anon. Sorry for the rant, but I get tired of being his janitor. Egil 08:52, 5 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. I'd suggest leaving a redirect, but it's unlikely anyone would type that exact phrase in, so just delete. Proto t c 09:20, 5 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]
* Keep, Valuable, well researched, well cited, interesting, informative, excellent links. Rktect 7:25, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
updated and under mediation, also as to the linking these pages were all
linked together under ancient weights and measures
which is where they belong

Rktect 6:03, 5 August 2005 (EST)

Looking at unit standards of measure comparatively by cultures
makes it much easier to see who shared measures with whom.
If you would like to see them compared in their own or contemporary units
as well as mm, why not put that comment on the discussion page?
Most copper age measures are given as multiples of a standard
of which the best surviving example measures 1/2 meter.
As to giving their values to the nearest whole mm rather than to several
decimals of mm, copper age standards are not precise to decimal mm
or variant to 10's of mm and generally best established to +/- 1 mm per foot.
For those cultures for whom there is a written contemporary
primary reference to sharing a standard (as with the letter of Nanse}
which was cited on the discussion page for ancient weights and measures)
There are long term investigations of the units involved and the results
are now considered basic historical fact.
In the past many people have applied an ethnocentric perspective
to "their measures" stating that they are "Anglo Saxon", "German",
"Danish" French or "English" when they actually have much longer
histories that have been explored in the literature.
Being able to see the connection broken down by conventional archaeological
period rather than simply lumped to gether as ancient makes the similarities
and differances much clearer
The objection that these studies are original research is also invalid
as their original sources have been cited on the discussion page and
in some cases transcriptions of the original ancient language with
translations given in English
Comment While unconvinced, I stand in awe of a response written in poetry. --Icelight 18:19, August 5, 2005 (UTC)
  • Delete as per all the other articles in this series. Nandesuka 17:26, 5 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]
    • Furthermore, Rktect's reponse is incorrect: there are no sources cited on the discussion page for this article at all. Nandesuka 19:00, 5 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]
      • The page in question is the discussion page of

[Ancient_Weights_and_Measures]

      • When user Egil decided he wanted to rewrite the whole page in a different format
      • to catagorize by cultures rather than by standards I suggested that it was important
      • to keep the comparative aspect of the standards which you could previously see just
      • by scrolling up or down, not changing pages.
  • Delete, no useful data other than a list, said list is adequately covered in other articles. Xaa 23:36, 5 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]
rktect 8/6/05
If you think this table is just a list and adequately covered elsewhere
I'd like to know where you are looking


Indo European Mycenean Minoan Greek unit AfroAsiatic Egyptian unit
fngr unit mm ft fngrs unit mm ft cbts ryl cbts hayt minutes
1 daktylos 19.3 1/16 1 uu 18.8 1/16 1 24 1/28 1/280 1/8400
1.4 u 19.3 1/16 1.35 u 25.3 25/296 25/444 5/1036 1/6216
1.3 nail 19.3 1/16 1.33 inch 25 1/12 1/18 1/21 1/210 1/6300
2 condylos 38.6 1/8 2 mnw 37.5 1/8 1/12 1/14 1/140 1/4200
3 ? 57.8 3/16 3 špsi 56.3 1/5 1/8 3/28 3/280 1/2800
4 palaiste 77.1 1/4 4 wršpsiwaw 75.0 1/4 1/6 1/7 1/70 1/2100
5 ? 96.4 5/16 5 pt t 93.8 1/3 5/24 5/28 1/56 1/1680
6 ? 115.7 3/8 6 sb3 112.5 3/8 1/4 3/14 3/140 1/1400
7 ? 134.9 7/16 7 spdw 131.3 4/9 7/24 1/4 1/40 1/1200
8 dichas 154.2 1/2 8 mh 150.0 1/2 1/3 2/7 1/35 1/1050
9 ? 173.5 9/16 9 dsfirrm 168.8 4/7 3/8 9/28 9/280 3/2800
10 ? 192.8 5/8 10 tm3<tsf 187.5 5/8 5/12 5/14 1/28 1/840
11 ? 212 11/16 11 r< 206 2/3 11/24 11/28 11/280 11/8400
12 spithame 231.3 3/4 12 swtu 225.0 3/4 1/2 3/7 3/70 1/700
13 ? 250.6 13/16 13 pa 243.8 4/5 13/24 13/28 13/280 13/8400
14 ? 269.9 7/8 14 thoth 262.5 7/8 7/12 1/2 1/20 1/600
15 ? 289.1 15/16 15 šsp 281.3 1 5/8 15/28 3/56 1/560
16 pous 308.4 1 16 mhtf 300.0 1 2/3 4/7 2/35 1/525
17 ? 327.7 1 17 sa 318.8 1 17/24 17/28 17/280 17/8400
18 ? 347.0 1 18 imi 337.5 1 3/4 9/14 9/140 3/1400
19 ? 366.2 1 19 m 356.3 1 1/5 19/24 19/28 19/280 19/8400
20 pygon 385.5 5/4 20 Nbthyt 375.0 11/4 5/6 5/7 1/14 1/420
21 ? 404.8 21/16 21 sth 393.8 1 1/3 7/8 3/4 3/40 1/400
22 ? 424.1 11/8 22 sts 412.5 13/8 11/12 11/14 11/140 11/4200
23 ? 443.3 23/16 23 stir 431.3 14/9 23/24 23/28 23/280 23/8400
24 pechya 462.6 3/2 24 ptah 450.0 1 1/2 1 6/7 3/35 1/350
25 ? 481.9 25/16 25 gb 468.8 1 4/7 1 25/28 5/56 1/336
25.6 mcts 493.4 8/5 25.6 ma 480 13/5 16/15 32/35 16/175 8/2625
26 ? 501.2 1 3/8 26 k33 487.5 15/8 13/12 13/14 13/140 13/4200
27 ? 520.4 27/16 27 m3<t 506.3 1 2/3 9/8 27/28 27/280 9/2800
28 royal cubit 539.7 7/4 28 re 525.0 1 3/4 7/6 1.00 1/10 1/300
40 bema 771.0 5/2 40 gradus 750.0 2 1/2 5/3 1.43 1/7 1/210
48 yard 925.2 3 48 yard 900.0 3 2 1.71 6/35 1/175
72 xylon 1387.8 9/2 72 xylon 1350.0 4 1/2 3 2.57 9/35 3/350
80 passus 1542.0 5 80 passus 1500.0 5 10/3 2.86 2/7 1/105
96 orguia 1850.4 6 96 fathom 1800.0 6 4 3.43 12/35 1/87
160 akaina 3084 10 160 decempeda 3000 10 20/3 5.74 4/7 1/52
264 rod 5088.6 17264 rod 4950 16 1/2 11 9.43 33/35 1/32
280 hayt 5397 18 280 hayt 5250 17 1/2 35/3 10 1 1/30
1056 perch 20354.4 66 1056 perch 19800 66 44 37.7 132/35 1/8
1600 plthrn 30840 100 1600 plthrn 30000 100 200/3 57 40/7 4/21
1920 actus 37008 120 1920 acts 36000 120 80 68.57 48/7 8/35
2800 khet 53970 175 2800 khet 52500 175 350/3 100 10 1/3
3339 ar 64359 209 3339 3kr 62606 2082/3 1113/8 119 477/40 31/78
8400 minute 161910 525 8400 minute 157500 525 350 300 30 1
9600 stdn 185040 600 9600 stadion 180000 600 400 343 240/7 8/7
10000 stdm 192750 625 10000 stdm 187500 625 417 357 250/7 25/21
10560 frlng 203544 660 10560 frlng 198000 660 440 377 38 44/35
11520 cable 222048 720 11520 cbl 216000 720 480 411 288/7 48/35
12000 stade 231300 750 12000 std 225000 750 500 429 300/7 10/7
19200 diaulos 370080 1200 19200 dls 360000 1200 800 686 69 16/7
80000 milon 1542m 5000 80000 ml 1.5km 5000 3333 2857 285 200/2
84480 mile 1.6km 5280 84480 ml 1.6km 5280 3520 3017 302 352/35
115200 dlchs 2.22km 7200 115200 dlchs 2km 7200 4800 4114 411 14
280k .5l 5.4 17500 280000 .5l 5.3 17500 11667 10000 1000 33.3
560k l 10.8km 35000 560000 l 10.5km 35000 23333 20000 2000 66
576k sch 111 36000 576000 shn 10.8 36000 24000 20571 2057 69
1280k st 2.5 80000 1280000 st 2.4 80000 53452 45714 4571 152
6m dgr 111 359922 6m dgr 112.5 375000 250557 214285 21429 714

How user Egil's massive edit changed the whole nature of the page[edit]

First He proposed to "cleanup" the page by catagorizing by culture rather than measure
On his own, over protest, he unilateraly did so
Then he decided to delete all reference to the original version
which preserved the comparison of units between cultures on a single page

Ancient Measures by Culture[edit]

Rktect7/31/05
Another way to approach the listing of measures would be to break it up by time and unit
These will eventually compare cultures in a less ethnocentric way (note pre-conquest Americas)
They are a work in progress requiring the names and values of many units be filled in
ideally they would also eventually get their value in increments of their own units.
   233. siraraki-ce3 dijir lagacki-a gu2 mu-un-na-si-si
   234. na4 gen6-na kug la2-e-de3 gi-gur gen6-na gub-bu-de3
   235. jicba-an inim gen6-na kur-kur-ra [cu] ba-an-ja2-ja2-ne" Vegaswikian 05:24, 6 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Comment to Vegaswikian: You are right, the articles Ancient Mesopotamian weights and measures etc in their present form should be axed to. Same author, same problem. The issue with these articles is that once upon a time, there was reasonable content here. As you perhaps may deduct from the above, this is now impossible to maintain. -- Egil 09:08, 6 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]
rktect 8/6/05 why, in an article discussing sumerian standards of measure, would you
want to delete a cite in the language being discussed which proves the point being made?
I can see that if you don't know a lot about Sumerian standards of measure you might not
be interested but why burn the book that someone else might want to read?
This is a votes-for-deletion page. I have answered you here: User_talk:Rktect#Burning_of_books.3F -- Egil 12:13, 7 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]
rktect 8/7/05
Egil, why won't you respond where others can read your response.
I asked you to tell me what your expertise is
in standards of measure of the copper age
This was your response, with my response to that interleaved
The most revealing part of your objection is as follows
User Egil comment

As you may have understood, in Wikipedia, discussions are resolved by consensus. It does not matter if you can read Sumerian, and understand hieroglyphs. Probably the common masses, i.e. Wikipedians, are not capable of understanding nor appreciating material of such extraordinary intelligence and knowledge that you are producing.

Whatever the reason, I suggest you go elsewhere. -- Egil 12:11, 7 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Burning of books?[edit]

User Egil comment

As the votes-for-deletion hopefully have shown, Wikipedia is not the right place for the type of material you are producing. I have given you a number of reasons before, and other Wikipedians have now also expressed their opinion.

rktect 8/7/05 The votes for deletion are ultimately reviewed
by a competant administrator who will probably decide
what to do with the articles based on their overall content.
You have made a number of false statements about them
which a competant administrator will probably pick up.
You have claimed they are original research when the articles
cite sources that are in their fifth printing and
in some cases date back to classical sources.
You have claimed they are just lists when in fact they are tables
You have claimed they have no value or are covered elsewhere
which is far from the case because they are comparative tables
which restore the comparitive nature of having lists of unit
values on the same page that you removed by putting them
on separate pages plus adds the utility of putting them
in a table form for comparison
What amazes me is that the articles were not even complete before
you began demanding their deletion. What that tells me is that you
are afraid of discussing their content.
Egil, your massive edit changed the whole nature of the page
You proposed to "cleanup" the page by catagorizing
by culture rather than measure
On your own, over protest, you unilateraly did so
Then you decided to delete all reference to the original version
which preserved the comparison of units between cultures on a single page
User Egil comment

We are not taking of burning of books. The Internet is full of places where you can put your content. Very many free of charge. I defintely suggest you move your material to other such locations before your valuable material is deleted.

: rktect 8/7/05 I seriously doubt it will be deleted
as I can see that others are now aware of your activities
User Egil comment

As you may have understood, in Wikipedia, discussions are resolved by consensus. It does not matter if you can read Sumerian, and understand hieroglyphs. Probably the common masses, i.e. Wikipedians, are not capable of understanding nor appreciating material of such extraordinary intelligence and knowledge that you are producing.

Whatever the reason, I suggest you go elsewhere. -- Egil 12:11, 7 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

: rktect 8/7/05
Actually if you read the deletion page it informs that the
votes are used as a guideline but that it is up to the judgement
of the administrator what action if any should be taken
particularly when the page is just being created and is still
being actively worked on every day it would be the normal
policy to keep it and wait to see how well it is ultimatly
polished and perfercted.
  • Delete as for the other articles in this series. Ken 13:01, August 8, 2005 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in an undeletion request). No further edits should be made to this page.
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