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The following discussion is an archived debate of the case of suspected sockpuppetry. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page. All edits should go to the talk page of this case. If you are seeing this page as a result of an attempt to open a new case of sockpuppetry of the same user, read this for detailed instructions.

User:LactoseTI

[edit]
Suspected sockpuppeteer

LactoseTI (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)

Suspected sockpuppets

Komdori (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)


Report submission by

Wikimachine 18:51, 18 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Evidence

The evidence being constructed here. Take a look at [1] and [2]. Many of their most edited main & talk pages coincide. Also, their areas of interest which are Japan (mainly out of interest, or in defense against KPOV) & Korea (mainly for dispute) coincide too. Look at [3], and [4]. Their first edits were about Asashoryu Akinori. First Komdori opens a Requested Move case voluntarily, even without talking about it in the discussion page, and LactoseTI joins in & supports the page move, despite the fact that rest of the crew oppose the suggestion.

And then Komdori edits heavily on Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (Japan-related articles), under sections "Sumo Wrestlers (not names)", (obviously, he was unsuccessful with name change) and "Proposal" and "Pseudonyms", under which he shares lots of edits with LactoseTI. They then both edit on Wikipedia:Sandbox & then go back to Asashoryu Akinori.

Komdori moves on to the naming dispute at Talk:Japanese invasions of Korea (1592-1598), while LactoseTI at Dokdo naming dispute (used to be Liancourt Rocks) & articles such as Japanese-Korean disputes.

Both participate in a dispute at Talk:Yasukuni Shrine. Komdori continues to talk at the Imjin War talk page (= Japanese invasions of Korea (1592-1598), so does LactoseTI, except that he also has Dokdo page to worry about.

Something funny is that both Komdori & LactoseTI don't really know about Korean culture except at the extent that a foreigner could read a book & know a little about it. Komdori's edits on articles of Korean topics are usually rv's, etc., something that a non-Korean could easily do. On the other hand, he seems to know a lot about Japanese culture & its history. I wonder why a Korean who came from Korea would be so interested in Japan, but not really in his own country... He doesn't even have a WikiProject Korean banner, & I don't think he is even in the project... like most Korean editors here. It's as if he doesn't want to participate, & want to be all alone. But that's not likely either. LactoseTI, on the other hand, who is not a Korean, is overly concerned with Korean articles & making sure so that they are NPOV. He's also very interested in Japanese stuffs.

Another thing I've noticed is that their edit intervals swap. There are times when their edits overlap, but probably that's because the Wikipedia server only tracks edits by the minute, not by the seconds. So we can't really find out if they ever have a simultaneous edit. Furthermore, at intervals when Komdori edits a lot, LactoseTI edits little & vice versa. Also, there are intervals in which one account would be restive while the other account would be extremely active, and vice versa. I'd like to show that more in the data section I'm creating, and I'm right now.

Their recent violations include 3RR revert war in here for Dokdo article. However, LactoseTI refrained from participating in the discussion any further, which I assume is meant to serve as a buffer against SOCK attacks.

Finally, let me add that an admin already confirmed that their IP addresses coincide are from the same region. However, they pleaded "not-guilty" (I made that up) because they went to the same university & they were using the same internet live in the same region. Even later, LactoseTI claimed that he was a professor at a university in New Jersey & Komdori claimed that "knew him". However, LactoseTI's behavior at Talk:Turtle ship in making aggressive & uncompromising stance against the statement that the turtle ship was iron clad & at his talk page where Merumman (? is that his name?) & he constantly gave "good faith violation & block" warnings to each other. So, we already know that their IP address is the same, it's just a matter of looking at their areas of interests & edit intervals, etc. (Wikimachine 01:14, 18 May 2007 (UTC))[reply]

Comments
  • Sock puppets Multiple accounts are not against Wikipedia policy per se. In the recent discussion of Dokdo the two users are not supporting each other and so it would not be a sock puppet violation (even if there is a sock puppetry multiple account). You need to show that they are sock puppet and there is a sock puppet violation. I don't see any recent violations. Macgruder 03:50, 18 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Hmm Macgruder, where did you come from? Let me explain, just in case there could be a misunderstanding. At first, I assumed that Macgruder & Komdori were the 2 sock puppets. However, you joined Wikipedia in 2004 while Komdori joined in 2006. So, it didn't really matter... however during that process when I researched both of your edits, I felt that Komdori's edits were kind of funny... Reminds me of LactoseTI? So I went on to check on him.
I already showed the 3RR revert violation, and I know that LactoseTI could join any time soon. Plus, he had already discussed in Dokdo naming dispute before. (Wikimachine 18:33, 18 May 2007 (UTC))[reply]
I get it from the Wikipedia Policy guidelines. Multiple accounts may have legitimate uses, but users must refrain from using them in any way prohibited to sock puppets, and from using one account to support the position of another, the standard definition of sock puppetry. If someone uses multiple accounts, it is recommended that he or she provide links between the accounts, so it is easy to determine that they are shared by one individual. Since pretty much everything you have written relates to multiple accounts rather than sock puppetry I assume that you are unaware of the difference.
So multiple accounts are not prohibited on Wikipedia. What is prohibited is using multiple accounts from supporting each other for example. I see no recent violation of that issue. This whole page is ridiculous not because of the issue of multiple accounts (which I don't believe anyway) but you have not focussed your arguments on whether the two users are supporting each other. You have simply said some ridiculous stuff about what you perceive as personality or knowledge issues suggesting that two people are the same (this in not sock puppetry!) . Something funny is that both Komdori & LactoseTI don't really know about Korean culture except at the extent that a foreigner could read a book. That is both totally irrelevant to the issue, rude, and not something I want to see Wikipedians saying.
I suggest you read the WP:SOCK guidelines and focus on those. Macgruder 09:08, 19 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]


So you are in an (admittedly heated) discussion with two that agree on a topic you disagree on, and you immediately think "sock puppet!" You couldn't get enough together for it, so you tried to find an editor who had similar edits to either of them in order to further your accusation. Even if Lactose and I we were the same person (we're not), you've barely listed anything that would be against policy. I'm sure I've probably reverted in several cases where there was a Wikipedian nearing his 3RR limit, maybe even helped you once or twice with it. --Cheers, Komdori 18:40, 18 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I already know that having multiple accounts is not illegal. What I've seen in edit history, assuming that the right conditions are true (that they are indeed sock puppet & master), are illegit. WP policy states that you wait for the very recent violation even if you sight a violation from long time ago. I think that I have an obligation to make SOCK attack b/c supposedly they made these illegit edits (coordinated efforts for the sumo wrestler... again, all these are hypothetical) since long time ago & they performed 3RR.
Komdori, I always watch out for sock puppets in disputes. The evidence of your past edits itself serve as violations, plus the 3RR. (Wikimachine 02:25, 20 May 2007 (UTC))[reply]
  • I'm a bit surprised by this report. It's lucky I happened to see it because I happened to be watching some of the talk pages and the editors contributions who submitted this report. No one mentioned it to me. I'm not sure what the policy is when you file one of these things if you only mention it to the editor who has the most edits or what, but with over 1,000 myself (yay,I hadn't noticed until now), it would have at the least been courteous to tell me (I just noticed he left a tag on my user page, but that was all). I'm particularly distressed by this comment because I had just got through leaving Wikimachine a comment about how I felt the conversation we'd been having was being very fruitful and thanking him for his level head.
I might add that an admin never said our IP coincided. This is a simple fabrication. I severely doubt that to ever have happened. We're both in the same region of the country (heck, we work at the same university, though there are over 10,000 here). We have tea together, we don't live together. For the nth time, Wikimachine, it's in NY, not NJ. As for the first edits being regarding the same article, well, I was introduced to Wikipedia by him after visiting for seeing sumo for the first time in my life. We talked about the article, and how to improve, and we started editing.
And I'm getting sick of people using as evidence things like "He doesn't act like a Korean" or "He doesn't stick together with Koreans by joining Korean enclaves here." I'm sorry, I don't throw this word out so easily, but that's racism. Who are you to say how a "Korean should act"? As for "not knowing Korean culture," you didn't even know what my wife's pet name for me (Komdori) meant in Korean. Something simple like this might demonstrate a level of knowledge of Korean culture that you don't have, but you don't see me accusing you with some racist thing. --Cheers, Komdori 14:37, 18 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Komdori, I assumed that you'd watch your user page. And no, I'm didn't fake that nice talk we had the other day. I really meant it. Ok, fine, IP don't coincide then. I just remembered something similar when we had a dispute at Dokdo long time ago, and, when you got blocked, I went "great, less opposition. Something was really fishy to begin with." However, when you got unblocked for the reason that the admin was mistaken, you were truly out of my radar. Understand, I understood you as something of a foreign/unknown object that I felt would serve as a counterbalance to this systemic bias (as you can see, I'm part of WikiProject countering systemic bias... however I feel that there are biases not only in articles/topics covered but in these communities that different Wikipedians form) amongst the Korean Wikipedians (I notice that a noticeable amount of them are just acting plainly stupid, probably middle schoolers feeling all hi & nationalistic).
Like I said, I moved away from S. Korea a long time ago when I was young, so I forgot a lot (I can speak without stutter, but my vocab is limited to that of a 3rd grader). And I'm not being a racist. If you're going to accuse somebody of being a sock puppet, you better cut it nice & clean because you're only going to do it if you're really sure that somebody is really a sock puppet. Or else, you shouldn't accuse someone of being one because there is a risk that they might not be sock puppets, and that's bad for many reasons. So, I thought through & gathered as many data & observations, and made one hammering blow. That's what I think. If I was a racist & defined how Koreans should act, etc., (assuming that you'd believe my story above) why would I even have thought like that (above, again)?
I admit. Komdori & LactoseTI talk really differently. (Wikimachine 18:49, 18 May 2007 (UTC))[reply]
Wikimachine, I still think you're one of the most level-headed editors I bump into now and again. I have also noticed a bit of a "youthful nationalistic" trend in some of the Korean groups, but I think you might be right that it's time to join in WikiProject Korea. I sometimes wonder what to edit, and it might be a nice source to get ideas.
Please don't take the word "racist" too much to heart, I just meant by it that to define how people should act because of their race is kind of a simple definition of racism, and it seemed you did this when you said, "I wonder why a Korean who came from Korea would be so interested in Japan, but not really in his own country... He doesn't even have a WikiProject Korean banner, & I don't think he is even in the project... like most Korean editors here."
You and I have had a long and serious discussion on the Dokdo page recently. I understand the feeling to be eager to participate in such a discussion, but be afraid of people "breaking the rules." I'm not breaking them. When that page comes down to a vote, I'm sure there will be at least few sock puppets attempts on both sides, but I won't be in the group of editors using that tactic. I don't think you will, either, and although I am disappointed that you thought there was a possibility I was breaking rules, I definitely won't hold it against you. We have continued the same spirited conversation on that talk page even after this report. Hopefully it can get settled soon (perhaps people more familiar at looking at sockpuppet cases will realize quickly this isn't one) and we can move on.
In the future, if you have a suggestion about joining a project like the WikiProject Korea group, etc., please bring it up to me. I am not anti-Korean for sure, I just have a strong interest in the dispute articles to try to find a long lasting solution that will satisfy everyone. I heard lawyers say if you find a solution where no one is happy, it means it's probably the best one. --Cheers, Komdori 20:08, 18 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I'll take "level-headed"ness as a compliment, Komdori. I'm really sorry if there was no sock puppetry to begin with & is that right that the violation must take place in the discussion? I don't want to be a hypocrite by withdrawing my accusations, and saying "all right we're all friends now" immediately. But I admit I had not considered the possibility that two really good and close friends editing on Wikipedia might make cooperative moves that all the more allow false sock puppetry accusations to slip in very easily.
I also read your words on my discussion page. No, I wasn't really serious in all this except for the edit data & your edits that seem to overlap in areas of interest. I have not a single drop of grudge for you not joining WikiProject Korea, nor do I think that you joining WikiProject Korea should be something so overwhelming that the burden would be on you to talk with me about joining the project. Plus, it's not like I'm the president of the project. I can't speak for the whole group. Like I said, it is my philosophy that when I make a sock accusation, I either do it 100% or don't do it at all b/c it just destroys everything.
Again, I'm really impressed (could you get it?) by your reaction. I would just have exploded & gone 100-day war on why I'm not a sock puppet. If you have nothing to do with this sock puppetry case, it's my sincerest belief that you should run for adminship. You remind me a lot of Visviva, who now seems to have retired. --Cheers, (Wikimachine 21:21, 18 May 2007 (UTC))[reply]
Just look at the old RFCU case for LactoseTI, and you'll see that it was determined at high levels in Wikipedia, that LactoseTI and Komdori are NOT sockpuppets of each other. User:Mackensen has personally presided over on this decision.--Endroit 19:25, 19 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Japanese_invasions_of_Korea_%281592-1598%29&diff=next&oldid=68948541

It's not like I'm doing it only on people who's in disputes with me. This is the 3rd time I'm doing it. By the way, are there any outside opinions other than these editors whom I already know? (Wikimachine 02:17, 20 May 2007 (UTC))[reply]
Conclusions
  • LactoseTI and Komdori are separate editors, and so are not sockpuppets. They acknowledge knowing each other, however, so both users are urged to be aware of Wikipedia's policy on meatpuppets. I see no evidence of policy violation in this report, however. --Akhilleus (talk) 02:18, 21 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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