Language desk
< May 19	<< Apr \| May \| Jun >>	May 21 >

Welcome to the Wikipedia Language Reference Desk Archives
The page you are currently viewing is an archive page. While you can leave answers for any questions shown below, please ask new questions on one of the current reference desk pages.

May 20[edit]

Why are most lakes, including the Great Lakes, named with the word "Lake" first? And not the proper name first?[edit]

Is there any particular reason that these lakes are named with the term "Lake" first and the proper name second? In other words, why is it named Lake Erie instead of Erie Lake and so forth? This is the case with all five of the Great Lakes. Most bodies of water, as far as I know, are named with the proper name first and the type of water body second (e.g., Atlantic Ocean, Red Sea, Nile River, etc.). Thanks. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 04:47, 20 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Were the French active in the vicinity in the early colonial days? Akld guy (talk) 04:56, 20 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, they lost the area in the French and Indian War. StuRat (talk) 04:59, 20 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

It's wider than just the US Great Lakes. There's Lake Victoria, Lake Tanganyika, and Lake Baikal, for example. But, it's a good question as to why, in English, does the word "lake" typically go in front while other bodies of water do the reverse, with some exceptions, like the River Raisin. StuRat (talk) 04:59, 20 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Please cite a reference for the Great Lakes being in the US. --69.159.60.83 (talk) 06:09, 20 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

There are other lakes in the world called "Great Lakes", but the OP said there were 5 and named one as Lake Erie, so that means they meant the US Great Lakes. StuRat (talk) 02:12, 21 May 2016 (UTC) [reply]

StuRat, my guess is that this comment refers to the fact that four of the five Great Lakes are shared between the US and Canada. Lake Michigan is the only exception. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 02:01, 22 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Could be. But I would say that all 5 are in the US, and 4 of them are in Canada, too. StuRat (talk) 02:07, 22 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

River Raisin is only an exception in American, this is pretty much the norm in English, River Thames, River Severn etc etc. Fgf10 (talk) 06:47, 20 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Which might more aptly be river Thames, river Severn. Most Old World river names (like city names) don't need a generic element; but most New World river names are (adjective) River or (commemorative name) River or the like – or (like Mississippi) once were independent proper names but the name has since become more strongly attached to something else. —Tamfang (talk) 08:02, 20 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

(ec) If you look at Category:Lakes of Illinois, Category:Lakes of New Zealand, Category:Lakes of New South Wales and Category:Lakes of Manitoba, it's clear that it's common throughout the anglosphere for some to be X Lake and others to be Lake X. Why any particular lake is called by one format rather than the other is probably pretty hard to track down. In most cases the namers would be dead, and it's doubtful they ever chronicled why they chose one order over the other. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 05:05, 20 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Yes. But, as far as I know, this is common only with lakes. And not other bodies of water. Right? Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 05:51, 20 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

In the US, the pattern "Lake X" is generally more common in the east coast states while "X Lake" is generally more common in the rest of the country. See the data here. (Data for Canada is not available for download in the same manner as was used to construct this, as far as I know.)

As to the Great Lakes specifically, they were indeed originally named in French. In the Historical Atlas of Canada by Derek Hayes (2002, ISBN 0-295-98277-2) several maps are reproduced that show some or all the Great Lakes. In particular there is a map in French showing the "Partie Occidentale du Canada ou de la Nouvelle France" (western part of Canada or New France) as engraved by Vincenzo Coronelli and published in 1688. The five lakes are named as follows:

LAC DE TRACY, ou SUPERIEUR, et LAC DE CONDE´.
LAC DES ILINOIS ou MICHIGAMI ou LAC DAUPHIN.
LAC DES HURONS, et KAREGNONDI ou ALGONKINS MICHIGANGE, ou LAC D'ORLEANS.
LAC ERIE´; ou TEIOCHARONTIONG, et LAC DE CONTY et du CHAT
LAC FRONTENAC, ou ONTARIO, et SKANIADORIO. ou S.LOUIS

Another map in the same book was drawn in 1678 by Jean-Baptiste-Louis Franquelin; this gives just one name in French each for the five lakes, and four of them are the modern names:

LAC SVPEPERIVR.
LAC DES ILINOIS.
LAC HVRON.
LAC ERIE´
LAC ONTARIO.

The weird punctuation, the accents placed after the letters, and the seemingly random use of "et" (and) and "ou" (or) to join alternative names, and the extra PE in one place, are copied here verbatim.

--69.159.60.83 (talk) 06:09, 20 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

A few more datapoints: None of the lakes of England are "Lake X" (aside from some colloquial mistakes such as "Lake Windermere"). Although the Irish, Scottish and Welsh equivalents (Lough, Loch and Llyn) tend to precede the name. MChesterMC (talk) 08:43, 20 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

In England it's common for lakes to have the name last - certainly the most widely - known ones. "Water" invariably comes last - e.g. Southampton Water. "Pond" invariably comes last - e.g. Clapton Pond, Eagle Pond. "Reservoir" invariably follows. "River" seems to follow if the name is descriptive of something, for example New River, Rattlesden River. All Australian river names appear to precede. 78.145.24.30 (talk) 10:22, 20 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Southampton Water isn't a lake - it is a tidal estuary, an inlet of the sea. There is a common trick question in England, which asks "how many lakes are there in the Lake District?" The answer is just one - all except Bassenthwaite Lake being named either -mere or -water. It works for Scotland too, which also has only one lake (Lake of Menteith) - all others being lochs. 86.141.19.154 (talk) 12:05, 20 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

'Nile River' is not idiomatic in UK English; it would be more common to refer to it as the 'River Nile' or just 'the Nile'. AlexTiefling (talk) 10:39, 20 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I'm pretty sure the distinctions, in the U.S. at least, are arbitrary. There's no rhyme or reason, even within states, besides the "Lake X form is a bit more common on the East Coast", but even there there are almost no states where "Lake X" is the most common form. We can even look at neighboring lakes, and see confusing patterns. Lake Winnepesaukee and Winnisquam Lake are within a few miles of each other, and have different naming conventions. Same with Lake Gaston and Kerr Lake. There's no pattern or rhyme or reason to it. --Jayron 32 11:55, 20 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Quite. Southampton Water is, I believe, the estuary of the River Test. Derwentwater is, however, a lake. In the same way, it is wrong to talk of the Sahara Desert - "sahara" is the Arabic for desert. 78.145.24.30 (talk) 12:23, 20 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

A built-in redundancy, like Mount Fujiyama, Sierra Nevada Mountains, or ATM Machine. For further info, see RAS syndrome. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 12:30, 20 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

There was a place I lived in in Japan, and nearby there was a 森林公園フォレストパーク, which means 'Forest forest public park forest park.'

KägeTorä - (影 虎) (もしもし！)

12:47, 20 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

And let us not forget the La Brea Tar Pits. —Steve Summit (talk) 13:03, 20 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Ah, yes. And another related article is List of tautological place names. Seems to me I've heard the term "Rio Grande River" before. And I've definitely heard of The The Angels Angels baseball team. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 13:07, 20 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the tautological place names link, BB. I always thought Pendle Hill is a great example of this, with a suffix added as the meaning of the preceding element was lost in the mists of time. BbBrock (talk) 21:49, 20 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

There's just no figuring these things. Consider the "chain of lakes" in Minneapolis: Lake Harriet, Lake Calhoun, Lake of the Isles... and Crystal Lake. Then there's Lake Minnetonka, and the nearby Medicine Lake and Bass Lake. Then up north you have Mille Lacs Lake, which means... can you guess? Thousand Lakes Lake. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 13:15, 20 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Why is this an "issue" with lakes more so than other water bodies? Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 20:20, 20 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

This question was also asked at Stack Exchange,[1] and they don't know either. The best guess is that the size of the lake has something to do with it. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 21:15, 20 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Note also Billington Sea the smallest Sea on earth. Collect (talk) 21:41, 20 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Bigger than the Molten Sea, i think. —Tamfang (talk) 20:25, 22 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

New England has a few of these anomalously-named lakes and ponds. See Opechee Bay, for example, which is a pond and not a bay (under any normal definition of "Bay"). --Jayron 32 21:58, 20 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

"Ponds" a lot smaller than that one are called "lakes" in Minnesota. (Hence the 10,000.) ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 15:15, 21 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Then there's Hampton Roads, which uses an old-fashioned meaning of "road", and which was so named long before there were any "roads", as we think of them, in the area. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 15:18, 21 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Cartographers, as a rule, are as fun, and as prone to ipsa dixit, as anyone. Just trying, when possible, to avoid the River Styx. No one has yet discussed how Julius recognized the Rubicon in whatever patois he spoke, but we'll get there, no doubt. :) Alanscottwalker (talk) 15:33, 21 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
- By sailing on the Rubiyacht of Omar Khayyam. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 15:43, 21 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  - This is the magnificent craft that Bugs is describing. MarnetteD|Talk 15:53, 21 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, all. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 01:50, 26 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Etymology of craic further back than Middle Ages[edit]

It would appear that the word craic has its etymology in Middle English but the word is not present in Old English. In any case, I suspect there is a link to the Réunionese storytelling expression Kriké ? Kraké ! (and the Carribean variant Krik? Krak!). Réunionese Creole also has the word 'krak' which means jokes or lies and I have read it said that this word has Celtic origins. Does anyone have more details on the ancient origins of this morpheme? Munci (talk) 06:21, 20 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

My American Heritage Dictionary says OE cracian ‘to resound’, from a PIE root apparently meaning ‘to cry hoarsely’. —Tamfang (talk) 08:07, 20 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the info, @Tamfang: Munci (talk) 15:47, 22 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

It's from Irish 'craic' meaning 'fun' or 'joke'.

KägeTorä - (影 虎) (もしもし！)

10:57, 20 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

This seems to indicate it comes from protogermanic originally; which isn't to say the word isn't also in Irish; the Irish may have gotten it from the Anglo-Saxons (and not the other way around). --Jayron 32 11:11, 20 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, the article on craic says exactly that: "Like many other words over the centuries, crack was borrowed into the Irish language with the Gaelicized spelling craic." With a reference. --Jayron 32 11:13, 20 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I stand corrected, just for the craic.

KägeTorä - (影 虎) (もしもし！)

12:37, 20 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

How many other words over the centuries were borrowed into the Irish language with the Gaelicized spelling craic? —Tamfang (talk) 20:06, 22 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]