Wikipedia:Peer review/Melisende, Queen of Jerusalem/archive1

Melisende, Queen of Jerusalem

I am listing this article for peer review because, after 16 years on this project and probably twice (thrice?) as many GA nominations, I would like to submit my first FA nomination. Borsoka really put me through my paces during last month's GA review, and I believe that this has resulted in an exceptionally high quality. I would like to get opinions and suggestions of other interested editors. Is everything clear? Is it fun to read? Does it cover everything you would expect it cover? Do you agree with Borsoka's assessment of the quality of sources? Other comments are also welcome.

Thanks, Surtsicna (talk) 18:35, 29 January 2025 (UTC)

Comments from Noleander

• Pictures should generally have "alt" text for visually impaired, see WP:ALT. I think FA reviewers are pretty insistent on that.

• Consider putting some of the pics on the left side of the page ... I think most FA quality articles tend to alternate left/right ... but that is not an FA requirement.

• Quality of prose is great .. I'm having a hard time finding any suggested improvments.

• Format & layout of cites & references looks great, & should satisfy FA reviewers.

• In Bibliography, you have three works by Mayer, but his name middle name is "E" in one, and spelled out in the other two. Probably should be consistent in this Bibliiogrpahy, even if the books/articles themselves vary in the middle name spelling. But that is my opinion: I'm not sure what the WP MOS says on that.

• Cite: Runciman 1952, Appendix III ... is there a page # that could be provided to reader?

• . @user:Surtsicna done. Noleander (talk) 15:25, 31 January 2025 (UTC)

The image placement is a perennial mystery to me: when I have them altering, someone inevitably says that they should be on the right per MOS:IMAGELOC, and of course vice versa. Today's FA, for example, has all six on the right side, but yesterday's had a majority on the left side. The appendix has no pages marked, I am afraid. I have added the alt descriptions and made Mayer's name consistent throughout. Thank you! Surtsicna (talk) 10:45, 6 February 2025 (UTC)

Comments from Edwininlondon

With the caveat that I am neither a native speaker nor familiar with the subject, I am happy to give some comments with respect to making a successful FAC nomination.

Sources Sources look fairly comprehensive to me. There is this one about images and this about her wealth that you may want to consider using, as both have at least a dozen citations according to Google Scholar.

Prose

• She was the first female ruler of the Kingdom of Jerusalem --> I could not find this claim in the main text
• terrorized --> I expected this text to be in British English, where it is usually spelled terrorised. But I think it is in AmEng, given the spelling counseled instead of counselled. Or am I mistaken?
• believes that Melisende was born in Edessa --> I would link the previous instance of Edessa, not this one
• During this journey the king of Jerusalem, Baldwin I, died. --> I believe it would be helpful to the reader to mention that this Baldwin is not related to Melisende.
• Baldwin II was elected to succeed him --> it gets a bit tricky with all these Baldwins. I assume Melisende's dad wasn't called Baldwin II until his coronation, so the bit "also known as Baldwin II" comes perhaps a bit premature. Just as a proposal perhaps rework this whole bit into something along the lines of this: "She and two of her sisters, Alice and Hodierna, were born while their father Baldwin of Bourcq was the count of Edessa. Folda thus believes that Melisende was born in Edessa. In 1118, her father set out on a pilgrimage to Jerusalem. During this journey the king of Jerusalem, Baldwin I, died. Her father was elected to succeed him. Her parents were crowned king and queen in 1119, after which her father was named Baldwin II. Melisende subsequently gained another sister, Ioveta."
• King Baldwin started providing for his daughters --> King Baldwin II
• citing the chronicler William of Tyre --> maybe add 12th century
• Baldwin started associating Melisende --> Baldwin II
• Their marriage --> it's been a while since Melisende was mentioned, so "Their" is a bit odd to me
• King Baldwin bestowed --> King Baldwin II
• but Baldwin marched to Antioch --> but the king marched to Antioch
• The queen is commonly said --> I would add who claims that it is commonly said
• By choosing Manasses rather than one of her subjects, Melisende ensured the preservation of the royal authority. --> I'm not sure I follow this

Images:

• I would add links to the captions. As an example, Crusader states in the first one

I believe this article is in great shape and will have a good chance of passing at FAC. Edwininlondon (talk) 15:20, 11 February 2025 (UTC)

Comments from Adam Bishop

I think everything looks good overall. This was on my hypothetical list of articles to work on, because the previous version that must have been there for about 20 years really wasn't very good...I am happy to see that this version is a huge improvement!

I made a few copyedits for language/style. One thing I am wondering about is whether to use American or British spellings (honor vs. honour, etc). I thought we generally use British spellings for medieval subjects, but now that I'm writing this, I guess that doesn't really make a lot of sense. Is the rule that we just stick with whatever the author prefers?

As for history, I think the sources are used well. Mayer's and Hamilton's essays are the classic sources and interpretations, but they are quite old now. There are many instances where historians rely on Mayer's interpretation of things, not just for Melisende, but for pretty much everything...he was an extremely prolific writer. Perhaps we (as in, other historians, not Wikipedians specifically) are too trusting. For example the argument that Ioveta was sent away to a monastery because she was the only daughter born after Baldwin II became king (and could have therefore been a threat to Melisende) isn't really an idea that is supported by more recent historians. Another example is Baldwin III issuing a charter in his own name, "leading Mayer to believe that Melisende forbade that any charters be issued in her son's name only". Perhaps the article relies too much on Mayer's hypotheses. But the information is properly cited to Mayer and it is presented as his opinion, so there is nothing technically wrong with it.

There are some good recent sources too, Folda and Barber, so that helps. There are more recent works that would likely be helpful as well, such as two articles by Erin Jordan - “Corporate monarchy in the twelfth century Kingdom of Jerusalem” in Royal Studies Journal 6 (2019), which is largely about Melisende; and “Hostage, sister, Abbess: the life of Iveta of Jerusalem” in Medieval Prosopography 32 (2017), which is of course about Ioveta but naturally talks a lot about Melisende. There is also a book about Baldwin II by Alan Murray in Routledge's "Rulers of the Latin East" series, which might be worth looking at. There is apparently a forthcoming book in the series about both Fulk and Melisende, by Danielle Park. It wouldn't necessarily mean this page would have to be rewritten, but it would be great to incorporate it, whenever it's released (unfortunately I'm not sure when it's supposed to be published, since it has been listed in the forthcoming titles since Murray's book in 2021).

There are also a few recent works about women during the crusades, and medieval queenship in general, that might be helpful (at least for background context): Sarah Lambert, "Queen or consort: rulership and politics in the Latin East, 1118-1228" in Queen and Queenship in Medieval Europe (ed. Anne J. Duggan, 1997), Susan B. Edgington and Sarah Lambert, Gendering the Crusades (University of Wales Press, 2001), Natasha R. Hodgson, Women, Crusading and the Holy Land in Historical Narrative (Boydell, 2007), and Helen J. Nicholson, Women and the Crusades (Oxford University Press, 2023).

Otherwise it looks good and I don't have any major changes to make. Adam Bishop (talk) 02:40, 14 February 2025 (UTC)