Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2008-07-03 Silent Hill

Wikipedia Mediation Cabal
Article	Silent Hill
Status	closed
Request date	04:03, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
Requesting party	waka (talk)
Parties involved	Fragments of Jade (talk · contribs), Thaddius (talk · contribs), Waka (talk · contribs), Lenin and McCarthy (talk · contribs), Sherwood-Nightshade (talk · contribs), Marasmusine (talk · contribs), Saquarry (talk · contribs), 88.161.129.43 (talk), 76.120.173.40 (talk), 24.3.180.166 (talk)
Mediator(s)	Launchpad_72, The Prophet Wizard of the Crayon Cake, Link

Request details

We're unable to come up with a compromise that satisfies all parties, which has resulted in edit wars and name calling. The issue is whether or not to include a particular character's last name in the article, and if so, which name to use.

Who are the involved parties?

• Fragments of Jade (talk · contribs · count · logs · block log · lu · rfa · rfb · arb · rfc · lta · socks confirmedsuspected)
• Thaddius (talk · contribs · count · logs · block log · lu · rfa · rfb · arb · rfc · lta · socks)
• Waka (talk · contribs · count · logs · block log · lu · rfa · rfb · arb · rfc · lta · socks)
• Lenin and McCarthy (talk · contribs · count · logs · block log · lu · rfa · rfb · arb · rfc · lta · socks)
• Sherwood-Nightshade (talk · contribs · count · logs · block log · lu · rfa · rfb · arb · rfc · lta · socks)
• Marasmusine (talk · contribs · count · logs · block log · lu · rfas · rfb · arb · rfc · lta · socks)
• Saquarry (talk · contribs · count · logs · block log · lu · rfa · rfb · arb · rfc · lta · socks)
• 88.161.129.43 (talk · tag · contribs · count · WHOIS · ip details · trace · RBLs • http • logs · block log · arb · rfc · lta · spi · checkuser · socks )
• 76.120.173.40 (talk · tag · contribs · count · WHOIS · ip details · trace · RBLs • http • logs · block log · arb · rfc · lta · spi · checkuser · socks )
• 24.3.180.166 (talk · tag · contribs · count · WHOIS · ip details · trace · RBLs • http • logs · block log · arb · rfc · lta · spi · checkuser · socks )

What's going on?

There is some debate about which last name, if any, should be included on the Silent Hill 3 summary section of the Silent Hill page. This has resulted in a vigorous edit war and has produced pages of talk page arguments. Users Thaddius (talk · contribs), Waka (talk · contribs) (that's me), Lenin and McCarthy (talk · contribs), Sherwood-Nightshade (talk · contribs), Marasmusine (talk · contribs), Saquarry (talk · contribs), and 88.161.129.43 (talk) have argued that sources indicating that the full name Silent Hill 3's protagonist is Heather Morris are insufficient, and that the page should not be changed to include the name "Morris." Fragments of Jade (talk · contribs), 76.120.173.40 (talk), and 24.3.180.166 (talk) argue that "Morris" is the correct name and that inclusion on the page is required. Contradictory sources have been provided, and two attempts at compromise (listing only "Heather", with no last name, and using a footnote to describe the contention) have been rejected by Fragments of Jade (talk · contribs). At this point we've lost all hope of good faith, accusations of sock puppetry are flying, and no common ground is in sight.

What would you like to change about that?

I would like a third party to weigh in on the dispute and give their opinion. I would like users who are not aware of Wikipedia policies (or are in obvious violation) to be reminded of those policies by a nonpartisan third party. Mostly, I want the edit wars to stop and the page to stabilize.

Mediator notes

• Case submitted. waka (talk) 04:03, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
• Case Opened. Reccommendation Made. Awaiting response of involved parties. Launchpad_72 09:52, 8 July 2008 (UTC)
• Case tentatively resolved. Awaiting response from all involved parties. Launchpad_72 06:40, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
• The arguments have started again. I have to go play disaster control. Launchpad_72 01:54, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
• Oldbie stepping in to assist. ;) - The Prophet Wizard of the Crayon Cake 17:19, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Administrative notes

Launchpad_72 says there seems to be a bit of he-said-she-said going on in the discussion. Launchpad_72 09:52, 8 July 2008 (UTC) Launchpad_72 says the discussion since my last check-in seems to have become very civil. Launchpad_72 06:40, 9 July 2008 (UTC) Launchpad_72 says so much for my last comment. I've gotta go put out fires. Launchpad_72 01:54, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Sources

This section centralizes all of our information into one location for easy reference.

Information that supports "Heather"

Put sources that would seem to verify that Heather has no last name, or that her last name is not verifiable by any canonical source.

• She is referred to only as "Heather" in the game Silent Hill 3. Her last name is never written or spoken within the game itself.
  • In Douglas' notebook he mentions that Cheryl started "Using [the] alias 'Heather'" and that she does so soon after the events of SH1. No last name is given as part of the alias and Harry is never mentioned as taking on a different first or last name either.
• The Official European SH3 Website lists her name as 'Heather' with no last name on each language's site.
• The Official Japanese SH3 Website only calls her 'Heather'.
• Translated Memories calls her simply 'Heather' while other characters are given last names.
• The European boxart calls her 'Heather'.
• The Japanese boxart calls her 'Heather'.

Information that supports "Heather Morris"

Put sources that would seem to verify that Heather's last name is officially Heather Morris.

• Fragments of Jade claims to have received a response to an e-mail they sent to Konami USA confirming last name for all English releases ("Thank you for contacting Konami Support. At this time, we can only confirm that for all english releases of Silent Hill 3 her name is Heather Morris."), although the validity of this e-mail is in question and cannot be confirmed. This also qualifies as original research and cannot be included in Wikipedia. (Jade should fill in the details, i.e. e-mail header)
• Unnamed documentary where last name is mentioned as 'Morris'.
  • Mr. 88 thinks that FoJ might be referring to this documentary. There 'Heather Morris' is mentioned in it (at 11:49 in the link provided), but it's clear that they're referring to the voice actress, not the protagonist. Assuming this is the documentary FoJ is referring to, this may not be proof at all. (Jade should verify that this is the documentary she was talking about)
• The North American boxart calls her 'Heather Morris'.
• Gamer's Hell have a quote from Wilson Cheng, the Product Manager at Konami of America, Inc. where he states that the character's name is 'Heather Morris'.

Miscellaneous sources

Anything that falls into none of the above categories but is still relevant goes here.

• As we learn at the very last moment of the game, this character's real name is "Cheryl." This makes her the daughter of the protagonist in the first Silent Hill, Harry Mason. However, no last name is ever assigned to Heather/Cheryl herself.
  • Because it is revealed that she is the daughter of Harry Mason, this has led some fans to believe that 'Mason' is her last name, and, in turn, to disagreements between Mason and Morris supporters in the past on the Silent Hill 3 and Heather (Silent Hill) (now redirected to Alessa Gillespie) pages, and spurred the recent edit war on the Silent Hill series overview page. In light of contradictory sources, it was suggested that, according to WP:NPOV, the last name be omitted to eliminate future edit wars.
• A quick google search shows that the general public is also confused as to her real last name. Mason Morris Both None.
• The Official US SH3 Website has been taken down.
• A Producer mentions that she used to be called Helen, but that they named her after the voice actress, Heather Morris. This is a vague statement that could mean either just the first name or the entire name. No way to be sure.
• A response to an email sent to Konami Europe by Thaddius states that her name is 'Mason', although the validity of this e-mail is in question and cannot be confirmed. This also qualifies as original research and cannot be included in Wikipedia.

E-mail from Konami Europe

I'm putting this here for the benefit of the list above. I received a response from Konami Europe regarding Heather's last name:

Re: [Ticket#2008070410000214] Support Anfrage
From: Konami Support ([email protected])
Sent: July 16, 2008 9:13:38 AM
To: [personal e-mail address removed]

Dear customer,

Thank you very much for contacting the Konami customer support team.

The name of the main characters are Heather Mason and Douglas Cartland, more we don't say otherwise we would spoil the story of the game.

Your Konami Support Team

Konami Digital Entertainment GmbH Berner Str. 103-105 60437 Frankfurt am Main Germany

Local Court of Frankfurt am Main: HRB Nr. 24990

Managing Director: Kunio Neo, Kazumi Kitaue/>

• Unfortunately the above is useless unless it includes ALL e-mail headers (received from/by servers, X- entries, message ID ... ALL headers. BMW(drive) 16:12, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

• • Ok, but Wikipedia's formatting will wreak havoc with it:

X-Message-Delivery: Vj0zLjQuMDt1cz0wO2w9MDthPTA=

X-Message-Status: n:0

X-SID-PRA: Konami Support <[email protected]>

X-Message-Info: JGTYoYF78jHFai2KpgTjfjK5HgXworZu1TWR4Rq197adroIOEZ7l/JhHt1APZfLuNrWEv1rjg/Ujg1jQuXy1EL0mxEOWvXdA

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Subject: Re: [Ticket#2008070410000214] Support Anfrage

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Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 15:13:36 +0200

Message-ID: <[email protected]>

To: [personal e-mail removed by thaddius]

From: Konami Support <[email protected]>

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Dear customer,



Thank you very much for contacting the Konami customer support team.



The name of the main characters are Heather Mason and Douglas Cartland, more

we don't say otherwise we would spoil the story of the game.



Your Konami Support Team



Konami Digital Entertainment GmbH

Berner Str. 103-105

60437 Frankfurt am Main

Germany



Local Court of Frankfurt am Main: HRB Nr. 24990 

Managing Director: Kunio Neo, Kazumi Kitaue 







[personal email removed by thaddius] schrieb:



> Spiel: Silent Hill 3

> 

> Kategorie:

> Allgemeine Frage

> 

> ----

> Name:

> Kage

> 

> Frage:

> I'm just wondering what the last name of the protagonist is because there seem

> to be conflicting reports all over the internet. Any help would be

> appreciated.

> 

> Thanks.

> 

> User-IP-Adresse:

> [personal IP address removed by thaddius]

> 

> 

</

--Thaddius (talk) 16:15, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

This email is obviously fake. Evidence from the UK version already proves her name is "Heather Morris". Also, it's already been proven that there is no way her name could be "Heather Mason", as it's known both of them changed their names when they went into hiding.Fragments of Jade (talk) 19:13, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

This email is obviously fake.

... because?

Evidence from the UK version already proves her name is "Heather Morris".

What evidence?

it's already been proven that there is no way her name could be "Heather Mason", as it's known both of them changed their names when they went into hiding.

While it's true it would be pretty dumb for her to keep the last name "Mason," it wouldn't be the first dumb detail in the plot... Not that I believe her last name to be "Mason." I personally stand by what the Japanese material say, i.e. "Heather" with no last name specified. 88.161.129.43 (talk) 19:51, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

I assure you it's real, FoJ. I've been saying that she didn't have a last name, why would I make up a fake email saying that it's 'Mason'? --Thaddius (talk) 20:02, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Also, look at the times in between when I first posted the e-mail and when BMW asked me to post the header (here's the comparison). Are you suggesting that it took me 6 minutes to create a fake header? I'm flattered that you think I can, but I assure you I can't. --Thaddius (talk) 20:07, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Those headers look valid. To verify, I'm going to email Konami myself. I personally don't give a shit what Heather's last name is, and thus have no motive to fake an email. This is still all original research, but it gives us an idea of what sources are creditable. --The Prophet Wizard of the Crayon Cake 20:45, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

I think that's all the 'evidence', aside from a link that FoJ or someone else had where someone from Konami USA called her 'Morris', and of course the headers for FoJ's e-mail. Most of the things up there are unencyclopedic and\or original research and can't be used in Wikipedia, and the stuff that is credible is contradictory. --Thaddius (talk) 11:16, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Email to [email protected] by mediator

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
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Subject: Re: [Ticket#2008071710000075] Protagonist
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From: Konami Support <[email protected]>
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Dear customer,

Thank you very much for contacting the Konami customer support team.

As this email address is for online technical support only, we regret to
inform you, that we are unable to assist you with your inquiry.  


Thank you very much for your understanding.



Your Konami Support Team

Konami Digital Entertainment GmbH
Berner Str. 103-105
60437 Frankfurt am Main
Germany

Local Court of Frankfurt am Main: HRB Nr. 24990 
Managing Director: Kunio Neo, Kazumi Kitaue 



[email removed] schrieb:

> A group of editors on Wikipedia are currently trying to improve the
> Silent Hill article, and would like to know what the official full
> name of the protagonist is.
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> -- 
> Everybody has a secret world inside of them. All of the people of the
> world, I mean everybody. No matter how dull and boring they are on the
> outside, inside them they've all got unimaginable, magnificent,
> wonderful, stupid, amazing worlds. Not just one world. Hundreds of
> them. Thousands maybe."
> 
> - "The Sandman" (Neil Gaiman)
> 
> 

...Interesting. I might have worded it a bit too official-like. What now? (I need to sleep before I think about this; it's well beyond my bedtime) --The Prophet Wizard of the Crayon Cake 14:26, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Did you e-mail them directly? Judging by your e-mail siggy I think you did. I contacted them through a ticket service on their website. It then took them a coupla weeks to get back to me. These e-mails prove nothing though because there's no way to know if FoJ's or my e-mails are real. If you came back with the same response as mine someone would just accuse you and I of being in cahoots anyway. All the evidence compiled above proves one thing, the thing that I've been saying all along: people are confused as to what her last name is. This is why I wanted to take the neutral rout and not put a last name. For some reason someone finds that suggestion to be unreasonable. --Thaddius (talk) 14:43, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

This sounds like sound reasoning. I'll also say that, if her last name is related to the plot of the game, it's generally good courtesy to omit spoilers and such from areas that aren't explicitly labeled as spoilers. Does everyone else agree? --The Prophet Wizard of the Crayon Cake 16:33, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Most people here will agree with that. FoJ is our only obstacle on this point. --Thaddius (talk) 00:30, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

• By the way, the e-mail that I got back from Konami had virtually identical headers as well. Fragments Of Jade ... let's see yours please BMW(drive) 16:24, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Discussion

Extended content
Sorry if I didn't make this clear, but I started a new thread here. It's obvious that this discussion was leading nowhere. --The Prophet Wizard of the Crayon Cake 00:05, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Conduct

I'm asking all parties in this case to remain civil and to avoid personal attacks. It does not help the mediation process. Work with each other and this case can be solved easily. Seddσn ^{talk Editor Review} 20:58, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

A clean slate and a new proposal

Alright guys, since this is going nowhere fast, I'll now be helping as a third-party/mediator. For the record, my role isn't to make a decision, it's to help you guys create a working compromise. I have some requests for each of you before we begin:

• 88, BMW, Thaddius- You have a very valid argument, but I need you to keep a civil tone with Jade. I realize it's frustrating, but it saves a great deal of pain in the end to keep it cool and take Jade seriously.
• Jade - Your point could actually be valid, but you are presenting it poorly. You may in fact have all the evidence that you claim, but so far we have no way of verifying this.

Now that that's out of the way, My first proposal is that we start on a new page so that we don't end up going in circles again. My second proposal is that we organize the evidence/sources for each argument into one location. To do this, I've added a "Sources" section to the top of this page. I'd like all the parties involved to place all of the information they have in the appropriate list. Once we know what we know, we know what our article knows it can know. ;)

Hopefully this will turn out better than the discussion that was taking place before. Bear with me guys. The Prophet Wizard of the Crayon Cake 17:19, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

No way to verify it? I posted links to various articles, to the dvd where her name is stated as "Heather Morris", and posted the text of the email. The other party has yet to post any kind of proof at all.Fragments of Jade (talk) 19:13, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

You didn't post a link to the documentary. I did. And it doesn't say that her name is "Heather Morris." And there's no way to verify your e-mail if you don't provide a few specifics, like, say, the headers, for example. 88.161.129.43 (talk) 19:39, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

I posted the email, as well as the fact that her name was stated in the video. And it is. Quite blatantly.Fragments of Jade (talk) 20:34, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

"Heather Morris" is only stated as the name of the voice actor in the making of documentary in question. --Lenin and McCarthy | (Complain here) 21:08, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

I posted the email

Again, yes, eventually. But we're still waiting for the headers.

as well as the fact that her name was stated in the video.

You wouldn't answer when I asked what the video was exactly, and you're not the one who posted the link. Besides, like Lenin and McCarthy said just above, the character is only called "Heather," in that documentary. 88.161.129.43 (talk) 21:16, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

---

As much as I enjoy circular arguments, I'm going to have to step in for a moment and remind everyone that they are currently wasting their time with repeating this argument, and my advice would be to stop right now before it cycles through the same bullshit as before. This same discussion has happend at least 20 times now, and this one is not magically different.

Since the email actually doesn't matter at all and won't really decide anything in this case, is everyone here willing to disregard the email that Fragments of Jade claims to have received from Konami? It's not valid evidence for an argument, and it's certainly not a verfiable source; there is no value in confirming its accuracy.

I believe what is more important than validating headers at the moment is understanding what our desires are for this article, and suggesting a compromise that everyone (it's difficult, yes) agrees on. There is simply no other way to do this that won't basically descend to edit wars and indefinite blocks.

To achieve such a compromise, it is helpful to know what everyone wants in the Silent Hill article, and what everyone is willing to allow in the Silent Hill article. So, below this comment, I'd like everyone to state what they want in the article, and what they are willing to settle for in the article. Again, I want both, as well as the rationale for each. Do not debate what anyone lists below; because, unlike Heather's last name, all evidence unanimously shows that you will be wasting your time attempting to debate the fine points.

Thank you - everyone - for your patience with this. I am determined to get you guys a Silent Hill article that you're all happy with.--The Prophet Wizard of the Crayon Cake 23:26, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

I would like to see the last name omitted from the article. In light of the Mason and Morris debate this seems like the best thing to settle on for me. --Thaddius (talk) 00:33, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

That sounds good for the main article, but maybe the footnote should be moved to the SH3 article. --Lenin and McCarthy | (Complain here) 00:39, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Same here. 88.161.129.43 (talk) 01:56, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Agreed as well. I don't think her last name is really relevant enough to list on any page, but this proposal sounds like a fine compromise. --waka (talk) 03:06, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, I put a brief explanation of the 'name problem' on the Heather page but a few hours later the user named A Man In Black blanked the page and redirected it to Alessa Gillespie. A similar explanation could be added there, but the page might need a rewrite if it collects Alessa, Cheryl and Heather onto one page. --Thaddius (talk) 10:58, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Once again, that is not a compromise. That's you guys getting what you want. There is no point in posting proof, because you guys will simply ignore it and claim it does not exist. Wikipedia only requires that you cite things you add, and I cited the name "Heather Morris". The fact that there is an article with a member of Konami USA stating that as her name proves it wasn't just some error on the box. The name is canon. It doesn't matter how a manga differs from an anime based on said manga-in the end, both stories are considered canon. "Biohazard" is the Japanese name, but we've still got a bunch of articles around here calling it by the US name, "Resident Evil". There is no reason to ommit this. If you truly don't think it's important, then just let "Heather Morris" be there.Fragments of Jade (talk) 18:14, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

• ~sigh~ Being "on the box" is not Canon. Being stated during gameplay is Canon. Everyone here so far has posted proof, it's your turn. At least paste the e-mail with your headers from Konami USA .. show us something. It's frustrating trying to get any real information from you, and that doesn't help your case. BMW(drive) 18:40, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

The fact that there is an article with a member of Konami USA stating that as her name proves it wasn't just some error on the box.

'Could still be an error on the box and in the article, you know? Besides, one could very well be based off the other...

It doesn't matter how a manga differs from an anime based on said manga-in the end, both stories are considered canon.

That's certainly news to me. Who decreed that?

"Biohazard" is the Japanese name, but [...]

Jade, Jade, Jade...

CakeProphet, I realize you'd like us to achieve a compromise that would please all parties (and so would I), but do you really think there's any chance of that happening, here? I know I can think of an indefinite block that would be both well-deserved and extremely helpful... 88.161.129.43 (talk) 19:19, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

88, shut up. You can't just block someone because they disagree with you. If anyone deserves to be blocked, it's you, who has gone out of their way to annoy others and derail the conversation, not to mention all the insults. And yes, anime and manga are both considered canon, even if they differ from one another. You can't keep ignoring my proof or claiming it's an error. There's no reason to believe the box and articles are all just mistakes. Contrary to what you believe, 88, we Americans are not idiots.Fragments of Jade (talk) 22:00, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm American, and I disagree with you. And I should also point out that Gametap disagrees with you as well. I think it's safe to say they wouldn't have changed their blurb unless they knew it had an error.

(message above by Lenin and McCarthy)

"Changed?" Did that same page call her "Heather Morris" at some point? 88.161.129.43 (talk) 13:44, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

You can't just block someone because they disagree with you.

Well, good thing that's not why I'd like to see you indefinitely blocked, then! I was actually thinking about the whole "sock puppetry / lies / bad faith / ridiculous accusations" package. The fact it would actually put an end to this "discussion" is a nice bonus.

not to mention all the insults

And the racism. Let's not forget about all the racism.

And yes, anime and manga are both considered canon, even if they differ from one another.

Ermm... Bullshit?

Few mangaka will go out of their way and say "this is canon, but that, while official, isn't," for... well, obvious reasons: that would be kinda bad for business. Most of the time, "canon" is in the eye of the fan, and as such it's... "diverse," shall we say.

But even in these many fan-made "canons", I've noticed that contradictory sources generally don't mix all that well. More often than not, people will side with "source A" and ignore "source B" (either altogether, or at least when it contradicts "source A"). That, or they'll go to great lengths in order to explain how they're actually (somewhat) compatible (in a way), if you think (way too much) about it.

Then again, maybe you're just confusing "official" and "canonical"?

There's no reason to believe the box and articles are all just mistakes.

The fact the name "Morris" was, I believe, never mentioned in Japanese material (but feel free to prove me wrong about that) is a good enough reason to doubt the accuracy of these sources.

Contrary to what you believe, 88, we Americans are not idiots.

And contrary to what you're apparently claiming, KW, I've never said anything to that effect. 88.161.129.43 (talk) 23:16, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

KW? 88, the only sockpuppet here is you, and I'm sick of putting up with your harassment. You don't know a damn thing. Anime and manga are both canon. That's just a fact. You can't deny things because you don't want to believe them. For goodness sake, grow up already!Fragments of Jade (talk) 00:18, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

the only sockpuppet here is you

All right. Who's my "puppet master," then? Go ahead and report me.

You don't know a damn thing. Anime and manga are both canon.

I know there are more than 50 million inhabitants in your country, I know who Wagner is, and I know "canon" is generally fan-made and subjective, when it comes to manga/anime.

Here, we're talking about applying the same kind of criterias that's being used to determine what is canon in the Star Trek franchise, and that would mean ignoring anything that's not mentioned in-game. Is the last name "Morris" mentioned in-game? 88.161.129.43 (talk) 07:49, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

You're just speaking nonsense now-you don't even make any sense. And it's creepy that you seem to be stalking me-seriously creepy. It's bad enough you follow me to other articles where I post, but now you're addressing me by some strange, probably offensive abbreviation, and talking about Wagner? I never discussed Wagner on wiki, so it's really creepy that you're apparently following me to other places online somehow. You really need to get a new hobby.Fragments of Jade (talk) 08:34, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

'Looks like you know what I'm talking about... Which is funny, because the KW who didn't know much about Wagner lives in the same area as 76.120.173.40 and 24.3.180.166, and you claim you don't. So I guess that's just another weird coincidence, huh?

Now, how about answering my question? Is the last name "Morris" mentioned in-game? 88.161.129.43 (talk) 08:55, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

What are you, some kind of psycho? You're stalking four people now? Me, those two IPs, and this "KW"? Seriously, that is freakin' messed up. And I happen to know quite a bit about Wagner, because I'm a big fan of his work. But why the heck should you even know that? And why would you want to? And why would you want to know that some "KW" doesn't know about him or that they live near those two people? It's so beyond creepy. First, whoever this person is, they've got nothing to do with the topic at hand. Second, why are you revealing to us that you're stalking them to the extent that you know their lack of knowledge in a topic and where they live? It just screams "psychotic nutcase". You really need to get some help.Fragments of Jade (talk) 10:11, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

whoever this person is

That would be you. Again.

Is the last name "Morris" mentioned in-game? 88.161.129.43 (talk) 10:13, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

• That's enough FoJ (and 88). Playing the "you're a sockpuppet" game isn't get anyone anywhere, it's simply pissing each other off. Neither is calling each other names. Everyone here needs to act a little like a lawyer right now - with some decorum, and with a logical case. From what I see, a lot of verified proof has been included above with reasoning why "Morris" should not be included. What's missing is real, verifiable proof of why it should does not exist. A game box is not proof, because even Konami has not backed up that it was right - the magical e-mail ostensibly from Konami US has never been posted in it entirety, so even that little smidgen of proof doesn't exist right now. FoJ, please start posting your proof - everyone else has made a case against "Morris" - remember, when I entered this fray, I was on the "keep some reference to Morris" side, and you're letting me down! BMW(drive) 10:25, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Get help. Seriously. I don't what is mentally wrong with you, but you better get help soon. I have no connection to this person. Your real-life issues don't belong here and have nothing to do with the issue at hand. I doubt this person even really exists, and if they do, you need to quit stalking them. You just invented a person out of nowhere, simply so you could try and discredit me. I looked all over Wiki, and I found not evidence of any user named "KW", not even on the Wagner article. I don't know why you made this person up, but it's not making you look anymore credible, just seriously disturbed. As for you Bwilkins, you need to just stay out of this, because I'm fairly certain you're a sock too. You only showed up when I began posting proof, then promptly denied it's existence and made accusations about me. Even now, when user 88 has shown us all just how depraved and creepy she is, neglecting the topic to spout jibberish and invent people, you still try and blame me. I posted plenty of proof. You all have yet to post any. I'm sick of posting proof that you guys ignored or try and say is not able to be accepted. It doesn't get much more canon than official articles and the box. Even the email says it was her name, and it was posted in it's entirety. If you think I'm posting my IP so little miss psycho up there can figure out where I live, you've got another thing coming. Post some proof of your own or both of you go stalk someone else.Fragments of Jade (talk) 10:32, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Is the last name "Morris" mentioned in-game? 88.161.129.43 (talk) 10:39, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Get help.Fragments of Jade (talk) 10:42, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

I'll take that as a "no." 88.161.129.43 (talk) 10:43, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

You're just saying that because you're out of ideas. Your little psycho-trip was a dud, as were all your other claims. It doesn't have to be featured in the game to be canon. Characters' heights and ages are rarely featured in the games, but that doesn't mean they are not canon. Why don't you prove her name is just Heather? Why don't you prove how a teenage girl can get by in life with no last name? Why don't you prove Konami US made a mistake on the box and all the articles? You can't.Fragments of Jade (talk) 10:54, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

You're just saying that because you're out of ideas.

I'm saying that because you're not answering the question. It's simple enough.

Your little psycho-trip was a dud

Based on your reaction, I wouldn't say that.

Characters' heights and ages are rarely featured in the games, but that doesn't mean they are not canon.

Going by the definition of "canon" we're using here, it would, actually.

Why don't you prove her name is just Heather?

According to Japanese material, it is. Conflicting sources, hence this "discussion." Thank you for keeping track.

Why don't you prove how a teenage girl can get by in life with no last name?

I won't explain that a third time, Jade... 88.161.129.43 (talk) 11:02, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

---

• I am actually going to suggest that the two of you just ignore each other right now, as this argument is once again becoming circular, and becoming simply a fling-fest. Post your proof, and nothing else. FoJ, by refusing to post proof on this page, and doing a lot of name-calling, you seem to be hoping that your point of view will win by simple confusion - it can't without valid proof. This page is where you put your proof, whether you've posted it somewhere else or not. You also need to better understand canon. Let me give you an example based on your argument: let's say the box says "she's a 5'2" girl", yet you see a picture of her driver's licence in the game that say she's 5'3", guess how tall she is according to CANON?? (Of course, if she had a picture of a driver's licence in the game, this argument would be moot :-) ). Right now, as a neutral observer, "no Morris" is winning - hands down. Don't let me down FoJ, post your proof. If you don't want to post the entire e-mail headers for security reasons, I offerred to give you an e-mail address of someone in the computer security field. Don't forget though Jade, your IP address is always visible on the web - always. There are people at Wikipedia who have the rights to check your IP address as we speak (and since I believe there is a sockpuppet case against you right now, it's probaly being done). Security does not exist on the internet because you advertise your address on every single website you visit. This is not a threat, it's simply a reality that 99% of people fail to understand. BMW(drive) 11:14, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Let me give you an example based on your argument: let's say the box says "she's a 5'2" girl", yet you see a picture of her driver's licence in the game that say she's 5'3", guess how tall she is according to CANON??

To be fair, your example is about a clear contradiction, whereas Heather simply being called "Heather" in-game doesn't necessarily contradict her being named "Heather Morris" according to the box...

How does that Star Trek canon work, exactly? Do they simply ignore what's not in the show itself, contradictory or not? 88.161.129.43 (talk) 12:06, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

88, again, you have said nothing at all useful or accurate, and are still acting creepy. Bwilkins, I have already posted my proof. I will not keep doing it so you guys can ignore it or try and say it's a mistake or not acceptable. Your example doesn't work. If the two heights contradict eachother, neither would be more accurate than the other-both could be considered canon. I've got artbooks that even have contradicting height information for characters. But this case is different. Because there ARE things saying her name is Morris, including an email, articles, and the game box. But you have found nothing to contradict that being her name. Things saying "Heather" alone are not enough. Most of the sites don't even list any of the characters' last names. And since her last name is an alias, it is more than possible it was kept out on purpose. I've seen some scans of Japanese guidebooks for games where the main characters have aliases, and those are almost always absent. I've posted more than the necessary proof to support "Heather Morris". Now it's your turn to do the same.Fragments of Jade (talk) 11:28, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

FOJ, ignore 88 already, would you please. I have read this whole page - your proof does not exist on it, only discussions about it. Post it here, or it doesn't exist. What do you think the mediation is for? You still have no grasp of what canon is, based on your discussion - I can't make it any clearer. Nobody has said that "Morris" cannot exist as a footnote in history .. after all, that's all it is - it makes NO difference to the game as a whole. BMW(drive) 11:57, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

you have found nothing to contradict that being her name. Things saying "Heather" alone are not enough.

It is, when the full names of the other characters are listed in the same context.

since her last name is an alias, it is more than possible it was kept out on purpose.

How does that even make sense? I mean... If the whole thing is an alias anyway, what would that "purpose" be?

I've seen some scans of Japanese guidebooks for games where the main characters have aliases, and those are almost always absent.

Not that again...

It's just like that thing about the US boxes always listing the full names of the main characters... When I pointed that out, that "rule" was changed to "er... I said I was only talking about horror games!" (<- not true). And when I pointed that out, you then claimed that you only said it was almost always like that (<- not true either), that they wanted to conceal Claire's last name (that was obviously a very well-kept secret at the time of the release of the Dreamcast version... as a matter of fact, we already knew about it before the original PlayStation release, but hey) and that "logically" meant they also had to omit Leon's (hey, by that same logic, why am I seeing Douglas and Claudia's last names, here?).

It would be nice if you stopped doing that. 88.161.129.43 (talk) 12:06, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

It would be nice if you stopped doing a lot of things, but you don't. They would keep the first name because it's the name she goes by in the game. It's not something they can just drop. You haven't said anything else even worth addressing. As for the Star Trek canon, that is a very different case. The fans help make up the canon, because that is how the creators want it. They are always adding fan stories to their canon, from what I have heard. My proof was already posted, and I will not go through posting it all over again, just to have it ignored, labelled as unacceptable, and so on. By the standars of Wiki, I provided more than enough necessary proof. This would not still be going on, had it not been for the unfortunate fact that "Heather Morris" is also the name of the voice actor. No matter what says that is the characters full name, all they have to do is keep claiming it's an error that mixed up the heroine's name with that of the woman who voice her, even though everyone knows the creators named her after said woman.Fragments of Jade (talk) 19:51, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

They would keep the first name because it's the name she goes by in the game. It's not something they can just drop.

I didn't ask why they would keep the fake first name, I asked why they would omit the (probably fake) last name. You said that "it is more than possible that it was kept out on purpose." What would that "purpose" be?

You haven't said anything else even worth addressing.

Nice.

They are always adding fan stories to their canon, from what I have heard.

You've heard strange things.

By the standars of Wiki, I provided more than enough necessary proof.

Nobody's saying that the US box doesn't say that her name is "Heather Morris." But we have conflicting sources, meaning that the "Morris" last name could be a mistake. You haven't proven that it wasn't a mistake (and we haven't proven that it was either, if that makes you feel better).

everyone knows the creators named her after said woman.

That doesn't mean they gave her the voice actress' full name.

They also said they named Vincent after Vincent Gallo, and that obviously doesn't mean we should go and edit the character's name into "Vincent Gallo."

That point is still moot, no matter how many times you regurgitate it. 88.161.129.43 (talk) 20:21, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Twisted my words around and playing games will get you nowhere. You clearly know nothing about Star Trek, so again, you've no right to go making calls about it. I already stated why they would drop the fake last name-it's an alias. And unliked "Vincent Gallo", there are articles and the box and an email and a video that support "Heather Morris". That is more than enough proof, unless you can post something that says it's all a mistake, which seems highly unlikely.Fragments of Jade (talk) 20:31, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Twisted my words around and playing games will get you nowhere.

I could say the same thing about your gratuitous accusations. How did I "twist your words", exactly? I guess we'll never know, as usual.

You clearly know nothing about Star Trek, so again, you've no right to go making calls about it.

I know very little about Star Trek and its canon, indeed (I admitted as much when I asked how it worked exactly), so I'm going from what I'm reading here.

When the moderator proposed to use the same kind of "rule of thumb" to handle the debate at hand, I assumed that meant the Star Trek canon simply ignored what's not in the show itself. But if it turns out it's only ignoring official information that's in contradiction with the show, I don't see how that could help with the "Heather" / "Heather Morris" situation, as the box calling the character "Heather Morris" wouldn't necessarily contradict the game calling her simply "Heather."

I already stated why they would drop the fake last name-it's an alias.

That's hardly an explanation. Who said that fake last names are to be omitted in cases like this? Is that another of your "rules"?

unliked "Vincent Gallo", there are articles and the box and an email and a video that support "Heather Morris".

Well, the character being called "Heather Morris" somewhere is another argument altogether, now, isn't it? I was saying (again) that the "they named her after the voice actress!" argument is absolutely useless, here. They could say that if she was named "Heather Morris," they could say that if she was called "Heather Mason", they could say that if she was just "Heather." That particular argument is moot. So please get it out of your system already.

So. You're saying that the box, an email and a video support "Heather Morris."

The US box does, indeed.

You claim your e-mail does as well. But you won't post the headers (and I believe you simply forged the thing, personally, for reasons I stated earlier), and e-mails apparently aren't "fair game" anyway, on Wikipedia.

The video you mentioned doesn't support the name "Heather Morris."

So there's still the US box. But that doesn't change the fact we have contradicting sources. So somebody's wrong. Who would that be? I have my idea, but I don't believe I can prove it. Can you? 88.161.129.43 (talk) 21:05, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Just out of curiousity, do we still have hope for peace here, or are we going to Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee soon? --Lenin and McCarthy | (Complain here) 20:48, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm trying to behave, but I can't say I have any hope of a peaceful resolution. 88.161.129.43 (talk) 21:05, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

It is doubtful there will be peace, especially since 88 keeps stalking people and making attempts to get my IP address. Also, there is the fact that the other side refuses to listen to reason. Stating every bit of proof is unacceptable or a mistake is really a leap, and they are unwilling to accept the compromise I suggested, despite they themselves saying details belong on the character page and the name is unimportant.Fragments of Jade (talk) 20:52, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

88 keeps stalking people and making attempts to get my IP address.

I'm trying to prove you're a sock puppet. 88.161.129.43 (talk) 21:05, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Oh, get real. Just like you're trying to prove this KW is a puppet, despite no user by that name existing here? And you were just trying to pretend they were a puppet by tracking down private information about them, since you claim to know where they live and things they know and don't know. And you've already created the check, so going around and trying to coerce the mods you know will lie on your behalf to give you my personal information is wrong and not to mention against the rules. Instead of relying to making accusations, why don't you try actually posting proof for once.Fragments of Jade (talk) 21:21, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

trying to coerce the mods you know will lie

"Get real," indeed...

'Care to reply about the topic at hand? 88.161.129.43 (talk) 21:28, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

I've already replied, before you interrupted yet again, trying to start trouble and twist facts.Fragments of Jade (talk) 21:41, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

I was talking about my 21:05 comments. The ones that start with "I could say the same thing about your gratuitous accusations." 88.161.129.43 (talk) 21:44, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Your outrageous accusations are hardly worth replying to and have nothing to do with the topic at hand.Fragments of Jade (talk) 22:07, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

...and your equally outrageous assertion that you no longer need to post proof? Come on FoJ, throw me a bone here ... let me help. That, or it appears the name "Morris" is about to get Flushed Away BMW(drive) 23:13, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Would you go away already? Neither of you are helping things. Your little "game" or pretending the proof I posted doesn't exist is not funny, just rude and annoying. YOU guys post proof.Fragments of Jade (talk) 23:19, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

• All I need to do is read this entire page. On it, I see referenced proof with independent sources. ALL of that proof says "no" to Morris. You MUST post your proof on THIS page. It's not going to magically appear on its own. You're old enough to realize that you have to give proper reasoning for things. If you think that "because I posted it months ago" counts, it doesn't ... THIS is your very own court case ... this is where you prove to people that you're right. If you fail to provide evidence, you're going to fail. For God's sake kid, please start to understand this! BMW(drive) 23:24, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Enough. Did you not hear me? I'm not playing your games anymore. The proof supporting "Morris" has been posted. Pretending you don't see it won't make it go away. Nor will trying to get rid of me by making accusations. And now you claim to know my age too? I know you're just a sock for 88 or vice versa, but two creepy people are not better than one. Go away if you are not going to do anything but try to fuel an argument.Fragments of Jade (talk) 23:40, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

The proof supporting "Morris" has been posted.

Yes, and the evidence supporting "Heather" with no specific last name has been posted as well. So someone's wrong. I sure can't think of a way to prove the US box (on one hand) or the Japanese material (on the other hand) to be wrong. Can you? That's the kind of proof we'd need, now.

And now you claim to know my age too?

21 in September? 88.161.129.43 (talk) 23:56, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Not even close, and I wasn't talking to you. My birthday was last month, and as for my age, like heck I'm gonna tell you. And no proof has been posted on your behalf. All you have done is post proof that her first name is "Heather", which we all already know and agree on.Fragments of Jade (talk) 00:01, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Not even close

Well, I wasn't exactly expecting a confirmation from you anyway...

I wasn't talking to you.

Er... You just said "I know you're just a sock for 88 or vice versa."

All you have done is post proof that her first name is "Heather"

The other characters have their full names listed. But you already know that... 88.161.129.43 (talk) 00:07, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Still acting as creepy as ever. So, you admit that you two are the same person? And again, the fact that the other characters have their full names listed while she does not means nothing. How do you know that's not the error?Fragments of Jade (talk) 00:20, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

So, you admit that you two are the same person?

Ermmmm no? I just think you should keep track of your baseless accusations. When you completely forget about them in the space of 21 minutes, your bad faith becomes even more painfully obvious than usual.

the fact that the other characters have their full names listed while she does not means nothing. How do you know that's not the error?

Oh, it does imply something. Something you'd rather ignore, but still. And how do you know the "Heather Morris" on the back on the US box isn't the error?

Like I said, conflicting sources, no way to tell which one is wrong, etc. 88.161.129.43 (talk) 00:26, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Because it's also stated in an article-more than one, actually,-and it was even stated by an official from Konami US. And still, your evidence only shows her name is "Heather". We already knew that much.Fragments of Jade (talk) 00:35, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

No point in arguing anymore guys. The article reflects the evidence. --Thaddius (talk) 11:07, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

• I'm a SockPuppet of someone? *snickering loudly* All it takes is a quick glance at both my writing style, and my edit history across the range of everything from Hockey, Islands of Trinidad and Tobago to the Music of Newfoundland and Labrador, and even monitoring recent changes to Wikipedia to know that I'm nobody's sock. But please, if you would like to open a case calling me a sock puppet, do so. Since you have an open SockPuppet case against you, you are already aware of the process. Please keep me up to date on that as you move forward. You're purposely trying to confuse the situation, call people names, level baseless accusations instead of dealing with the subject at hand. Please post the entire headers of your e-mail (feel free to remove your personal e-mail address from it, and blank out the first two octets of your IP address [that means if your personal IP address is 11.22.33.44 you would post it as x.x.33.44 - but DO NOT DO THIS with the IP address of the servers or hosts]). If you're unwilling to post it, then any discussion or use of that e-mail as some form of proof is invalid - you have to be able to PROVIDE the evidence upon which you're building your case. BMW(drive) 11:16, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Okay, since the current mediators seem absent, I'll be joining as a mediator. Now, in my view, here are the issues we need to decide, and my view on some them (yes, I know the "issues to decide" part will be review, but I'm hoping directly stating them will help, and I'd like to imagine that my comments will, too):

1. Is there sufficient canonical evidence to confirm that Heather's last name is, in fact, Morris? As far as I know, spin-off media (in this case, the anime and manga) are not traditionally considered canonical. As for the box, it was not written by the original storywriters (presumably), and may not reflect their intent. However, the name on the box is certainly notable.

2. If Heather's last name, is, in fact, Morris, is it necessary for the page name to reflect that? I don't think so. For example, look at Sophitia—her last name is known, but it is not in the article title.

3. Should information regarding her name be included in the article? Definitely. Her potential last names should be noted. -Link (talk) 12:17, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Hi Link. As for #1, please see the Sources section above. Unless new evidence can be added there, the only argument for the Morris name appears to be the box. If that's the case, I agree with Launchpad_72's conclusion that the box shouldn't be considered canon (and therefore is not noteworthy), so it should not be listed on the page. And as for #3, it seems like a note might be relevant on a page about this game or this character specifically, but the page in question is about a series of games of which this character is only one of very many. As I am sure you can guess from reading this page, we have some strong opinions present but very little actual hard evidence to support "Morris" or any other last name. --waka (talk) 14:12, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

• Might I personally add, Link, that my original suggestion on the Silent Hill talk page was to include an "aka table", that would list characters and their other possible names, plus the episodes they appeared in (such as the movie). This was long before the amount of research I have done into whether Heather "Morris" exists. She is, of course, the actress who voiced the character of Heather. BMW(drive) 14:26, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Though it may be hard to see through all the other side's lies, accusations, and name-calling-as well as sarcasm and rudeness,-there is a lot to support the name "Heather Morris". Aside from the box, we also have an article where an official from Konami US states this as her name. And quite a few other articles do as well. This was confirmed by them via email as well, though they were only able to state that it was indeed her last name for all English releases. Even the creators have stated in various places and official materials that the character was named after her voice actor, who is, in fact, "Heather Morris". The other side here has posted nothing of any real value, merely stuff that states her first name, which we all already know and is not being debated. And they try to discredit all my evidence by insisting it's all just some big mistake, though there's nothing at all to support that. I've offered many compromises, but they were willing to accept none of them, and in fact just ignored them, instead preferring to resort to stalking me and trying to find out my personal information, which thankfully seems to have failed, and just being generally rude and uncivil.Fragments of Jade (talk) 14:56, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

IIRC, the statement was "...she was named Heather, after Heather Morris the voice actress...". Nobody has stalked you, in fact I doubt that anyone gives two warm, steaming piles from the back end of my dog who you REALLY are. All that people want is the opposite of WP:OR - they want visible, sourced evidentiary proof. You continue to FAIL to the entire e-mail into evidence, so stop referring to it until you do, please. I hope the desciption above was not insulting or rude, it was merely the simple fact that nobody cares who you are. BMW(drive) 15:06, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Kay, guys, we don't need this circular argument - it's completely fruitless. The article is fine the way it is with no WP:OR, alright? Just don't bother posting anything here anymore. It's not going to go anywhere. --Thaddius (talk) 15:29, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

This is exactly the kind of thing I'm talking about. Socks and liars like Bwilkins, and people who think they can just ignore facts. You have no right to say the article is fine the way it is, simply because you got away with making it the way you want, despite the original way being properly cited. You guys need to grow up and stop resorting to such inappropriate and childish methods.Fragments of Jade (talk) 15:46, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

You have chosen to ignore all posts from: Fragments of Jade.

· View this post · Un-ignore Fragments of Jade Wow, what a handy tool BMW(drive) 16:19, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

The article already gives a footnote explaining the last name—personally, I think that is sufficient. However, Jade, can you GIVE us an article, from KONAMI, or tell us where we can find one, that CLEARLY states that her full name is Heather Morris? Otherwise, I would settle for the footnote mention. Note, also, that just because the link is Heather (Silent Hill) does not necessarily mean that that is her full name—that is the realm of the Heather article itself.-Link (talk) 16:34, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Jade came up with this a while ago. It's a press release with "Wilson Cheng, Product Manager at Konami of America, Inc." calling the main character "Heather Morris."

Of course, that still doesn't change the fact we have conflicting sources... Japanese material simply call her "Heather" even when one would expect a last name to be present considering the context (all other characters having their full names listed), and that e-mail from Konami Europe according to which it's "Heather Mason." So somebody is wrong, and I can't think of any way to tell who's mistaken exactly. I'd be inclined to favor the Japanese material, considering the origins of the game, but that's just me. We can't even use the "this is the English Wikipedia!" card, as we have no evidence of the character being called "Heather Morris" in the UK, or "Heather Mason" in the States.

When in doubt like that, I think it only makes sense to simply go with "Heather," (at least, we know that's correct... besides, there's no last name in the game itself anyway) and add a footnote about the US box and the US press release referring to her as "Heather Morris," preferably in the character's own article (or in the Silent Hill 3 article if she doesn't have one?). I don't believe we can add a mention about "Heather Mason," as e-mails count as "original research," right? 88.161.129.43 (talk) 16:59, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Um, that does not call the character "Heather Morris". Note where the quotation marks are in that press release: "Silent Hill 3 continues the series' thrilling psychological journey with the introduction of Heather Morris," That could technically mean that he continued "the introduction of Heather Morris as the voice of..." or "Heather Morris in the role of...". The next part of the quotation is obviously not a continuation of the same sentence ""Gamers will be amazed as they unravel the mystery that links her to the haunted town of Silent Hill." Therefore, we have two separate thoughts put together, and perhaps mistakenly was read out of context (anybody who has studied journalism will know this). You must then continue with the rest of the article where "Claudia" and "Douglas" are mentioned in first name only. Press releases use a common thread - and a common thread in this one is the use of first names for characters. BMW(drive) 17:13, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Note where the quotation marks are in that press release: "Silent Hill 3 continues the series' thrilling psychological journey with the introduction of Heather Morris," That could technically mean that he continued "the introduction of Heather Morris as the voice of..." or "Heather Morris in the role of...".

Are you serious about that? ^^;

I mean... Technically, I guess it's possible they're referring to the voice actress, but she wasn't exactly famous (I believe?), and I've never seen Konami introduce a new Silent Hill game by putting the main voice actor/actress in the spotlight like that... nor would I expect them to.

Also, I'm not sure how you can tell that the next part of the quotation is "obviously" not a continuation of the same sentence. It's entirely possible, yes, but "obviously not"? 88.161.129.43 (talk) 17:22, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Grammatically, the two cannot be directly linked as they are separate thoughts. Would the following sentence make any sense: "Silent Hill 3 continues the series' thrilling psychological journey with the introduction of Heather Morris, Gamers will be amazed as they unravel the mystery that links her to the haunted town of Silent Hill." No. You would need (as a minimum) a period between "Heather Morris" and "Gamers will", which shows they were not part of the same train of thought. Something else came after the words "Heather Morris".

For those not sure if the last name is Canonical - have a look through this transcript: Transcript of Silent Hill 3 - interestingly, the author calls her "Heather Mason", although this is not citeable - the name "Morris" does not exist in the entire gameplay. In fact, none of the walkthroughs or FAQ's listed here List of FAQ's and Walkthroughs from IGN mention the name "Morris". Download the PC manual for the game here Replacement Docs and the only mention of "Morris" is during the cast and credits.

Again, I have never been against stating that she may on the box be mistakenly named "Heather Morris", if this is indeed true, and have recommended a very very small statement to that effect since I came across this argument. BMW(drive) 17:43, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

However, note what the next statement after "introduction of Heather Morris": "gamers will be amazed as they unravel the mystery that links her to the haunted town of Silent Hill." I'm going to assume that the voice actress does not have any connections (beyond the voice acting) to Silent Hill. So the statement probably does refer to Heather the character. However, I don't think that speculation about Heather's last name deserves anything beyond the footnote mention, at least when it comes to the main Silent Hill article. In the SH3 and Heather articles, there definitely is, so why not just put it there?-Link (talk) 17:51, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Well, yeah, I think it goes without saying that you'd need a period in between these two parts, but I see no reason to assume there's something more that's missing and actually changes the meaning of the "Heather Morris" in the first part. Like I said, I think it would be extremely weird of them to announce the game by saying it introduces a voice actress... I think things are just as they look: the guy called the character "Heather Morris." Not that it really changes anything, in my opinion (we already had the US box)... 88.161.129.43 (talk) 18:53, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Could someone favoring Morris tell me why the footnote is not enough? If necessary, we can expand the footnote to reflect the other sources supporting "Morris".-Link (talk) 19:10, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Because it's ridiculous. There's so much stating her name is "Heather Morris", and if these people truly think her last name is not important, then why are they so fiercely against it being used alone in the article, with details on the character's page about the debate? If you look at it, there is more evidence supporting "Heather Morris", and their evidence just states "Heather" is her first name, which we knew.Fragments of Jade (talk) 20:19, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

All the evidence in favor of "Heather Morris" comes from Konami of America and contradicts Japanese material. It could very well be wrong (it certainly doesn't take a genius to figure how they could get that particular detail wrong, considering the voice actress' name). And the name "Morris" isn't anywhere to be found in the game itself.

The sensible solution would evidently be to simply call the character "Heather" in the article, and mention the US oddity as a footnote. Not that I would expect you to admit that. 88.161.129.43 (talk) 20:40, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

What I would sugget to you all is the leave the Silent Hill page as it is, with the footnote, and create a section discussing the name controversy on the Heather (Silent Hill) page. And Jade, the problem is not that you don't have evidence, but that the others do not think that the evidence is suffucient.-Link (talk) 20:48, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Quite frankly, who cares what they think? They refuse to accept the truth. You could have an article with the Japanese creators of the original character stating her name is "Heather Morris", and they would claim it's a translation error. It doesn't matter if they want to accept it. The article is official, and there is no reason to believe it's just some error, and it's far from the only one that calls her by that name. There is no reason to omit the name, especially if they think it's so unimportant.Fragments of Jade (talk) 23:39, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

First of all, by saying "who cares what they think," you're doing exactly what you're accusing them of. Second of all, there is a possibility that "Heather Morris" is, in fact, wrong, though I'm not saying it definitely is. If it IS wrong, then if we put it up, we would be in error. If we don't put it up, then we are not in error, and since the name is discussed in other articles, we are not omitting information.-Link (talk) 00:03, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

You could have an article with the Japanese creators of the original character stating her name is "Heather Morris", and they would claim it's a translation error.

Try me. Besides, I understand Japanese, so I could simply check the original text.

there is no reason to believe it's just some error

Wrong. 88.161.129.43 (talk) 00:13, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Link, there is no proof that it is wrong. They've provided nothing at all to prove her last name is anything but "Morris". I've go the US box, an email, and various articles that state her name is "Heather Morris". That's more than enough citation, and the issue never should have come under fire in the first place.Fragments of Jade (talk) 04:16, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Might I direct you to the list of sources? --Thaddius (talk) 11:03, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

there is no proof that it is wrong.

Indeed. But there are reasons to think it might very well be. It's called "doubt." You might have heard of the concept. 88.161.129.43 (talk) 11:56, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

FoJ, you continue to mention an e-mail that you continue to fail to properly post (with all headers) that would verify its veracity. Stop mentioning it until you do. All you have is a Box that only exists in the US so it cannot count in Wikipedia due to NPOV, and an article that has already been given reasons for it not being citeable. BMW(drive) 11:15, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

• And "no proof that it is wrong"? Um, the original Japanese release, the European release - everything except the US Box and related marketing proves that Morris is not her name. Morris is a footnote, and compared to global warming, $150/barrel oil, and the rise of autism spectrum disorders in North America - the name Morris" is less than a footnote in the annals of history. BMW(drive) 12:10, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

How 'bout we skip the controversy and just refer to her by her scientific name, Heatherus silenthillus? Just a little WIkipedia humor there, folks. Seriously, the last name, whether it is known or not, doesn't really need to be in the Silent Hill article, just in the Silent Hill 3 article and the Heather (Silent Hill) article.-Link (talk) 12:34, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

It is, after all, already mentioned in the Heather Morris article about the actress :-) BMW(drive) 12:40, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

On that note, I'd just like to point out that for the last four years or so, that section has referred to that character as "Heather", sans footnote. It's only very recently that this controversy about inserting her last name has appeared. As I said before, I don't think her last name is relevant to anything. --waka (talk) 14:22, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

All right, I want all the involved parties to come up with a compromise (or second another party's compromise) that will make them happy, or at least satisfied. We seem to focused on who gets to be happy and who doesn't; let's see if we can make everyone happy, mmkay?-Link (talk) 19:43, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

I;m afraid to say I cannot support just calling her "Heather Morris" everywhere if it's not actually used in the game. --Lenin and McCarthy | (Complain here) 19:47, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

For the record, I am still here. I was gone for 2 days. I appreciate the concern, Link, but I don't think you are suggesting anything particularly helpful. Granted, neither have I, but I am currently plotting a solution. Bear with me, guys. --The Prophet Wizard of the Crayon Cake 20:19, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

More needless sarcasm and rudeness. as usual. Link, a compromise is no good with these people. There's more than enough evidence stating her name is "Heather Morris". The fact that they have some stuff that neglects to mention her last name is hardly proof of anything. Let's see some solid proof-an article saying it was a translation error or something. Otherwise, you've got nothing. It could easily be that the error is with the stuff that neglects to mention her last name. Perhaps the European version made the mistake of assuming it was an error on the US' part or thought it was just her voice actor and left it out for that reason. You've got no proof to support "Heather Morris" is a mistake, or that her first name alone was what her creator's meant when they said they were naming her after her voice actress. I've already stated my idea for a compromise-have "Heather Morris" on the Silent Hill series page, then have a section about the name debate on her character page. They've already got their way with that page, as her name is just listed as "Heather" on it.Fragments of Jade (talk) 20:24, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Your "compromise" has two flaws:

1. The main page should only use the most common names of the characters, and it should be pretty clear by now that her most commonly used name is just plain "Heather"
2. There is no longer a page for Heather - it redirects to Alessa Gillespie --Lenin and McCarthy | (Complain here) 21:01, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

• The other flaw with the "compromise" is that a) FoJ doesn't seem to understand that compromise is a give and take from both sides, b) 95% of the documentation in the world does not list "Morris", and c) the concept of Burden of proof seems to elude FoJ. I blame it on age. "Just because my 5% of sources say one thing, that makes it true". *sigh* Oh, to be that young again.... Oh, and last time I checked the Heather Morris article, it still mentioned what FoJ keeps arguing about. That was a compromise. BMW(drive) 21:33, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

It could easily be that the error is with the stuff that neglects to mention her last name.

Just like it could easily be that Konami of America is wrong about the last name.

If anything, I'd put more trust in Konami Japan, seeing as they're the ones who made the game, and Konami of America is the only branch that came up with the "Morris" last name... but hey, that's just me and you don't have to agree.

You've got no proof to support "Heather Morris" is a mistake

And you've got no proof to support the idea that the Japanese material chose to omit the last name "Morris" (for whatever reason) despite listing the other characters' full names in the same context.

So. How do we solve that? By using "Heather Morris," a full name that could be wrong and isn't even anywhere to be found in the game itself? Or by using "Heather," a first name that we know to be correct anyway?

That shouldn't be a though choice, really, and yet... here you are. 88.161.129.43 (talk) 21:42, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

This is the English Wiki, and her name is definately "Heather Morris" in the english versions.Fragments of Jade (talk) 06:55, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

You have still to establish that her name is "Heather Morris" in the UK version, Jade... 88.161.129.43 (talk) 07:21, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

As I pointed out, GameTap (an english, indeed American source) doesn't use that name either --Lenin and McCarthy | (Complain here) 07:00, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

So? It's hardly the most reliable source.Fragments of Jade (talk) 07:12, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

"Morris" only exists on the outside of the US box, not the UK box. This is the English Wikipedia, not the US Wikipedia. The name "Morris", unless we're talking about the actress, is and gets no more than a footnote mention. BMW(drive) 09:24, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

You guys need to start posting some actual proof, if you're so convinced it's just some mistake. Every other lead character in the series has a first and last name, and given her circumstances as a modern teenaged high school girl, we know she had to have had one. The fact that Harry kept his first name also supports he would have changed his last one. There's also all the proof I've posted. Stop posting proof her first name is "Heather" and give proof that actually supports your claims.Fragments of Jade (talk) 19:57, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Jade, there is a lot of stuff posted right up at the top of this page, under Sources. At the moment, that section lists the most proof under the section supporting "Heather" with no last name. There are a few links under the proof section for "Morris". Please feel free to add more--right now that section is pretty underwhelming. --waka (talk) 20:54, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Every other lead character in the series has a first and last name, and given her circumstances as a modern teenaged high school girl, we know she had to have had one

The "just Heather" argument isn't that she doesn't have a last name in-universe, Jade. Just that Konami didn't tell us what that last name was (and that Konami of America's "Morris" was just a mistake). You'd know that already if you were paying attention. Or maybe you do know that and you're just trolling?

(on a completely unrelated note, I don't believe Heather is in high school) 88.161.129.43 (talk) 21:57, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Again, stuff saying her name is "Heather" proves nothing. We know that's her first name.Fragments of Jade (talk) 06:16, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

As you've been told many times already, it's a matter of context. The last name "Morris" isn't listed even when one would expect it to be, seeing as all the other characters' full names are given.

In fact, as far as I can tell, the last name "Morris" is never listed at all on Japanese material. Even world-wide, Konami of America appears to be the only branch that ever used that last name. Weird.

But you know all that already... 88.161.129.43 (talk) 09:32, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

The name "Cheryl Mason" never appears in any material, either. Doesn't mean that's still not her real name.Fragments of Jade (talk) 20:59, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Well, yeah, it's not like those pages have ever been posted here before, huh? 88.161.129.43 (talk) 21:10, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Finishing This Off Now

Ok, it has been determined that during GAMEPLAY the name "Morris" does not exist. Ever. As such, during an article on the GAME called Silent Hill 3, the name "Morris" has no place, and thus shall not appear. It has already been noted on the page about the actress named "Heather Morris", that the character "Heather" appears to be named "Heather Morris" on some localizations. If it has not already been done, the page about the character, Heather (and her many incarnations) should have a footnote to the same effect. So, FoJ, even though all the proof THAT HAS BEEN POSTED IN THIS MEDIATIONM CASE is really against you, you win...the name is being included. You're the mighty winner. Please, don't gloat too much because it doesn't become you. Now, let's move on to something that is actually important. THE END. Anyone who feels a need to post after this just doesn't get it. BMW(drive) 21:29, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

I hate to pick at a scab like this, but this was about the main Silent Hill page. --Lenin and McCarthy | (Complain here) 21:37, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Not picking a scab ... Silent Hill 3 is a subsection of the Silent Hill page :-) BMW(drive) 21:54, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Ah --Lenin and McCarthy | (Complain here) 22:07, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Translated Memories will never be an acceptable source. First, who are you to close this discussion? You've not proven anything except her first name, and your attempts to make it seem otherwise are pathetic. Second, there is and will never be a compromise with the footnote, because that is what YOU want, not me.Fragments of Jade (talk) 21:03, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Translated Memories will never be an acceptable source.

Why not? 88.161.129.43 (talk) 00:22, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Actually, I've had some experience with Silent Hill editing, and the issue remains murky. At any rate, it's used in the featured "Silent Hill 4: The Room", whatever take you get on that... --Lenin and McCarthy | (Complain here) 00:26, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

The original guide is edited by "Konami Toy & Hobby Jigyôbu" and contains many comments from the staff of the game. 'Doesn't get much more official than that... 88.161.129.43 (talk) 01:24, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Who am I to close it? I'm a neutral 3rd party who has READ all the evidence listed above. I have READ all of Wikipedia's rules about citeability, NPOV, sockpuppetry, etc. I have studied law and journalism, and understand both. I have watched one party try to ram their POV through, and 100% fail to listen to the other side's story, and ignore other POV's, while the other side gives in to some degree of compromise. I have watched as something THIS MINOR has used up so much energy ... energy that SHOULD have been used in something actually important in life. THAT is who I am, and that it what is done. BMW(drive) 10:40, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

You are NOT a neuteral third party. And everyone knows Lost Memories is full of errors.Fragments of Jade (talk) 20:13, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

You are NOT a neuteral third party.

Why not? Because he disagrees with you?

everyone knows Lost Memories is full of errors.

And yet, both MaryandJames and Corp_Punisher directed you to that (section of a) book. I guess people are just stupid, huh?

Please help us see the light: show us those many errors. 88.161.129.43 (talk) 20:21, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

FoJ, BMW has actually not shown any involvement on any side of the argument. Would you please clarify your claims about him/her?

And Mr. 88...you're not exactly helping close this debate. --Lenin and McCarthy | (Complain here) 20:40, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

88, I don't know what the heck you are even talking about. I'm not even a member of that forum, Again, creepy. And just because a fan thinks Lost Memories is a good source, doesn't mean it is. As you've proven. BMW has been nothing but rude and his behaviour on this talk page as well as other Wiki pages makes it clear he is no neuteral third party.Fragments of Jade (talk) 22:44, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

I don't know what the heck you are even talking about.

Just how dumb do you think I am? Seriously?

You're SyberiaWinx, just like you're 24.3.180.166 and 76.120.173.40 (ah, yes... Thatcher confirmed that you were blocked because of your three edits as Fragments of Jade and your three edits as 76.120.173.40). The whole thing is painfully obvious because you're a sloppy liar. So sloppy that you should seriously consider other, hopefully more honest tactics to convince people in the future.

just because a fan thinks Lost Memories is a good source, doesn't mean it is.

(Two fans, actually. And there would also be me. So that's a crowd of three people already! Actually different people, too!)

By the exact same logic, just because you say that plot guide isn't a good source, that doesn't make it so. Yes, logic can be nasty like that.

I have to say I wonder why exactly you're so quick to ignore what a Japanese branch of Konami is saying in that guide when you're so confident about what Konami of America has to say about Heather's last name... Which is why I asked for some details, some arguments. Well, that would be nice, anyway.

BMW has been nothing but rude

That's bullshit, Jade. Many people have been quite polite with you (that includes BMW), and you didn't exactly return the favor (your reply to BMW). Yet, sometimes, these people were a lot more patient than I would be (for example, BMW, once again...), but you proved that to be pointless (lovely... oh, and you'll note how she removed my own comment... 'guess asking her why she accuses me of racism is "rude," too).

Why so hostile, you may ask... but that wouldn't be wise.

Oh, and there.

But yeah, clearly, you're the victim.

his behaviour on this talk page as well as other Wiki pages makes it clear he is no neuteral third party.

Now I'd really like to know how you can tell that he's not being neutral here based on other Wiki pages. You do understand what "neutral" means, right? 88.161.129.43 (talk) 23:57, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Would someone please just shut this down and ask for formal mediation? --Lenin and McCarthy | (Complain here) 23:11, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Well, hopefully, Thatcher's confirmation about the sock puppetry thing should speed things up... Not the best kind of solution, but is there really an alternative in sight? 88.161.129.43 (talk) 23:57, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

I just wanted to put in my two cents as to why Lost Memories isn't a valid source. I've combated it before and it's because it's a fan translation, something we can't verify is correct. But before Jade gets all excited about all this she should know that e-mails and such don't count as verifiable sources either. --Thaddius (talk) 11:14, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, I completely understand that. Fan translations can be very... messy.

But I understand Japanese and I've read the book, so I think I can say that I consider the book to be a valid source. Now, I can't say much about the fan translation, overall (I have only read a few parts of the whole thing), but the parts relevant to the case at hand were accurately translated (and "translated" is only barely adequate, really, as we're just talking about character names, here ^^;).

Would a scan of the relevant pages from the original book help? I guess I could manage that. I'm not home right now, but I could go there, get the book (as well as other official Japanese material, maybe?) and scan the thing... 88.161.129.43 (talk) 14:52, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

• First, I appreciate the support by many of you ... I have indeed been trying to plant the seeds of consensus, common sense, friendliness (and even introductory law and journalism 101 once or twice). You can see from my Wikipedia Contributions that I have lately been doing a lot of welcoming to newbies - hopefully by giving a new user the tools they need to understand Wikipedia, the type of situation in this mediation will happen less frequently. I even placed one of the most friendly "welcome" templates on FoJ's page (the one with the cookies..see my talk page!) and it was blanked pretty quickly. That really shows that someone has no interest in understanding Wikipedia, and the associated "friendliness" concepts. I even re-did the Heather Morris page, including the tidbit of information that has been the bone of contention - no thanks from FoJ was forthcoming, nor expected. I often do some "new page patrol", which helps keep some of the crap off of Wikipedia, but also allows me to support new articles that appear to have the beginnings of encyclopedic content. I monitor "recent changes" a lot. This allows me to revert a lot of vandalism to the articles that all of us work so hard to create and maintain. I also have created a crapload of stubs for topics related to the Carribean and Newfoundland. Yesterday, I went through the list of "most wanted articles since 2007" and actually created two of those from scratch - both were on topics I had no previous knowledge of. That's what I do on Wikipedia. Asking for proof is not "rude" unless you don't have proof to provide. Being polite is not "rude" unless you have no desire to be polite back. Trying to solve a problem co-operatively is not "rude" unless all you're trying to do is get your own way. An encylopedia (such as Wikipedia) is an adult undertaking - so we all should review our own actions, and consider how "grown up" they've been overall. BMW(drive) 12:13, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

88, you just keep on deluding yourself. So, now, complete strangers on forums who agree that Morris is her last name are all me as well? And Lost Memories is not reliable because it contains well-known errors, which is more than enough reason not to count it as a reliable source. And no one here is "neuteral", not to mention you've all been quite rude. And how you're trying to side-track this discussion yet again by further attacking me and making false accusations is lame. Thatcher may be willing to lie for you, just so you can win, but in the end, it's not truly a victory at all, because you were so afraid of losing, you had to cheat and lie.Fragments of Jade (talk) 22:07, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

88, you just keep on deluding yourself. So, now, complete strangers on forums who agree that Morris is her last name are all me as well?

Well, that one most definitely is.

Lost Memories is not reliable because it contains well-known errors

You mentioned one.

And really, I'm not arguing it's infallible. But it's fairly reliable, in my opinion (as usual, feel free to prove me wrong), and it's definitely a valid source (as official as your US game box, anyway).

making false accusations is lame. Thatcher may be willing to lie for you

That's a nice quote. I'll leave it there for future generations. 88.161.129.43 (talk) 23:29, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Let me put this another way for you FoJ - WP:NAME states that for article titles only the most recognizeable name is to be used. Let's apply that logic here; it has been proven that the vast majority of sources, and the game itself, only use the name "Heather", sothat should be the main name for all contexts which aren't examining the character in great detail. --Lenin and McCarthy | (Complain here) 23:46, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

No, 88, that one most definitely is not. Get yourself some help. And does Thatcher know you're going around putting words in his mouth? I checked his contributions-he hasn't said anything like what you claim. As for Heather's last name, there are more than enough things supporting it, including articles, all of which are perfectly legit. You guys just opt to keep ignoring all the evidence and focus on your own, which proves nothing at all.Fragments of Jade (talk) 18:22, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

No, 88, that one most definitely is not.

Again, I'm afraid I'm not completely stupid, Jade. Anybody can compare the timing of your comments here and on that forum and see what's going on. Anybody can perform a Google search and see how familiar that "SyberiaWinx" sounds (lots of gems in there... [2] [3] [4] [5] [6]). And guess where she lives... Yeah, that's a surprise.

does Thatcher know you're going around putting words in his mouth? I checked his contributions-he hasn't said anything like what you claim.

You know, that claim of mine was also a link. Better luck next time. 88.161.129.43 (talk) 21:23, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Jade, you seem to misunderstand: no one here is ignoring your evidence. --Thaddius (talk) 15:12, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

88, give it up already. You're only making yourself look bad, especially now that you're stalking a fifth person, apparently. Again, just because a person happens to agree with her last name being "Morris", that doesn't make them me. And it's sad that you're so pathetic that you feel the need to hunt down all this personal information. That person is not me, but you still need to get some therapy, and also face the fact that you don't have enough evidence to support anything you claim.Fragments of Jade (talk) 18:46, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

the fact that you don't have enough evidence to support anything you claim.

Er... Jade. There was a lot of circumstantial evidence, and Thatcher just confirmed it. It's over. 88.161.129.43 (talk) 19:08, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

If you twist it enough, anything can become evidence, as you've proven. Thatcher has bent the rules numerous times for your sake, and there is still suspicion you are just a puppet account of his. And yet again, you're sidetracking the discussion, in hopes to get me wrongly banned before anyone points out how your evidence proves nothing. First it was the sock accusations, then accusatinos of being some person not even on this site, then another person not on this site...You need to get yourself some serious help.Fragments of Jade (talk) 19:31, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Thatcher has bent the rules numerous times for your sake

Rrrrrright. 'Not sure why Thatcher would do that for me, but oh well!

So... Show me? Which rules? Any links? Go ahead. If you don't want to clutter this page, there's my talk page.

You sure are quick to accuse people of a lot of things, but it's funny how shy you get when you're asked to provide some evidence, even circumstantial.

there is still suspicion you are just a puppet account of his.

So now I'm a sock puppet of Thatcher? Well, that's new. Quick, file a report!

you're sidetracking the discussion

Yes, because I'm "so afraid of losing," right?

Considering we're actually trying (and failing!) to convince you to produce your (supposed) newly-found evidence (e-mail, name in the UK game, name in the making-of), you can imagine how utterly terrified I am, indeed.

Seriously, do you realize how ridiculous this situation is, from a vaguely sane point of view?

in hopes to get me wrongly banned before anyone points out how your evidence proves nothing.

It proves that you've been lying to us about not being 76.120.173.40, at the very least.

Anyway. There's a good chance you'll get blocked, so maybe you should focus on your argument and finally show us something. Quick. The headers of your e-mail and/or where in the documentary and the UK version of the game Heather is said to be named "Morris."

Or should we assume that you were also lying about that? 88.161.129.43 (talk) 20:39, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

• Ok everyone ... STOP. The chance to put evidence is apparently over. Sadly, FoJ decided that "my previous posts elsewhere was enough", which isn't the case. We still have no e-mail with headers to show validity. In fact, nowhere can I even find any way of the US Konami providing user support via e-mail. People fighting here is not helping. If you have any true accusations of sockpuppetry, make them where they belong WP:SOCK .. after all, I think I was accused of being one too (which cracks me up to no end). This is NOT the place to make additional sock accusations, do them ONLY where they belong. This is not some magic trick ... simply trying to divert attention from the matters at hand will NOT work. The "Silent Hill" article is no place to mention "Morris" because it never appears in the game. The article on Heather Morris, the actress actually DOES mention that "Heather Morris" appears on the boxes of some regional localizations of the game. The article regarding the CHARACTER Heather/Cheryl can have a note to the same effect. Thank you for your participation. Thanks for playing. Now move on everyone ... start doing some edits that MATTER. It's a gosh darn GAME you're all fighting about for crying out loud. As much as I love GAMES, they are not LIFE SHATTERING or LIFE ALTERING. Even a PIT BULL IN HEAT would have given up by now. BMW(drive) 22:27, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

88, just get help. I'm sick of dealing with you. Bwilkins, you guys are the ones who have started this. If the matter was so trivial, you never should have started the whole argument to begin with. And I've already posted ALL of my evidence, but unwilling to accept it, you just choose to ignore it. I won't give up and allow you guys to continue bullying people so easily.Fragments of Jade (talk) 16:35, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

I've already posted ALL of my evidence

Once again, that's bullshit, Jade.

• You said that there was evidence in the UK version that the character's last name was "Morris." Where is it?
• You said that a making-of DVD called the character "Heather Morris." What making-of? Are you talking about the WE Productions documentary (you never confirmed that)? And when exactly does it say that the character is named "Heather Morris"?
• All the people who got e-mails from Konami posted them in their entirety, headers included... except for you, Jade.

You should be able to post that evidence rather easily. So if you don't do just that in your next reply, that will simply mean that the "evidence" mentioned above never existed in the first place. 88.161.129.43 (talk) 21:08, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

88, please stop bating FoJ. It may seem inevitable, but we don't want you both to get blocked/banhammered if we can avoid it. --Lenin and McCarthy | (Complain here) 21:25, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

How is trying to get her to finally post her evidence "baiting" her?

Now, it's my turn to tell you that you're not helping... You just gave her a "good" reason not to post her evidence: I'm just "baiting" her. 88.161.129.43 (talk) 22:11, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

I was more referring to you use of profanity. --Lenin and McCarthy | (Complain here) 23:30, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Sorry about that, I couldn't think of a better word... But Wikipedia apparently can: "horsepuckey." 88.161.129.43 (talk) 23:53, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

It appears to be a pretty clear cut case as to which last name ought to be used---neither. Despite references and sources citing which name is "official," in two official documents related to and released at the time of the game (the game's instruction manual and the Bradygames Official Strategy Guide), Heather is simply referred to as "Heather." The voice actress/motion actress is Heather Morris. However, confusingly, in the ancillary material detailing the important events of the series as a whole, the Strategy Guide Author, Dan Birlew, refers to Heather as both "Heather Morris" and as "'Heather' Mason." Heather Morris is named as an alias taken on after Harry Mason left Silent Hill, and "Heather" Mason is seemingly also an alias, however with the same last name as her father. So confusion is abound. However, setting that ancillary material aside, Heather is only referred to as "Heather" in-game and in official materials. Leaving the last name off of her Wiki entry is the only logical solution.--Dust McAlan (talk) 16:41, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

88, once again, all my evidence has been posted. Just stop ignoring it alread.-.- Dust, all of the characters are referred to only by their first names in the instruction manual. And a strategy guide is very unreliable, as proven by the usage of "Heather Mason". The logical solution is including the last name. So what if it allegedly wasn't mentioned in the game? Is that so unusual? Take Wild ARMs 4. ALL of the villians-about thirteen or so-have last names, but not one of these names is actually stated in the game. It's more common for the last names to be left out of the games themselves.Fragments of Jade (talk) 21:11, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

88, once again, all my evidence has been posted. Just stop ignoring it alread.-.-

Right...

So that evidence never existed in the first place. I'm not exactly surprised. "Thank you," Jade.

The logical solution is including the last name.

No, it's not, because the last name is debated and nowhere to be found in the game anyway.

It looks like everybody agrees about what the logical solution would be, here... except for you, Jade.

So what if it allegedly wasn't mentioned in the game?

"Allegedly," huh?

Is it mentioned in the game? The burden of proof is on you. Or rather, it was on you, as that boat has sailed already.

Is that so unusual?

That's not the problem. See above: the last name is debated. Konami of America are the only ones calling her "Heather Morris," and considering that's the full name of the character's voice actress, that might well be a mistake. You appear to be convinced (for some reason) that it's not, but hey.

So yeah, the logical solution would be to simply call the character "Heather." Konami of America calling her "Heather Morris" could be considered noteworthy though, so a footnote would be welcome on the character's article. 88.161.129.43 (talk) 23:44, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

88, just go away already. You are making it impossible, with your sarcasm and lies, for the rest of us to have a mature conversation.Fragments of Jade (talk) 18:19, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Just Another Dude says: "I'm inclined to just call her Heather..."

...like Cherilyn Sarkisian simply calls herself "Cher" & Madonna Louise Ciccone Ritchie calls herself "Madonna". Sure, the name listing on the box has been mentioned before and used as proof for the name 'Morris', but on the same Chuck E Sleazy greese-token the product description on the 'back of the box' is typically written-up by someone in the Advertising department of whatever company, and NOTHING is canon about those guys (Alcohol warning on the back of Tales of Destiny 2 (U.S.) is a prime example of this).

The way I see it is this: Once Heather got her Transform costume she realized that she could make Billions of dollars in a singing/magical-girl-demon-exorcising gig. To establish herself as a serious pop/rock/sentai, she publicly dropped her last name and paid to have it expunged from her history (burning down all of her school records offices; paying a clerk with a private performance to have her birth certificate altered yet again (Harry must have done that at least once, since his child went from 8 or something to under 1 in the span of a week--I just hope he paid in cash instead); hiring Wade Load to hack into every cyber-record database on, above, underneath, in the general vicinity of, in alternate dimensions to, etc. Earth & erase her last name) so she could be cool like Madonna and Blondie.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Rilolaki (talk • contribs) 03:13, 27 August 2008

Time to Close

Last edit was more than a month ago. Main proponent of "Morris" is indef banned. May we close this? Votes below:

1. Close Time to move on, and deal with this later if needed. BMW(drive) 17:38, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
2. Close --Lenin and McCarthy | (Complain here) 17:45, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
3. Close Erigu (talk) 23:27, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
4. Close --waka (talk) 02:40, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Main proponent of "Morris" is indef banned.

She created a new sockpuppet less than a hour later though... Erigu (talk) 23:27, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

1. Close Original Moderator Launchpad_72

Holy ****, I can't believe that this ballooned so badly. I'm glad my internet cut out when it did. (BTW, sorry for vanishing off the face of the earth.) Launchpad_72 11:43, 29 November 2008 (UTC)