Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2006-06-06 Kenneth Montgomery Keillor
Mediation Case: 2006-06-06 Kenneth Montgomery Keillor[edit]
Please observe Wikipedia:Etiquette and Talk Page Etiquette in disputes. If you submit complaints or insults your edits are likely to be removed by the mediator, any other refactoring of the mediation case by anybody but the mediator is likely to be reverted. If you are not satisfied with the mediation procedure please submit your complaints to Wikipedia talk:Mediation Cabal.
Request Information[edit]
- Request made by: JonnyChance 04:45, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
- Where is the issue taking place?
- Kenneth Montgomery Keillor
- Who's involved?
- User:JonnyChance and User:70.69.192.205
- What's going on?
- The unregistered IP persistently removes a paragraph that I (JonnyChance) have added (always within an hour of my reinstating it sometimes within thirty seconds). I have left a message on the user's talk page, as well as on the talk page of the article, but I have not been replied to.
- What would you like to change about that?
- I'd like at very least a response from this individual as to why he/she continues to remove the article, and preferably an end to his/her endless reversions.
- Would you be willing to be a mediator yourself, and accept a mediation assignment in a different case?
- This is, following the Categorical Imperative, the idea that you might want to do
- what you expect others to do. You don't have to, of course, that's why it's a question.
If I knew what to do... is there a link page to lessons or something?
Mediator response[edit]
I am interested in mediating this. I will list evidence below and contact the IP. Computerjoe's talk 21:13, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
Evidence[edit]
Removal of paragraph[edit]
Removal of paragraph[edit]
Removal of paragraph[edit]
Removal of paragraph[edit]
Incivility[edit]
Misconduct by JonnyChance
Just one of three other reversions. The shouting could be seen in breach of WP:CIVIL. It often says See Discussion, and though JonnyChance started a dicussion - he didn't receive a reply.
Removal of paragraph[edit]
Personal attack[edit]
Compromise offers[edit]
This section is for listing and discussing compromise offers.
Could the Kenneth article be protected so that unregistered users could not make changes? IF that seems an acceptable solution, who should I talk to about getting that done? JonnyChance 00:24, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
- That doesn't sound like a comprimise, to me. Computerjoe's talk 07:17, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
- I'm sorry. It isn't. I was frustrated that this unregistered user was ignoring all attempts at discussion, and simply removing the paragraph repeatedly. I felt that if either the page were protected or the ip was banned, this would either stop, or he/she may actually attempt to respond to my requests of discussion JonnyChance 00:11, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
How about the paragraph in a more neutral POV? Computerjoe's talk 14:32, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
How do you compromise with someone whose motives are harassment and defamation?
- The aim here is to comprimise. Not to arbitrate or advocate. Computerjoe's talk 16:45, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
I would have to see any proposed 'neutral point of view' paragraph before I could comment on it.
- Perhaps do you wish to write one, and then Jonny can read it? That or vice-versa? Computerjoe's talk 18:08, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
I would offer the following observations pertinent to JonnyChance's (Stephen Jersak's) 'paragraph' and statements to date.
"Keillor has gained notoreity in Abbotsford's music scene"
The descriptor "Abbotsford's music scene" is a vague reference that cannot be clearly defined or validated. It is simply ludicrous for 'JonnyChance' to purport to speak for all of 'Abbotsford's music scene', whatever that is.
"most notably for his inclusion of members of many prominent musical groups (such as You Say Party! We Say Die!) on his "list,"
By way of the following statement, 'Jonny' has already admitted that the previous statement was not accurate.
"I would also like to thanks him for bringing to my attention some wording in my paragraph that I would like to change, particularly "many bands" to "several bands."
Beyond the above admission, both the original statement and the proposed revision are false and deliberately misleading. By choosing not to dispute that part of my response, 'Jonny' acknowledged that the persons he originally referred to as "members of many prominent musical groups (such as You Say Party! We Say Die!)", are actually only two individuals, Stu Hood and Jason Nicholas.
As I observed in my original response to 'Jonny', "Hood is a self-professed occultist who uses a music discussion forum to lure naive, unsuspecting youth into occult beliefs and an anti-Christ occultic lifestyle." A perusal of Hood's posts on his SHZine forum will quickly verify this fact. I am a Christian. I can understand why Stu Hood wouldn't like me.
In my original reply to 'Jonny', I stated "I believe the individuals 'JonnyChance' aka Stephen Jersak is referring to as "members of many prominent musical groups" are Stu Hood and Jason Nicholas."
"When I mentioned them (Hood and Nicholas) in my writings, I had no idea they were so-called 'musicians'. I just quoted an Abbotsford newspaper article which stated that the Abbotsford police had shut them down for disturbing their neighbors with loud, all-night parties billed as 'concerts' and for operating a suspected drug house."
By representing two individuals as "members of many prominent musical groups and stating "(such as You Say Party! We Say Die!) on his "list,", 'Jonny' reveals malicious intent by falsely declaring that I had 'included members of many prominent musical groups (such as You Say Party! We Say Die!) on a "list of grievances". To state that I have grievances with many, or several, prominent musical groups is simply a lie.
The document that 'Jonny' has inaccurately referred to as "essentially a list of grievances" is one document of out of many, that together, form a broad personal history and social commentary. Some of the aforementioned documents are freely accessible to anyone and others are only accessible by subscribers to a 'Members Only Area'.
With regard to 'gaining notoreity in Abbotsford's music scene', for my "posting on the SHZine Message Board [1]", as I have previously stated "I happened across Stu Hood's forum by accident and posted a brief invitation for any interested parties to contribute to the forum that I had just started". What followed my initial, well-meaning post on SHZine was a virtually non-stop, vampirish litany of insults, personal attacks and attempts at character assassination directed at my person by various and sundry including the 'moderator' Stu Hood which have continued in one arena or another until the present. Did I defend myself? Yes, and rather convincingly. Hood has never quite gotten over it and I have even worse news for him. Judgment Day is coming. 'Jonny's' posts on SHZine reveal a sycophantic admiration for Hood. I can't help but wonder if that fact has something to do with 'Jonny's' current mission.
Hood has proudly displayed the entire derogatory diatribe on SHZine ever since and it should be read in it's entirety by anyone who wishes to know the full story It is posted on SHZine at http://shzine.proboards10.com/index.cgi?board=links&action=display&thread=1093358635. There are other derogatory and libelous postings about me on SHZine as well.
Beyond that, it is accurate to state that I have gained notoriety for my music, in Abbotsford, and elsewhere, for being a singer, stage performer, recording artist and the composer of over 300 songs. I have gained further notoriety for adopting the following position pertinent to Abbotsford, BC, Canada as revealed in an email to someone from Abbotsford who recently wanted me to join their band:
"Hi. I live in Abbotsford and thought I should be considerate enough to reply to your email. I am a rock singer/songwriter and rhythm guitarist. Your project sounds interesting and like something I would normally be enthusiastic about participating in. Unfortunately, I have encountered, and been abused by, so much slime in Abby that I have decided not to perform my music here. In addition, I have met enough arrogant idiots who fancy themselves musical artists, and more than enough sleazy party filth, to cause me to lose interest in musicians, music shows or anything else pertaining to music, or parties, in Abbotsford. Nothing personal"
'Jonny' further ponders "I'm also wondering about the best way of showing, or even whether it should be shown, the fact that "the list" is now subscribers only, because as it is now (at least, in the history of the page) it gets in the way of flow.".
With regard to 'Jonny's' soul-searching pertinent to the above, let me attempt to set his mind at ease by offering the following observation. It is a reasonable statement of fact to say that I have a Members Only Area on my website www.thepunks.com which is accessible by paid members only. The current fee for access to said Members Only Area is subject to change and entirely irrelevant to the article.
I don't know what 'Jonny' means by "gets in the way of flow". As far as I'm concerned, his entire paragraph gets in the way of the truth.
The following passage in 'Jonny's' effort "(Note: the list has now been moved to a "subscribers-only" section of his website, which can only be viewed if the reader pays a fee $20 a month.)" reveals bias and is carefully taylored to solicit a negative response from the reader.
Regarding 'Jonny's' statement "Pop-Punk group Fun 100 references him in the song "Hygiene Boy" (sometimes referred to as "Kenneth"), specifically in lines such as "You're tired of these people / everybody's on your list.", I offer the following observations. 'JonnyChance' is a teenager who is trying to make a name for himself by attending music shows and reviewing musical acts on his website http://jonnychance.port5.com and on SHZine here
He is an associate of the members of 'Fun 100' and does all he can to promote them on both his website and on the SHZine forum. http://shzine.proboards10.com/index.cgi?board=hand It was, in fact, 'Jonny' who created the 'Fun 100' article on wikipedia.
On the other hand, as soon as I posted my response to the subtly malicious and derogatory paragraph he added to the article about me on wikipedia, he couldn't fly over to the SHZine forum fast enough to post the following under the title 'Kenneth and wikipedia.org': Quote: Hahahahaha unquote, followed by the following link: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Kenneth_Montgomery_Keillor&oldid=58182118.
In reply to the following observation by the mediator: "I'd like Jonny to explain this edit. I can see misconduct after reading this forum", 'Jonny' stated "I found it humourous that Kenneth is responding in a similar way he did on the SHZine thread, resorting to thinly veiled attacks ("so-called musicians" was found frequently in his response)".
I contributed to the SHZine forum from the beginning of June/2004 until July 15/2004. A search of the term 'so-called musicians' utilizing the SHZine forum 'Search' function covering 800 days previous to today's date of July 13/2006, yielded the following result "We could not find any posts that matched your search.".
This search result makes 'JonnyChance' look like a bald-faced liar who will resort to any tactic in his quest to defame me. I see another, far less innocent motive in his "Hahahahaha".
Regarding "Originally the purpose of the paragraph was to mention that he had been referenced in a song by a band that meets Wikipedia's criteria for notability. However, I saw that the question would arise of why they would write a song about this man, so I gave the back story, as well as the inclusion of a member of another notable band on the list. Was this malicious? Would it be malicious to mention that any other notable figure has been alluded to in a song by any other notable band (in both cases, the term notable is used loosely, but the individual and both bands in question have all been deemed notable after being nominated for deletion)?", I would only like to say that I have been inspired to compose a song in response to the defamatory efforts of 'Fun 100'. If Fun 100's libelous composition about me is ultimately allowed to be referenced in the wikipedia article Kenneth Montgomery Keillor, it is only fair and reasonable that my song be referenced in the article as well.
Mindful of the above revelations, we should now offer 'JonnyChance' a 'chance' to attempt to produce a truly 'neutral point of view' alternative to his initial malicious and derogatory tripe.
Kenneth Montgomery Keillor.
- Kenneth, you are absolutely free to reference your song against Fun 100, I have no problem witht that. When I mentioned you saying "so-called musician" in your response, I was referring to the short essay you wrote here entitled "Kenneth Montgomery Keillor's response to 'JonnyChance', 'Fun 100' and 'Hygiene Boy'." If you inferred that I meant your responses to the SHZine thread, you made an understandable mistake. I posted that link on SHZine in perhaps the worst way possible, but wasn't it relevant there? It quoted people who frequent the forum, and analysed an entire song by Fun 100. Yes, I am a fan of Fun 100, but Fun 100 has been approved as notable by Wikipedia, just as you, Kenneth, have, and as I said before, is it malicious to mention that a notable band wrote a song about a notable person? I started the Fun 100 page, but who started the Kenneth page? It wasn't you, but you restarted it after it was deleted for copyright violation, and again multiple times after it was deleted or moved to you user page. But all sticks and stones aside, without further ado, the next step in compromise:
- Keillor has gained notoreity among some members of Abbotsford's music scene, through his interactions with them at the SHZine, as well as including members of You Say Party! We Say Die! and other bands on his "list," a composition that is described as (Kenneth, insert your description here). Pop-Punk group Fun 100 references him in the song "Hygiene Boy" (sometimes referred to as "Kenneth"), specifically in lines such as "You're tired of these people / everybody's on your list."
- How about losing the word notoreity and replacing it with a more NPOV word? Computerjoe's talk 07:30, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
- I said "You Say Party! and other bands," because there were three people added to your list who post on SHZine, Jason, of You Say Party, Stu, of Progressive Thinker and other bands, and a third, who I can not recall, as I am unable to access the list. I can not verify that the third person is/has been in a band, but I believe he was. If he was not, then "members of You Say Party! and other bands" is misleading, but still factual. Feel free to make changes, and I will do the same, until we reach compromise. JonnyChance 00:21, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
Response of Kenneth Montgomery Keillor to the June 15/2006 Statement of Stephen Jersak aka ‘JonnyChance’
Regarding Jonny’s (Stephen Jersak's) invitation, “Kenneth, you are absolutely free to reference your song against Fun 100, I have no problem witht that.”
I would like to thank him for that, but firstly, I didn't say my song was “against” Fun 100. I said “I have been inspired to compose a song in response to the defamatory efforts of 'Fun 100'. If Fun 100's libelous composition about me is ultimately allowed to be referenced in the wikipedia article ‘Kenneth Montgomery Keillor’, it is only fair and reasonable that my song be referenced in the article as well.” Whether my song is a compliment or an insult is a subjective judgment to be rendered by others. Someone might interpret it as “against” and yet others might consider it a compliment to be referred to in any song by Kenneth Montgomery Keillor. In any case, it is artistic expression. It even mentions 'JonnyChance' and ‘Stu’. It is entitled 'Scum 100'. Furthermore, I believe the lyrics to both ‘Scum 100’ and ‘Hygiene Boy’ and a full history, should be included in both the ‘Kenneth Montgomery Keillor’ article and the ‘Fun 100’ article created by ‘Jonny’ as relevant to both stories, and I would expect Jonny to agree. If this story is relevant to either article, then this entire story is just as relevant to both articles, and should be published in both articles, to give the true and full story.
Let us now consider 'Jonny's statement "When I mentioned you saying "so-called musician" in your response, I was referring to the short essay you wrote here entitled "Kenneth Montgomery Keillor's response to 'JonnyChance', 'Fun 100' and 'Hygiene Boy'." To remind us, Jonny’s exact statement was "I found it humourous that Kenneth is responding in a similar way he did on the SHZine thread, resorting to thinly veiled attacks ("so-called musicians" was found frequently in his response)".
I believe I used the term 'so-called musicians' all of twice in the entire document. One in reference to Stu Hood and Jason Nichlolas and once in reference to Fun 100. Jonny characterizes this as "frequently". Even if we accept Jonny's claim that he was referring exclusively to that document which he alludes to as "the short essay you wrote here entitled "Kenneth Montgomery Keillor's response to 'JonnyChance', 'Fun 100' and 'Hygiene Boy'.", the following fact remains.
"I contributed to the SHZine forum from the beginning of June/2004 until July 15/2004. A search of the term 'so-called musicians' utilizing the SHZine forum 'Search' function covering 800 days previous to today's date of July 13/2006, yielded the following result "We could not find any posts that matched your search.".
“This search result makes 'JonnyChance' look like a bald-faced liar who will resort to any tactic in his quest to defame me."
One could logically assume that if I had previously contributed to a forum frequently and voluminously, as I did, for one and one half months, and was recently found "responding in a similar way he did on the SHZine thread, resorting to thinly veiled attacks ("so-called musicians" was found frequently in his response)", that I would have originally used the same term ‘so-called musicians’ many times over, or at the very least, once.
Let us take a moment here to consider the term "so-called musicians". Dictionary.com lists 'alleged' and 'supposed' as synonymous with 'so-called' . A definition of alleged is "Represented as existing or as being as described but not so proved; supposed. A definition of 'supposed' is "Presumed to be true or real without conclusive evidence." As I previously noted "When I mentioned them (Hood and Nicholas) in my writings, I had no idea they were, or claimed to be, 'musicians'. I just quoted an Abbotsford newspaper article which stated that the Abbotsford police had shut them down for frequently disturbing their neighbors with loud, all-night parties billed as 'concerts' and for operating a suspected drug house." Since I had no evidence or personal knowledge of whether Hood and Nicholas were musicians or not, within the context, my use of the term 'so-called' was perfectly reasonable, and not necessarily derogatory. On the other hand, Jonny has used his subjective interpretation of the term, and my use of it, to harass and derogate me.
Jonny's statement "Kenneth is responding in a similar way he did on the SHZine thread, resorting to thinly veiled attacks" is purely subjective, inaccurate, derogatory and deliberately misleading. I seriously doubt that Jonny has even read the entire thread. I wish the mediator would, and I think everyone who wishes to know the true and full story should read it in it’s entirety. It can be found here. If there were any “attacks”, a perusal of the entire thread will reveal that there were vastly more, and more vicious, “attacks” directed at my person than otherwise. As I stated earlier, "I happened across Stu Hood's forum by accident and posted a brief invitation for any interested parties to contribute to the forum that I had just started". What followed my initial, well-meaning post on SHZine was a virtually non-stop, vampire-like litany of personal attacks, insults and attempts at character assassination directed at my person by various and sundry including the 'moderator' Stu Hood. Said attacks have continued in one arena or another until the present. These attacks against me included the posting of my home address and a description of my vehicles on SHZine in a malevolent attempt to inspire evil individuals to visit harm upon my home, my family, my personal property and myself. Did I defend myself against the attacks on SHZine? Yes, and rather eloquently. Hood has never quite gotten over it and I have even worse news for him. Judgment Day. 'Jonny's' posts on SHZine reveal a sycophantic admiration for Hood. I can't help but wonder if that fact has something to do with 'Jonny's' current mission.". As I observed in my original response to 'Jonny', Hood is a self-professed occultist who uses a music discussion forum to lure naive, unsuspecting youth into occult beliefs and an anti-Christ, occult lifestyle. A perusal of Hood's posts on his SHZine forum will quickly verify this fact. I am a Christian. I can understand why Stu Hood wouldn't like me. As I stated earlier, Judgment Day is coming when Hood and his sycophants will stand before Jesus Christ and answer for themselves. I would always like them to remember who warned them.
Hood locked the original thread, and has proudly displayed, the entire derogatory diatribe against me on SHZine ever since July 2004, which is somewhat curious as it makes a mockery of his role as a ‘moderator’ and makes him look like a vampire. It is posted on SHZine at http://shzine.proboards10.com/index.cgi?board=links&action=display&thread=1093358635. There are other derogatory and libelous postings about me on SHZine as well.
"Now let us refresh our memory pertinent to my statement that Jonny makes reference to as “the short essay you wrote here entitled "Kenneth Montgomery Keillor's response to 'JonnyChance', 'Fun 100' and 'Hygiene Boy”:
Hereinunder is Kenneth Montgomery Keillor's response to 'JonnyChance', 'Fun 100' and 'Hygiene Boy'.
Without prejudice
An individual nicknamed JonnyChance who resides in Abbotsford, BC, Canada continually defaces this article about me with the following subtly malicious and derogatory drivel:
Quote: Keillor has gained notoreity in Abbotsford's music scene, most notably for his inclusive of members of many prominent musical groups (such as You Say Party! We Say Die!) on his "list," which is essentially a list of grievances, and for his posting on the SHZine Message Board[1]. Pop-Punk group Fun 100 references him in the song "Hygiene Boy" (sometimes referred to as "Kenneth"), specifically in lines such as "You're tired of these people / everybody's on your list. unquote.
I believe the individuals 'JonnyChance' aka Stephen Jersak is referring to as "members of many prominent musical groups" are Stu Hood and Jason Nicholas. When I mentioned them in my writings, I had no idea they were so-called 'musicians'. I just quoted an Abbotsford newspaper article which stated that the Abbotsford police had shut them down for disturbing their neighbors with loud, all-night parties billed as 'concerts' and for operating a suspected drug house. Since some so-called Abbotsford musicians calling themselves 'Fun 100' wrote, recorded and promoted a derogatory diatribe about me called 'Hygiene Boy', I have mentioned them in my writings as well. Stu Hood is the creator of SHZine forum. All of the persons referred to in this document have become acquainted with each other through said forum. Hood is a self-professed occultist who uses a music discussion forum to lure naive, unsuspecting youth into occult beliefs and an anti-Christ occult lifestyle. Jason Nicholas professes to be a 'Christian'. I happened across Stu Hood's forum by accident and posted a brief invitation for any interested parties to contribute to the forum that I had just started. Go to www.thepunks.com/shzine.html to read the entire dialog that ensued.
'Jonny' makes reference to my 'notoriety'. I have gained notoriety pertinent to my music for being a singer, stage performer, recording artist and the composer of over 300 songs. I have gained further notoriety for adopting the following position pertinent to Abbotsford, BC, Canada as revealed in an email to someone from Abbotsford who recently wanted me to join their band:
"Hi. I live in Abbotsford and thought I should be considerate enough to reply to your email. I am a rock singer/songwriter and rhythm guitarist. Your project sounds interesting and like something I would normally be enthusiastic about participating in. Unfortunately, I have encountered, and been abused by, so much slime in Abby that I have decided not to perform my music here. In addition, I have met enough arrogant idiots who fancy themselves musical artists, and more than enough sleazy party filth, to cause me to lose interest in musicians, music shows or anything else pertaining to music, or parties, in Abbotsford. Nothing personal".
Lyrics to 'Hygiene Boy' (with comments by Kenneth Montgomery Keillor in brackets.)
you're tired of these people
(I've never had any stomach for scum and I make no bones about it)
everybody's on your list
(Only people I don't respect are on 'The List')
it's time you got your act together take control of it
(I'm a Christian who believes in Jesus and who has repented of his sins. In terms of having my act together and taking control of it, I'd rather be in my boots than yours)
to run from the country could be a better plan
(Sorry, I'm not the 'runnin' kind)
but the problem is this what you just don't understand
(Like I should ever worry about what you think I don't understand)
you're tired of the parties and you're tired of the streets
you're tired of the shows and you're tired of the scene
you say that you want out you say you gotta leave
but the only problem is that it's not easy 'cause you
(It's true that I'm tired of this world and the sleazy filth that it is full of and that I'm not into your 'scene'. Even though certain individuals make Abbotsford smell bad, I've never suggested I was prepared to leave for their sake.
Time for a scripture quote:
John 15:19: "If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you." - Jesus Christ)
can't run, run from the country when you don't do your laundry
(I'd be willing to bet I do my laundry more often than you)
bask in, bask in the glory
(I say "All glory to the Lord Jesus Christ")
of your own small-town story
(I'm more of a world citizen and more knowledgeable about this world than the whole bunch of you ever will be.)
do what, do what you oughta do what, do what you gotta
but don't tell me that you didn't get no warning
(I got the only warning that matters. It's in the Bible. You might want to check it out.)
na na na-na na na-na
(Are you sure you don't mean 'wah-wah-wah-wah-wah-wah-wah'?)
(repeat)
can't run, run from the country when you don't do your laundry
bask in, bask in the glory of your own small-town story
do what, do what you gotta do what, do what you oughta
but don't tell me that you didn't get no warning
i take a bus i know my route i pick up change and i buy food!
i plug myself into a block of cheese oh, i envy you
(It's not that I don't like buses, but I've never taken a ride on an Abbotsford bus. I'd bet you all have.)
What is really 'cheesy' is your all too obvious attempt to defame me.
(In spite of yourselves, I still hope you find Jesus and get saved.)
Hygiene Boy« Last Edit: Mar 24, 2005, 8:26pm by jonny hughes »(yet another SHZine adherent).
Fun 100
Some and possibly all of the following Abbotsford individuals have been actively involved with promotion of the defamatory composition 'Hygiene Boy':
Bruce Dyck - drums
Steve Matheson - bass like guitar
Marc Boucher - whining/synths/back up vocals
Ryan Dyck - lead vocals/keyboards
Adam Fothergill - guitar
Nathan Rothenburger - Bass
Robin Price - Guitar
Mark Jaholkowski - Bass
Galations 6:7: "Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
This scripture is extremely bad news for many individuals in Abby.
While writing this document, I have made a sincere effort to be truthful, accurate and polite.
Kenneth Montgomery Keillor
- ”
As I noted previously, "as soon as I posted my response to the subtly malicious and derogatory paragraph he added to the article about me on wikipedia, he couldn't fly over to the SHZine forum fast enough to post the following under the title 'Kenneth and wikipedia.org':
Quote: Hahahahaha unquote, followed by the following link: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Kenneth_Montgomery_Keillor&oldid=58182118."
The mediator responded to Jonny's “Hahahahaha” post on the SHZine forum with "I'd like Jonny to explain this edit. I can see misconduct after reading this forum" Jonny attempted to cover his tracks with “I found it humourous that Kenneth is responding in a similar way he did on the SHZine thread, resorting to thinly veiled attacks ("so-called musicians" was found frequently in his response)” The above statement by Jonny was an attempt to explain away his haste to further escalate his campaign of harassment and defamation against me and his enthusiasm to assist Hood and Fun 100, of whom he is a self-professed 'fan', to continue promotion of their defamatory composition.
Regarding Jonny's "Hahahahaha" post on SHZine, he makes the following confession. "I posted that link on SHZine in perhaps the worst way possible".
I offer the following observation. I appreciate the candor of Jonny's admission. In his rush to post his celebratory derogation, in similar fashion to a wolf bringing fresh meat back to the pack, he got ahead of himself and revealed his true colors, and his true motive. His 'posting of that link on SHZine in perhaps the worst way possible' made him 'smell in the worst way possible' and destroyed any credibility he may like to wish he ever had.
Pertinent to "I posted that link on SHZine in perhaps the worst way possible, but wasn't it relevant there? It quoted people who frequent the forum, and analysed an entire song by Fun 100", I have absolutely no objection to Jonny's posting of the link, or even the entire text of the document, if he so wished. I would like everyone to read it. I do find fault with the malicious, derogatory, pathetic, juvenile way he went about it. As I mentioned earlier, it was constructive from a certain perspective in that it revealed his true colors.
Regarding Jonny's declarations "I am a fan of Fun 100" and "I started the Fun 100 page", rather than ‘fan’, I believe the term 'sycophant' would be more accurate. Re: "Fun 100 has been approved as notable by Wikipedia, just as you, Kenneth", this is true.
In my case, it only proves that someone who has come from humble beginnings and weathered severe adversity and never considered himself special above others or any better than anyone else can become 'notable' in spite of it all.
Re: "is it malicious to mention that a notable band wrote a song about a notable person?" At first blush, the answer would be no. Upon closer scrutiny, if the facts prove to be that the motive for incorporating a reference to a defamatory diatribe masquerading as a 'song' into a public article about someone is actually a conspiracy of associated individuals with malicious intent to damage and defame that person, the answer is yes. Since all available evidence in this case points to the latter, it is not acceptable or proper to incorporate such a reference into the article in question in this case.
Re: "Originally the purpose of the paragraph was to mention that he had been referenced in a song by a band that meets Wikipedia's criteria for notability. However, I saw that the question would arise of why they would write a song about this man, so I gave the back story, as well as the inclusion of a member of another notable band on the list. Was this malicious? Would it be malicious to mention that any other notable figure has been alluded to in a song by any other notable band (in both cases, the term notable is used loosely, but the individual and both bands in question have all been deemed notable after being nominated for deletion)?"
Actually, all the best evidence to date would expose the original purpose of the 'paragraph' to be one of malicious harassment and defamation. In any event, if the reference is ulimately allowed to be incorporated into the article about me, it would be a clear invitation to incorporate a reference to my song, with an accompanying history of events leading up to the composition of said song, into the Fun 100 article.
Let us now consider, line by line, Jonny's proposed 'compromise' which is his attempt to present a 'neutral point of view'.
“Keillor has gained notoreity among some members of Abbotsford's music scene, through his interactions with them at the SHZine, as well as including members of You Say Party! We Say Die! and other bands on his "list," a composition that is described as (Kenneth, insert your description here). Pop-Punk group Fun 100 references him in the song "Hygiene Boy" (sometimes referred to as "Kenneth"), specifically in lines such as "You're tired of these people / everybody's on your list."
As I observed earlier, "The descriptor "Abbotsford's music scene" is a vague reference that cannot be clearly defined or validated. It is simply ludicrous for 'JonnyChance' to purport to speak for all of 'Abbotsford's music scene', whatever that is."
Let us examine the wording of Jonny’s original proposal:
"most notably for his inclusion of members of many prominent musical groups (such as You Say Party! We Say Die!) on his "list,"
In my original reply to 'Jonny', I stated "I believe the individuals 'JonnyChance' aka Stephen Jersak is referring to as "members of many prominent musical groups" are Stu Hood and Jason Nicholas." Jonny has now confirmed the accuracy of the above statement by admitting the following “I said "You Say Party! and other bands," because there were three people added to your list who post on SHZine, Jason (Nicholas), of You Say Party, Stu (Hood), of Progressive Thinker and other bands”.
When called on this, Jonny countered with “"I would also like to thanks him for bringing to my attention some wording in my paragraph that I would like to change, particularly "many bands" to "several bands."
I replied at the time, and do repeat here for emphasis “By representing two individuals as "members of many prominent musical groups and stating "(such as You Say Party! We Say Die!) on his "list,", 'Jonny' reveals malicious intent by falsely suggesting that I had 'included members of many prominent musical groups (such as You Say Party! We Say Die!) on a "list of grievances". To imply that I have grievances with many, or several, prominent musical groups is simply a lie. I admire true musicians and have done so all of my life.
‘Jonny’ further states “and a third, who I can not recall, as I am unable to access the list. I can not verify that the third person is/has been in a band, but I believe he was. If he was not, then "members of You Say Party! and other bands" is misleading, but still factual”
I would seriously question the wisdom and propriety of basing changes to an article on the basis of phantoms that Jonny cannot recall the identity of, cannot verify the gender of or even if they have ever been in a band. He goes on to confess “If he was not, then "members of You Say Party! and other bands" is misleading, but still factual.” Phantoms are not credible and facts are not “misleading”. Jonny can’t have it both ways.
Jonny concludes with “Feel free to make changes, and I will do the same, until we reach compromise. JonnyChance 00:21, 15 June 2006
Here-in-under is my proposed compromise:
Without prejudice.
Kenneth Montgomery Keillor has garnered notability for his music as a singer, stage performer, recording artist and the composer of over 300 songs. His parents hosted the Aldergrove Beach Rock Festival, the first ever rock festival in Canada. Keillor has performed live at music venues such as the New Music West festival in Vancouver, BC and co-produced and published a CD entitled 'The Punks' of himself and other musical artists singing and performing ten of his own compositions. He continues to compose, record and publish his music up to the present. Keillor has earned notoriety for being the creator of the website www.thepunks.com which showcases not only his music, but also the three books he has written as well as controversial writings on numerous subjects. Keillor gained notoreity among some Abbotsford musicians, and others, through his interactions with them between the beginning of June 2004 until July 15, 2004 through the SHZine forum created and moderated by self-professed occultist Stu Hood. Keillor subsequently mentioned Stu Hood and and his associate Jason Nicholas, on his website www.thepunks.com. Keillor had no idea they were supposedly 'musicians' when he quoted an Abbotsford newspaper article which stated that the Abbotsford police had shut down a residence occupied by Hood and Nicholas on grounds of frequently disturbing their neighbors with loud, all-night parties billed as 'concerts' and for operating a suspected drug house. Keillor happened across Stu Hood's forum SHZine by chance and posted a brief invitation for any interested parties to contribute to a forum called PunksZine that Keillor had just created". What followed Keillor’s initial, well-meaning post on SHZine was a virtually non-stop, vampire-like litany of personal attacks, insults, attempts at character assassination, theft and unauthorized reproduction and defamatory alterations of Keillor's copyrighted materials by various and sundry including the 'moderator' Stu Hood. Said attacks have continued in one arena or another until the present. Keillor defended himself against the attacks on SHZine, and rather eloquently so. Hood seems to have never quite gotten over it. Hood has obsessively displayed the entire dialog on SHZine ever since and it should be read in it's entirety by anyone who wishes to know the full story It is posted on the SHZine forum at http://shzine.proboards10.com/index.cgi?board=links&action=display&thread=1093358635 There are other libelous postings about Keillor on SHZine as well. As recently as June 13, 2006, Stu Hood posted the following message on his SHZine forum. Quote: "if anyone wants to see a page from the 'subscribers' sections, let me know.. and no i didnt pay the 20 doll hairs" unquote. It can be viewed on SHZine at the following link under the post by Stephen Jersak aka 'JonnyChance' of Abbotsford, BC. entitled 'Kenneth and wikipedia.org': http://shzine.proboards10.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=1150126014. A copy of it is also available from Mr. Keillor. In it, Hood is advertising the fact that he has hacked into the paid subscribers’ 'Members Only Area' of Keillor’s website www.thepunks.com and is offering access to Keillor’s stolen, copyrighted material to anyone who wants it. Stephen Jersak aka ‘JonnyChance’ is an associate of Hood, Nicholas and the members of Fun 100 who exhibits a sycophantic preoccupation with them reminiscent of homosexual infatuation. Jersak has been actively attempting to harass, ridicule and defame Keillor of late in various forums. Subsequent to Keillor’s participation in the SHZine forum in 2004, members of the Abbotsford music group Fun 100 composed, recorded, promoted and now publicly perform a defamatory diatribe about Keillor in the form of a song entitled "Hygiene Boy" (sometimes referred to as "Kenneth"), according to Jersak, with lines such as "You're tired of these people / everybody's on your list.". As a result of this slanderous and libelous attack by the members of Fun 100, Keillor has mentioned the members of Fun 100 in his writings and was inspired to compose the song 'Scum 100' which is now included in his catalogue of over 300 songs.
Ken has gained further notoriety for adopting the following position pertinent to Abbotsford, BC, Canada as revealed in an email to someone from Abbotsford who recently wanted him to join their band:
"Hi. I live in Abbotsford and thought I should be considerate enough to reply to your email. I am a rock singer/songwriter and rhythm guitarist. Your project sounds interesting and like something I would normally be enthusiastic about participating in. Unfortunately, I have encountered, and been abused by, so much slime in Abby that I have decided not to perform my music here. In addition, I have met enough arrogant idiots who fancy themselves musical artists, and more than enough sleazy party filth, to cause me to lose interest in musicians, music shows or anything else pertaining to music, or parties, in Abbotsford. Nothing personal"
Lyrics to 'Hygiene Boy, as posted on the SHZine forum.
(with comments by Kenneth Montgomery Keillor in brackets.)
you're tired of these people
(I've never had any stomach for scum and I make no bones about it)
everybody's on your list
(Only people I don't respect are on 'The List')
it's time you got your act together take control of it
(I'm a Christian who believes in Jesus and who has repented of his sins. In terms of having my act together and taking control of it, I'd rather be in my boots than yours)
to run from the country could be a better plan
(Sorry, I'm not the 'runnin' kind)
but the problem is this what you just don't understand
(Like I should ever worry about what you think I don't understand)
you're tired of the parties and you're tired of the streets
you're tired of the shows and you're tired of the scene
you say that you want out you say you gotta leave
but the only problem is that it's not easy 'cause you
(It's true that I'm tired of this world and the sleazy filth that it is full of and that I'm not into your 'scene'. Even though certain individuals make Abbotsford smell bad, I've never suggested I was prepared to leave for their sake.
Time for a scripture quote:
John 15:19: "If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you." - Jesus Christ)
can't run, run from the country when you don't do your laundry
(I'd be willing to bet I do my laundry more often than you)
bask in, bask in the glory
(I say "All glory to the Lord Jesus Christ")
of your own small-town story
(I'm more of a world citizen and more knowledgeable about this world than the whole bunch of you ever will be.)
do what, do what you oughta do what, do what you gotta
but don't tell me that you didn't get no warning
(I got the only warning that matters. It's in the Bible. You might want to check it out.)
na na na-na na na-na
(Are you sure you don't mean 'wah-wah-wah-wah-wah-wah-wah'?)
(repeat)
can't run, run from the country when you don't do your laundry
bask in, bask in the glory of your own small-town story
do what, do what you gotta do what, do what you oughta
but don't tell me that you didn't get no warning
i take a bus i know my route i pick up change and i buy food!
i plug myself into a block of cheese oh, i envy you
(It's not that I don't like buses, but I've never taken a ride on an Abbotsford bus. I'd bet you all have.)
What is really 'cheesy' is your all too obvious attempt to defame me.
(In spite of yourselves, I still hope you find Jesus and get saved.)
Hygiene Boy« Last Edit: Mar 24, 2005, 8:26pm by jonny hughes »(yet another SHZine adherent).
Fun 100 Members:
Some and possibly all of the following Abbotsford individuals have been actively involved with promotion of the defamatory composition 'Hygiene Boy':
Bruce Dyck - drums
Steve Matheson - bass like guitar
Marc Boucher - whining/synths/back up vocals
Ryan Dyck - lead vocals/keyboards
Adam Fothergill - guitar
Nathan Rothenburger - Bass
Robin Price - Guitar
Mark Jaholkowski - Bass
(The lyrics to ‘Scum 100’ to be inserted here.)
(The titles of all of Ken’s songs to be inserted here.)
- First of all, this dispute is not over the entire article, but only one section, so posting the whole new proposed article is unnecessary. It is also unnecessary to repost your response (it seemed like you didn't like it when i termed it a "short essay," what would you prefer?), my original paragraph, your original response to it, my new paragraph, and the shzine stuff, as everyone here is familiar with those pieces. If you must, link to them.
- In regards to the proposed end of the article, it is obscene to suggest that the titles of all three hundred of your seongs be listed. No other musical group (to my knowledge), has this on their page, although they do list released singles, which you have every right to list.
- I've noticed in other articles that when a song is mentioned, the entire lyrics are not recited. I don't think having them on your page is appropriate.
- I need to get a third party (Computerjoe?) opinion on this, but your entire article, to me at least, reaks of POV. The language praises Kenneth, and I believe the entire paragraphless composition needs an overhaul linguistically. Just barely off-topic, the line "exhibits a sycophantic preoccupation with them reminiscent of homosexual infatuation" made me laugh out loud. I hope you don't mind if I post it on SHZine, my website, or both.
- Facts can be misleading, and especially so when they deal with quantities. This mediation process encompasses between two and five thousand people. Blasphemously misleading, but true. It is true that you listed members of bands, however, the average mind assumes this means more than two (if you decide to list only one band per person).
- Remember, this is an excyclopedia, not a persuasive essay. The goal is (correct me if I'm wrong) to tell the facts in a useful way. Opinions are not facts, unless presented as opinions.
- I don't claim to speak for all of the indefinable mass that is the Abbotsford scene. I even reworded the original sentence to make it even more clear. Aside from this reference to musicians and music enthusiast (although I do not deny that some of these people are just party idiots, I don't think nearly any o those have even heard of you), the only problem you seem to have with my paragraph is the wording of one sentence. Why don't you propose a rewording? It would be much easier and efficient than the mass of text you wrote that has essentially summarised (although little was removed) the argument so far. JonnyChance 01:40, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
- I found this a little too long, and to be frank I didn't even read it due to it's length. Could this be summarised in three sentences? Computerjoe's talk 08:01, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
Kenneth Montgomery Keillor's Response to the June 16/2006 Statement of Stephen Jersak aka 'JonnyChance'
I would first consider the latest post of Jersak on the SHZine forum, "he's writing a song called Scum 100 which he says references all the members (past and present) of Fun 100, Stu Hood, and Stephen Jersak.
I really wanna hear it!"
What I actually said was "I didn't say my song was “against” Fun 100. I said “I have been inspired to compose a song in response to the defamatory efforts of 'Fun 100'. If Fun 100's libelous composition about me is ultimately allowed to be referenced in the wikipedia article ‘Kenneth Montgomery Keillor’, it is only fair and reasonable that my song be referenced in the article as well.” Whether my song is a compliment or an insult is a subjective judgment to be rendered by others. Someone might interpret it as “against” and yet others might consider it a compliment to be referred to in any song by Kenneth Montgomery Keillor. In any case, it is artistic expression. It even mentions 'JonnyChance' and ‘Stu’. It is entitled 'Scum 100'. Furthermore, I believe the lyrics to both ‘Scum 100’ and ‘Hygiene Boy’ and a full history, should be included in both the ‘Kenneth Montgomery Keillor’ article and the ‘Fun 100’ article created by ‘Jonny’ as relevant to both stories, and I would expect Jonny to agree. If this story is relevant to either article, then this entire story is just as relevant to both articles, and should be published in both articles, to give the true and full story."
Re: "He's writing a song called Scum 100". Allow me to clarify. I've already written it. Re: "which he says references all the members (past and present) of Fun 100, Stu Hood, and Stephen Jersak." I never said 'Scum 100' "references all the members (past and present) of Fun 100", nor did I specifically use the names "Stu Hood", or "Stephen Jersak". Once again, Jonny proves to be a bald-faced liar who will misquote and misrepresent my statements any way he can in order to further his campaign to harass and defame me.
For the record, I would note that as a result of Jersak's latest post on SHZine, harassment and veiled threats are currently being made against me such as "I've been yelling KENNETH whenever I drive by his house. Everyone should do this." and "Heheheh I think you should tell us all where he lives."
Re: "First of all, this dispute is not over the entire article, but only one section, so posting the whole new proposed article is unnecessary." I didn't post a proposed replacement for the entire article. I offered a replacement for your proposed 'paragraph'.
Re: "It is also unnecessary to repost your response (it seemed like you didn't like it when i termed it a "short essay," what would you prefer?), my original paragraph, your original response to it, my new paragraph, and the shzine stuff, as everyone here is familiar with those pieces. If you must, link to them. You are entitled to your opinion, but, for the sake of clarity, I believe it is absolutely apropos to quote from sources and comment on previous statements in the manner I have.
Re: "(it seemed like you didn't like it when i termed it a "short essay," what would you prefer?)" I had no trouble with your use of the term "short essay".
Re: "In regards to the proposed end of the article, it is obscene to suggest that the titles of all three hundred of your seongs be listed. No other musical group (to my knowledge), has this on their page, although they do list released singles, which you have every right to list." Let us know when you have checked every page on Wikipedia to confirm whether or not others have listed their song titles. Your use of the phrase "to my knowledge" reveals your statement to be nothing more than personal opinion and wishful speculation at this point. The titles of one's compositions, be they books, poems or songs, can offer valuable insight into the mind and philosophy of the writer. The titles of authors books, including my own, are commonly referenced in articles for that very purpose. I see nothing wrong with listing them all. It is an absolutely legitimate and important part of the story. If this has not been common practice on Wikipedia to date, this is an appropriate opportunity to set the precedent. Your finding of the proposition as "obscene" is a purely subjective opinion based on your own perceptions and prejudices and provides us with valuable insight into your 'mind'. In any case, to begin, I will certainly reference my CD 'The Punks' and all of the songs on it as well as the singles I have published.
Re: "I need to get a third party (Computerjoe?) opinion on this, but your entire article, to me at least, reaks of POV. The language praises Kenneth, and I believe the entire paragraphless composition needs an overhaul linguistically.". I would also wish the mediator to read my proposed compromise and share his opinion with us in order to assist us in this process.
Re: "The language praises Kenneth" Will you please list the specific statements you are referrring to?
Re: "I believe the entire paragraphless composition needs an overhaul linguistically." Once we agree on the wording of the document, it can easily be polished linguistically.
Re: "Just barely off-topic, the line "exhibits a sycophantic preoccupation with them reminiscent of homosexual infatuation" made me laugh out loud. I like it when people are happy. Even though, based on all of the best evidence, the observation is very possibly accurate, it is true that it is subjective opinion and, as such, I will agree to remove it from the text.
Re: "I hope you don't mind if I post it on SHZine, my website, or both." As long as you quote it within the proper context, and refrain from attempting to twist it to suit your own evil ends, I think you should sashay over to SHZine and share it with the 'boys'.
Re: "Facts can be misleading, and especially so when they deal with quantities.
It is true that 'facts' can be subtly misrepresented or manipulated in order to deliberately mislead, but I shouldn't have to tell you that as you have been actively utilizing this tactic since commencement of the current exercise. 'Facts', when fully and properly articulated in their unadulterated form, are never misleading.
Re: "This mediation process encompasses between two and five thousand people." As far as I have seen, this particular mediation process involving you and me has 'encompassed' a grand total of three persons. It may also be accurate to state that the number of persons participating in the overall mediation procedures at Wikipedia at any given time 'encompasses' between two and five thousand people. I wouldn't know the precise statistics on that. Your statement "This mediation process encompasses between two and five thousand people" has been carefully crafted by you to be deliberately vague, and thereby, deliberately misleading. This is a perfect example of what I was referrring to when I said "It is true that 'facts' can be subtly misrepresented or manipulated in order to deliberately mislead, but I shouldn't have to tell you that as you have been actively utilizing this tactic since commencement of the current exercise". As I said, "Facts', when fully and properly articulated in their unadulterated form, are never misleading".
Re: "Blasphemously misleading, but true." The words blaspheme and blasphemous, are, in common parlance, almost exclusively used in reference to God. Another definition of blasphemous is "impiously irreverent'. If you were intending to convey that you are 'impiously irreverent' pertinent to the truth and your deliberate manipulation of the facts, I would have to agree. You are "blasphemously misleading".
Re: "It is true that you listed members of bands, however, the average mind assumes this means more than two (if you decide to list only one band per person)." Will you please clarify this statement? I don't know where you are going with this. What exactly are you trying to say, and what is your point?
Re: "Remember, this is an excyclopedia, not a persuasive essay." I'm not familiar with the term 'excyclopedia'. If you were meaning to say that Wikipedia is an online encyclopedia, I would agree. Whether any document is persuasive or not is a matter of opinion and purely subjective judgment. I would venture that every article on Wikipedia is deliberately 'persuasive' in one way or another.
Re: "The goal is (correct me if I'm wrong) to tell the facts in a useful way." If by "useful" you mean to create a false impression through subtle misrepresentation and manipulation of the facts in order to acheve your own malevolent objectives, as you have, I would say no. A goal in life, and on Wikipedia, should be to always articulate the facts honestly, fairly and fully in order to present an accurate picture. It's not that hard. You should give it a try
Re: "Opinions are not facts, unless presented as opinions." It is a fact that one could share their opinion and then state "It is a fact that this is my opinion". Opinions can be factual, as in the following example. You have been actively attempting to harass and defame me. This is my opinion, but it is also a fact.
Re: "I don't claim to speak for all of the indefinable mass that is the Abbotsford scene". I agree with this statement. No, you don't.
Re: "I even reworded the original sentence to make it even more clear".
Here is your very first effort:
Keillor has gained notoreity in Abbotsford's music scene, most notably for his inclusive of members of many prominent musical groups (such as You Say Party! We Say Die!) on his "list," which is essentially a list of grievances, and for his posting on the SHZine Message Board. Pop-Punk group Fun 100 references him in the song "Hygiene Boy" (sometimes referred to as "Kenneth"), specifically in lines such as "You're tired of these people / everybody's on your list."
And here is your most recent effort:
Keillor has gained notoreity among some members of Abbotsford's music scene, through his interactions with them at the SHZine, as well as including members of You Say Party! We Say Die! and other bands on his "list," a composition that is described as (Kenneth, insert your description here). Pop-Punk group Fun 100 references him in the song "Hygiene Boy" (sometimes referred to as "Kenneth"), specifically in lines such as "You're tired of these people / everybody's on your list."
Both of these efforts are misleading. I will continue to refine my proposed compromise.
Re: "Aside from this reference to musicians and music enthusiast (although I do not deny that some of these people are just party idiots, I don't think nearly any o those have even heard of you)". I am pleasantly surprised at your candor in admitting that some of your associates are, as you put it, "party idiots". What catagory are you in? And don't worry. I will never lose any sleep over who does, or does not, know about me. I could care less.
Re: "the only problem you seem to have with my paragraph is the wording of one sentence." To the contrary, I have a problem with the entire 'paragraph'.
Re: "Why don't you propose a rewording?" I have and I'm in the process of refining it.
Re: "It would be much easier and efficient than the mass of text you wrote that has essentially summarised (although little was removed) the argument so far. JonnyChance 01:40, 16 June 2006 (UTC)"
It was necessary to articulate all the information that I have in order to reveal the true facts of my story and for the sake of the historical record.
Conclusion.
I believe the article, as currently posted, does not do justice to my music which is such a prominent part of my story. It is my intention to edit the article to make only a brief reference to my music at the beginning and then add the refined, final version of my proposed comprimise at the end in order to elaborate upon the music aspect.
Hereunder is my new draft. I have replaced the "short essay" portion with a link to a page on my website containing the lyrics to both 'Scum 100' and 'Hygiene Boy' and I have made an effort to conform with POV rules.
I plan the following edit to the original article:
"Kenneth Montgomery Keillor is a Canadian musical artist, writer and politician of Scottish descent who lives in Abbotsford, British Columbia, Canada.
Keillor works as an advocate, investigative analyst and counsellor. He was a Postmaster for the Canadian post office for eighteen years.
Keillor has written three books: Post Mortem (National Library of Canada ISBN 0968140602), Analysis and The Clawing Tree (National Library of Canada ISBN 0968140661) (his autobiography), and has written on numerous subjects.
Keillor is a born-again Christian. He espouses a right-wing philosophy with compassionate social values. He has thrice campaigned for the mayoralty of Abbotsford, BC, and sought election to the Legislative Assembly of British Columbia in the electoral district of Abbotsford-Clayburn as founder and president of, and candidate for, the Freedom Party of British Columbia. The Freedom Party is a provincial political party based on Christian principles whose official, published platform promotes honesty and integrity in government."
To be followed with:
Kenneth Montgomery Keillor has garnered notability for his music as a singer, rhythm guitarist, stage performer, recording artist and the composer of over 300 songs. His parents hosted the Aldergrove Beach Rock Festival in Aldergrove, BC in the 1960's, the first ever rock festival in Canada. Keillor has performed live at music venues such as the New Music West festival in Vancouver, BC and co-produced and published a CD entitled 'The Punks' of himself and other musical artists singing and performing ten of his own compositions. He continues to compose, record and publish his music up to the present. Keillor has earned notoriety for being the creator of the website www.thepunks.com which showcases not only his music, but also the three books he has written as well as controversial writings on numerous subjects. Keillor gained notoreity among some Abbotsford musicians, and others, through his interactions with them between the beginning of June 2004 until July 15, 2004 through the SHZine forum created and moderated by self-professed occultist Stu Hood. Keillor subsequently mentioned Stu Hood and and his associate Jason Nicholas, on his website www.thepunks.com. Keillor quoted an Abbotsford newspaper article on his website which stated that the Abbotsford police had shut down a residence occupied by Hood and Nicholas on grounds of frequently disturbing their neighbors with loud, all-night parties billed as 'concerts' and for operating a suspected drug house. Keillor happened across Stu Hood's forum SHZine by chance and posted a brief invitation for any interested parties to contribute to a forum called PunksZine that Keillor had just created". What followed Keillor’s initial post on SHZine was a virtually non-stop litany of personal attacks, insults, attempts at character assassination, theft and unauthorized reproduction and defamatory alterations of Keillor's copyrighted materials by various and sundry including the 'moderator' Stu Hood. Said attacks, harassment and threats of personal harm, have continued against Keillor until the present. Hood locked and has displayed the entire dialog on SHZine ever since and it should be read in it's entirety by anyone who wishes to know the full story It is posted on the SHZine forum here There are other libelous postings about Keillor on SHZine as well. As recently as June 13, 2006, Stu Hood posted the following message on his SHZine forum. Quote: "if anyone wants to see a page from the 'subscribers' sections, let me know.. and no i didnt pay the 20 doll hairs" unquote. It can be viewed on SHZine here in a thread posted by Stephen Jersak aka 'JonnyChance' of Abbotsford, BC. entitled 'Kenneth and wikipedia.org'. A copy of it is also available from Mr. Keillor. In it, Hood is advertising the fact that he has hacked into the paid subscribers’ 'Members Only Area' of Keillor’s website www.thepunks.com and is offering access to Keillor’s stolen, copyrighted material to anyone who wants it. Stephen Jersak aka ‘JonnyChance’ is an associate and promoter of Hood, Nicholas and the members of Abbotsford musical group Fun 100. Subsequent to Keillor’s participation in the SHZine forum in 2004, members of Fun 100 composed, recorded, promoted and now publicly perform a composition about Keillor entitled "Hygiene Boy"(sometimes referred to as "Kenneth", according to Jersak). Consequently, Keillor mentioned the members of Fun 100 in his writings and was inspired to compose the song 'Scum 100' which is now included in his catalogue of over 300 songs The lyrics to 'Scum 100' and 'Hygiene Boy' with a commentary by Keillor can be seen here.
Keillor gained further notoriety for adopting the following position pertinent to Abbotsford, BC, Canada as revealed in an email to someone from Abbotsford who recently wanted Keillor to join their band:
"Hi. I live in Abbotsford and thought I should be considerate enough to reply to your email. I am a rock singer/songwriter and rhythm guitarist. Your project sounds interesting and like something I would normally be enthusiastic about participating in. Unfortunately, I have encountered, and been abused by, so much slime in Abby that I have decided not to perform my music here. In addition, I have met enough arrogant idiots who fancy themselves musical artists, and more than enough sleazy party filth, to cause me to lose interest in musicians, music shows or anything else pertaining to music, or parties, in Abbotsford. Nothing personal"
(The titles of all of Ken’s songs to be inserted here.)
- Well it seems like this mediation process might finally be getting somewhere! In regard to your statement:
- "It is true that you listed members of bands, however, the average mind assumes this means more than two (if you decide to list only one band per person)." Will you please clarify this statement? I don't know where you are going with this. What exactly are you trying to say, and what is your point?
- My point was that it is true that you listed members of bands (two, to be precise), and I was admitting that it was misleading. When I read that sentence I assume that it's more than two bands. I was asking for help with a revision.
- I don't understand your comment at the beginning about Scum 100. You quote me and then say that the song "isn't necessarily against Fun 100." In my quote, I never used the word "against," instead using the term "references." Just pointing that out (although I did say against in another place, you already called me on that, and it, in my opinion, is in the past.
- It would also be nice if you could summarise your lengthy responses at the end or beginning of them, for the benefit of Computerjoe. JonnyChance 02:38, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
- I agree. Lengthy comments and comprimises make the mediation process hard. The fact this page is 69kb long is simply amazing. Can I also suggest you all asks for member advocates. Computerjoe's talk 12:12, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
Response of Kenneth Montgomery Keillor to the June 17/2006 Statement of Stephen Jersak aka JonnyChance
Thankyou for your "Congratulations" as posted on the mediation history page. I would like to congratulate you as well. I am confident this has been an educational and informative exercise for both of us. Likely moreso for you than me. This mediation process has been useful. Not only has it provided an opportunity to incorporate some important information into the article, but it has also provided me with the incentive and a forum to articulate many facts and details that people need to know about this story. It is valuable pertinent to clarification of the historical record. Beyond that, It has provided a draft for my next short story.
Can you tell me which bands Hood and Nicholas were active members of between the beginning of June and July 15/2004 and what independent, documented, verifiable evidence you can offer to support this claim? To help you "understand", in my previous post, I was, in fact, alluding to your earlier usage of the word "against". I was also pointing up the fact that you had once again slithered over to the SHZine forum in order to misquote and misrepresent my statement in your continual quest to harass and defame me and incite the 'crowd' against me. I also couldn't help but notice that some of the external pages I have provided links to in the course of this mediation have suddenly and mysteriously disappeared.
As aforementioned, I have now articulated much information into the record that was critically important to reveal the true story for present, and future, readers. Observing that this mediation is winding down, unless something unforeseen arises, I don't anticipate the need for additional lengthy responses. When you respond, I will post a proposed final draft for the article and request, and expect, your agreement. As soon as we have wrapped this up, we can move on to editing the 'Fun 100', and possibly other, articles.
- Hey, try WP:RD. Computerjoe's talk 17:36, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
- I can only assist when these deleted pages are on the Wikipedia. Computerjoe's talk 19:40, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
'Jonny'
The following has just been posted by seanlame (Sean Lang) under your new thread 'Kenneth and wikipedia.org' on the Shzine forum:
"Jun 16, 2006, 3:28pm, RadioDaze wrote: Heheheh I think you should tell us all where he lives ;)
He lives in Clayburn village, in a house with a big plaque at the front that says "KENNETH MONTGOMERY KEILLOR: INVESIGATIVE ANALYST, ADVOCATE" and some more self righteous bullshit"
I guess all I can say is that if any harm ever comes to my family and/or my property, you and this filth will be amongst the first to know about it.
- I don't know what to say to that. I do not advocate any of this. I do doubt that anything will happen other than some yelling (which I'm very sorry about), but for whatever part I had in causing it, I'm very sorry. These people feel like you've attacked them, just as you feel they've attacked you. I don't believe it's my fault, but I'd appreciate it if you'd forgive me for anything you may hold against me. "Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us" JonnyChance 04:25, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
I concede. You win Kenneth. I've already used up enough of my time on this debate. I wash my hands of it with the belief that if you put up a version of the article that doesn't comply to POV or any other standards set by wikipedia, someone will change it, as has been done in the past, and it doesn't have to be me. JonnyChance 06:23, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
Comments by others[edit]
While using the talk page of the article in question to solve a dispute is encouraged to involve a larger audience, feel free to discuss the case below if that is not possible. Other mediators are also encouraged to join in on the discussion as Wikipedia is based on consensus.
Discussion[edit]
The paragraph produced by JonnyChance which is in question in this mediation is malicious, defamatory and blatantly biased and does not merit inclusion in the article.
- Are you willing to comprimise. Also, I'd like Jonny to explain this edit. I can see misconduct after reading this forum. Computerjoe's talk 20:17, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
- I found it humourous that Kenneth is responding in a similar way he did on the SHZine thread, resorting to thinly veiled attacks ("so-called musicians" was found frequently in his response). Originally the purpose of the paragraph was to mention that he had been referenced in a song by a band that meets Wikipedia's criteria for notability. However, I saw that the question would arise of why they would write a song about this man, so I gave the back story, as well as the inclusion of a member of another notable band on the list. Was this malicious? Would it be malicious to mention that any other notable figure has been alluded to in a song by any other notable band (in both cases, the term notable is used loosely, but the individual and both bands in question have all been deemed notable after being nominated for deletion)? If, as I assume, it was Kenneth who began this section, I would like to thank you/him for finally responding to this discussion. I would also like to thanks him for bringing to my attention some wording in my paragraph that I would like to change, particularly "many bands" to "several bands." I'm also wondering about the best way of showing, or even whether it should be shown, the fact that "the list" is now subscribers only, because as it is now (at least, in the history of the page) it gets in the way of flow. JonnyChance 00:11, 13 June 2006 (UTC)